This will go on for pages. Then he will eventually vanish. Later, he will claim he answered everybody and provided proof and nobody could dispute him. I don't think he even does it on purpose. He's not seeing the same reality most people are. So, where you see him stall for pages, he "remembers" he actually answered lots of questions. If you want to know what that's like, watch "Lord of the Rings-Fellowship of the RIng", and follow the ring in the scene where Bilbo is supposed to leave it behind as a gift for Frodo. I've shown that scene to people, prefacing it with "follow the ring in this scene", and periodically pausing and asking "Where is the ring now?" to make sure they realize Bilbo's not quite experiencing the reality he thinks he is, at that point.
Don't expect Mike to have learned anything, either. He once made a claim about the Bible. I refuted it verse by verse, and ended with a comment that he would probably make the same disproven claim again 6 months later. Sure enough, 6 months later, he did.
From your lips (or fingertips)...
1 hour ago, So_crates said:
So maybe we should all stop wasting our time with him.
A wholehearted YES from me.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
I have no idea what you even mean by a proof.
Show me something similarly deep that you feel is proved.
I'm confident Mike DOES know about making an argument to support his (specious) claim. Yet, he doesn't even respond.
That respect you want, your not so good about giving. The respectful thing to do is answer a question when asked.
Look, I dig it. My step father was a big muckity muck in the local school corporation, he was on the board, worked his way up from a teacher, to a principal, to working in the corporation offices. The biggest problem when we talked to him was he forgot we were adults (as my brother would say, he'd been a teacher too long), he thought he was still talking to students.
I don't know where you come from, but in my parts of the woods, you get respect by giving it. You had my respect, then you started dodging questions and telling people they needed a rounded education.
What you fail to understand is most of us here have done your program and its failed us miserably.
Please don't tell me about believing.
I first attended twig when I was 18 and I had no job, no car.
When I first got into the ministry, I would hitchhike home 12-miles, in all seasons, after twig. How much believing you think that took?
Then, after I moved into town, I had an hour an a half hike one way to twig. I would walk both ways. How much believing do you think that took?
Did God provide me the means to get a drivers license and a car? No.
I finally did get a car, long after I left the ministry and when I was well into my 40s.
Even after I left The Way, I blamed my self for things not working out. After years and years of trying to get the principles to work, I came to a conclusion: it wasn't me, it was the doctrine.
All this time, while I was faithfully trying to get PLAF to work, my life went by, my preductive years went by.
All that believing and what do I have to show for it?
So, if I'm a hard sell, now you know why.
I have had similar experiences and have felt the same way you describe, and I've known other close friends to feel the same.
The areas that DID resonate with me from PFAL were God being all light and no darkness, God's extreme ability and willingness to forgive, that death was unconsciousness and was against God's will..... I guess I was a disgruntled Catholic philosopher.
In material abundance issues I was pretty much a hippie and didn’t try hard. I’ve since come to believe that we were not all that good at reaching the state of perfect pure believing with zero doubt. I’ve also thought that what we tried to apply the law of believing toward was not fully matured. I see that law as accurately referring to spiritual things, but only approximate for material things. I’m still working on some details.
I'm confident Mike DOES know about making an argument to support his (specious) claim. Yet, he doesn't even respond.
He's just toying with GSC readers.
Not so, Rocky. Not toying, but I'm also not allowing you to toy with me. If you want to demand a certain format and length for my proof, go ahead. I will refuse such demands. But conversation allows me to build my argument. I never said it was brief or simple.
A simple, straight forward answer would suffice....You should be able to do that if you know your stuff like you say you do.
Ok.
PFAL is the best explanation of the best Loving God and His Son Jesus Christ that I have come across after several search phases in my life. As such, it's the only God I can live and die for.
Having earned credibility for me in the above categories, PFAL says of itself that it is God-breathed many times. I have documented 22 of them here.
The ancient scriptures are void of authority, and there is a great NEED for us to have a God-breathed document.
There are no other viable candidates for being God-breathed in the world today.
One of the most often stated arguments thrown at me is that "VPW is turning over in his grave. He never claimed it was God-breathed." Then I bring out my 22 "Thus saith the Lord" statements he made in the class and those who give me that argument lose a lot of credibility with me. I've seen OODLES of things that grads here have either forgotten from the class, or that they never got in the first place.
If you want to prove that PFAL is God-breathed to yourself, come back to PFAL and PFAL only (no TWI bunk) and see it's purity. See the good loving God that emerges from it.
***
I was not toying in any way before. I am genuinely interested in proofs in general. I want to know if you have ever seen a proof, and if so what? Very few things ever get proved like in Geometry. Most proofs are like courtroom proofs. It's a manipulation of reasonable doubt.
Not so, Rocky. Not toying, but I'm also not allowing you to toy with me. If you want to demand a certain format and length for my proof, go ahead. I will refuse such demands. But conversation allows me to build my argument. I never said it was brief or simple.
I never asked you for proof. I don't believe you (one) can prove or necessarily disprove that any of Wierwille's religious writings were God-breathed.
Had you not been toying with us, you wouldn't have had to suggest it. But you should be able to support your claims without evasiveness or passive-aggressive behavior if you want to be taken seriously.
Perhaps you don't know what I mean by making an argument? Let me provide some direction where you can get some insight on that subject.
Do you know any lawyers? Have you ever been involved in any litigation (even for a speeding ticket)?
If you want to contest the ticket (or whatever claim is made against you), you have to provide support showing either that you didn't do it or if you did, there was some lawful justification.
You have made claims... that PFLAP and Wierwille authored collateral written materials are God-breathed. You have not supported said claims.
"Most material you learn in college is or has been debated by someone, somewhere, at some time. Even when the material you read or hear is presented as simple “fact,” it may actually be one person’s interpretation of a set of information. Instructors may call on you to examine that interpretation and defend it, refute it, or offer some new view of your own. In writing assignments, you will almost always need to do more than just summarize information that you have gathered or regurgitate facts that have been discussed in class. You will need to develop a point of view on or interpretation of that material and provide evidence for your position."
"If you think that “fact,” not argument, rules intelligent thinking, consider an example. For nearly 2000 years, educated people in many Western cultures believed that bloodletting—deliberately causing a sick person to lose blood—was the most effective treatment for a variety of illnesses. The “fact” that bloodletting is beneficial to human health was not widely questioned until the 1800’s, and some physicians continued to recommend bloodletting as late as the 1920’s. We have come to accept a different set of “facts” now because some people began to doubt the effectiveness of bloodletting; these people argued against it and provided convincing evidence. Human knowledge grows out of such differences of opinion, and scholars like your instructors spend their lives engaged in debate over what may be counted as “true,” “real,” or “right” in their fields. In their courses, they want you to engage in similar kinds of critical thinking and debate."
"What is an argument? In academic writing, an argument is usually a main idea, often called a “claim” or “thesis statement,” backed up with evidence that supports the idea. In the majority of college papers, you will need to make some sort of claim and use evidence to support it, and your ability to do this well will separate your papers from those of students who see assignments as mere accumulations of fact and detail. In other words, gone are the happy days of being given a “topic” about which you can write anything. It is time to stake out a position and prove why it is a good position for a thinking person to hold. See our handout on thesis statements."
I believe it is disingenuous of you to demand anyone here set forth an acceptable format for proof before you proceed with making an argument.
PFAL is the best explanation of the best Loving God and His Son Jesus Christ that I have come across after several search phases in my life. As such, it's the only God I can live and die for.
Having earned credibility for me in the above categories, PFAL says of itself that it is God-breathed many times. I have documented 22 of them here.
The above statements look to me like the closest you've come to making an argument to support your claims.
The ancient scriptures are void of authority, and there is a great NEED for us to have a God-breathed document.
There are no other viable candidates for being God-breathed in the world today.
Those two sentences are also claims in need of support before they can reasonably be taken seriously.
One of the most often stated arguments thrown at me is that "VPW is turning over in his grave. He never claimed it was God-breathed." Then I bring out my 22 "Thus saith the Lord" statements he made in the class and those who give me that argument lose a lot of credibility with me. I've seen OODLES of things that grads here have either forgotten from the class, or that they never got in the first place.
If you want to prove that PFAL is God-breathed to yourself, come back to PFAL and PFAL only (no TWI bunk) and see it's purity. See the good loving God that emerges from it.
I'm not sure anyone here but you is interested in proving that PFLAP is God-breathed. Perhaps you are trying to convince lurkers? I'm not sure what it would take to convince any given individual. I do know that most of us fell under the influence of a charlatan when we were young adults and didn't know how to see through Dictor's duplicity. BUT, you have every right to your view that "those who give me that argument lose a lot of credibility with me." Stated that way, one cannot reasonably counter argue.
I can tell you that I do not agree with your viewpoint. But I finally can say I respect something you've written. However, IF your intent is to convince lurkers, I'd suggest you carry your own weight here, click the paypal button and donate to support the cost of keeping GSC up and running.
***
I was not toying in any way before. I am genuinely interested in proofs in general. I want to know if you have ever seen a proof, and if so what? Very few things ever get proved like in Geometry. Most proofs are like courtroom proofs. It's a manipulation of reasonable doubt.
Granted... sorta. In courtrooms, it can be possible to prove something, in some cases.
Put yourself in my shoes. How would you deal with several people breathing several different styles of wrath at YOU? One of the ways I deal with it is I ignore it.
I also sometimes use humor.
Maybe you who feel toyed with could grow a sense of humor, or at least try using it.
I thought your whole post and post before that were fair and appreciated. We found something we can work with.
BTW, it was So_crates, and not you who demanded a proof. I had no idea what kind he meant. He mentioned Geometry.
I'd love to fill in the gaps to my extremely abbreviated "proof process" that you commented on and accepted…. Sorta.
Time is not as abundant for me as it was 10 years ago, and my eyes also limit me at times. I can only read with one eye now, though surgery may fix that.
I had posted about 10 years ago the proof process that worked for me when I had a lot more energy. Finding those files is difficult right now because I need to learn the newer search engines to find where I posted my gradual journey ending up in 1998 believing that PFAL was the end of my search.
The Win10 search engine seems to not find anything inside .htm files and .mht files. I’m currently asking computer geek friends how the latest search engines work so I can find my posts on proving PFAL to myself. I did 5000 posts back then. I have copies of all my posts that were deleted here.
Are you listening So_crates? Eventually I’ll find my “proof” for you. The rainy season is just starting here, and I’ll have a little more time then.
Put yourself in my shoes. How would you deal with several people breathing several different styles of wrath at YOU? One of the ways I deal with it is I ignore it.
I also sometimes use humor.
Maybe you who feel toyed with could grow a sense of humor, or at least try using it.
Are you suggesting anyone owes you something, like kinder, gentler treatment? What do you expect, given that you come here to what you know is "hostile territory?"
Interesting thread So_crates ! Is PFAL god-breathed?
I believe wierwille very subtly suggested just that in the PFAL book. On page 83 of the PFAL book in the chapter “That Man May Be Perfect” wierwille states:
“…Let’s see this from John 5:39. “Search the Scriptures…” It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille’s writings or the writings of a denomination. No it says, “Search the scriptures…” because all Scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.”
wierwille makes several insinuations here. First off, he suggests that not ALL that wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; that implies SOME of it is…secondly wierwille is not as generous with conferring the God-breathed status on others. For example - he does NOT say “not all what Calvin said was necessarily God-breathed, nor all that Luther said…& etc.” Rather he simply states “not what Calvin said, nor Luther…”which suggests that none of their writings are God-breathed whereas at least some of wierwille’s writings are God-breathed.
Another treacherous aspect of wierwille’s statement is the lack of specificity…WHAT parts of his writings ARE God-breathed? Perhaps it might have helped if he issued a red letter edition of the PFAL books – like Bibles with the words of Christ in red…This way when students needed a shot of the god-breathed wierwille – they could just go their red letter edition of a PFAL book and find exactly the passage of wierwille that was god-breathed.
Now let’s see what a little wierwille-style-vagary does to II Timothy 3:16 using the NIV:
Not all of Scripture is God-breathed but what part is God-breathed – is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...
Naw…I don’t like it…I’m really gonna have to apply myself to find the god-breathed stuff.
If I'm not mistaken, Christ's comments in John 5:39 was a reference to the Torah(1st 5 books of Moses) and the old testament Scriptures written after the Torah. The Gospels and Epistles weren't written at the time Christ made those statements. It's been so long since I took PFAL or read anything related to PFAL, but I don't recall VPW mentioning that fact in PFAL.
I have had similar experiences and have felt the same way you describe, and I've known other close friends to feel the same.
The areas that DID resonate with me from PFAL were God being all light and no darkness, God's extreme ability and willingness to forgive, that death was unconsciousness and was against God's will..... I guess I was a disgruntled Catholic philosopher.
In material abundance issues I was pretty much a hippie and didn’t try hard. I’ve since come to believe that we were not all that good at reaching the state of perfect pure believing with zero doubt. I’ve also thought that what we tried to apply the law of believing toward was not fully matured. I see that law as accurately referring to spiritual things, but only approximate for material things. I’m still working on some details.
You are of course aware that this means you're confident that the law of believing works consistently- but only in the things that can't be shown, measured, or traced to actual operation of a physical law of believing, and where there would actually be space to show something, you're admitting you can't. Not only does that dovetail with the view you've got squat, but it contradicts all those times vpw talked a good game like it was easy to believe for all sorts of physical things like the unbelievers did SUCCESSFULLY all the time.
Not so, Rocky. Not toying, but I'm also not allowing you to toy with me. If you want to demand a certain format and length for my proof, go ahead. I will refuse such demands. But conversation allows me to build my argument. I never said it was brief or simple.
It also allows you to fill pages without substance, claim you have substance, fill the pages, then later claim you provided the substance in those pages. You pulled that with your claims of "proving" pfal was god-breathed before. Want to find you claiming you did it? I'm sure you can. Finding you doing it would be a lot harder....
PFAL is the best explanation of the best Loving God and His Son Jesus Christ that I have come across after several search phases in my life. As such, it's the only God I can live and die for.
Having earned credibility for me in the above categories, PFAL says of itself that it is God-breathed many times. I have documented 22 of them here.
The ancient scriptures are void of authority, and there is a great NEED for us to have a God-breathed document.
There are no other viable candidates for being God-breathed in the world today.
One of the most often stated arguments thrown at me is that "VPW is turning over in his grave. He never claimed it was God-breathed." Then I bring out my 22 "Thus saith the Lord" statements he made in the class and those who give me that argument lose a lot of credibility with me. I've seen OODLES of things that grads here have either forgotten from the class, or that they never got in the first place.
If you want to prove that PFAL is God-breathed to yourself, come back to PFAL and PFAL only (no TWI bunk) and see it's purity. See the good loving God that emerges from it.
***
I was not toying in any way before. I am genuinely interested in proofs in general. I want to know if you have ever seen a proof, and if so what? Very few things ever get proved like in Geometry. Most proofs are like courtroom proofs. It's a manipulation of reasonable doubt.
7 hours ago, Mike said:
Another point on “toying.”
Put yourself in my shoes. How would you deal with several people breathing several different styles of wrath at YOU? One of the ways I deal with it is I ignore it.
I also sometimes use humor.
Maybe you who feel toyed with could grow a sense of humor, or at least try using it.
7 hours ago, Mike said:
Thank you, Rocky.
I thought your whole post and post before that were fair and appreciated. We found something we can work with.
BTW, it was So_crates, and not you who demanded a proof. I had no idea what kind he meant. He mentioned Geometry.
I'd love to fill in the gaps to my extremely abbreviated "proof process" that you commented on and accepted…. Sorta.
Time is not as abundant for me as it was 10 years ago, and my eyes also limit me at times. I can only read with one eye now, though surgery may fix that.
I had posted about 10 years ago the proof process that worked for me when I had a lot more energy. Finding those files is difficult right now because I need to learn the newer search engines to find where I posted my gradual journey ending up in 1998 believing that PFAL was the end of my search.
The Win10 search engine seems to not find anything inside .htm files and .mht files. I’m currently asking computer geek friends how the latest search engines work so I can find my posts on proving PFAL to myself. I did 5000 posts back then. I have copies of all my posts that were deleted here.
Are you listening So_crates? Eventually I’ll find my “proof” for you. The rainy season is just starting here, and I’ll have a little more time then.
Mike, in my opinion, these are some of your best posts of late – because it seems to me you are making an effort to be honest. I may totally disagree with someone on a certain point – but I can understand and respect their viewpoint if they walk me through their thinking process on how they got to that point…I think we all have taken interesting journeys through TWI and beyond.
I often think my belief system is like a Turducken we’ve had that a few times for the holidays - - mmmmm sumptuous …a blend of so many flavors and spices…I’m no chef - so if someone didn’t tell me how it was made I would not be able to deconstruct it to figure out how they came up with that…sort of like the riddle-wrapped-in-a-mystery-inside-an-enigma thing (Winston Churchill used that phrase to express his inability to predict what Russia would do during WWII)…
…But I’m speaking in reference to my own belief system…it’s a mix of many experiences, contradictions, emotions, etc.…and sometimes manifests itself in unpredictable ways…sometimes I am a mystery to myself - - where was I ?...oh yeah... being raised in a Christian home I believed in a Creator ever since I was a child…did a lot of searching like you did…got involved with TWI for 12 years - thought my searching was over…”the journey” was complete…
but experiences proved my “odyssey” was incomplete with TWI being a long and arduous detour…my journey continues…I still believe there is a Creator…I enjoy reading the Bible…I believe all scripture is God-breathed – but what does that mean? I believe that it is unique documents written by imperfect people inspired by the Creator; my definition may vary quite differently than other folks' definition of God-breathed…when it comes to Bible study I look for the interpretation and application of scripture that stay true to the text and natural sense of the passage. That has bearing on this thread, by the way – in that one of the reasons I left TWI was that wierwille through semantic shenanigans had a tendency to stray from what was actually written and the natural sense of scripture.
I cannot prove there is a Creator…I cannot prove that scripture is God-breathed…I cannot prove that my interpretation of scripture is correct…but I can say unequivocally that for me the scriptures resonate with the heart of the Creator.
sorry to go on for so long about me...just trying to give an example of walking someone through my thought process on God-breathed...have a nice day
PFAL is the best explanation of the best Loving God and His Son Jesus Christ that I have come across after several search phases in my life. As such, it's the only God I can live and die for.
That's a testimonal, not any kind of "proof" or "argument." I'm sure everyone else noticed that-I'm pointing it out to you. If you were wondering why this doesn't convince, well, bald, unsupported claims should not be expected to do that.
Having earned credibility for me in the above categories, PFAL says of itself that it is God-breathed many times. I have documented 22 of them here.
You used to say you had that list lots of times.
The ancient scriptures are void of authority, and there is a great NEED for us to have a God-breathed document.
There are no other viable candidates for being God-breathed in the world today.\
3 more unsupported statements. If you want to convince anybody you have anything, you'll need to come up with some support for your bald claims. But we've been saying that for decades and it hasn't arrived yet. That's the main reason you get so much skepticism. Keep promising a steak and delivering only sizzle, and you won't get customers in your restaurant.
One of the most often stated arguments thrown at me is that "VPW is turning over in his grave. He never claimed it was God-breathed." Then I bring out my 22 "Thus saith the Lord" statements he made in the class and those who give me that argument lose a lot of credibility with me. I've seen OODLES of things that grads here have either forgotten from the class, or that they never got in the first place.
If you want to prove that PFAL is God-breathed to yourself, come back to PFAL and PFAL only (no TWI bunk) and see it's purity. See the good loving God that emerges from it.
Again, claims you have something without providing it, then saying the only REAL proof is to ASSUME you're right and spend months or years doing it your way in the hopes that you're right despite no evidence supporting it whatsoever. Still finding it hard to find converts? Still making the same mistakes.
8 hours ago, Mike said:
***
I was not toying in any way before. I am genuinely interested in proofs in general. I want to know if you have ever seen a proof, and if so what? Very few things ever get proved like in Geometry. Most proofs are like courtroom proofs. It's a manipulation of reasonable doubt.
I've got a question for all of y'all "God breathed" professors. Since we are talking various degrees of comparison figures like simile, metaphor, hypocatastatis.
Sometimes when we wake up in the morning my spouse and I find ourselves with some severe halitosis. We refer to it as "moose breath" for some reason - I doubt either of us are actually familiar with that.
I've got a question for all of y'all "God breathed" professors. Since we are talking various degrees of comparison figures like simile, metaphor, hypocatastatis.
Sometimes when we wake up in the morning my spouse and I find ourselves with some severe halitosis. We refer to it as "moose breath" for some reason - I doubt either of us are actually familiar with that.
Does God ever have bad breath?
now let's think this through - for starters, I wonder what mouthwash he would use.
BTW, it was So_crates, and not you who demanded a proof. I had no idea what kind he meant. He mentioned Geometry.
My, my, my, aren't you choice?
You complain people are demanding proof from you, yet you feel no compunction about making demands on them:
You demand our respect, without being willing to give respect. As I said respect is answering questions, not wasting people's time, and not belittling others (Remember: You need to get a more rounded education?) While that may work in a classroom, we're all adults here. I'm probably close to your age. Where you may have been around the block, I've been across the street. So you want respect, start giving it.
Your the one that demanded I drop out of the debate because you couldn't answer: If God owns everything and that makes it okay to steal others intellectual property, why would it be wrong to steal your PLAF book? (Thanks Twinky) So its okay for you to demand, but no one else, right?
You demand we buy into your claim PLAF is God breathe. When asked for proof you take us off into the weeds, discussing everything but what was asked.
When in debate you demand we accept your premises, but you refuse to look at ours.
You claim the only way to prove it is to do it. Well, I did it. For 43 years of my life I did it. It failed me miserably. So much for that premise.
So, before you complain about others demanding, maybe you should stop demanding yourself, huh?
my "thesis" is Scope, as opposed to Crest. He's a big picture guy as opposed to having reached His peak.
Excellent proposal , Chockfull…I’ve been stuck in a very linear thought process of scripture - - with all the records of generations, ornamental trappings of the temple, ceremonial procedures, the book of Numbers, genealogies, Young’s Analytical Concordance, teachings on the Red Thread…the best that I could come up with was Listerine.
I never asked you for proof. I don't believe you (one) can prove or necessarily disprove that any of Wierwille's religious writings were God-breathed.
Had you not been toying with us, you wouldn't have had to suggest it. But you should be able to support your claims without evasiveness or passive-aggressive behavior if you want to be taken seriously.
Perhaps you don't know what I mean by making an argument? Let me provide some direction where you can get some insight on that subject.
Do you know any lawyers? Have you ever been involved in any litigation (even for a speeding ticket)?
If you want to contest the ticket (or whatever claim is made against you), you have to provide support showing either that you didn't do it or if you did, there was some lawful justification.
You have made claims... that PFLAP and Wierwille authored collateral written materials are God-breathed. You have not supported said claims.
"Most material you learn in college is or has been debated by someone, somewhere, at some time. Even when the material you read or hear is presented as simple “fact,” it may actually be one person’s interpretation of a set of information. Instructors may call on you to examine that interpretation and defend it, refute it, or offer some new view of your own. In writing assignments, you will almost always need to do more than just summarize information that you have gathered or regurgitate facts that have been discussed in class. You will need to develop a point of view on or interpretation of that material and provide evidence for your position."
"If you think that “fact,” not argument, rules intelligent thinking, consider an example. For nearly 2000 years, educated people in many Western cultures believed that bloodletting—deliberately causing a sick person to lose blood—was the most effective treatment for a variety of illnesses. The “fact” that bloodletting is beneficial to human health was not widely questioned until the 1800’s, and some physicians continued to recommend bloodletting as late as the 1920’s. We have come to accept a different set of “facts” now because some people began to doubt the effectiveness of bloodletting; these people argued against it and provided convincing evidence. Human knowledge grows out of such differences of opinion, and scholars like your instructors spend their lives engaged in debate over what may be counted as “true,” “real,” or “right” in their fields. In their courses, they want you to engage in similar kinds of critical thinking and debate."
"What is an argument? In academic writing, an argument is usually a main idea, often called a “claim” or “thesis statement,” backed up with evidence that supports the idea. In the majority of college papers, you will need to make some sort of claim and use evidence to support it, and your ability to do this well will separate your papers from those of students who see assignments as mere accumulations of fact and detail. In other words, gone are the happy days of being given a “topic” about which you can write anything. It is time to stake out a position and prove why it is a good position for a thinking person to hold. See our handout on thesis statements."
I believe it is disingenuous of you to demand anyone here set forth an acceptable format for proof before you proceed with making an argument.
Something Wierwille should have known for his MST and THD which he failed to do. BTW, those documents belong to the institution and not the student.
Someone asked you for your proof in Who will write the book. Your response was to question whether or not you need to start another thread. Rather than wait for you to get around to it (which I doubt you ever will) I shortcutted the process.
I'm calling you out: You claim PLAF is God-breathe, prove it.
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DontWorryBeHappy
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."........Thomas Paine.
penworks
Here's an idea: we each drop out of this topic and go read a book.
DontWorryBeHappy
Can anyone tell me dictor paul's scriptural position on the word "Covfefe"? What is the true meaning of that word?? Mike's textual criticism, and use of the basic dictor "keys to research", is as made
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Rocky
From your lips (or fingertips)...
A wholehearted YES from me.
I'm confident Mike DOES know about making an argument to support his (specious) claim. Yet, he doesn't even respond.
He's just toying with GSC readers.
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Mike
I have had similar experiences and have felt the same way you describe, and I've known other close friends to feel the same.
The areas that DID resonate with me from PFAL were God being all light and no darkness, God's extreme ability and willingness to forgive, that death was unconsciousness and was against God's will..... I guess I was a disgruntled Catholic philosopher.
In material abundance issues I was pretty much a hippie and didn’t try hard. I’ve since come to believe that we were not all that good at reaching the state of perfect pure believing with zero doubt. I’ve also thought that what we tried to apply the law of believing toward was not fully matured. I see that law as accurately referring to spiritual things, but only approximate for material things. I’m still working on some details.
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Mike
Not so, Rocky. Not toying, but I'm also not allowing you to toy with me. If you want to demand a certain format and length for my proof, go ahead. I will refuse such demands. But conversation allows me to build my argument. I never said it was brief or simple.
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Mike
Ok.
PFAL is the best explanation of the best Loving God and His Son Jesus Christ that I have come across after several search phases in my life. As such, it's the only God I can live and die for.
Having earned credibility for me in the above categories, PFAL says of itself that it is God-breathed many times. I have documented 22 of them here.
The ancient scriptures are void of authority, and there is a great NEED for us to have a God-breathed document.
There are no other viable candidates for being God-breathed in the world today.
One of the most often stated arguments thrown at me is that "VPW is turning over in his grave. He never claimed it was God-breathed." Then I bring out my 22 "Thus saith the Lord" statements he made in the class and those who give me that argument lose a lot of credibility with me. I've seen OODLES of things that grads here have either forgotten from the class, or that they never got in the first place.
If you want to prove that PFAL is God-breathed to yourself, come back to PFAL and PFAL only (no TWI bunk) and see it's purity. See the good loving God that emerges from it.
***
I was not toying in any way before. I am genuinely interested in proofs in general. I want to know if you have ever seen a proof, and if so what? Very few things ever get proved like in Geometry. Most proofs are like courtroom proofs. It's a manipulation of reasonable doubt.
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Rocky
I never asked you for proof. I don't believe you (one) can prove or necessarily disprove that any of Wierwille's religious writings were God-breathed.
Had you not been toying with us, you wouldn't have had to suggest it. But you should be able to support your claims without evasiveness or passive-aggressive behavior if you want to be taken seriously.
Perhaps you don't know what I mean by making an argument? Let me provide some direction where you can get some insight on that subject.
Do you know any lawyers? Have you ever been involved in any litigation (even for a speeding ticket)?
If you want to contest the ticket (or whatever claim is made against you), you have to provide support showing either that you didn't do it or if you did, there was some lawful justification.
You have made claims... that PFLAP and Wierwille authored collateral written materials are God-breathed. You have not supported said claims.
From the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill,
"Most material you learn in college is or has been debated by someone, somewhere, at some time. Even when the material you read or hear is presented as simple “fact,” it may actually be one person’s interpretation of a set of information. Instructors may call on you to examine that interpretation and defend it, refute it, or offer some new view of your own. In writing assignments, you will almost always need to do more than just summarize information that you have gathered or regurgitate facts that have been discussed in class. You will need to develop a point of view on or interpretation of that material and provide evidence for your position."
"If you think that “fact,” not argument, rules intelligent thinking, consider an example. For nearly 2000 years, educated people in many Western cultures believed that bloodletting—deliberately causing a sick person to lose blood—was the most effective treatment for a variety of illnesses. The “fact” that bloodletting is beneficial to human health was not widely questioned until the 1800’s, and some physicians continued to recommend bloodletting as late as the 1920’s. We have come to accept a different set of “facts” now because some people began to doubt the effectiveness of bloodletting; these people argued against it and provided convincing evidence. Human knowledge grows out of such differences of opinion, and scholars like your instructors spend their lives engaged in debate over what may be counted as “true,” “real,” or “right” in their fields. In their courses, they want you to engage in similar kinds of critical thinking and debate."
"What is an argument? In academic writing, an argument is usually a main idea, often called a “claim” or “thesis statement,” backed up with evidence that supports the idea. In the majority of college papers, you will need to make some sort of claim and use evidence to support it, and your ability to do this well will separate your papers from those of students who see assignments as mere accumulations of fact and detail. In other words, gone are the happy days of being given a “topic” about which you can write anything. It is time to stake out a position and prove why it is a good position for a thinking person to hold. See our handout on thesis statements."
I believe it is disingenuous of you to demand anyone here set forth an acceptable format for proof before you proceed with making an argument.
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Rocky
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Mike
Another point on “toying.”
Put yourself in my shoes. How would you deal with several people breathing several different styles of wrath at YOU? One of the ways I deal with it is I ignore it.
I also sometimes use humor.
Maybe you who feel toyed with could grow a sense of humor, or at least try using it.
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Mike
Thank you, Rocky.
I thought your whole post and post before that were fair and appreciated. We found something we can work with.
BTW, it was So_crates, and not you who demanded a proof. I had no idea what kind he meant. He mentioned Geometry.
I'd love to fill in the gaps to my extremely abbreviated "proof process" that you commented on and accepted…. Sorta.
Time is not as abundant for me as it was 10 years ago, and my eyes also limit me at times. I can only read with one eye now, though surgery may fix that.
I had posted about 10 years ago the proof process that worked for me when I had a lot more energy. Finding those files is difficult right now because I need to learn the newer search engines to find where I posted my gradual journey ending up in 1998 believing that PFAL was the end of my search.
The Win10 search engine seems to not find anything inside .htm files and .mht files. I’m currently asking computer geek friends how the latest search engines work so I can find my posts on proving PFAL to myself. I did 5000 posts back then. I have copies of all my posts that were deleted here.
Are you listening So_crates? Eventually I’ll find my “proof” for you. The rainy season is just starting here, and I’ll have a little more time then.
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Rocky
Are you suggesting anyone owes you something, like kinder, gentler treatment? What do you expect, given that you come here to what you know is "hostile territory?"
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waysider
Well, you know what they say... The sty's the limit.
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skyrider
Mike.......as you keep striving for its purity, it shouldn't be long before you reach the state of Clear.
Oh sorry.............wrong cult.
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Infoabsorption
If I'm not mistaken, Christ's comments in John 5:39 was a reference to the Torah(1st 5 books of Moses) and the old testament Scriptures written after the Torah. The Gospels and Epistles weren't written at the time Christ made those statements. It's been so long since I took PFAL or read anything related to PFAL, but I don't recall VPW mentioning that fact in PFAL.
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WordWolf
You are of course aware that this means you're confident that the law of believing works consistently- but only in the things that can't be shown, measured, or traced to actual operation of a physical law of believing, and where there would actually be space to show something, you're admitting you can't. Not only does that dovetail with the view you've got squat, but it contradicts all those times vpw talked a good game like it was easy to believe for all sorts of physical things like the unbelievers did SUCCESSFULLY all the time.
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WordWolf
It also allows you to fill pages without substance, claim you have substance, fill the pages, then later claim you provided the substance in those pages. You pulled that with your claims of "proving" pfal was god-breathed before. Want to find you claiming you did it? I'm sure you can. Finding you doing it would be a lot harder....
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T-Bone
Mike, in my opinion, these are some of your best posts of late – because it seems to me you are making an effort to be honest. I may totally disagree with someone on a certain point – but I can understand and respect their viewpoint if they walk me through their thinking process on how they got to that point…I think we all have taken interesting journeys through TWI and beyond.
I often think my belief system is like a Turducken we’ve had that a few times for the holidays - - mmmmm sumptuous …a blend of so many flavors and spices…I’m no chef - so if someone didn’t tell me how it was made I would not be able to deconstruct it to figure out how they came up with that…sort of like the riddle-wrapped-in-a-mystery-inside-an-enigma thing (Winston Churchill used that phrase to express his inability to predict what Russia would do during WWII)…
…But I’m speaking in reference to my own belief system…it’s a mix of many experiences, contradictions, emotions, etc.…and sometimes manifests itself in unpredictable ways…sometimes I am a mystery to myself
- - where was I ?...oh yeah... being raised in a Christian home I believed in a Creator ever since I was a child…did a lot of searching like you did…got involved with TWI for 12 years - thought my searching was over…”the journey” was complete…
but experiences proved my “odyssey” was incomplete with TWI being a long and arduous detour…my journey continues…I still believe there is a Creator…I enjoy reading the Bible…I believe all scripture is God-breathed – but what does that mean? I believe that it is unique documents written by imperfect people inspired by the Creator; my definition may vary quite differently than other folks' definition of God-breathed…when it comes to Bible study I look for the interpretation and application of scripture that stay true to the text and natural sense of the passage. That has bearing on this thread, by the way – in that one of the reasons I left TWI was that wierwille through semantic shenanigans had a tendency to stray from what was actually written and the natural sense of scripture.
I cannot prove there is a Creator…I cannot prove that scripture is God-breathed…I cannot prove that my interpretation of scripture is correct…but I can say unequivocally that for me the scriptures resonate with the heart of the Creator.
sorry to go on for so long about me...just trying to give an example of walking someone through my thought process on God-breathed...have a nice day
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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WordWolf
Again, claims you have something without providing it, then saying the only REAL proof is to ASSUME you're right and spend months or years doing it your way in the hopes that you're right despite no evidence supporting it whatsoever. Still finding it hard to find converts? Still making the same mistakes.
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chockfull
I've got a question for all of y'all "God breathed" professors. Since we are talking various degrees of comparison figures like simile, metaphor, hypocatastatis.
Sometimes when we wake up in the morning my spouse and I find ourselves with some severe halitosis. We refer to it as "moose breath" for some reason - I doubt either of us are actually familiar with that.
Does God ever have bad breath?
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T-Bone
now let's think this through - for starters, I wonder what mouthwash he would use.
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chockfull
my "thesis" is Scope, as opposed to Crest. He's a big picture guy as opposed to having reached His peak.
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So_crates
My, my, my, aren't you choice?
You complain people are demanding proof from you, yet you feel no compunction about making demands on them:
You demand our respect, without being willing to give respect. As I said respect is answering questions, not wasting people's time, and not belittling others (Remember: You need to get a more rounded education?) While that may work in a classroom, we're all adults here. I'm probably close to your age. Where you may have been around the block, I've been across the street. So you want respect, start giving it.
Your the one that demanded I drop out of the debate because you couldn't answer: If God owns everything and that makes it okay to steal others intellectual property, why would it be wrong to steal your PLAF book? (Thanks Twinky) So its okay for you to demand, but no one else, right?
You demand we buy into your claim PLAF is God breathe. When asked for proof you take us off into the weeds, discussing everything but what was asked.
When in debate you demand we accept your premises, but you refuse to look at ours.
You claim the only way to prove it is to do it. Well, I did it. For 43 years of my life I did it. It failed me miserably. So much for that premise.
So, before you complain about others demanding, maybe you should stop demanding yourself, huh?
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T-Bone
Excellent proposal , Chockfull…I’ve been stuck in a very linear thought process of scripture - - with all the records of generations, ornamental trappings of the temple, ceremonial procedures, the book of Numbers, genealogies, Young’s Analytical Concordance, teachings on the Red Thread…the best that I could come up with was Listerine.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Something Wierwille should have known for his MST and THD which he failed to do. BTW, those documents belong to the institution and not the student.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes Mike, either prove it, or keep silent.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Poor Mikey. He probably is crying that everyone at GSC is a bully to him. He will say I am taking my marbles(PFAL and collaterals) home with me.
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