I was wondering what he was talking about with polls. I actually think he means that on this site in the forums years ago he may have posted some poll on the forum about people getting something out of PLAF, and some people actually answered but most of us ignored it.
You claim its the most bootlegged, which would mean more than 21 million. Personally, I don't think the ministry has that many followers.
Besides, bootlegging is stealing, you know. So, your saying more than 21 million followers respect the ministry so much that they repeatedly violate the Eighth Commandment, right? Thou shall not steal, right?
Yikes!How can I read, and then respond, to all that? Old as I am, that could run me out of gas!
I’ll go through it slowly and more thoroughly during lulls in the holiday action. Meanwhile, from a quick browsing, I’m impressed at how many people here believe in polls!
Yes I did take a poll.
My belief in the thousands who where blessed more than hurt by PFAL comes from the INFORMAL polls I took involving only several hundreds of grads.
I started around 1987 by calling all the grads I knew (even just a little) by phone. When unlimited long distance plans were invented a few years later my number of grads called per month jumped significantly. When the Internet bloomed I did it by e-mail to MANY more, as well as to grads I did not know. Then, coming to GreaseSpot in 2002, I did it mass production style.
This was totally informal. For the first ten years I focused on discussing (1) what went right, (2) what went wrong, and (3) what can we do about it. I was perplexed at the collapse of the ministry, and was searching far and wide for answers.
Starting in 1998 I added to those 3 items questions to see if they knew about Dr’s last, last, last teaching. The number of NO answers I got there were astonishing. I reported these statistics from my polling here several times.
My informal impressions were that 90% of the people I knew were still very blessed by PFAL, and very surprised and disappointed by the new revelations (1986) of Big Trouble in RiverCity.
In my polling some useful inferences could also be made.
One such inference is from two of my CLOSEST friends. Both of them worked LONGTIME on HQ staff, and the revelations of sexual trouble at HQ was a NEW REVELATION to them too. I only worked at HQ for 2 years, but I kept in close touch with them.
They told me that they never saw anything whatsoever. (Same as me)
They told me they had heard of scant rumors over the years and still saw nothing. (Same as me)
They were perplexed and confused about the scathing reports they started getting in 1986. (Same as me)
They professed being still greatly blessed by PFAL and would trudge on through the difficulties. (Same as me)
We figured (at that time) that there must be a lot of exaggeration in the reports because we had no capacity to understand that both great open good and great hidden evil could be in the same place at the same time.
I increased my capacity to understand this from studying Romans 7, and David, and Solomon.
The inference that I draw from this is that whatever went on at HQ was highly contained in space and time. It didn’t go on often and it didn’t involve a lot of people. That’s how it was kept secret. Kinda like the way it happens in all other organizations of human beings, as the “Me Too” movement is showing.
Okay from the perspective of an informal poll. But to draw reasonable inferences from it, would require substantially more structure and consistency of the questions and a solid grasp on the importance and significance of statistical methods.
For polls to have meaning and to form the basis for reasonable inferences would require... I guess as stated above.
There is an art and a science to polling. Based on solid structure to the questioning, important things can be determined about the success or not of campaigns like PFLAP.
Forget the polls and surverys..........we've got a first-hand, documented account published by the cult itself detailing that victor paul wierwille was so adrift at age 36 that a student from one of Leonard's classes was needed to teach them.
Shattering the myth........that God came down from heaven to speak to veepee.
Shattering the mog-doctrine.........that wierwille was some hand-picked "great one"
Shattering the cult-history........that wierwille "pieced it all together to perfection"
Having been thru seminary and then pastoring at a second church, wierwille still had no faith or touchstone to God's infinite grace and mercy. Mrs. Wierwille's book gives us insight as to how vpw moved from the denominational church structure to its class-based organization. I am still gleefully amused that the cult published this book.
On 12/18/2017 at 3:42 PM, skyrider said:
Mike...............Mrs. Wierwille gave a very different, and extensive, overview of this whole timeline and build-up to B.G. Leonard's class.
.......page 87 (BATS)
"Our Christmas holiday preparations in 1952 were under way. Once more we were decorating the church, and I was putting in many hours helping there. At that time Dr. Wierwille and I noticed that our eight-year-old daughter, Mary was developing a lump under her chin. Within a week another lump had begun developing, under her jawbone. Mary's change in appearance was quite obvious, and people decorating at the church began asking me, "Have you taken her to a doctor?" I had to admit, "No, I haven't." These well-meaning women persisted in asking me about taking her to the doctor to the point that I could no longer answer them patiently. I knew I couldn't stay in harmony with the other helpers, so I thought I'd better do something about this. I called our dentist and made a same-day appointment."
"The dentist saw Mary and with great concern said her problem was not anything in his area of expertise and that I'd better take her to see our physician right away. I had no intention of going to the physician. I didn't want her scarred from surgery, let alone the fact that anything serious could not be cured through the medical know-how of that time. But by going to the dentist, I then had a response when the ladies asked me about taking her to the doctor. I could say, "Yes, I've taken Mary to the doctor," even though the doctor was a dentist, not a physician."
"There was no way of explaining how Dr. Wierwille and I felt about this situation with our daughter because we didn't even know ourselves. We were prayerfully deciding what to do when we agreed that we would ask B. G. Leonard to minister to her. Dr. Wierwille had met him at the convention in Tulsa in December of 1951 and received publications from him following that. But the quality of printing of Leonard's publications was always so very poor that Dr. Wierwille threw his materials away without reading them, the print simply wasn't readable."
"At the same time that Mary and I were returning home from our appointment with the dentist, my husband was burning his office wastepaper, and one of the pamphlets from B. G. Leonardwas on the top of the pile after he turned over the wastepaper basket. He pulled the pamphlet out of the fire to keep the address. So we referred to that address, (page 88) got the phone number, and called B.G. Leonard in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, to ask him to minister healing to Mary. After praying with B.G. over the phone that day, we just thanked the Father for healing her."
"At the time we called him , B.G. Leonard was in the middle of teaching a three-week class called 'The Gifts of the Spirit,' so he couldn't come to see us; but he added on the phone that if we needed any more help we should call Lee Vayle, a student of his living in Florida, who would personally come to help us. B.G., as we lovingly came to call him, assured us that Mary would be all right. We knew that he could only have known that by revelation, so Dr. Wierwille and I relaxed and were greatly comforted. In a matter of a few days, Mary's one lump went away, and in another week the other one disappeared also."
"Since B.G. mentioned it, Dr. Wierwille thought Lee Vayle from West Palm Beach, Florida, should come to Van Wert and teach us more about the manifestations of holy spirit. So in the excited afterglow of Mary's healing, we invited people to join us who were interested in this field to also learn from him when he came in the middle of January 1953. Some, but not all, of our congregation were interested."
"When Lee Vayle came, he reassured us about Mary's healing and taught us more about the manifestations of holy spirit. We gathered in our living room with those interested, and Lee ministered holy spirit to anyone who had not yet received it into manifestation, which included Rhoda Becker. Lee Vayle instructed us from his knowledge of holy spirit, mainly about the inspiration manifestations of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy."
~~~~~~~~~~~
page 90 (BATS)....
"Ever since the Divine Healing convention in Tulsa in December 1951, and since Rev. B.G. Leonard prayed with us for Mary's healingover the phone in December 1952, Dr. Wierwille's hunger for more knowledge about God's healing power was piqued. In late winter, February 1953,Dr. Wierwille felt the need to spend time with B.G. Leonard. He related, 'I called B.G. Leonard on the telephone. He told me he loved me, but that I couldn't come up to see him because he was in the middle of teaching a class. I took the next plane to Calgary, Alberta, Canada anyway.' ......."
"B.G. Leonard called his work in Calgary 'The Christian Training Centre.' Dr. Wierwille described his first impressions there: 'I walked in and B.G. was in the middle of announcements. They must have lasted an hour and a half. Then he took his violin and played hymns for a while. When he finally started preaching, he taught his heart out for another hour and a half. Then everyone left and I sat there. He said, 'I thought I told you that you couldn't come.' and I said, 'Yeah, but I didn't hear you."
Picture on page 90........February 1953 Class Photo: B.G. Leonard seated in middle of front row, flanked by two women on each side, and three men in back row (vpw in middle of back row).
Meanwhile thousands and thousands remain blessed (to some degree) by PFAL, and more is to come.
Don't you mean hundreds? Which probably boils down to tens.
Meanwhile, by your own admission (Did you know that PFAL is possibly the most bootlegged video item in history?, remember?) over 21 million are stealing the class. When I took PLAF, it was $67. Let's see, 21 million at $67 a pop. Yah, people really love the ministry and the class. They love it so much they're cheating it out of $201 million in funds.
Saint Vic must be rolling in his grave.
11 hours ago, So_crates said:
You mean even more than Avatar? (Which was bootlegged 21 million times since its release.)
You claim its the most bootlegged, which would mean more than 21 million. Personally, I don't think the ministry has that many followers.
Besides, bootlegging is stealing, you know. So, your saying more than 21 million followers respect the ministry so much that they repeatedly violate the Eighth Commandment, right? Thou shall not steal, right?
Forget the polls and surverys..........we've got a first-hand, documented account published by the cult itself detailing that victor paul wierwille was so adrift at age 36 that a student from one of Leonard's classes was needed to teach them.
Shattering the myth........that God came down from heaven to speak to veepee.
Shattering the mog-doctrine.........that wierwille was some hand-picked "great one"
Shattering the cult-history........that wierwille "pieced it all together to perfection"
Having been thru seminary and then pastoring at a second church, wierwille still had no faith or touchstone to God's infinite grace and mercy. Mrs. Wierwille's book gives us insight as to how vpw moved from the denominational church structure to its class-based organization. I am still gleefully amused that the cult published this book.
Sky, even back in the 50's, VPW was a bully. He was told not to come, but he came anyway. What an arrogant young man! I would have told him to leave; the class had already started. Rude, and a bully to boot; that was VPW.
Perhaps wierwille’s penchant for thievery kinda shows through in his determination to barge in on BG’s class...I think wierwille outdid Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8:18,19 - Simon offered the apostles money to see if he could do what they did - but wierwille just steals the info from BG as well as others, fabricates a story of the voice of god and a Snow Job to pursue the life of a fraudulent apostle.
Thought I should add that in cobbling together his own class (PFAL) wierwille may bear another similarity to Simon the Sorcerer when he included the “magic” of believing...alas the snow job continues.
skyrider, I'd still like to hear about that bullet item you posted on a BOT confrontation in 1984.
I'd like to hear how you claim PLAF is the most bootlegged video in history, yet you refuse to acknowledge the theft taking place by those doing the bootlegging.
However, it is ironic: Saint Vic stole from a wide variety of source to construct the class and now bootleggers are stealing the PLAF from the ministry.
However, it is ironic: Saint Vic stole from a wide variety of source to construct the class and now bootleggers are stealing the PLAF from the ministry.
Funny thing about plaf is the way international doesnt care about it anymore either. To them its irrelevant because they have the whitewashed, brand new way of abundance and power class series thats relevant to our day and time. Remember folks, one class series fits all!
Ive followed along on this thread and am enjoying the ride. Again, i went and read BG Leonards website, and again, its obvious that wirrwille ripped the guy off. Right down to wierwolfs snowjob story of when God audibly spoke to him.
From Rev. Leonard’s foreword to his bookGIFTS OF THE SPIRIT:
“One day God spoke to me. “If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion.” I believed God. For months I waited before His presence in solitude. During those wonderful days, He revealed the truth to me concerning the gifts of the Spirit. As He did, these things were proven by acting upon the knowledge thus received, and by examining the results in light of His Word.”
I'd like to hear how you claim PLAF is the most bootlegged video in history, yet you refuse to acknowledge the theft taking place by those doing the bootlegging.
However, it is ironic: Saint Vic stole from a wide variety of source to construct the class and now bootleggers are stealing the PLAF from the ministry.
So_crates,
I have a very different opinion than yours, and most here, as to what constitutes intellectual ownership.
For one angle, I've thought deeply on this topic for over 50 years, since High School, and several years before PFAL.I think, from what I've observed here, hardly any deep thought has taken place.
I would very much like to glean some additional knowledge on this topic here at GreaseSpot, so several times since 2002 I’ve thrown out bait for anyone else who has thought deeper on intellectual ownership and originality. Because this has been a lifelong pursuit of mine, I glean knowledge from many odd sources.
If any of you (plural) HAVE done any looking into this, the negative emotions of wanting SO much more to silence or nullify me seem to precluded your taking my bait and having a cool intellectual discussion about this.
I’ve done this with other subjects here. The mirror riddle is an example. When I go to Starbucks I bring up the mirror riddle for deeper research into it. The more I discuss it, the deeper I know it, and the more detail I see. It’s a little more difficult, though, to bring up originality at Starbucks, so I do it here… and often.
So…… So_crates, if you or anyone else here who constantly bring up plagiarism etc, ACTUALLY DO have some deeper thoughts as to how originalityand “creativity” work, then this is your chance to discuss this obscure topic a little.
Here’s a hint to deeper thoughts on originality:IT’S MOSTLY AN ILLUSION.
Discuss a little.
…
I’ll wait.
…
Ok, now add to that angle, the tremendous complication of God being an owner of some intellectual property.Food for deep thought.
More food: this topic comes up in the US Constitution, and in the main part, not the Amendments. That says a lot. It was a very fundamental idea, and very deep topic for the Founding Fathers 250 years ago.
***************
P.S. A great book to augment this topic for any genuinely interested is Arthur Koestler’s “Act of Creation.” This is the same Arthur Koestler from “Thirteenth Tribe” fame. I was reading it in the days I was witnessed to in 1971.
It’s too bad most grads’ introduction to Arthur Koestler was from “Thirteenth Tribe.”He was a profound thinker, and I was familiar with several of his works well before he wrote 13th T and the ministry promoted it.At one time he was an intellectual mover and shaker in intellectual world.His 13th T came later in his life, was pretty odd for him, and lost him a lot of followers, and he also had another oddball book in his later life.
But his “Act of Creation” was a masterpiece, and is actually used by writing and comedy workshops for stimulating creative thinking. This practice may have spread to other arts. It’s been a decade or two since I peeked there.
I'd like to hear how you claim PLAF is the most bootlegged video in history, yet you refuse to acknowledge the theft taking place by those doing the bootlegging.
However, it is ironic: Saint Vic stole from a wide variety of source to construct the class and now bootleggers are stealing the PLAF from the ministry.
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
skyrider
Thanks guys….. life is good, all is well. It’s good to see GSC continuing to sound the alarm as we move into the 2023 new year. Even though twi tries to guilt advanced class grads and corps to *
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T-Bone
Grace, let's just say he has credibility issues.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone,
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chockfull
I was wondering what he was talking about with polls. I actually think he means that on this site in the forums years ago he may have posted some poll on the forum about people getting something out of PLAF, and some people actually answered but most of us ignored it.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Two words sum up the polling techniques and results in the Mike/Dictor Dead News Poll:
CONFIRMATION BIAS.
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waysider
Oh, pray, do tell. May I ask what other items are on the list ...and is quantitative data available?
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So_crates
You mean even more than Avatar? (Which was bootlegged 21 million times since its release.)
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/avatar-most-pirated-movie-all-time-247499
You claim its the most bootlegged, which would mean more than 21 million. Personally, I don't think the ministry has that many followers.
Besides, bootlegging is stealing, you know. So, your saying more than 21 million followers respect the ministry so much that they repeatedly violate the Eighth Commandment, right? Thou shall not steal, right?
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, I thought you were going to say Bull Shucks! LMAO!
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Mike
Meanwhile thousands and thousands remain blessed (to some degree) by PFAL, and more is to come.
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Grace Valerie Claire
And many of us wish we had never gotten involved with TWI. Merry Christmas.
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Rocky
Okay from the perspective of an informal poll. But to draw reasonable inferences from it, would require substantially more structure and consistency of the questions and a solid grasp on the importance and significance of statistical methods.
For polls to have meaning and to form the basis for reasonable inferences would require... I guess as stated above.
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Rocky
Actually confirmation bias often equates to bull$hit.
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Rocky
There is an art and a science to polling. Based on solid structure to the questioning, important things can be determined about the success or not of campaigns like PFLAP.
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waysider
Regarding polls and surveys: Studies have shown that 47.9% of all statistics are simply made-up numbers.
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T-Bone
I wonder how many folks would participate in a survey if you stood outside a movie theater with a sign “free Star Wars pollster”
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skyrider
Forget the polls and surverys..........we've got a first-hand, documented account published by the cult itself detailing that victor paul wierwille was so adrift at age 36 that a student from one of Leonard's classes was needed to teach them.
Having been thru seminary and then pastoring at a second church, wierwille still had no faith or touchstone to God's infinite grace and mercy. Mrs. Wierwille's book gives us insight as to how vpw moved from the denominational church structure to its class-based organization. I am still gleefully amused that the cult published this book.
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So_crates
Don't you mean hundreds? Which probably boils down to tens.
Meanwhile, by your own admission (Did you know that PFAL is possibly the most bootlegged video item in history?, remember?) over 21 million are stealing the class. When I took PLAF, it was $67. Let's see, 21 million at $67 a pop. Yah, people really love the ministry and the class. They love it so much they're cheating it out of $201 million in funds.
Saint Vic must be rolling in his grave.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, even back in the 50's, VPW was a bully. He was told not to come, but he came anyway. What an arrogant young man! I would have told him to leave; the class had already started. Rude, and a bully to boot; that was VPW.
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Bolshevik
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T-Bone
Perhaps wierwille’s penchant for thievery kinda shows through in his determination to barge in on BG’s class...I think wierwille outdid Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8:18,19 - Simon offered the apostles money to see if he could do what they did - but wierwille just steals the info from BG as well as others, fabricates a story of the voice of god and a Snow Job
to pursue the life of a fraudulent apostle.
Thought I should add that in cobbling together his own class (PFAL) wierwille may bear another similarity to Simon the Sorcerer when he included the “magic” of believing...alas the snow job continues.
Edited by T-BoneAdded details
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Mike
skyrider, I'd still like to hear about that bullet item you posted on a BOT confrontation in 1984.
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So_crates
I'd like to hear how you claim PLAF is the most bootlegged video in history, yet you refuse to acknowledge the theft taking place by those doing the bootlegging.
However, it is ironic: Saint Vic stole from a wide variety of source to construct the class and now bootleggers are stealing the PLAF from the ministry.
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OldSkool
Funny thing about plaf is the way international doesnt care about it anymore either. To them its irrelevant because they have the whitewashed, brand new way of abundance and power class series thats relevant to our day and time. Remember folks, one class series fits all!
Ive followed along on this thread and am enjoying the ride. Again, i went and read BG Leonards website, and again, its obvious that wirrwille ripped the guy off. Right down to wierwolfs snowjob story of when God audibly spoke to him.
From Rev. Leonard’s foreword to his book GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT:
“One day God spoke to me. “If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion.” I believed God. For months I waited before His presence in solitude. During those wonderful days, He revealed the truth to me concerning the gifts of the Spirit. As He did, these things were proven by acting upon the knowledge thus received, and by examining the results in light of His Word.”
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Mike
So_crates,
I have a very different opinion than yours, and most here, as to what constitutes intellectual ownership.
For one angle, I've thought deeply on this topic for over 50 years, since High School, and several years before PFAL. I think, from what I've observed here, hardly any deep thought has taken place.
I would very much like to glean some additional knowledge on this topic here at GreaseSpot, so several times since 2002 I’ve thrown out bait for anyone else who has thought deeper on intellectual ownership and originality. Because this has been a lifelong pursuit of mine, I glean knowledge from many odd sources.
If any of you (plural) HAVE done any looking into this, the negative emotions of wanting SO much more to silence or nullify me seem to precluded your taking my bait and having a cool intellectual discussion about this.
I’ve done this with other subjects here. The mirror riddle is an example. When I go to Starbucks I bring up the mirror riddle for deeper research into it. The more I discuss it, the deeper I know it, and the more detail I see. It’s a little more difficult, though, to bring up originality at Starbucks, so I do it here… and often.
So…… So_crates, if you or anyone else here who constantly bring up plagiarism etc, ACTUALLY DO have some deeper thoughts as to how originality and “creativity” work, then this is your chance to discuss this obscure topic a little.
Here’s a hint to deeper thoughts on originality: IT’S MOSTLY AN ILLUSION.
Discuss a little.
…
I’ll wait.
…
Ok, now add to that angle, the tremendous complication of God being an owner of some intellectual property. Food for deep thought.
More food: this topic comes up in the US Constitution, and in the main part, not the Amendments. That says a lot. It was a very fundamental idea, and very deep topic for the Founding Fathers 250 years ago.
***************
P.S. A great book to augment this topic for any genuinely interested is Arthur Koestler’s “Act of Creation.” This is the same Arthur Koestler from “Thirteenth Tribe” fame. I was reading it in the days I was witnessed to in 1971.
It’s too bad most grads’ introduction to Arthur Koestler was from “Thirteenth Tribe.” He was a profound thinker, and I was familiar with several of his works well before he wrote 13th T and the ministry promoted it. At one time he was an intellectual mover and shaker in intellectual world. His 13th T came later in his life, was pretty odd for him, and lost him a lot of followers, and he also had another oddball book in his later life.
But his “Act of Creation” was a masterpiece, and is actually used by writing and comedy workshops for stimulating creative thinking. This practice may have spread to other arts. It’s been a decade or two since I peeked there.Link to comment
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Grace Valerie Claire
SOC, wow!! I needed a good laugh!! Thanks!
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