I can relate to that being annoying. I’m not sure where this comes from, but I’d like to address it. I think this could be a mis-perception on your part, or a mis-projection on my part, or maybe a little of both.
Its a misconception on your part. The context of the comment was GSC audience, not PLAF. Your answer is about PLAF.
Once again, if all these people support Saint Vic and PLAF, where are they? It's easy enough to get an account, log in, and post. But what do we have? Crickets and tumbleweeds.
You can claim anything about a group that's silent. You claim they want to separate PLAF from the ministry, I could claim the believed in the "pure evil" Saint Vic. Without proof one claim is just as valid as the other.
Quote
There are only SOME things that I know better than anybody else, BECAUSE I’ve had my face in the collaterals for the past 20 years (after a break for 10 years) with zero TWI interference.So some things I definitely have a one-up on.
I do NOT know it all; not even close.
As far as PLAF goes: you remember when Saint Vic suggested we read only the bible and the PLAF materials for a while. Well, I've done that. Also aiding me is a near photographic memory. I read something, I'm usually pretty good about remembering it word for word. That's why you see me quote PLAF and the bible in my arguments to you.
So, if PLAF is such a big part of your life, why don't you ever refer to it or the bible in your responses?
The "pure evil model" is an invention of Mike. Its purpose is to generate an "us against them" scenario. Lots and lots of people have come to GSC and acknowledged that, along with the bad, they also had some good experiences and met some genuinely good people. I am one of them. None of that excuses or justifies the other side of the story.
You beat me to saying this, Waysider.
Life is not "pure evil" just as nothing is "pure good."
But just as having, say, a potato that is gnawed by slugs that have eaten it, or a piece of fruit that has been dropped and bruised - once you cut away the damaged areas, there's really very little that's usable left. Better to and get some new, undamaged, potatoes or fruit.
The "good bits" relating to TWI in any event are mostly the lower-level people (not any writings), some of which people, I am the first to agree, are passionate, enthusiastic, and awesome. But that is because they love God - and not because they love PFAL.
The "pure evil model" is an invention of Mike. Its purpose is to generate an "us against them" scenario. Lots and lots of people have come to GSC and acknowledged that, along with the bad, they also had some good experiences and met some genuinely good people. I am one of them.None of that excuses or justifies the other side of the story.
"I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out."- me, many times.
Life is not "pure evil" just as nothing is "pure good."
But just as having, say, a potato that is gnawed by slugs that have eaten it, or a piece of fruit that has been dropped and bruised - once you cut away the damaged areas, there's really very little that's usable left. Better to and get some new, undamaged, potatoes or fruit.
The "good bits" relating to TWI in any event are mostly the lower-level people (not any writings), some of which people, I am the first to agree, are passionate, enthusiastic, and awesome. But that is because they love God - and not because they love PFAL.
And if it wasn't for a handful of loving Christians who were already doing the things of God when vpw showed up and recruited them- blunting their mission- we wouldn't think there were any loving people in twi's history at all.
Mike........... all of your rebuttals, sidesteps, and tangents expose your credibility.
Many posters have strongly encouraged you to:
Stay away and write your position paper or "thesis"
Not allow postings to distract you
Giving you time and space
Encouraging your efforts
I went silent for one week......... so as not to contribute to your flailing excuses.
And now......you start again with sidetracks.
You got NOTHING man.............You've lost ALL CREDIBILITY as far as I'm concerned.
40 years of squat....down the hole......."honoring a fraudster's writings."
What you look at .........YOU BECOME (i.e.....Xeroxed fraud)
.
Ever wonder if he's trying to :"run the clock?" He's had more than 2 decades, all of which has had loads of excuses as to why he hasn't put together a coherent position paper. If he keeps this up, eventually he can stop due to old age, claim he can't do it since he's too old now, and never get around to it. It's the kind of thing someone might do if A) they thought they faced a task impossible for themself (but saying "this is what I believe and why" is not impossible because it's opinions and their reasons) of B) they thought that they had nothing at all, bur were able to conceal that from themself and others if it was never clearly communicated. Then, all the problems can be hand-waved as "poor communication" and "unreceptive audience." (Sound familiar?) It's something to consider.
BTW, there's a difference between "we disagreed" and "we didn't notice." In Mike's head-and some of his posts- Mike's said that we disagree because we don't notice what he's noticed. However, we've noticed them and there's usually sensible reasons to come to a different conclusion than Mike has come to. Naturally, the idea that there's sensible reasons to disagree doesn't enter Mike's theology. So, it doesn't enter his posts, and he sounds even MORE condescending as a result.
Mike, it was very intense, but it was also well-written. I thought it was a great read!
Thanks Grace.......
It was intense......and I really tried to stay focused. Having interaction with other posts adding to this documentation was elucidating on many levels, but I certainly had to refrain from answering every post. Running off on a hundred different tangents wouldn't have kept my message on track.
Looking back.......it was a confluence of events that helped me to decide to *put it out there* for others to see. And, with Charlene's book so hot off the press......I was inspired to "connect the dots" of what had happened after she'd resigned from the research department at headquarters.
The only changes I would make.......are around page 11.......when I closed it out too quickly. I should have stepped back for a few days......and put things on pause.
I was too emotional in the end.........broken to see how much my parents loved me and tried to help me out of this cult.
It was intense......and I really tried to stay focused. Having interaction with other posts adding to this documentation was elucidating on many levels, but I certainly had to refrain from answering every post. Running off on a hundred different tangents would have kept my message on off track.
There are only SOME things that I know better than anybody else, BECAUSE I’ve had my face in the collaterals for the past 20 years (after a break for 10 years) with zero TWI interference.So some things I definitely have a one-up on.
I do NOT know it all; not even close.
Let's make it easy.
Nike, give us ONE THING that you know better than anybody else. ONE THING from the collaterals that you know and apply better than anyone here. ONE THING that works.
Note: from the collaterals. So that means you aren't referring to the Bible or quoting verses, since elsewhere you've disavowed the Bible as anything other than "background." Be sure also that you aren't plagiarising other people's work.
ONE THING. Quote one paragraph or sentence, one pronouncement of VPW. Then, show how it applies. How YOU have benefitted from it.
Which would further re-enforce my suspicions there's more to this then we're being told.
From Mike's veiwpoint, I know who the "them" is (GSC), but who's the "us" he's trying to create?
That's ANYBODY. See, Mike's not even totally on-board with the "vpw taught how to understand the Bible better than anyone and God spoke to him" Kool-Aid drinkers because he's too extreme for even them. They'll welcome him around, but they disagree fundamentally on what pfal IS. So, Mike's STILL trying to get a second person to join his church, with the long-term goal of enough people to get a good checker-game going.
Nike, give us ONE THING that you know better than anybody else. ONE THING from the collaterals that you know and apply better than anyone here. ONE THING that works.
Note: from the collaterals. So that means you aren't referring to the Bible or quoting verses, since elsewhere you've disavowed the Bible as anything other than "background." Be sure also that you aren't plagiarising other people's work.
ONE THING. Quote one paragraph or sentence, one pronouncement of VPW. Then, show how it applies. How YOU have benefitted from it.
I'm quoting this post mostly so it can't so easily get lost to me. This post brings up good points.
Please notice that it points to the practical application side, the side I admitted to having less discipline for than the man I know to be, the side that I left GreaseSpot 10 years ago to explore more thoroughly.
Living it, I've been doing, and on an exploratory basis. I have NOT, however, been thinking about it from a logical or expository basis. The kind of explanation you ask for here, I am not well prepared to deliver on. I will now think on it much.
In my personal life I have not done much witnessing outside of the “living epistle” type for some years now. I’ve been exploring the freedom in Christ I have from institutional supervision. Your post got me thinking along relatively new lines. Hopefully I’ll be able to answer it better later.
I'm quoting this post mostly so it can't so easily get lost to me. This post brings up good points.
Please notice that it points to the practical application side, the side I admitted to having less discipline for than the man I know to be, the side that I left GreaseSpot 10 years ago to explore more thoroughly.
Living it, I've been doing, and on an exploratory basis. I have NOT, however, been thinking about it from a logical or expository basis. The kind of explanation you ask for here, I am not well prepared to deliver on. I will now think on it much.
In my personal life I have not done much witnessing outside of the “living epistle” type for some years now. I’ve been exploring the freedom in Christ I have from institutional supervision. Your post got me thinking along relatively new lines. Hopefully I’ll be able to answer it better later.
Well, I've done it, as I've pointed out, for 42 years. Four times as long as you have.
Out of that 42 years, I've spent a mere seven, maybe eight, in the ministry. As I told you, I continued to believe it when I got out.
I was in Way 1.0 from 1972 until the latter part of the seventies, then Way 2.0 from 1985 until 1986.
So spare me the you didn't give it a chance, or it was your believing speech.
As I said, PLAF failed me miserably, and as you can see, the ministry was out of my life more than it was in. So it was the ministry that failed me first, than PLAF.
I'm quoting this post mostly so it can't so easily get lost to me. This post brings up good points.
Please notice that it points to the practical application side, the side I admitted to having less discipline for than the man I know to be, the side that I left GreaseSpot 10 years ago to explore more thoroughly.
Living it, I've been doing, and on an exploratory basis. I have NOT, however, been thinking about it from a logical or expository basis. The kind of explanation you ask for here, I am not well prepared to deliver on. I will now think on it much.
In my personal life I have not done much witnessing outside of the “living epistle” type for some years now. I’ve been exploring the freedom in Christ I have from institutional supervision. Your post got me thinking along relatively new lines. Hopefully I’ll be able to answer it better later.
That's a ridiculous answer, Nike. If something is good, and you believe it, you'll do it. Goodness me, if someone tells you a new store in town has opened and it's a great place to find your favorite Wotsit, you'd believe them enough to go and visit the store and find out how many Wotsits they have, what sizes, colors, etc. Simply, you believed the person who told you, took action on that, went and did. That's practical application.
Now you seem to be telling us that you don't do that with "God-breathed" PFAL materials. Wow, that is some recommendation. "PFAL is God-breathed, but I don't act on it." The implication, then, is that you don't believe it. Yet, you also say, "Living it..." One has to ask, Living what. then?
I know when I first read the epistles, there's a lot of practical information in that; I read them, thought about what was said, and decided to do it. Even on an "exploratory" basis, I found it worked. So I still do those things.
But you, you can't point to anything in PFAL that has had that profound effect on you? After all these many years of deep study? That is so sad.
Anyway, if anything does occur to you, I opened a thread just for you to post such practical insights. I'm sure you've seen it.
I'm quoting this post mostly so it can't so easily get lost to me. This post brings up good points.
Please notice that it points to the practical application side, the side I admitted to having less discipline for than the man I know to be, the side that I left GreaseSpot 10 years ago to explore more thoroughly.
Living it, I've been doing, and on an exploratory basis. I have NOT, however, been thinking about it from a logical or expository basis. The kind of explanation you ask for here, I am not well prepared to deliver on. I will now think on it much.
In my personal life I have not done much witnessing outside of the “living epistle” type for some years now. I’ve been exploring the freedom in Christ I have from institutional supervision. Your post got me thinking along relatively new lines. Hopefully I’ll be able to answer it better later.
Boy, does this bring flashbacks.
Once in Way 1.0, I wanted to write a story about a person who becomes a "super-conquerer". So I approached an Advanced Class grad I knew and asked him,"How does one become a super-conquerer?" The best answer he could give was a shoulder shrug.
In Way 2.0, after many, many years of applying PLAF and ABSing for a year, I approached my branch leader and asked why I wasn't making any progress.
"You need a job making $20 an hour," he said.
"Where do you get those?" I asked.
"Go to your twig leader for the answer."
So, next twig, I approached the twig leader. The answer he gave me: "I don't know."
One has to ask: What happened to all the duloses with agope? Where's their pistis?
That's the way PLAF works: People are always around to make the promises. "This works 100% of the time, with mathematical accuracy and scientific percision." But when it fails, watch what happens.
Suddenly, people are either doubling down, refusing to discuss it, or demanding you believe the way they do.
The problem: indoctrination without experience. They've oidaed PLAF but never epiginoskoed it. Or even ginoskoed it for that matter.
That's a ridiculous answer, Nike. If something is good, and you believe it, you'll do it. Goodness me, if someone tells you a new store in town has opened and it's a great place to find your favorite Wotsit, you'd believe them enough to go and visit the store and find out how many Wotsits they have, what sizes, colors, etc. Simply, you believed the person who told you, took action on that, went and did. That's practical application.
Now you seem to be telling us that you don't do that with "God-breathed" PFAL materials. Wow, that is some recommendation. "PFAL is God-breathed, but I don't act on it." The implication, then, is that you don't believe it. Yet, you also say, "Living it..." One has to ask, Living what. then?
I know when I first read the epistles, there's a lot of practical information in that; I read them, thought about what was said, and decided to do it. Even on an "exploratory" basis, I found it worked. So I still do those things.
But you, you can't point to anything in PFAL that has had that profound effect on you? After all these many years of deep study? That is so sad.
Anyway, if anything does occur to you, I opened a thread just for you to post such practical insights. I'm sure you've seen it.
Here for your re-reading is the core of my answer:
"...the practical application side, the side I admitted to having less discipline for than the man I know to be, the side that I left GreaseSpot 10 years ago to explore more thoroughly.
Living it, I've been doing, and on an exploratory basis. I have NOT, however, been thinking about it from a logical or expository basis. The kind of explanation you ask for here, I am not well prepared to deliver on. I will now think on it much.
***
I saw your deja vu thread. Did you realize that this thread we are on now was started the same way?
Is that a standard ploy? Instead of dealing with the points of discussion you want to single me out for derision? When posters start resorting to distractions from what I post I think maybe I'm hitting a nerve or something.
I admitted to you that this is something I want to think about. Are you AT ALL interested in the topic of discussion or are you trying to hustle me around?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
63
252
68
130
Popular Days
Jan 25
114
Jan 6
58
Jan 9
51
Jan 3
45
Top Posters In This Topic
Rocky 63 posts
Mike 252 posts
waysider 68 posts
So_crates 130 posts
Popular Days
Jan 25 2018
114 posts
Jan 6 2018
58 posts
Jan 9 2018
51 posts
Jan 3 2018
45 posts
Popular Posts
DontWorryBeHappy
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."........Thomas Paine.
penworks
Here's an idea: we each drop out of this topic and go read a book.
DontWorryBeHappy
Can anyone tell me dictor paul's scriptural position on the word "Covfefe"? What is the true meaning of that word?? Mike's textual criticism, and use of the basic dictor "keys to research", is as made
Posted Images
Mike
Thank you. I looked there, briefly, bookmarked it, and will read it carefully after I get back from work.
Yikes! That thread looks pretty intense!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, I thought IOS was a great read, and would love a sequel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Its a misconception on your part. The context of the comment was GSC audience, not PLAF. Your answer is about PLAF.
Once again, if all these people support Saint Vic and PLAF, where are they? It's easy enough to get an account, log in, and post. But what do we have? Crickets and tumbleweeds.
You can claim anything about a group that's silent. You claim they want to separate PLAF from the ministry, I could claim the believed in the "pure evil" Saint Vic. Without proof one claim is just as valid as the other.
As far as PLAF goes: you remember when Saint Vic suggested we read only the bible and the PLAF materials for a while. Well, I've done that. Also aiding me is a near photographic memory. I read something, I'm usually pretty good about remembering it word for word. That's why you see me quote PLAF and the bible in my arguments to you.
So, if PLAF is such a big part of your life, why don't you ever refer to it or the bible in your responses?
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
You beat me to saying this, Waysider.
Life is not "pure evil" just as nothing is "pure good."
But just as having, say, a potato that is gnawed by slugs that have eaten it, or a piece of fruit that has been dropped and bruised - once you cut away the damaged areas, there's really very little that's usable left. Better to and get some new, undamaged, potatoes or fruit.
The "good bits" relating to TWI in any event are mostly the lower-level people (not any writings), some of which people, I am the first to agree, are passionate, enthusiastic, and awesome. But that is because they love God - and not because they love PFAL.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, it was very intense, but it was also well-written. I thought it was a great read!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
"I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out."- me, many times.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
And if it wasn't for a handful of loving Christians who were already doing the things of God when vpw showed up and recruited them- blunting their mission- we wouldn't think there were any loving people in twi's history at all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Ever wonder if he's trying to :"run the clock?" He's had more than 2 decades, all of which has had loads of excuses as to why he hasn't put together a coherent position paper. If he keeps this up, eventually he can stop due to old age, claim he can't do it since he's too old now, and never get around to it. It's the kind of thing someone might do if A) they thought they faced a task impossible for themself (but saying "this is what I believe and why" is not impossible because it's opinions and their reasons) of B) they thought that they had nothing at all, bur were able to conceal that from themself and others if it was never clearly communicated. Then, all the problems can be hand-waved as "poor communication" and "unreceptive audience." (Sound familiar?) It's something to consider.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
BTW, there's a difference between "we disagreed" and "we didn't notice." In Mike's head-and some of his posts- Mike's said that we disagree because we don't notice what he's noticed. However, we've noticed them and there's usually sensible reasons to come to a different conclusion than Mike has come to. Naturally, the idea that there's sensible reasons to disagree doesn't enter Mike's theology. So, it doesn't enter his posts, and he sounds even MORE condescending as a result.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Thanks Grace.......
It was intense......and I really tried to stay focused. Having interaction with other posts adding to this documentation was elucidating on many levels, but I certainly had to refrain from answering every post. Running off on a hundred different tangents wouldn't have kept my message on track.
Looking back.......it was a confluence of events that helped me to decide to *put it out there* for others to see. And, with Charlene's book so hot off the press......I was inspired to "connect the dots" of what had happened after she'd resigned from the research department at headquarters.
The only changes I would make.......are around page 11.......when I closed it out too quickly. I should have stepped back for a few days......and put things on pause.
I was too emotional in the end.........broken to see how much my parents loved me and tried to help me out of this cult.
.
Edited by skyridertypo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I think you meant as amended above, Sky.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Thanks Twinky......I was editing it when you posted.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Let's make it easy.
Nike, give us ONE THING that you know better than anybody else. ONE THING from the collaterals that you know and apply better than anyone here. ONE THING that works.
Note: from the collaterals. So that means you aren't referring to the Bible or quoting verses, since elsewhere you've disavowed the Bible as anything other than "background." Be sure also that you aren't plagiarising other people's work.
ONE THING. Quote one paragraph or sentence, one pronouncement of VPW. Then, show how it applies. How YOU have benefitted from it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
WW, I too am glad that I got in; I just wish I had left sooner than I did.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JayDee
Sound advice DWBH. I’m adhering to it, and will spend my time in other areas of GSC. This thread is going nowhere but in a 0.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Which would further re-enforce my suspicions there's more to this then we're being told.
From Mike's veiwpoint, I know who the "them" is (GSC), but who's the "us" he's trying to create?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
That's ANYBODY. See, Mike's not even totally on-board with the "vpw taught how to understand the Bible better than anyone and God spoke to him" Kool-Aid drinkers because he's too extreme for even them. They'll welcome him around, but they disagree fundamentally on what pfal IS. So, Mike's STILL trying to get a second person to join his church, with the long-term goal of enough people to get a good checker-game going.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I'm quoting this post mostly so it can't so easily get lost to me. This post brings up good points.
Please notice that it points to the practical application side, the side I admitted to having less discipline for than the man I know to be, the side that I left GreaseSpot 10 years ago to explore more thoroughly.
Living it, I've been doing, and on an exploratory basis. I have NOT, however, been thinking about it from a logical or expository basis. The kind of explanation you ask for here, I am not well prepared to deliver on. I will now think on it much.
In my personal life I have not done much witnessing outside of the “living epistle” type for some years now. I’ve been exploring the freedom in Christ I have from institutional supervision. Your post got me thinking along relatively new lines. Hopefully I’ll be able to answer it better later.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Well, I've done it, as I've pointed out, for 42 years. Four times as long as you have.
Out of that 42 years, I've spent a mere seven, maybe eight, in the ministry. As I told you, I continued to believe it when I got out.
I was in Way 1.0 from 1972 until the latter part of the seventies, then Way 2.0 from 1985 until 1986.
So spare me the you didn't give it a chance, or it was your believing speech.
As I said, PLAF failed me miserably, and as you can see, the ministry was out of my life more than it was in. So it was the ministry that failed me first, than PLAF.
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
That's a ridiculous answer, Nike. If something is good, and you believe it, you'll do it. Goodness me, if someone tells you a new store in town has opened and it's a great place to find your favorite Wotsit, you'd believe them enough to go and visit the store and find out how many Wotsits they have, what sizes, colors, etc. Simply, you believed the person who told you, took action on that, went and did. That's practical application.
Now you seem to be telling us that you don't do that with "God-breathed" PFAL materials. Wow, that is some recommendation. "PFAL is God-breathed, but I don't act on it." The implication, then, is that you don't believe it. Yet, you also say, "Living it..." One has to ask, Living what. then?
I know when I first read the epistles, there's a lot of practical information in that; I read them, thought about what was said, and decided to do it. Even on an "exploratory" basis, I found it worked. So I still do those things.
But you, you can't point to anything in PFAL that has had that profound effect on you? After all these many years of deep study? That is so sad.
Anyway, if anything does occur to you, I opened a thread just for you to post such practical insights. I'm sure you've seen it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Boy, does this bring flashbacks.
Once in Way 1.0, I wanted to write a story about a person who becomes a "super-conquerer". So I approached an Advanced Class grad I knew and asked him,"How does one become a super-conquerer?" The best answer he could give was a shoulder shrug.
In Way 2.0, after many, many years of applying PLAF and ABSing for a year, I approached my branch leader and asked why I wasn't making any progress.
"You need a job making $20 an hour," he said.
"Where do you get those?" I asked.
"Go to your twig leader for the answer."
So, next twig, I approached the twig leader. The answer he gave me: "I don't know."
One has to ask: What happened to all the duloses with agope? Where's their pistis?
That's the way PLAF works: People are always around to make the promises. "This works 100% of the time, with mathematical accuracy and scientific percision." But when it fails, watch what happens.
Suddenly, people are either doubling down, refusing to discuss it, or demanding you believe the way they do.
The problem: indoctrination without experience. They've oidaed PLAF but never epiginoskoed it. Or even ginoskoed it for that matter.
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
modcat5
Not singling anyone out, but if the shoe fits:
There is a specific rule against the following:
I was probably more guilty of this than anyone. Nonetheless, there you have it. It's happening here. It stops now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Here for your re-reading is the core of my answer:
"...the practical application side, the side I admitted to having less discipline for than the man I know to be, the side that I left GreaseSpot 10 years ago to explore more thoroughly.
Living it, I've been doing, and on an exploratory basis. I have NOT, however, been thinking about it from a logical or expository basis. The kind of explanation you ask for here, I am not well prepared to deliver on. I will now think on it much.
***
I saw your deja vu thread. Did you realize that this thread we are on now was started the same way?
Is that a standard ploy? Instead of dealing with the points of discussion you want to single me out for derision? When posters start resorting to distractions from what I post I think maybe I'm hitting a nerve or something.
I admitted to you that this is something I want to think about. Are you AT ALL interested in the topic of discussion or are you trying to hustle me around?
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Thank you for the move towards decorum.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.