Have you considered asking him yourself? He's on Facebook and willingly connects for ex-way folks.
What a smashing idea Rocky
And in the spirit of your idea, next time you have a complaint about the ministry, why don't you take it up with them?
I've read many complaints about JAL here, why aren't they taking them to JAL?
Think of the bandwidth that be saved. Or is there one set of rules for me and another for everyone else?
What's that you say? They'll ignore the complaints or won't provide a straight answer.
Think maybe that's my expectation?
Why? Look at the ministry's history.
I remember Saint Vic in a teaching tape responding to claims he was partying with the ABS money. He ridiculed up one side and down the other. (Important life lesson: When people resort to ridicule your on to something). For all Saint Vic's ridicule, how'd that turn out?
Another individual said people shouldn't criticize how the ministry uses ABS because he attended BOT meeting were Uncle Harry would be literally crying, Lord, show me how to spend this money. Years later, how did that turn out?
So you can see why I'm hesitant about going to the horse's mouth.
I know JAL's side of it. Many years ago, two believers wanted me to get involved with JAL's group. In a letter to the believers he said he had an epithany and left. I just wonder: All the purges and he chose to stay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back?
And in the spirit of your idea, next time you have a complaint about the ministry, why don't you take it up with them?
I've read many complaints about JAL here, why aren't they taking them to JAL?
Think of the bandwidth that be saved. Or is there one set of rules for me and another for everyone else?
What's that you say? They'll ignore the complaints or won't provide a straight answer.
Think maybe that's my expectation?
Why? Look at the ministry's history.
I remember Saint Vic in a teaching tape responding to claims he was partying with the ABS money. He ridiculed up one side and down the other. (Important life lesson: When people resort to ridicule your on to something). For all Saint Vic's ridicule, how'd that turn out?
Another individual said people shouldn't criticize how the ministry uses ABS because he attended BOT meeting were Uncle Harry would be literally crying, Lord, show me how to spend this money. Years later, how did that turn out?
So you can see why I'm hesitant about going to the horse's mouth.
I know JAL's side of it. Many years ago, two believers wanted me to get involved with JAL's group. In a letter to the believers he said he had an epithany and left. I just wonder: All the purges and he chose to stay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back?
Well then... aren't you the cheerful one today.
Are you not familiar with the letter in 1986 signed by JAL, RD, Tom R and Sue P? That was 31 years ago now.
Sounds like you don't really know JAL's side of it.
Btw, your opening post for this thread was simple and succinct, "So, does anybody know the reason JAL left the vay?"
What you didn't say or even allude to was anything suggesting you wouldn't believe his answer if you asked him.
He didn't get purged, he left in the first mass exodus. Other than the already recorded history (rather than jumping down my throat, you're free and welcome to search the old threads in the About the Way forum), you actually could ask him yourself.
Btw, I'm not now and have not been associated with JAL's ministry since he left TWI. As far as I can recall, one time I attended a meeting when he came to Phoenix. I was seriously not impressed in a positive way then and still am not. However, he is civil with people on FB.
Are you not familiar with the letter in 1986 signed by JAL, RD, Tom R and Sue P? That was 31 years ago now.
Sounds like you don't really know JAL's side of it.
Btw, your opening post for this thread was simple and succinct, "So, does anybody know the reason JAL left the vay?"
What you didn't say or even allude to was anything suggesting you wouldn't believe his answer if you asked him.
He didn't get purged, he left in the first mass exodus. Other than the already recorded history (rather than jumping down my throat, you're free and welcome to search the old threads in the About the Way forum), you actually could ask him yourself.
Not jumping down your throat, just calling 'em as I see 'em. I've read some pretty vicious statements in this forum directed at JAL, oddly enough, I've never read one post saying "Take it up with JAL, he's on Facebook." So why the exception?
1986? Really? So why didn't you say so in the first place? Why be uncooperative? (Oh, and entering 1986 and JAL's full name into Google brings up a post by WordWolf dated September 26, 2015, the letter you mention was dated March 30, 1988--not in 1986 as you stated. It states he was fired for reasons undiclosed to him.).
However, the letter I read, it being some 20 years ago, so forgive me if I don't remember the date, said he started realizing how far off The Word the ministry had gotten (another way of saying he had an epithany) and either left or decided to leave (I don't remember which--again 20 years ago).
I guess you must have skimmed my post: I never said he was purged. I said:
All the purges and he chose to stay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back?
Neither do I have any association with JAL's organization, nor do I want association with any Way organization.
Not jumping down your throat, just calling 'em as I see 'em. I've read some pretty vicious statements in this forum directed at JAL, oddly enough, I've never read one post saying "Take it up with JAL, he's on Facebook." So why the exception?
1986? Really? So why didn't you say so in the first place? Why be uncooperative? (Oh, and entering 1986 and JAL's full name into Google brings up a post by WordWolf dated September 26, 2015, the letter you mention was dated March 30, 1988--not in 1986 as you stated. It states he was fired for reasons undiclosed to him.).
However, the letter I read, it being some 20 years ago, so forgive me if I don't remember the date, said he started realizing how far off The Word the ministry had gotten (another way of saying he had an epithany) and either left or decided to leave (I don't remember which--again 20 years ago).
I guess you must have skimmed my post: I never said he was purged. I said:
All the purges and he chose to stay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back?
Neither do I have any association with JAL's organization, nor do I want association with any Way organization.
"All the purges?" Those came AFTER the first exodus in 1986.
I don't get your tone.
Anyway, asking for conjecture at this point rather than checking GSC history... and jumping down my throat for directing you to where you can find the answers you seek seems weird.
"All the purges?" Those came AFTER the first exodus in 1986.
I don't get your tone.
Anyway, asking for conjecture at this point rather than checking GSC history... and jumping down my throat for directing you to where you can find the answers you seek seems weird.
Did you direct me to WordWolf's 2015 post? Or JAL's 1988 letter within that post?
No, instead you snarkily responded, Ask JAL, he's on Facebook. As you can see, I know how to use Google. If I wanted to ask JAL, I would have.
Nobody's jumping down your throat: Don't mistake assertiveness for aggression: There's no hostility intended.
No, what's weird is when someone can make vicious statements against JAL and they're not told to look him up on Facebook, then someone else asks a straight question and then gets a snarky response.
As far as ministry history goes, I'm interested in two periods:
1971-1979
1985-86
Those are relevent to me because those were the years I was in. Everything else is intellectual exercise.
Sherlock Holmes once said your mind is like an attic, why fill it with a lot of useless clutter?
Along those lines, Henry Ford once brought a defamation suit against someone who said he was ignorant. The defense lawyer asked Ford a wide assortment of questions (you know, when was the War of 1812 fought? How many British fought in the Revolutionary War?) Ford finally got fed up with the line of questioning. He told the lawyer:
Young man, on my desk is a row of buttons. By pressing one of those buttons, I can get someone to answer any question I ask. Now why should I fill my head with a lot of useless details?
Needless to say, he won the lawsuit
In Ford's spirit, in my office, I have a 5-inch binder filled with ministry climate. If I want to know most things about the ministry, I can refer to that. Usually I ask about the blank spots.
As far as ministry history goes, I'm interested in two periods:
1971-1979
1985-86
Those are relevent to me because those were the years I was in. Everything else is intellectual exercise.
Sherlock Holmes once said your mind is like an attic, why fill it with a lot of useless clutter?
Along those lines, Henry Ford once brought a defamation suit against someone who said he was ignorant. The defense lawyer asked Ford a wide assortment of questions (you know, when was the War of 1812 fought? How many British fought in the Revolutionary War?) Ford finally got fed up with the line of questioning. He told the lawyer:
Young man, on my desk is a row of buttons. By pressing one of those buttons, I can get someone to answer any question I ask. Now why should I fill my head with a lot of useless details?
Needless to say, he won the lawsuit
In Ford's spirit, in my office, I have a 5-inch binder filled with ministry climate. If I want to know most things about the ministry, I can refer to that. Usually I ask about the blank spots.
So, I don't know if this helps or not, but 1985-86, was an interesting year in TWI, because that was VPW died, and CG came out with his POOP Paper. Please folks, no puns! Does that help?
SOC, I don't know if this helps or not, but in my view, a lot of S--t was starting to hit the fan, in 1985-1986. VPW died in 1985, and CG's infamous PoP paper came out in 1986. Personally, I started seeing Red Flags in TWI, and left in 1988. Others may have different views on what was happening in TWI in that ministry year.
So, does anybody know the reason JAL left the vay?
Fired for the letter put together on another thread here by Howard Allen?
Yes, he was fired, but says he doesn't know why. Here is a direct quote from his letter to believers, dated March 30, 1988:
"On April 1, 1987, I was fired by the Board of Trustees from my position as Limb Coordinator of The Way of Washington, D.C. Why? That's a good question, and one I asked Howard Allen that day. He refused to give me a reason."
Yes, he was fired, but says he doesn't know why. Here is a direct quote from his letter to believers, dated March 30, 1988:
"On April 1, 1987, I was fired by the Board of Trustees from my position as Limb Coordinator of The Way of Washington, D.C. Why? That's a good question, and one I asked Howard Allen that day. He refused to give me a reason."
He knows EXACTLY why he was fired. He played the “victim” with his response.
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Rocky
Have you considered asking him yourself? He's on Facebook and willingly connects for ex-way folks.
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So_crates
What a smashing idea Rocky
And in the spirit of your idea, next time you have a complaint about the ministry, why don't you take it up with them?
I've read many complaints about JAL here, why aren't they taking them to JAL?
Think of the bandwidth that be saved. Or is there one set of rules for me and another for everyone else?
What's that you say? They'll ignore the complaints or won't provide a straight answer.
Think maybe that's my expectation?
Why? Look at the ministry's history.
I remember Saint Vic in a teaching tape responding to claims he was partying with the ABS money. He ridiculed up one side and down the other. (Important life lesson: When people resort to ridicule your on to something). For all Saint Vic's ridicule, how'd that turn out?
Another individual said people shouldn't criticize how the ministry uses ABS because he attended BOT meeting were Uncle Harry would be literally crying, Lord, show me how to spend this money. Years later, how did that turn out?
So you can see why I'm hesitant about going to the horse's mouth.
I know JAL's side of it. Many years ago, two believers wanted me to get involved with JAL's group. In a letter to the believers he said he had an epithany and left. I just wonder: All the purges and he chose to stay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back?
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Rocky
Well then... aren't you the cheerful one today.
Are you not familiar with the letter in 1986 signed by JAL, RD, Tom R and Sue P? That was 31 years ago now.
Sounds like you don't really know JAL's side of it.
Btw, your opening post for this thread was simple and succinct, "So, does anybody know the reason JAL left the vay?"
What you didn't say or even allude to was anything suggesting you wouldn't believe his answer if you asked him.
He didn't get purged, he left in the first mass exodus. Other than the already recorded history (rather than jumping down my throat, you're free and welcome to search the old threads in the About the Way forum), you actually could ask him yourself.
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Rocky
Btw, I'm not now and have not been associated with JAL's ministry since he left TWI. As far as I can recall, one time I attended a meeting when he came to Phoenix. I was seriously not impressed in a positive way then and still am not. However, he is civil with people on FB.
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So_crates
Not jumping down your throat, just calling 'em as I see 'em. I've read some pretty vicious statements in this forum directed at JAL, oddly enough, I've never read one post saying "Take it up with JAL, he's on Facebook." So why the exception?
1986? Really? So why didn't you say so in the first place? Why be uncooperative? (Oh, and entering 1986 and JAL's full name into Google brings up a post by WordWolf dated September 26, 2015, the letter you mention was dated March 30, 1988--not in 1986 as you stated. It states he was fired for reasons undiclosed to him.).
However, the letter I read, it being some 20 years ago, so forgive me if I don't remember the date, said he started realizing how far off The Word the ministry had gotten (another way of saying he had an epithany) and either left or decided to leave (I don't remember which--again 20 years ago).
I guess you must have skimmed my post: I never said he was purged. I said:
All the purges and he chose to stay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back?
Neither do I have any association with JAL's organization, nor do I want association with any Way organization.
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Rocky
"All the purges?" Those came AFTER the first exodus in 1986.
I don't get your tone.
Anyway, asking for conjecture at this point rather than checking GSC history... and jumping down my throat for directing you to where you can find the answers you seek seems weird.
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So_crates
Did you direct me to WordWolf's 2015 post? Or JAL's 1988 letter within that post?
No, instead you snarkily responded, Ask JAL, he's on Facebook. As you can see, I know how to use Google. If I wanted to ask JAL, I would have.
Nobody's jumping down your throat: Don't mistake assertiveness for aggression: There's no hostility intended.
No, what's weird is when someone can make vicious statements against JAL and they're not told to look him up on Facebook, then someone else asks a straight question and then gets a snarky response.
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So_crates
As far as ministry history goes, I'm interested in two periods:
1971-1979
1985-86
Those are relevent to me because those were the years I was in. Everything else is intellectual exercise.
Sherlock Holmes once said your mind is like an attic, why fill it with a lot of useless clutter?
Along those lines, Henry Ford once brought a defamation suit against someone who said he was ignorant. The defense lawyer asked Ford a wide assortment of questions (you know, when was the War of 1812 fought? How many British fought in the Revolutionary War?) Ford finally got fed up with the line of questioning. He told the lawyer:
Young man, on my desk is a row of buttons. By pressing one of those buttons, I can get someone to answer any question I ask. Now why should I fill my head with a lot of useless details?
Needless to say, he won the lawsuit
In Ford's spirit, in my office, I have a 5-inch binder filled with ministry climate. If I want to know most things about the ministry, I can refer to that. Usually I ask about the blank spots.
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Rocky
Good luck with that.
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Raf
For what it's worth, I saw nothing snarky in Rocky's reply to the original post.
Socrates, one thing is for certain from where I sit: The way you responded to Rocky makes me extremely unlikely to reply to anything you post here.
Now I'm going to brace myself for a nasty comeback, but boy would I be pleasantly surprised if you prove me wrong.
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Grace Valerie Claire
So, I don't know if this helps or not, but 1985-86, was an interesting year in TWI, because that was VPW died, and CG came out with his POOP Paper. Please folks, no puns! Does that help?
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Grace Valerie Claire
SOC, I don't know if this helps or not, but in my view, a lot of S--t was starting to hit the fan, in 1985-1986. VPW died in 1985, and CG's infamous PoP paper came out in 1986. Personally, I started seeing Red Flags in TWI, and left in 1988. Others may have different views on what was happening in TWI in that ministry year.
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chockfull
Ninja turtles have shifty eyes behind their mask.....
LOL
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chockfull
Fired for the letter put together on another thread here by Howard Allen?
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Taxidev
Yes, he was fired, but says he doesn't know why. Here is a direct quote from his letter to believers, dated March 30, 1988:
"On April 1, 1987, I was fired by the Board of Trustees from my position as Limb Coordinator of The Way of Washington, D.C. Why? That's a good question, and one I asked Howard Allen that day. He refused to give me a reason."
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JayDee
He knows EXACTLY why he was fired. He played the “victim” with his response.
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