Yes, definitely the modus operandi of the Board of Dolts is to package up some new and improved different class series based on the original series but different enough to try and distance from the bad press of the teachers who came up with the series. Maybe as enough time goes by they hope that people will forget. Then they won't have to whitewash, they hope to present a fresh and clean image to a younger generation that doesn't know anything about the real history of the Way ministry.
Then they can just direct the slavelings to "run the class" and everything in life will solve itself. Meanwhile, the dolts can collect statistics on the classes run, and "manage" from above. All while surviving off the $65M from when the Jesus movement brought in income. Nefarious plan. Sounds like a movie that could be entitled "The Long Con".
The first thing a cult does is convince you EVERYONE else is lying! "OUR WAY" is the only way of truth, justice and the AmeriKKKan way. We are Nietzsche's Ubermensch.......Superman. Suspension of disbelief is what fictional story telling is all about...............peace.
Then they can just direct the slavelings to "run the class" and everything in life will solve itself.
Uhhh.....this is asolutely true. Rosalie truly believes the way to handle issues is to cram classes at people. She used to have us run classes at hq by cabinet area and she would plainly state the reason for keeping the classes cranking at hq was the classes would minister to the needs staff had. Im talking the same classes crammed at fellowships on the field: Foundational, Intermediate, living Gods word as a family were the staples. The staff were basically light weight coerced into volunteering and taking the classes. On top of all the bs busy work with keeping up with staff life .... more classes.
I also wanted to add something from the book “Lies We Tell Ourselves: The Psychology of Self-Deception” by Cortney Warren, on page 10 of the Kindle edition – she said something that got me thinking about when I first started “witnessing”:
"If you learned to value people’s intentions more than their actual behavior, you will likely make excuses for people who treat you poorly but claim to love you. You may find yourself in a pattern of relationships in which you are taken advantage of, maltreated, or underappreciated. Yet, you will lie to yourself about why you neither leave nor require that they change."
So here I was a new PFAL grad and a non-practicing Roman Catholic and was probably more thrilled to just read through the entire Bible (sans the Latin and ceremony for sleepy parishioners ) than to review the PFAL material over and over again – some of which reminded me of Catechism study…boring…but funny thing though – with all the fervor of a “simply Jesus” convert (whatever that is ) I seemed to have had a good rapport with a few folks that I was trying to get to come to Twig – I mean we were all over the place with discussing things in the Old and New Testament – and they were amazed with how I could find passages on stuff they were curious about..i mean we use to philosophize about stuff anyway....and granted, they were my Roman Catholic friends…and besides I never heard of any of my friends opening up that big fat Holy Bible on the credenza…in the living room that has the sofa and chairs hermetically sealed - - I mean covered in plastic.
I still remember some criticism I received on how my raw untrained sales technique…which was really nothing more than me talking about what they were already interested in…sounds like an easy sale right? But nooooooo…that would not cut the mustard according to TWI leadership that were under-shepherding me…in so many words I learned that I was wasting my time if I didn’t really push my friends to come to Twig and so I guess someone would sign them up for sure…
so I figured I wasn’t spiritually mature yet…I hadn’t mastered the PFAL material enough to just wing it when witnessing…I really thought they knew what was best – that they wanted to help people with “The Word” that was in the PFAL class. Although looking back now – I realize their actions revealed the real agenda – just get people in the class…then the class does the rest…if they don’t want to take the class then you’re wasting your time with them...so the sales strategy went as follows: forget the warm market if you can't close the sale quickly then go to cold calls - door to door witnessing...something I've grown to hate with a passion - - < see that's me banging my head against the door!
Sadly, this was a lie I would eventually buy into. I would learn to make excuses for having a lack of compassion by telling myself that real love is getting folks into the class…because that’s the only thing that will help people overcome whatever challenges or problems they have – right? Yeeeechhh - I use to really think that way. Come to think of it – I heard echoes of that during the whole time I was in TWI – whether I had some type of a leadership role or was focused on outreach…you know the rap...it was something like “spend 80% of your time with the 20% of the people who want to do The Word”…yeah...something like that…
Edited by T-Bone formatting...and emoticon-tastic !
I also wanted to add something from the book “Lies We Tell Ourselves: The Psychology of Self-Deception” by Cortney Warren, on page 10 of the Kindle edition – she said something that got me thinking about when I first started “witnessing”:
"If you learned to value people’s intentions more than their actual behavior, you will likely make excuses for people who treat you poorly but claim to love you. You may find yourself in a pattern of relationships in which you are taken advantage of, maltreated, or underappreciated. Yet, you will lie to yourself about why you neither leave nor require that they change."
So here I was a new PFAL grad and a non-practicing Roman Catholic and was probably more thrilled to just read through the entire Bible (sans the Latin and ceremony for sleepy parishioners ) than to review the PFAL material over and over again – some of which reminded me of Catechism study…boring…but funny thing though – with all the fervor of a “simply Jesus” convert (whatever that is ) I seemed to have had a good rapport with a few folks that I was trying to get to come to Twig – I mean we were all over the place with discussing things in the Old and New Testament – and they were amazed with how I could find passages on stuff they were curious about..i mean we use to philosophize about stuff anyway....and granted, they were my Roman Catholic friends…and besides I never heard of any of my friends opening up that big fat Holy Bible on the credenza…in the living room that has the sofa and chairs hermetically sealed - - I mean covered in plastic.
snip>...............
There I was.........a young, college kid taking my 900 Kawasaki for a ride. The streets were quiet and the temperature was perfect for motorcycle riding on this sunday morning. After about an hour of cruising, I ventured to a nearby park where I wanted to stop and stretch my legs. I had noticed a small gathering of people in the distance so I throttled down to keep my presence non-disturbing to others. After parking my bike, I went for a short walk to take in the quiet serenity.
Knowing others were in church, I always viewed sunday mornings as a time of prayer, reverence, and meditation. So, it came as a bit of a surprise when I walked back to my Kawasaki that a young man was standing there holding a Bible. He told me that he was a "WOW Ambassador" and that he and others (in that nearby group) were here in the city for one year to show people the essence of biblical research and how the Scriptures interpret themselves. Anyways............he invited me to a "twig fellowship" to check it out, and after three or four phone calls prompting me to attend, I went.
I didn't see the selling of snake oil..........but I did see a couple of things. Having taken marketing classes in college, I sniffed a couple of marketing ploys in pfal that I thought wierwille used that seemed shady. But hey.......I was just a young buck, what did I know? It wasn't like I was getting involved in a cult......../sarc.
I saw young people who greeted me with hugs and enthusiasm and a zeal to know God...
I saw youthful vigor and concern for my life and where I was headed, now and the eternal....
I took pfal and thought, even with its quirkiness, that it answered most of my questions....
I thought those manifestations seemed repetitive......but that it was the beginning stages of holy spirit within...
Except for pfal, I couldn't have cared less about twi's hq, policies, bureaucracy or the man, wierwille....
As a young nineteen year-old, I only really cared about those around me......a small circle of "friends"....
Small, incremental steps.........that's what it takes to indoctrinate someone, anyone. Every time I attended twig or threw money into the horn-a-plenty, I was confirming my allegiance to this "outreach group." Of course, within weeks after taking pfal, I began to realize that these people in my college town were "neophytes" compared to others in this "way tree thing." But......all my growing trust and relationships were with THESE people, not the distant headquarters, or whatever. Every week and month that I spent going to twig and taking other classes, I was bonding my love and trust factor to them.
Then, after eight months........the pleas for me to "go WOW" were constant. "You should go -- just one year, give one year to God and watch how He blesses you"......you won't believe how far He can take you in your life as you give to Him. So, after all the love-bombing and pleas, etc............I quit college and went WOW.
Now, I had put more distance between my college education, college friends and room-mates, my parents and family.......and solidified my allegiance, and the decision I'd made, by plunging headlong into the WOW year. What a roller-coaster ride of a year...........some wild times, bare-cabinet moments, scary moments, answers-to-prayer moments and camaraderie with my WOW family thru tough times so that we could return to the ROA, having fulfilled our commitment to God. See, fulfill your vow.......that's what God honors.
Keep your hands to the plow and don't look back.........
Incremental steps........why would I go back to college when God has other plans for me?
Go Way Corps, you've got what it takes......commitment, dedication and passion for the truth...
This wasn't "selling snake oil"............THIS was me, my life, and how God needed me to help "move the word".....
At age 21.......who sees a deceptive, underlying, exploiting charismatic leader hiding in the shadows?
BUT..............my first red flags came from the CF&S class and my first year in-residence when wierwille lashed out at corps grads who were exiting as cop-outs? I was stunned by the vehement anger and tone. At the 1978 Advanced Class, I was selected as a Branch Coordinator and was summoned to our coordinator's meeting in the Fireplace Room with Wierwille and Martindale. At this meeting was when wierwille blasted the three 8th corps guys for going "rogue" in their research and were possessed. This anger was laced throughout that advanced class.........and the following months of my first four months in-residence. I should have exited corps/twi then and there.
Emotions and relationships, I believe.......are a MAJOR part in why people stay in this cult. Most people formulate their decisions on emotion, not logic......and certainly not "biblical research techniques". LOL. People stay in a cult and REFUSE to see the "snake oil".......it doesn't matter how "educated" they are. It takes something rather dramatic, or personal.....to see the snake oil, and get out.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
(SNIP)...Emotions and relationships, I believe.......are a MAJOR part in why people stay in this cult. Most people formulate their decisions on emotion, not logic......and certainly not "biblical research techniques". LOL. People stay in a cult and REFUSE to see the "snake oil".......it doesn't matter how "educated" they are. It takes something rather dramatic, or personal.....to see the snake oil, and get out.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
............and still in a cult..
Wow Skyrider, that’s a powerful and personal post – thanks for sharing. In the last part of your post there is a very important point that cannot be emphasized enough at Grease Spot:
"Emotions and relationships, I believe.......are a MAJOR part in why people stay in this cult."
== == == == ==
yes - - - so true - - the emotional and social ties are often the strongest links that keep us attached to an exploitive organization like The Way International.
When I started this thread, I went through a number of titles before deciding to go with the sarcastic “Tips on selling Snake Oil”. Another way of putting it – that might not appear so inflammatory to some folks still in TWI would be: the things you have to do to keep yourself motivated when confidence in what you promote keeps dwindling.
Perhaps that’s often where the emotional and social ties also come into play. “When is the last time that you signed up someone for the class?” When I was in TWI and heard a question like that – it would often start a whole series of inner turmoil…feelings that spanned everything from self-doubt to fears that I would be considered a poor witness by others.
Perhaps this is way off topic – but another thing that bothers me about pushing TWI’s classes is just the whole goofy idea that you have to make Christianity a marketable product. Churches that get into the health and wealth gospel have also latched onto this same concept….to which I say - what if all you got out of Christianity was Jesus Christ - would that be enough for you?....what if the impact to your prosperity and your health was negligible?
And just as means to counter any snake-oil-selling-inclinations – how about I spiritually or religiously neutralize the “product” or whatever it is that you feel so compelled to promote to others as the greatest thing there is... If what you’re into gives you a sense of fulfillment…a sense of meaning in your life – do you really need a supervisor over you to keep you motivated to spread the word on it?
Do you feel let down, unfulfilled, ineffectual if others don’t get on board with what you’re into?
Do you tend to embellish, exaggerate or stretch the truth just a little when telling others about what you’re into?
Emotions and relationships, I believe.......are a MAJOR part in why people stay in this cult. Most ALL (adult) people formulate their decisions on emotion, not logic......and certainly not "biblical research techniques". LOL. People stay in a cult and REFUSE to see the "snake oil".......it doesn't matter how "educated" they are. It takes something rather dramatic, or personal.....to see the snake oil, and get out.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
............and still in a cult.
.
Sociologists say that it takes a "significant emotional event" for adults to change big things in their lives. Disrupting a person's entire religious belief system and social support network are big things that one doesn't change based on logic.
The first thing a cult does is convince you EVERYONE else is lying! "OUR WAY" is the only way of truth, justice and the AmeriKKKan way. We are Nietzsche's Ubermensch.......Superman. Suspension of disbelief is what fictional story telling is all about...............peace.
Another thing a cult does is convince you the cult knows what's better for you than you do.
I heard one ministry leader try and explain this by claiming: "I know what you want better than you do, I know the Christ in you."
Sociologists say that it takes a "significant emotional event" for adults to change big things in their lives. Disrupting a person's entire religious belief system and social support network are big things that one doesn't change based on logic.
Technically speaking, I'd expect more than one sociologist says that, so technically "sociologists" say that. It's the brainchild of Dr Morris Massey, Sociologist, marketing professor, and maker of training videos. His statements just happen to make it easier to sell his training videos. (Useful to the hypnotherapist in the link, also-good for drumming up business.)
When stripped of mysticism, the idea is simple-which is why it's not a cornerstone of PSYCHOLOGY (the study of the individual). (The man's degree was in sociology, which addresses the motivation of GROUPS- for which I have a respect but I accept the limitations of the field as I accept the limitations of Psychology.) As we all live, things happen. When some of those things happen, we have a moment to reflect, a moment to have an "aha", a moment to have a moment of clarity, under any of a number of names long preceding this guy. ANYTHING can trigger this, so long as it gets us thinking (or reacting), and it doesn't have to look significant to others to do so, provided we actually thinking (or reacting.) The moment where people get sick and tired of being sick and tired is one. In the parable of the prodigal son, there was no "instant" thing, but the youth had such a moment while doing his manual labor- that he was better off starting over than continuing what he was doing.
But change doesn't have to be preceded by UPHEAVAL or anything dramatic. For many people, upheavals or dramatic changes CAN result in thinking, but that's not an equation. Most people tend to keep moving forward without a lot of self-reflection unless something changes-THEN they look around and think. Not everyone needs an "event" except in the most technical sense that tortures the meaning of the word ("I was pouring milk on my cornflakes one morning when it hit me...") Not everyone needs it to be "emotional", but things that can affect the emotion are more likely to get the attention of the average schmoe. And "significant", as I said, is HIGHLY subjective. Living through the tumult of a 9/11 may produce no "significant" emotional event for someone and they go on as they did before, while waiting at a traffic light may produce the moment.
It's neither a cornerstone of Psychology (which studies these things) nor Sociology (which does not any more than, say, Linguistics does) that adults NEED some sort of tumult to change "big things in their lives." Some people may just keep plodding along until something big grabs their attention or prevents the usual, but that's no guarantee. Changing beliefs and changing support networks can change based on logic-and they certainly don't need upheavals to change.
Granted, some people DO change after those. However, some people leave a burning building because they're carried out- and some just walk out or run clear. Not everyone will need to be carried out just because that's how SOME leave the building.
Technically speaking, I'd expect more than one sociologist says that, so technically "sociologists" say that. It's the brainchild of Dr Morris Massey, Sociologist, marketing professor, and maker of training videos. His statements just happen to make it easier to sell his training videos. (Useful to the hypnotherapist in the link, also-good for drumming up business.)
When stripped of mysticism, the idea is simple-which is why it's not a cornerstone of PSYCHOLOGY (the study of the individual). (The man's degree was in sociology, which addresses the motivation of GROUPS- for which I have a respect but I accept the limitations of the field as I accept the limitations of Psychology.) As we all live, things happen. When some of those things happen, we have a moment to reflect, a moment to have an "aha", a moment to have a moment of clarity, under any of a number of names long preceding this guy. ANYTHING can trigger this, so long as it gets us thinking (or reacting), and it doesn't have to look significant to others to do so, provided we actually thinking (or reacting.) The moment where people get sick and tired of being sick and tired is one. In the parable of the prodigal son, there was no "instant" thing, but the youth had such a moment while doing his manual labor- that he was better off starting over than continuing what he was doing.
But change doesn't have to be preceded by UPHEAVAL or anything dramatic. For many people, upheavals or dramatic changes CAN result in thinking, but that's not an equation. Most people tend to keep moving forward without a lot of self-reflection unless something changes-THEN they look around and think. Not everyone needs an "event" except in the most technical sense that tortures the meaning of the word ("I was pouring milk on my cornflakes one morning when it hit me...") Not everyone needs it to be "emotional", but things that can affect the emotion are more likely to get the attention of the average schmoe. And "significant", as I said, is HIGHLY subjective. Living through the tumult of a 9/11 may produce no "significant" emotional event for someone and they go on as they did before, while waiting at a traffic light may produce the moment.
It's neither a cornerstone of Psychology (which studies these things) nor Sociology (which does not any more than, say, Linguistics does) that adults NEED some sort of tumult to change "big things in their lives." Some people may just keep plodding along until something big grabs their attention or prevents the usual, but that's no guarantee. Changing beliefs and changing support networks can change based on logic-and they certainly don't need upheavals to change.
Granted, some people DO change after those. However, some people leave a burning building because they're carried out- and some just walk out or run clear. Not everyone will need to be carried out just because that's how SOME leave the building.
Nice discussion. I also know that trained psychologists recognize what is called a "triggering event". This would be the event that led them to pick up the phone and schedule an appointment. As we go through life, events happen. Most of them would not be of the category that could trigger change. Humans are creatures of habit. So it is usually some kind of dramatic event and impact that drives a person to make a big life change. Without a "triggering event", most people although they have the opportunity to reflect and change after any event they do not tend to do so until impacted by a "triggering event".
Nice discussion. I also know that trained psychologists recognize what is called a "triggering event". This would be the event that led them to pick up the phone and schedule an appointment. As we go through life, events happen. Most of them would not be of the category that could trigger change. Humans are creatures of habit. So it is usually some kind of dramatic event and impact that drives a person to make a big life change. Without a "triggering event", most people although they have the opportunity to reflect and change after any event they do not tend to do so until impacted by a "triggering event".
I also wanted to add something from the book “Lies We Tell Ourselves: The Psychology of Self-Deception” by Cortney Warren, on page 10 of the Kindle edition – she said something that got me thinking about when I first started “witnessing”:
"If you learned to value people’s intentions more than their actual behavior, you will likely make excuses for people who treat you poorly but claim to love you. You may find yourself in a pattern of relationships in which you are taken advantage of, maltreated, or underappreciated. Yet, you will lie to yourself about why you neither leave nor require that they change."
So here I was a new PFAL grad and a non-practicing Roman Catholic and was probably more thrilled to just read through the entire Bible (sans the Latin and ceremony for sleepy parishioners ) than to review the PFAL material over and over again – some of which reminded me of Catechism study…boring…but funny thing though – with all the fervor of a “simply Jesus” convert (whatever that is ) I seemed to have had a good rapport with a few folks that I was trying to get to come to Twig – I mean we were all over the place with discussing things in the Old and New Testament – and they were amazed with how I could find passages on stuff they were curious about..i mean we use to philosophize about stuff anyway....and granted, they were my Roman Catholic friends…and besides I never heard of any of my friends opening up that big fat Holy Bible on the credenza…in the living room that has the sofa and chairs hermetically sealed - - I mean covered in plastic.
I still remember some criticism I received on how my raw untrained sales technique…which was really nothing more than me talking about what they were already interested in…sounds like an easy sale right? But nooooooo…that would not cut the mustard according to TWI leadership that were under-shepherding me…in so many words I learned that I was wasting my time if I didn’t really push my friends to come to Twig and so I guess someone would sign them up for sure…
so I figured I wasn’t spiritually mature yet…I hadn’t mastered the PFAL material enough to just wing it when witnessing…I really thought they knew what was best – that they wanted to help people with “The Word” that was in the PFAL class. Although looking back now – I realize their actions revealed the real agenda – just get people in the class…then the class does the rest…if they don’t want to take the class then you’re wasting your time with them...so the sales strategy went as follows: forget the warm market if you can't close the sale quickly then go to cold calls - door to door witnessing...something I've grown to hate with a passion - - < see that's me banging my head against the door!
Sadly, this was a lie I would eventually buy into. I would learn to make excuses for having a lack of compassion by telling myself that real love is getting folks into the class…because that’s the only thing that will help people overcome whatever challenges or problems they have – right? Yeeeechhh - I use to really think that way. Come to think of it – I heard echoes of that during the whole time I was in TWI – whether I had some type of a leadership role or was focused on outreach…you know the rap...it was something like “spend 80% of your time with the 20% of the people who want to do The Word”…yeah...something like that…
T-Bone I wanted to say thank you for expanding upon this post. Your quote from that book has really set very deeply with me and helped to clarify things in my life currently. That book is now on my Kindle too!
I think maybe the reason why many people stay in a cult is the lies they tell themselves. And how they take others on intent value rather than actual treatment. This allows for abusive relationships and for so-called ministers to use God's name to further their own various lusts.
Nice discussion. I also know that trained psychologists recognize what is called a "triggering event". This would be the event that led them to pick up the phone and schedule an appointment. As we go through life, events happen. Most of them would not be of the category that could trigger change. Humans are creatures of habit. So it is usually some kind of dramatic event and impact that drives a person to make a big life change. Without a "triggering event", most people although they have the opportunity to reflect and change after any event they do not tend to do so until impacted by a "triggering event".
Indeed.
I wonder if any wayfers, happily plodding along with their lives, have ever left "the household" based solely on logic...
What keeps people in a social organization (of any size)? Logic or the subjective sense of belonging?
Would it be a significant event if such person or persons no longer felt a sense of belonging?
As much as any human can be said to base decisions on logic, I left twi based on logic and personal observation. (I went to ROA 89 to see things personally before making any decision, so I had both sides represented.) I hardly think I was the ONLY person who did, although I imagine many did not.
Social organizations work for several reasons, depending on the organization. If they don't serve social needs, they collapse or wither away, So, yes, making people feel unwelcome will drive off newcomers and chase off old-timers. And yes, like twi's been doing for decades.
I have seen so many people do so many stupid things because some leader thought they had a great idea for someone.
We were predisposed to doing stupid things because some leader had brain flatulance.
"Obey the MOG, even if he's wrong, then God will bless you," remember?
Like any authoritarian culture, they make promises for the future. Then when those promises don't come to pass, they make excuses.
I always loved the believing equals recieving con. After falling on your tail end a dozen times, you go to leadership to find out what's up. Then you have to present everything you did for the last dozen times so they could find that one millisecond where they could claim you weren't believing.
I wonder if any wayfers, happily plodding along with their lives, have ever left "the household" based solely on logic...
Yes. After awhile of beating my head against a brick wall, I saw empirically believing didn't add up.
Even then--though I had no affilliation with The Way--for a good number of years, I kept backsliding and blaming myself. So, I searched elsewhere for what I did wrong. After many years of private searching, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't I who failed the doctrine, it was the doctrine that failed me.
What keeps people in a social organization (of any size)? Logic or the subjective sense of belonging?
Logic? In The Way? What logic?
Would it be a significant event if such person or persons no longer felt a sense of belonging?
You know, kinda like being marked and avoided...
For some it would probably be the end of the world (the story of a girl who spurned Saint Vic come to mind). To others, the more autonomous of us, it be meh.
As much as any human can be said to base decisions on logic, I left twi based on logic and personal observation. (I went to ROA 89 to see things personally before making any decision, so I had both sides represented.) I hardly think I was the ONLY person who did, although I imagine many did not.
I wonder if any wayfers, happily plodding along with their lives, have ever left "the household" based solely on logic...
What keeps people in a social organization (of any size)? Logic or the subjective sense of belonging?
Would it be a significant event if such person or persons no longer felt a sense of belonging?
You know, kinda like being marked and avoided...
Rocky, whoa!! I think you may have answered, a question I have had for years. Why did I stay in TWI, when others left? Perhaps it was because I wanted to belong to something. Thanks for your post.
As much as any human can be said to base decisions on logic, I left twi based on logic and personal observation. (I went to ROA 89 to see things personally before making any decision, so I had both sides represented.) I hardly think I was the ONLY person who did, although I imagine many did not.
I was at that same event. Going for similar kinds of input. Whatever I saw was not what you saw. I remained for many years after that. I was pretty blind until people's individual treatment of me added up. I came to a point where the average person in the world at my job, in my community, on the street, treated me better than those who were supposed to be "in the household" with me. The fruit of people's lives across the board in that organization were my triggering event.
I was at that same event. Going for similar kinds of input. Whatever I saw was not what you saw. I remained for many years after that. I was pretty blind until people's individual treatment of me added up. I came to a point where the average person in the world at my job, in my community, on the street, treated me better than those who were supposed to be "in the household" with me. The fruit of people's lives across the board in that organization were my triggering event.
Chock, once I left TWI, I was pleasantly surprised at how much better, many non-Christans treated me, than people in TWI. I dealt with much less Hog Wash with non-Christians, than with Christians. To this day, I have far more problems interacting with "Christians", than non-Christians.
I had the benefit of having had a few months of exposure to the opposing point of view since ROA 88. I then had exposure to ROA 89. So, I was contrasting the two while running a fine-tooth comb over the ROA experience. Seriously- if you were already looking critically at twi when walking in to ROA 89, I'm sure you would have caught a lot of what we caught. BTW, do you remember the "anti-Bible protesters"? Any suspicions that they were 2-3 twi people stationed at the front with placards specifically to look foolish rather than 2-3 people at the front who drove an hour or more to a farm in the middle of nowhere to make a protest specifically against the Bible but not at all against twi with no car parked nearby to take them home when they were done instead of being walking distance to their homes? I bet that's coming back to you now.
6 hours ago, chockfull said:
I was at that same event. Going for similar kinds of input. Whatever I saw was not what you saw. I remained for many years after that. I was pretty blind until people's individual treatment of me added up. I came to a point where the average person in the world at my job, in my community, on the street, treated me better than those who were supposed to be "in the household" with me. The fruit of people's lives across the board in that organization were my triggering event.
I had the benefit of having had a few months of exposure to the opposing point of view since ROA 88. I then had exposure to ROA 89. So, I was contrasting the two while running a fine-tooth comb over the ROA experience. Seriously- if you were already looking critically at twi when walking in to ROA 89, I'm sure you would have caught a lot of what we caught. BTW, do you remember the "anti-Bible protesters"? Any suspicions that they were 2-3 twi people stationed at the front with placards specifically to look foolish rather than 2-3 people at the front who drove an hour or more to a farm in the middle of nowhere to make a protest specifically against the Bible but not at all against twi with no car parked nearby to take them home when they were done instead of being walking distance to their homes? I bet that's coming back to you now.
WordWolf, some great points about critical thinking skills…and always a fascinating thing to think about when it comes to asking what is the light-bulb-moment of seeing through TWI’s Christian veneer…of seeing what they have to offer in a new light…seeing it for what it really is…snake oil.
We all have critical thinking skills to some degree or another depending on so many variables – but why does it take some folks longer than others to see through TWI’s bull$hit? probably has a lot to do with your length of involvement and types of experiences...For me, maybe it was a combination of youthful naiveté and my cognitive faculties slowly being recalibrated to the unique world of The Way International …as followers we learn to dismiss any imperfections, dubious behavior, or a shady way of doing things - by making allowances using TWI-metrics: oh, you’re just looking at the flesh, you need to look at the Christ in them…when you are spiritually mature you’ll better understand things like this…the more you work “the word” the more you’ll see the greatness of this…
Maybe the road to that snake oil epiphany is sort of like Keanu Reeves’ character in the sci-fi action film “The Matrix” (this reference has been used at Grease Spot quite a few times – thought I’d use it here for old times’ sake ).He lives a double life – as Thomas Anderson he is a computer programmer – but he’s also a hacker that goes by the name Neo. He believes something is wrong with the world but he can’t quite put his finger on it. The fact that he is a hacker and pursues leads that may provide an answer tells me he’s already started to flex his critical thinking skills. I can relate this to how I first began questioning the status quo of TWI – in the aftermath of the patriarch paper - - I’m embarrassed to say my critical thinking skills were so calibrated for TWI-world that it took something like that maelstrom aftermath to act as an AED to my faculties. It’s a start anyway. You have to begin somewhere.
There’s a point where you stand back and instead of just analyzing a particular incident or a particular doctrine and take a good long look at the whole thing…you take a brave step outside the TWI-mindset…like Neo in “The Matrix” …the turning point…the eye-opener… the epiphany…the snake-oil-reveal for Neo was when he accepted the red pill from Morpheus. When he takes the red pill, the simulated world of the matrix disintegrates and he awakes to find himself in a pod and realizes his own life’s resources have been feeding this elaborate deception.
I think a lifesaver for many folks ensnared in this cult is help from the outside - Waydale, transchat and now Grease Spot are indeed lifesavers – and have helped folks recalibrate their perception of TWI.
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chockfull
Yes, definitely the modus operandi of the Board of Dolts is to package up some new and improved different class series based on the original series but different enough to try and distance from the bad press of the teachers who came up with the series. Maybe as enough time goes by they hope that people will forget. Then they won't have to whitewash, they hope to present a fresh and clean image to a younger generation that doesn't know anything about the real history of the Way ministry.
Then they can just direct the slavelings to "run the class" and everything in life will solve itself. Meanwhile, the dolts can collect statistics on the classes run, and "manage" from above. All while surviving off the $65M from when the Jesus movement brought in income. Nefarious plan. Sounds like a movie that could be entitled "The Long Con".
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DontWorryBeHappy
The first thing a cult does is convince you EVERYONE else is lying! "OUR WAY" is the only way of truth, justice and the AmeriKKKan way. We are Nietzsche's Ubermensch.......Superman. Suspension of disbelief is what fictional story telling is all about...............peace.
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OldSkool
Uhhh.....this is asolutely true. Rosalie truly believes the way to handle issues is to cram classes at people. She used to have us run classes at hq by cabinet area and she would plainly state the reason for keeping the classes cranking at hq was the classes would minister to the needs staff had. Im talking the same classes crammed at fellowships on the field: Foundational, Intermediate, living Gods word as a family were the staples. The staff were basically light weight coerced into volunteering and taking the classes. On top of all the bs busy work with keeping up with staff life .... more classes.
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T-Bone
Thanks to all for your input.
I also wanted to add something from the book “Lies We Tell Ourselves: The Psychology of Self-Deception” by Cortney Warren, on page 10 of the Kindle edition – she said something that got me thinking about when I first started “witnessing”:
"If you learned to value people’s intentions more than their actual behavior, you will likely make excuses for people who treat you poorly but claim to love you. You may find yourself in a pattern of relationships in which you are taken advantage of, maltreated, or underappreciated. Yet, you will lie to yourself about why you neither leave nor require that they change."
So here I was a new PFAL grad and a non-practicing Roman Catholic and was probably more thrilled to just read through the entire Bible (sans the Latin and ceremony for sleepy parishioners
) than to review the PFAL material over and over again – some of which reminded me of Catechism study…boring…but funny thing though – with all the fervor of a “simply Jesus” convert (whatever that is 
) I seemed to have had a good rapport with a few folks that I was trying to get to come to Twig – I mean we were all over the place with discussing things in the Old and New Testament – and they were amazed with how I could find passages on stuff they were curious about..i mean we use to philosophize about stuff anyway....and granted, they were my Roman Catholic friends…and besides I never heard of any of my friends opening up that big fat Holy Bible on the credenza…in the living room that has the sofa and chairs hermetically sealed - - I mean covered in plastic. 
I still remember some criticism I received on how my raw untrained sales technique…which was really nothing more than me talking about what they were already interested in…sounds like an easy sale right? But nooooooo…that would not cut the mustard according to TWI leadership that were under-shepherding me…in so many words I learned that I was wasting my time if I didn’t really push my friends to come to Twig and so I guess someone would sign them up for sure…
so I figured I wasn’t spiritually mature yet…I hadn’t mastered the PFAL material enough to just wing it when witnessing…I really thought they knew what was best – that they wanted to help people with “The Word” that was in the PFAL class. Although looking back now – I realize their actions revealed the real agenda – just get people in the class…then the class does the rest…if they don’t want to take the class then you’re wasting your time with them...so the sales strategy went as follows: forget the warm market if you can't close the sale quickly then go to cold calls - door to door witnessing...something I've grown to hate with a passion - -
< see that's me banging my head against the door! 
Sadly, this was a lie I would eventually buy into. I would learn to make excuses for having a lack of compassion by telling myself that real love is getting folks into the class…because that’s the only thing that will help people overcome whatever challenges or problems they have – right? Yeeeechhh - I use to really think that way. Come to think of it – I heard echoes of that during the whole time I was in TWI – whether I had some type of a leadership role or was focused on outreach…you know the rap...it was something like “spend 80% of your time with the 20% of the people who want to do The Word”…yeah...something like that…
Edited by T-Boneformatting...and emoticon-tastic !
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skyrider
There I was.........a young, college kid taking my 900 Kawasaki for a ride. The streets were quiet and the temperature was perfect for motorcycle riding on this sunday morning. After about an hour of cruising, I ventured to a nearby park where I wanted to stop and stretch my legs. I had noticed a small gathering of people in the distance so I throttled down to keep my presence non-disturbing to others. After parking my bike, I went for a short walk to take in the quiet serenity.
Knowing others were in church, I always viewed sunday mornings as a time of prayer, reverence, and meditation. So, it came as a bit of a surprise when I walked back to my Kawasaki that a young man was standing there holding a Bible. He told me that he was a "WOW Ambassador" and that he and others (in that nearby group) were here in the city for one year to show people the essence of biblical research and how the Scriptures interpret themselves. Anyways............he invited me to a "twig fellowship" to check it out, and after three or four phone calls prompting me to attend, I went.
I didn't see the selling of snake oil..........but I did see a couple of things. Having taken marketing classes in college, I sniffed a couple of marketing ploys in pfal that I thought wierwille used that seemed shady. But hey.......I was just a young buck, what did I know? It wasn't like I was getting involved in a cult......../sarc.
Small, incremental steps.........that's what it takes to indoctrinate someone, anyone. Every time I attended twig or threw money into the horn-a-plenty, I was confirming my allegiance to this "outreach group." Of course, within weeks after taking pfal, I began to realize that these people in my college town were "neophytes" compared to others in this "way tree thing." But......all my growing trust and relationships were with THESE people, not the distant headquarters, or whatever. Every week and month that I spent going to twig and taking other classes, I was bonding my love and trust factor to them.
Then, after eight months........the pleas for me to "go WOW" were constant. "You should go -- just one year, give one year to God and watch how He blesses you"......you won't believe how far He can take you in your life as you give to Him. So, after all the love-bombing and pleas, etc............I quit college and went WOW.
Now, I had put more distance between my college education, college friends and room-mates, my parents and family.......and solidified my allegiance, and the decision I'd made, by plunging headlong into the WOW year. What a roller-coaster ride of a year...........some wild times, bare-cabinet moments, scary moments, answers-to-prayer moments and camaraderie with my WOW family thru tough times so that we could return to the ROA, having fulfilled our commitment to God. See, fulfill your vow.......that's what God honors.
Keep your hands to the plow and don't look back.........
BUT..............my first red flags came from the CF&S class and my first year in-residence when wierwille lashed out at corps grads who were exiting as cop-outs? I was stunned by the vehement anger and tone. At the 1978 Advanced Class, I was selected as a Branch Coordinator and was summoned to our coordinator's meeting in the Fireplace Room with Wierwille and Martindale. At this meeting was when wierwille blasted the three 8th corps guys for going "rogue" in their research and were possessed. This anger was laced throughout that advanced class.........and the following months of my first four months in-residence. I should have exited corps/twi then and there.
Emotions and relationships, I believe.......are a MAJOR part in why people stay in this cult. Most people formulate their decisions on emotion, not logic......and certainly not "biblical research techniques". LOL. People stay in a cult and REFUSE to see the "snake oil".......it doesn't matter how "educated" they are. It takes something rather dramatic, or personal.....to see the snake oil, and get out.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
............and still in a cult.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
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T-Bone
Wow Skyrider, that’s a powerful and personal post – thanks for sharing. In the last part of your post there is a very important point that cannot be emphasized enough at Grease Spot:
"Emotions and relationships, I believe.......are a MAJOR part in why people stay in this cult."
== == == == ==
yes - - - so true - - the emotional and social ties are often the strongest links that keep us attached to an exploitive organization like The Way International.
When I started this thread, I went through a number of titles before deciding to go with the sarcastic “Tips on selling Snake Oil”. Another way of putting it – that might not appear so inflammatory to some folks still in TWI would be: the things you have to do to keep yourself motivated when confidence in what you promote keeps dwindling.
Perhaps that’s often where the emotional and social ties also come into play. “When is the last time that you signed up someone for the class?” When I was in TWI and heard a question like that – it would often start a whole series of inner turmoil…feelings that spanned everything from self-doubt to fears that I would be considered a poor witness by others.
Perhaps this is way off topic – but another thing that bothers me about pushing TWI’s classes is just the whole goofy idea that you have to make Christianity a marketable product. Churches that get into the health and wealth gospel have also latched onto this same concept….to which I say - what if all you got out of Christianity was Jesus Christ - would that be enough for you?....what if the impact to your prosperity and your health was negligible?
And just as means to counter any snake-oil-selling-inclinations – how about I spiritually or religiously neutralize the “product” or whatever it is that you feel so compelled to promote to others as the greatest thing there is... If what you’re into gives you a sense of fulfillment…a sense of meaning in your life – do you really need a supervisor over you to keep you motivated to spread the word on it?
Do you feel let down, unfulfilled, ineffectual if others don’t get on board with what you’re into?
Do you tend to embellish, exaggerate or stretch the truth just a little when telling others about what you’re into?
Edited by T-Boneemphasis
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Rocky
Sociologists say that it takes a "significant emotional event" for adults to change big things in their lives. Disrupting a person's entire religious belief system and social support network are big things that one doesn't change based on logic.
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So_crates
Another thing a cult does is convince you the cult knows what's better for you than you do.
I heard one ministry leader try and explain this by claiming: "I know what you want better than you do, I know the Christ in you."
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chockfull
I have seen so many people do so many stupid things because some leader thought they had a great idea for someone.
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WordWolf
Technically speaking, I'd expect more than one sociologist says that, so technically "sociologists" say that. It's the brainchild of Dr Morris Massey, Sociologist, marketing professor, and maker of training videos. His statements just happen to make it easier to sell his training videos. (Useful to the hypnotherapist in the link, also-good for drumming up business.)
When stripped of mysticism, the idea is simple-which is why it's not a cornerstone of PSYCHOLOGY (the study of the individual). (The man's degree was in sociology, which addresses the motivation of GROUPS- for which I have a respect but I accept the limitations of the field as I accept the limitations of Psychology.) As we all live, things happen. When some of those things happen, we have a moment to reflect, a moment to have an "aha", a moment to have a moment of clarity, under any of a number of names long preceding this guy. ANYTHING can trigger this, so long as it gets us thinking (or reacting), and it doesn't have to look significant to others to do so, provided we actually thinking (or reacting.) The moment where people get sick and tired of being sick and tired is one. In the parable of the prodigal son, there was no "instant" thing, but the youth had such a moment while doing his manual labor- that he was better off starting over than continuing what he was doing.
But change doesn't have to be preceded by UPHEAVAL or anything dramatic. For many people, upheavals or dramatic changes CAN result in thinking, but that's not an equation. Most people tend to keep moving forward without a lot of self-reflection unless something changes-THEN they look around and think. Not everyone needs an "event" except in the most technical sense that tortures the meaning of the word ("I was pouring milk on my cornflakes one morning when it hit me...") Not everyone needs it to be "emotional", but things that can affect the emotion are more likely to get the attention of the average schmoe. And "significant", as I said, is HIGHLY subjective. Living through the tumult of a 9/11 may produce no "significant" emotional event for someone and they go on as they did before, while waiting at a traffic light may produce the moment.
It's neither a cornerstone of Psychology (which studies these things) nor Sociology (which does not any more than, say, Linguistics does) that adults NEED some sort of tumult to change "big things in their lives." Some people may just keep plodding along until something big grabs their attention or prevents the usual, but that's no guarantee. Changing beliefs and changing support networks can change based on logic-and they certainly don't need upheavals to change.
Granted, some people DO change after those. However, some people leave a burning building because they're carried out- and some just walk out or run clear. Not everyone will need to be carried out just because that's how SOME leave the building.
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chockfull
Nice discussion. I also know that trained psychologists recognize what is called a "triggering event". This would be the event that led them to pick up the phone and schedule an appointment. As we go through life, events happen. Most of them would not be of the category that could trigger change. Humans are creatures of habit. So it is usually some kind of dramatic event and impact that drives a person to make a big life change. Without a "triggering event", most people although they have the opportunity to reflect and change after any event they do not tend to do so until impacted by a "triggering event".
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WordWolf
Nicely summarized.
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chockfull
T-Bone I wanted to say thank you for expanding upon this post. Your quote from that book has really set very deeply with me and helped to clarify things in my life currently. That book is now on my Kindle too!
I think maybe the reason why many people stay in a cult is the lies they tell themselves. And how they take others on intent value rather than actual treatment. This allows for abusive relationships and for so-called ministers to use God's name to further their own various lusts.
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T-Bone
you're welcome, Chockfull
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Rocky
Indeed.
I wonder if any wayfers, happily plodding along with their lives, have ever left "the household" based solely on logic...
What keeps people in a social organization (of any size)? Logic or the subjective sense of belonging?
Would it be a significant event if such person or persons no longer felt a sense of belonging?
You know, kinda like being marked and avoided...
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WordWolf
As much as any human can be said to base decisions on logic, I left twi based on logic and personal observation. (I went to ROA 89 to see things personally before making any decision, so I had both sides represented.) I hardly think I was the ONLY person who did, although I imagine many did not.
Social organizations work for several reasons, depending on the organization. If they don't serve social needs, they collapse or wither away, So, yes, making people feel unwelcome will drive off newcomers and chase off old-timers. And yes, like twi's been doing for decades.
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So_crates
We were predisposed to doing stupid things because some leader had brain flatulance.
"Obey the MOG, even if he's wrong, then God will bless you," remember?
Like any authoritarian culture, they make promises for the future. Then when those promises don't come to pass, they make excuses.
I always loved the believing equals recieving con. After falling on your tail end a dozen times, you go to leadership to find out what's up. Then you have to present everything you did for the last dozen times so they could find that one millisecond where they could claim you weren't believing.
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So_crates
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
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Rocky
Maybe.
However, here's another way of looking at it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, whoa!! I think you may have answered, a question I have had for years. Why did I stay in TWI, when others left? Perhaps it was because I wanted to belong to something. Thanks for your post.
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chockfull
I was at that same event. Going for similar kinds of input. Whatever I saw was not what you saw. I remained for many years after that. I was pretty blind until people's individual treatment of me added up. I came to a point where the average person in the world at my job, in my community, on the street, treated me better than those who were supposed to be "in the household" with me. The fruit of people's lives across the board in that organization were my triggering event.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, once I left TWI, I was pleasantly surprised at how much better, many non-Christans treated me, than people in TWI. I dealt with much less Hog Wash with non-Christians, than with Christians. To this day, I have far more problems interacting with "Christians", than non-Christians.
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WordWolf
I had the benefit of having had a few months of exposure to the opposing point of view since ROA 88. I then had exposure to ROA 89. So, I was contrasting the two while running a fine-tooth comb over the ROA experience. Seriously- if you were already looking critically at twi when walking in to ROA 89, I'm sure you would have caught a lot of what we caught. BTW, do you remember the "anti-Bible protesters"? Any suspicions that they were 2-3 twi people stationed at the front with placards specifically to look foolish rather than 2-3 people at the front who drove an hour or more to a farm in the middle of nowhere to make a protest specifically against the Bible but not at all against twi with no car parked nearby to take them home when they were done instead of being walking distance to their homes? I bet that's coming back to you now.
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T-Bone
WordWolf, some great points about critical thinking skills…and always a fascinating thing to think about when it comes to asking what is the light-bulb-moment of seeing through TWI’s Christian veneer…of seeing what they have to offer in a new light…seeing it for what it really is…snake oil.
We all have critical thinking skills to some degree or another depending on so many variables – but why does it take some folks longer than others to see through TWI’s bull$hit? probably has a lot to do with your length of involvement and types of experiences...For me, maybe it was a combination of youthful naiveté and my cognitive faculties slowly being recalibrated to the unique world of The Way International …as followers we learn to dismiss any imperfections, dubious behavior, or a shady way of doing things - by making allowances using TWI-metrics: oh, you’re just looking at the flesh, you need to look at the Christ in them…when you are spiritually mature you’ll better understand things like this…the more you work “the word” the more you’ll see the greatness of this…
Maybe the road to that snake oil epiphany is sort of like Keanu Reeves’ character in the sci-fi action film “The Matrix” (this reference has been used at Grease Spot quite a few times – thought I’d use it here for old times’ sake
).He lives a double life – as Thomas Anderson he is a computer programmer – but he’s also a hacker that goes by the name Neo. He believes something is wrong with the world but he can’t quite put his finger on it. The fact that he is a hacker and pursues leads that may provide an answer tells me he’s already started to flex his critical thinking skills. I can relate this to how I first began questioning the status quo of TWI – in the aftermath of the patriarch paper - - I’m embarrassed to say my critical thinking skills were so calibrated for TWI-world that it took something like that maelstrom aftermath to act as an AED to my faculties. It’s a start anyway. You have to begin somewhere.
There’s a point where you stand back and instead of just analyzing a particular incident or a particular doctrine and take a good long look at the whole thing…you take a brave step outside the TWI-mindset…like Neo in “The Matrix” …the turning point…the eye-opener… the epiphany…the snake-oil-reveal for Neo was when he accepted the red pill from Morpheus. When he takes the red pill, the simulated world of the matrix disintegrates and he awakes to find himself in a pod and realizes his own life’s resources have been feeding this elaborate deception.
I think a lifesaver for many folks ensnared in this cult is help from the outside - Waydale, transchat and now Grease Spot are indeed lifesavers – and have helped folks recalibrate their perception of TWI.
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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