Two memorable quotes from Voltaire, one of the "gurus" of the Founding Fathers of the USA:
1) "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
2) "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
This is what "many thousands" of Piffle grads are thankful they learned from the class. And, over 98% remain thankful they left, although most of them wonder why it took them so long to do so! Mike, you believe in the absurdities and delusional fantasies of a dead sociopathic, malignant, narcissist, who was also a feckless drunk, and serial sexual batterer. By his own doctrines he died of "devil spirit possession". He was a criminal and deviant. YOU continue to demonstrate your continued belief in dictor paul's absurdities. Thank god that the only atrocities you are committing seem to be verbal and written. It's been a long road for you pilgrim! You persist at NOT using any exit. I guess the only other option to finally end your futile search for Wierwille greatness on the .... highway is for you to run outta gas. Dic's got a jack, but he's NOT gonna help YOU. You're getting old Mike! Praying for you to reach maturity before you empty your tank.................peace.
Thanks again, DWBH........
Yeah......."believe absurdities"
Namely......."the law of believing" wherein believing equals receiving
Pursuing "God first" is to drop everything from goals, family, friends, career, etc. and join a cult movement
Discounting all scrutiny of wierwille's plagiarism, degree-mill doctorate, drunkenness, ineptness, and sexual predation
Never able to question or criticize wierwille-mandates, skewed research or classes/programs
The "true household of God" doctrine that countered ever aspect of the One Body of Christ
Weaponizing verses such as "mark&avoid" to shut the door on dissenting voices
And........."commit atrocities"
The definition of atrocity..........behavior or condition that is inferior, dismaying, appalling or offensive
Every twi-class and program was skewed/marginalized to overthrow individual thought and control......
Inferior classes.......targeting individuals to sway them to allegiance towards cult, not God
Appalling conditions were not addressed on WOW program, nor corps program
Herd mentality......droning of information........static conformity......adding to cult culture
Offensive to individual growth, liberty, prosperity, lives and career.......stagnating all potential
I think Mike mistakes us folks here with those who want to impress PLAF grads or WAP grads or whatever. Nope Mikey, that would be those other folks who started up Dictor Clone ministries. They've popped up like Star Wars Clone Armies - all fueled by former Way leaders who have shockingly been mistreated by the Way. Whod've thunk it? In such a pure leadership nurturing environment?
They range widely from Animatronics look-alikes to class offering varieties. Actually they all have some of the same things in common. They all seem to offer some variation of format where you can sit static and listen to them talk at you in some format - class, teaching, etc. etc. And they are all in need of donations to continue God's work. So all they are in need of is some poor fool to sit in front of their static presentation and send them money. They are the Non-Denominational Internet Ex-Way Beggars. Look at me. Donate to me. Take my class. We're exactly the same except better with no politics. We welcome all Christians to do the same, sit static in our living room and listen to us talk at you.
In my opinion, it's more like a syndrome suggested by Hunter Thompson refering to jackrabbits.
I'll let Hunter, from Fear And Loathing On The Campaign Trail '72, lay it out:
I have spent enough time in jack rabbit country to know that most of them lead pretty dull lives; they are bored with their daily routines: eat, f#ck, sleep, hop around a bush now and then....No wonder some of them drift over the line into cheap thrills once in a while; there has to be a powerful adrenalin rush in crouching by the side of a road, waiting for the next set of headlights to come along, then streaking out of the bushes with split-second timing and making it across to the other side just inches in front of the speeding front wheels.
In my opinion, it's more like a syndrome suggested by Hunter Thompson refering to jackrabbits.
I'll let Hunter, from Fear And Loathing On The Campaign Trail '72, lay it out:
I have spent enough time in jack rabbit country to know that most of them lead pretty dull lives; they are bored with their daily routines: eat, f#ck, sleep, hop around a bush now and then....No wonder some of them drift over the line into cheap thrills once in a while; there has to be a powerful adrenalin rush in crouching by the side of a road, waiting for the next set of headlights to come along, then streaking out of the bushes with split-second timing and making it across to the other side just inches in front of the speeding front wheels.
Off topic here - your post reminded me of the little bunnies that “terrorize” our neighborhood:
one dark morning as I approached a stop sign on my way to work - I saw something in the middle of the road - couldn’t make it out even with flicking on my brights - until I got close enough - it was a bunny sitting up on his hind legs...as I slowed to a stop and pulled way to the right I kept thinking be prepared to jam on the brakes if he darts to my side....but he didn’t...just sat there upright in the middle of the road like he was working a toll booth.
Another time - it was mid-morning- I was walking our two dogs toward that same intersection- when to our left a bunny came running out from the side of a house and darted right across our path - about 4 feet in front of us; happened so fast the dogs didn’t have time to react in typical game-on bark-fest.... but simply jerked their heads to the right, following the action - I could see a little thought bubble above their heads with the caption “what the fvck was that !?!?” ...yeah, daring little critters they are for sure.
Yikes!How can I read, and then respond, to all that? Old as I am, that could run me out of gas!
I’ll go through it slowly and more thoroughly during lulls in the holiday action. Meanwhile, from a quick browsing, I’m impressed at how many people here believe in polls!
Yes I did take a poll.
My belief in the thousands who where blessed more than hurt by PFAL comes from the INFORMAL polls I took involving only several hundreds of grads.
I started around 1987 by calling all the grads I knew (even just a little) by phone. When unlimited long distance plans were invented a few years later my number of grads called per month jumped significantly. When the Internet bloomed I did it by e-mail to MANY more, as well as to grads I did not know. Then, coming to GreaseSpot in 2002, I did it mass production style.
This was totally informal. For the first ten years I focused on discussing (1) what went right, (2) what went wrong, and (3) what can we do about it. I was perplexed at the collapse of the ministry, and was searching far and wide for answers.
Starting in 1998 I added to those 3 items questions to see if they knew about Dr’s last, last, last teaching. The number of NO answers I got there were astonishing. I reported these statistics from my polling here several times.
My informal impressions were that 90% of the people I knew were still very blessed by PFAL, and very surprised and disappointed by the new revelations (1986) of Big Trouble in RiverCity.
In my polling some useful inferences could also be made.
One such inference is from two of my CLOSEST friends. Both of them worked LONGTIME on HQ staff, and the revelations of sexual trouble at HQ was a NEW REVELATION to them too. I only worked at HQ for 2 years, but I kept in close touch with them.
They told me that they never saw anything whatsoever. (Same as me)
They told me they had heard of scant rumors over the years and still saw nothing. (Same as me)
They were perplexed and confused about the scathing reports they started getting in 1986. (Same as me)
They professed being still greatly blessed by PFAL and would trudge on through the difficulties. (Same as me)
We figured (at that time) that there must be a lot of exaggeration in the reports because we had no capacity to understand that both great open good and great hidden evil could be in the same place at the same time.
I increased my capacity to understand this from studying Romans 7, and David, and Solomon.
The inference that I draw from this is that whatever went on at HQ was highly contained in space and time. It didn’t go on often and it didn’t involve a lot of people. That’s how it was kept secret. Kinda like the way it happens in all other organizations of human beings, as the “Me Too” movement is showing.
Well, I’m impressed…say, have you ever done any PR work for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston, concerning the widespread and systemic child sex abuse by numerous Roman Catholic priests? I recognize your style.
Well, I’m impressed…say, have you ever done any PR work for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston, concerning the widespread and systemic child sex abuse by numerous Roman Catholic priests? I recognize your style.
Well, I am not impressed...with your ability to deal with the points I just brought up.
My belief in the thousands who where blessed more than hurt by PFAL comes from the INFORMAL polls I took involving only several hundreds of grads.
I started around 1987 by calling all the grads I knew (even just a little) by phone. When unlimited long distance plans were invented a few years later my number of grads called per month jumped significantly. When the Internet bloomed I did it by e-mail to MANY more, as well as to grads I did not know. Then, coming to GreaseSpot in 2002, I did it mass production style.
This was totally informal. For the first ten years I focused on discussing (1) what went right, (2) what went wrong, and (3) what can we do about it. I was perplexed at the collapse of the ministry, and was searching far and wide for answers.
Starting in 1998 I added to those 3 items questions to see if they knew about Dr’s last, last, last teaching. The number of NO answers I got there were astonishing. I reported these statistics from my polling here several times.
My informal impressions were that 90% of the people I knew were still very blessed by PFAL, and very surprised and disappointed by the new revelations (1986) of Big Trouble in RiverCity.
Informal is right, and therefore not accurate.
As anyone who has dealt with polls knows: How you ask the question has a lot to do with the results you get.
You, of course, understand that "What blessed you about the class?" will garner a different response than "Did the class bless you?"
That's why most polling companies list the questions they asked on their website. The don't list vague statements like "(1) what went right, (2)what went wrong, and (3)what can we do about it."
So, what were the exact questions you asked?
Second, when did you take this poll? Right after they took the class perhaps? And what did you expect them to say after they spent all that money, Go back and retake the poll now, I'll bet your results will be very different.
Also, how many thousand? Where did you get the grads names?
Somehow I find it hard to believe Way Nash would give you the names and numbers of thousands of grads. Further, I find it harder to believe you have nothing better to do than call people on the phone conducting an informal poll.
As anyone who has dealt with polls knows: How you ask the question has a lot to do with the results you get.
You, of course, understand that "What blessed you about the class?" will garner a different response than "Did the class bless you?"
That's why most polling companies list the questions they asked on their website. The don't list vague statements like "(1) what went right, (2)what went wrong, and (3)what can we do about it."
So, what were the exact questions you asked?
Second, when did you take this poll? Right after they took the class perhaps? And what did you expect them to say after they spent all that money, Go back and retake the poll now, I'll bet your results will be very different.
Also, how many thousand? Where did you get the grads names?
Somehow I find it hard to believe Way Nash would give you the names and numbers of thousands of grads. Further, I find it harder to believe you have nothing better to do than call people on the phone conducting an informal poll.
So_crates, are you pretending that if I had done my polling more formally and more scientifically that THEN you'd believe it....? Oh, really? But for my lack of rigor you just can't believe MANY thousands were , and STILL ARE blessed by PFAL? I'm so glad to see your confidence in proper statistics.
***
In 2017 I saw two such grads take some slightly risky stands on their loyalty to PFAL. Both of them, independent of each other, posted the entire video PFAL class on two different websites. Many hundreds grads flocked there and were able to download the files. One site was taken down several months later, and I think the other is still up. I read the comments of many grads whose names were totally unfamiliar to me. It sounded just like the batch of grads I hung out with 30 years ago. Many HUNDREDS of grads have been copying and circulating that class for 30 years now. The existence of PDF versions of the collateral books was announced HERE and proved very easy to find since 2003. Did you know that PFAL is possibly the most bootlegged video item in history?
I get the impression most most GreaseSpot posters have been doing the exact opposite of me for the past 30 years. I seek out positive, thankful grads and I find them. I get the impression most of you folks have been cutting off all contact with most grads in general, and especially with positive, thankful grads. Can you name 2 close friends who are positive grads who still are fluent with PFAL ideas? I can assure you with complete credibility, that I do hang out with PLENTY of negative, unthankful grads.
I never became insular when TWI was cooking during the 70s and early 80s. I saw lots of grads do that, and I also saw many fall into wierwille worship.
My impression is that the unawareness here of thousands and thousands of thankful grads is due to continuing the insularity and the intellectual inbreeding I mentioned earlier. It's your opportunity to convince me otherwise..
So_crates, are you pretending that if I had done my polling more formally and more scientifically that THEN you'd believe it....? Oh, really? But for my lack of rigor you just can't believe MANY thousands were , and STILL ARE blessed by PFAL? I'm so glad to see your confidence in proper statistics.
No pretending to it, dude. I can phrase the questions equally in such a way every one of those grads you claim raved about it, will complain about it. That's the problem with informal polls, people pretty much get the information they want. Or have you never heard that everyone wants to think of themselves as cooperative so they give experimenters and pollers what they think they want to hear. Or have you never heard of the Hawthorne Effect?
Second, most people still in The Way will laud PLAF to high heaven. Only when they leave will they express their true feeling about it. Why? Partially social pressure. Mostly the ministry doesn't encourage free thought (as your unwillingness to acknowledge Saint Vic's evil nature proves time and time again.)
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many thousands? What questions asked? Where did you get thousands of grads names and numbers? What did you do with the information?
...a different "it" is involved.
My impression is that you are pretending to seriously consider my results IF IT WERE THE CASE that it was done scientifically.
If a poll you respected were done, and many thousands of blessed PFAL fans turned up to really exist, THEN what would you do? Changer your theology? No. You'd find another way to deny the facts.
Here's another indicator that proves the many thousands do exist: how many clone ministries and mini-ministries are there now that mimic PFAL? I'd estimate in the hundreds, and many of them have bootleg PFAL videos and books. For each of these small fellowships there are probably around 5 to 10 attendees, usually old grads. Do the math.
...a different "it" is involved.
My impression is that you are pretending to seriously consider my results IF IT WERE THE CASE that it was done scientifically.
If a poll you respected were done, and many thousands of blessed PFAL fans turned up to really exist, THEN what would you do? Changer your theology? No. You'd find another way to deny the facts.
Here's another indicator that proves the many thousands do exist: how many clone ministries and mini-ministries are there now that mimic PFAL? I'd estimate in the hundreds, and many of them have bootleg PFAL videos and books. For each of these small fellowships there are probably around 5 to 10 attendees, usually old grads. Do the math.
Your doing a nice two-step, Mike, but I'm getting a little tired of dancing.
Stop dodging the questions:
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many thousands? What questions asked? Where did you get thousands of grads names and numbers? What did you do with the information?
Your doing a nice two-step, Mike, but I'm getting a little tired of dancing.
Stop dodging the questions:
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many thousands? What questions asked? Where did you get thousands of grads names and numbers? What did you do with the information?
I think you need to re-read my post. You seem to have missed a couple of points.
I used simple extrapolation to go from the hundreds I interviewed, to the thousands.
Are you saying that you WOULD change your theology if it were proved to you that many thousands are STILL thankful for PFAL?
I think you need to re-read my post. You seem to have missed a couple of points.
I used simple extrapolation to go from the hundreds I interviewed, to the thousands.
Are you saying that you WOULD change your theology if it were proved to you that many thousands are STILL thankful for PFAL?
Weren't you the one talking about credibility a few post back.
I've asked you three time about an informal poll you've claimed to have done. Specifically:
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many hundreds? What questions asked? Where did you get hundreds of grads names and numbers? What did you do with the information?
Now, here's my conundrum: You mention an informal poll. When asked for further information, you dodge. You bring up other instances. Then you admit the thousands were actually hundreds.
Where do you think your credibility is with me?
Why should I believe any other instance you gave me?
This board has 17,822 members. Most of them are unhappy with PLAF (If they weren't they wouldn't be here). I think that more than the hundreds you claim you polled.
Weren't you the one talking about credibility a few post back.
I've asked you three time about an informal poll you've claimed to have done. Specifically:
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many thousands? I posted that I interviewed hundreds. What questions asked? I posted that most there were 3 questions, and a 4th was added in 1998. Where did you get thousands of grads names I never posted that. Read it again. and numbers I posted through interpolation the second time, the first post I left it as an obvious inference for an alert reader. Please read it again, with coffee and phone off. What did you do with the information I posted (again through inference) that I pondered it deeply, and later incorporated it into 5000 posts on GreasSpot for 5 years. I got many positive e-mails and PMs from positive grads who didn't want to post or even read much of the negativity. They were repulsed by it, but loved my posts. Radio stations and TV stations figure that for every POSITIVE letter someone takes the time to write, there are MANY people who think exactly the same way, but who don't take or have the time. This is another form of interpolation that polster hip people know.
Now, here's my problem: You mention an informal poll. When asked for further information, you dodge. I posted a lot you seem to have missed. You bring up other instances. Then you admit the thousands were actually hundreds. I posted that UP FRONT. There was no "then you posted" to it.
Where do you think your credibility is with me? I posted it. Zero for informal poll, zero for formal, perfect poll. You can interpolate the rest.
Why should I believe any other instance you gave me? Well, when peoples' broken cisterns start running dry, they often try out something really new. Make a mental note, that if all goes South for you someday, MAYBE one of those PDF collaterals that are abundantly available would do you some good.
This board has close to 18,000 members. Most of them are unhappy with PLAF. I think that more than the hundreds you claim you polled. That's really interesting... sort of. But I have to get to work. I'd love to hear more of your 18,000 voice choir, though.
Weren't you the one talking about credibility a few post back.
I've asked you three time about an informal poll you've claimed to have done. Specifically:
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many thousands? I posted that I interviewed hundreds.
---Okay, hundreds. That's a far cry from thousands.
What questions asked?I posted that most there were 3 questions, and a 4th was added in 1998.
---No, you posted question stated vaguely. I'm wanting specifics. Not (1) what went right, (2) what went wrong, and (3) what can we do about it. How specifically did you ask for the information.
Where did you get thousands of grads names I never posted that. Read it again.
---Never said you posted that. It's a logical question that comes out of the course of the conversation. Now, rather than dodge, what's the answer?
and numbers I posted through interpolation the second time, the first post I left it as an obvious inference for an alert reader. Please read it again, with coffee and phone off.
---What was that you were saying about arguments directed at the man a few post back? However, your snarkiness doesn't get you off the hook it's a legitimate question deserving a legitimate answer. So try again, without interpolation. Give me a straight answer. Or don't you have one.
What did you do with the information I posted (again through inference) that I pondered it deeply, and later incorporated it into 5000 posts on GreasSpot for 5 years. I got many positive e-mails and PMs from positive grads who didn't want to post or even read much of the negativity. They were repulsed by it, but loved my posts. Radio stations and TV stations figure that for every POSITIVE letter someone takes the time to write, there are MANY people who think exactly the same way, but who don't take or have the time. This is another form of interpolation that polster hip people know.
----So, we get to the real reason your here: To impress others in your twig.
However, I do find it funny that they complain about negativity, yet they still come here to read the posts. And isn't it amusing that those who whine about negativity directed at The Way are being so negative about GS. What's up? Don't like the facts getting out?
Now, here's my problem: You mention an informal poll. When asked for further information, you dodge. I posted a lot you seem to have missed.
----Or I didn't miss anything and your dodging again. Maybe if you'd give straight answers to questions rather than going off on irrelevant tangents, thing would go a lot smoother.
You bring up other instances. Then you admit the thousands were actually hundreds. I posted that UP FRONT. There was no "then you posted" to it.
---This is apparently a definition of "up front" I'm not familiar with. It wasn't until I started questioning you "thousands" claim that you admitted it was only hundreds. That's hardly "up front"
Where do you think your credibility is with me? I posted it. Zero for informal poll, zero for formal, perfect poll. You can interpolate the rest.
---You forgot zero with people who aren't "up front" with me
Why should I believe any other instance you gave me? Well, when peoples' broken cisterns start running dry, they often try out something really new. Make a mental note, that if all goes South for you someday, MAYBE one of those PDF collaterals that are abundantly available would do you some good.
--- Again, what was that you were saying about arguments directed at the man a few post back? Yah, PLAF, it did wonders the 3+ times I took it--Not! As did the Intermediate--Not! Just so you know: I will never have anything to do with PLAF or The Way again. What you think? I want people around who are going to nose into my affairs? Who have nothing better to do then yell at me? Who expect me to hand over my income? You think I want false friends who claim we are a family, then at the first sign of trouble they disappear? No thanks, you can keep it.
However, when you finally get around to admitting to yourself what Saint Vic was really all about, GS will be here.
This board has close to 18,000 members. Most of them are unhappy with PLAF. I think that more than the hundreds you claim you polled. That's really interesting... sort of. But I have to get to work. I'd love to hear more of your 18,000 voice choir, though.
---And your "hundreds" naturally aren't a chorus all collectively whining the same tune? Keep up the huberis, ace. Pride comes before the fall
I increased my capacity to understand this from studying Romans 7, and David, and Solomon.
The inference that I draw from this is that whatever went on at HQ was highly contained in space and time. It didn’t go on often and it didn’t involve a lot of people. That’s how it was kept secret. Kinda like the way it happens in all other organizations of human beings, as the “Me Too” movement is showing.
Mike I must say those 3 things you say "increased your capacity to understand this" is somewhat alarming.
For instance - the closing verse of Romans 7
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
When you combine this with records of David - specifically David and Bathsheba, as well as Solomon's hundreds of wives, you get into a territory of thought that cannot be described other than "enablement". In David's story, there was a prophet to confront him.
I can relate to a number of your points in this previous posts, until you came to that which I quoted. I can't relate to that at all. I don't think that verse in Romans is talking about a duality of ethics being acceptable to God. That is so strange. I think where you and the Way need to be living is in the book of I John.
The closest thing I could even relate that to is I recently watched a Dave Chappelle comedy clip on Netflix, and he was doing this routine about pitching a sit-com idea to a Texan about a super-hero who rapes but he saves. Then he tied it in to his own strange emotions about Bill Cosby - being one of the first black pioneers in comedy that he grew up to as a role model, and dealing with the truth about him coming out recently.
In my opinion, it's more like a syndrome suggested by Hunter Thompson refering to jackrabbits.
I'll let Hunter, from Fear And Loathing On The Campaign Trail '72, lay it out:
I have spent enough time in jack rabbit country to know that most of them lead pretty dull lives; they are bored with their daily routines: eat, f#ck, sleep, hop around a bush now and then....No wonder some of them drift over the line into cheap thrills once in a while; there has to be a powerful adrenalin rush in crouching by the side of a road, waiting for the next set of headlights to come along, then streaking out of the bushes with split-second timing and making it across to the other side just inches in front of the speeding front wheels.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
Sorry what's a thread like this without a quote from "Fear and Loathing" ???? Right?
A follow up to my Archdiocese of Boston reference in previous post and how it relates here…for those not familiar with the scandal the Boston Globe newspaper brought to light - the Boston Globe revealed the efforts of the Boston Archdiocese to cover-up the pattern of sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests in Massachusetts - - you might want to catch the movie Spotlight an intensely thrilling crime drama that portrays some of the highlights of that story…As far as the topic of this thread goes…I just don’t think anyone needs to apply a fresh coat of paint to the whited sepulchers of New Knoxville.
Thanks for the Mrs. W data. I have a Xerox copy of her book, but haven’t looked at it yet. I do desire to be informed by as much data as possible; time permitting.
Mike........I find your credibility sorely lacking when you "have a Xerox copy of Mrs. Wierwille's book from 1996 and haven't looked at it yet."
Sounds like you are selectively cherry-picking only material that agrees with your preconceived adulation of wierwille. You, Mike, are trapped in an echo chamber of your own making. Here at GSC alone, you've posted 3711 times........and yet, you haven't even read this book, a biography, from the wife of this man that you so dearly revere.
What does that say about you, Mike?
If you care to have an honest, substantive discussion here at GSC about victor wierwille ......then, at least, read her book. You've had 20 years to do your "research" and yet, you give it that lame "time permitting" excuse. Really? Just face it Mike.......you only want material that strengthens your idol-worship of wierwille.
I've put in enough time to really understand who wierwille was.......and he was a fraud.
Mike........I find your credibility sorely lacking when you "have a Xerox copy of Mrs. Wierwille's book from 1996 and haven't looked at it yet."
Sounds like you are selectively cherry-picking only material that agrees with your preconceived adulation of wierwille. You, Mike, are trapped in an echo chamber of your own making. Here at GSC alone, you've posted 3711 times........and yet, you haven't even read this book, a biography, from the wife of this man that you so dearly revere.
What does that say about you, Mike?
If you care to have an honest, substantive discussion here at GSC about victor wierwille ......then, at least, read her book. You've had 20 years to do your "research" and yet, you give it that lame "time permitting" excuse. Really? Just face it Mike.......you only want material that strengthens your idol-worship of wierwille.
I've put in enough time to really understand who wierwille was.......and he was a fraud.
A very good point Skyrider !
I thought it was extremely odd that he supposedly took so much time and effort for his "research" – like conducting polls and contacting people to solicit positive feedback about PFAL – yet for some reason can’t find the time…within a 20 year span…or make the effort to read a Xerox copy of Mrs. wierwille’s book…which – being about as close a source as you could get to wierwille, his wife for goodness sakes.if he was into researching about wierwille as much as he says he is, you’d think that Xerox copy of Mrs. wierwille's book would have been at the top of his read and review several times list.
obviously fabricating research to reinforce a delusion of reverence has a higher priority.
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
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After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
skyrider
Thanks guys….. life is good, all is well. It’s good to see GSC continuing to sound the alarm as we move into the 2023 new year. Even though twi tries to guilt advanced class grads and corps to *
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skyrider
Thanks again, DWBH........
Yeah......."believe absurdities"
And........."commit atrocities"
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, and DWBH;
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chockfull
ah yes, in that essence this individual has absorbed not only the material but the subtext of that which was communicated.
STAR WARS WAY STYLE - Attack of the Ironic Clones - TM
They are "writing the book"
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So_crates
In my opinion, it's more like a syndrome suggested by Hunter Thompson refering to jackrabbits.
I'll let Hunter, from Fear And Loathing On The Campaign Trail '72, lay it out:
I have spent enough time in jack rabbit country to know that most of them lead pretty dull lives; they are bored with their daily routines: eat, f#ck, sleep, hop around a bush now and then....No wonder some of them drift over the line into cheap thrills once in a while; there has to be a powerful adrenalin rush in crouching by the side of a road, waiting for the next set of headlights to come along, then streaking out of the bushes with split-second timing and making it across to the other side just inches in front of the speeding front wheels.
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T-Bone
Off topic here - your post reminded me of the little bunnies that “terrorize” our neighborhood:
one dark morning as I approached a stop sign on my way to work - I saw something in the middle of the road - couldn’t make it out even with flicking on my brights - until I got close enough - it was a bunny sitting up on his hind legs...as I slowed to a stop and pulled way to the right I kept thinking be prepared to jam on the brakes if he darts to my side....but he didn’t...just sat there upright in the middle of the road like he was working a toll booth.
Another time - it was mid-morning- I was walking our two dogs toward that same intersection- when to our left a bunny came running out from the side of a house and darted right across our path - about 4 feet in front of us; happened so fast the dogs didn’t have time to react in typical game-on bark-fest.... but simply jerked their heads to the right, following the action - I could see a little thought bubble above their heads with the caption “what the fvck was that !?!?” ...yeah, daring little critters they are for sure.
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Mike
Yikes! How can I read, and then respond, to all that? Old as I am, that could run me out of gas!
I’ll go through it slowly and more thoroughly during lulls in the holiday action. Meanwhile, from a quick browsing, I’m impressed at how many people here believe in polls!Yes I did take a poll.
My belief in the thousands who where blessed more than hurt by PFAL comes from the INFORMAL polls I took involving only several hundreds of grads.
I started around 1987 by calling all the grads I knew (even just a little) by phone. When unlimited long distance plans were invented a few years later my number of grads called per month jumped significantly. When the Internet bloomed I did it by e-mail to MANY more, as well as to grads I did not know. Then, coming to GreaseSpot in 2002, I did it mass production style.
This was totally informal. For the first ten years I focused on discussing (1) what went right, (2) what went wrong, and (3) what can we do about it. I was perplexed at the collapse of the ministry, and was searching far and wide for answers.
Starting in 1998 I added to those 3 items questions to see if they knew about Dr’s last, last, last teaching. The number of NO answers I got there were astonishing. I reported these statistics from my polling here several times.
My informal impressions were that 90% of the people I knew were still very blessed by PFAL, and very surprised and disappointed by the new revelations (1986) of Big Trouble in
In my polling some useful inferences could also be made.
One such inference is from two of my CLOSEST friends. Both of them worked LONGTIME on HQ staff, and the revelations of sexual trouble at HQ was a NEW REVELATION to them too. I only worked at HQ for 2 years, but I kept in close touch with them.
They told me that they never saw anything whatsoever. (Same as me)
They told me they had heard of scant rumors over the years and still saw nothing. (Same as me)
They were perplexed and confused about the scathing reports they started getting in 1986. (Same as me)
They professed being still greatly blessed by PFAL and would trudge on through the difficulties. (Same as me)
We figured (at that time) that there must be a lot of exaggeration in the reports because we had no capacity to understand that both great open good and great hidden evil could be in the same place at the same time.
I increased my capacity to understand this from studying Romans 7, and David, and Solomon.
The inference that I draw from this is that whatever went on at HQ was highly contained in space and time. It didn’t go on often and it didn’t involve a lot of people. That’s how it was kept secret. Kinda like the way it happens in all other organizations of human beings, as the “Me Too” movement is showing.Link to comment
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T-Bone
Well, I’m impressed…say, have you ever done any PR work for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston, concerning the widespread and systemic child sex abuse by numerous Roman Catholic priests? I recognize your style.
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Mike
Well, I am not impressed...with your ability to deal with the points I just brought up.
An ad hominem attack is all you could muster?
Want to try again?
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Twinky
The question:
The answer:
Mike!
The hidden question:
The answer:
DWBH and Skyrider! (with assistance from Cafe friends)
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So_crates
Informal is right, and therefore not accurate.
As anyone who has dealt with polls knows: How you ask the question has a lot to do with the results you get.
You, of course, understand that "What blessed you about the class?" will garner a different response than "Did the class bless you?"
That's why most polling companies list the questions they asked on their website. The don't list vague statements like "(1) what went right, (2)what went wrong, and (3)what can we do about it."
So, what were the exact questions you asked?
Second, when did you take this poll? Right after they took the class perhaps? And what did you expect them to say after they spent all that money, Go back and retake the poll now, I'll bet your results will be very different.
Also, how many thousand? Where did you get the grads names?
Somehow I find it hard to believe Way Nash would give you the names and numbers of thousands of grads. Further, I find it harder to believe you have nothing better to do than call people on the phone conducting an informal poll.
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Mike
So_crates, are you pretending that if I had done my polling more formally and more scientifically that THEN you'd believe it....? Oh, really? But for my lack of rigor you just can't believe MANY thousands were , and STILL ARE blessed by PFAL? I'm so glad to see your confidence in proper statistics.
***
In 2017 I saw two such grads take some slightly risky stands on their loyalty to PFAL. Both of them, independent of each other, posted the entire video PFAL class on two different websites. Many hundreds grads flocked there and were able to download the files. One site was taken down several months later, and I think the other is still up. I read the comments of many grads whose names were totally unfamiliar to me. It sounded just like the batch of grads I hung out with 30 years ago. Many HUNDREDS of grads have been copying and circulating that class for 30 years now. The existence of PDF versions of the collateral books was announced HERE and proved very easy to find since 2003. Did you know that PFAL is possibly the most bootlegged video item in history?
I get the impression most most GreaseSpot posters have been doing the exact opposite of me for the past 30 years. I seek out positive, thankful grads and I find them. I get the impression most of you folks have been cutting off all contact with most grads in general, and especially with positive, thankful grads. Can you name 2 close friends who are positive grads who still are fluent with PFAL ideas? I can assure you with complete credibility, that I do hang out with PLENTY of negative, unthankful grads.
I never became insular when TWI was cooking during the 70s and early 80s. I saw lots of grads do that, and I also saw many fall into wierwille worship.
My impression is that the unawareness here of thousands and thousands of thankful grads is due to continuing the insularity and the intellectual inbreeding I mentioned earlier. It's your opportunity to convince me otherwise..
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So_crates
No pretending to it, dude. I can phrase the questions equally in such a way every one of those grads you claim raved about it, will complain about it. That's the problem with informal polls, people pretty much get the information they want. Or have you never heard that everyone wants to think of themselves as cooperative so they give experimenters and pollers what they think they want to hear. Or have you never heard of the Hawthorne Effect?
Second, most people still in The Way will laud PLAF to high heaven. Only when they leave will they express their true feeling about it. Why? Partially social pressure. Mostly the ministry doesn't encourage free thought (as your unwillingness to acknowledge Saint Vic's evil nature proves time and time again.)
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many thousands? What questions asked? Where did you get thousands of grads names and numbers? What did you do with the information?
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Mike
...a different "it" is involved.
My impression is that you are pretending to seriously consider my results IF IT WERE THE CASE that it was done scientifically.
If a poll you respected were done, and many thousands of blessed PFAL fans turned up to really exist, THEN what would you do? Changer your theology? No. You'd find another way to deny the facts.
Here's another indicator that proves the many thousands do exist: how many clone ministries and mini-ministries are there now that mimic PFAL? I'd estimate in the hundreds, and many of them have bootleg PFAL videos and books. For each of these small fellowships there are probably around 5 to 10 attendees, usually old grads. Do the math.
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So_crates
Your doing a nice two-step, Mike, but I'm getting a little tired of dancing.
Stop dodging the questions:
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many thousands? What questions asked? Where did you get thousands of grads names and numbers? What did you do with the information?
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Mike
I think you need to re-read my post. You seem to have missed a couple of points.
I used simple extrapolation to go from the hundreds I interviewed, to the thousands.
Are you saying that you WOULD change your theology if it were proved to you that many thousands are STILL thankful for PFAL?
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So_crates
Weren't you the one talking about credibility a few post back.
I've asked you three time about an informal poll you've claimed to have done. Specifically:
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many hundreds? What questions asked? Where did you get hundreds of grads names and numbers? What did you do with the information?
Now, here's my conundrum: You mention an informal poll. When asked for further information, you dodge. You bring up other instances. Then you admit the thousands were actually hundreds.
Where do you think your credibility is with me?
Why should I believe any other instance you gave me?
This board has 17,822 members. Most of them are unhappy with PLAF (If they weren't they wouldn't be here). I think that more than the hundreds you claim you polled.
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Mike
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Bolshevik
So, interpolate from extrapolated data inferred from subjective experience and THEN you will see the truth.
I'm glad that point was finally explained.
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So_crates
My comments are after the ----:
Weren't you the one talking about credibility a few post back.
I've asked you three time about an informal poll you've claimed to have done. Specifically:
So, why are you reluctant to provide further information about your informal poll? Like how many thousands? I posted that I interviewed hundreds.
---Okay, hundreds. That's a far cry from thousands.
What questions asked?I posted that most there were 3 questions, and a 4th was added in 1998.
---No, you posted question stated vaguely. I'm wanting specifics. Not (1) what went right, (2) what went wrong, and (3) what can we do about it. How specifically did you ask for the information.
Where did you get thousands of grads names I never posted that. Read it again.
---Never said you posted that. It's a logical question that comes out of the course of the conversation. Now, rather than dodge, what's the answer?
and numbers I posted through interpolation the second time, the first post I left it as an obvious inference for an alert reader. Please read it again, with coffee and phone off.
---What was that you were saying about arguments directed at the man a few post back? However, your snarkiness doesn't get you off the hook it's a legitimate question deserving a legitimate answer. So try again, without interpolation. Give me a straight answer. Or don't you have one.
What did you do with the information I posted (again through inference) that I pondered it deeply, and later incorporated it into 5000 posts on GreasSpot for 5 years. I got many positive e-mails and PMs from positive grads who didn't want to post or even read much of the negativity. They were repulsed by it, but loved my posts. Radio stations and TV stations figure that for every POSITIVE letter someone takes the time to write, there are MANY people who think exactly the same way, but who don't take or have the time. This is another form of interpolation that polster hip people know.
----So, we get to the real reason your here: To impress others in your twig.
However, I do find it funny that they complain about negativity, yet they still come here to read the posts. And isn't it amusing that those who whine about negativity directed at The Way are being so negative about GS. What's up? Don't like the facts getting out?
Now, here's my problem: You mention an informal poll. When asked for further information, you dodge. I posted a lot you seem to have missed.
----Or I didn't miss anything and your dodging again. Maybe if you'd give straight answers to questions rather than going off on irrelevant tangents, thing would go a lot smoother.
You bring up other instances. Then you admit the thousands were actually hundreds. I posted that UP FRONT. There was no "then you posted" to it.
---This is apparently a definition of "up front" I'm not familiar with. It wasn't until I started questioning you "thousands" claim that you admitted it was only hundreds. That's hardly "up front"
Where do you think your credibility is with me? I posted it. Zero for informal poll, zero for formal, perfect poll. You can interpolate the rest.
---You forgot zero with people who aren't "up front" with me
Why should I believe any other instance you gave me? Well, when peoples' broken cisterns start running dry, they often try out something really new. Make a mental note, that if all goes South for you someday, MAYBE one of those PDF collaterals that are abundantly available would do you some good.
--- Again, what was that you were saying about arguments directed at the man a few post back? Yah, PLAF, it did wonders the 3+ times I took it--Not! As did the Intermediate--Not! Just so you know: I will never have anything to do with PLAF or The Way again. What you think? I want people around who are going to nose into my affairs? Who have nothing better to do then yell at me? Who expect me to hand over my income? You think I want false friends who claim we are a family, then at the first sign of trouble they disappear? No thanks, you can keep it.
However, when you finally get around to admitting to yourself what Saint Vic was really all about, GS will be here.
This board has close to 18,000 members. Most of them are unhappy with PLAF. I think that more than the hundreds you claim you polled. That's really interesting... sort of. But I have to get to work. I'd love to hear more of your 18,000 voice choir, though.
---And your "hundreds" naturally aren't a chorus all collectively whining the same tune? Keep up the huberis, ace. Pride comes before the fall
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chockfull
Mike I must say those 3 things you say "increased your capacity to understand this" is somewhat alarming.
For instance - the closing verse of Romans 7
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
When you combine this with records of David - specifically David and Bathsheba, as well as Solomon's hundreds of wives, you get into a territory of thought that cannot be described other than "enablement". In David's story, there was a prophet to confront him.
I can relate to a number of your points in this previous posts, until you came to that which I quoted. I can't relate to that at all. I don't think that verse in Romans is talking about a duality of ethics being acceptable to God. That is so strange. I think where you and the Way need to be living is in the book of I John.
The closest thing I could even relate that to is I recently watched a Dave Chappelle comedy clip on Netflix, and he was doing this routine about pitching a sit-com idea to a Texan about a super-hero who rapes but he saves. Then he tied it in to his own strange emotions about Bill Cosby - being one of the first black pioneers in comedy that he grew up to as a role model, and dealing with the truth about him coming out recently.
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chockfull
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
Sorry what's a thread like this without a quote from "Fear and Loathing" ???? Right?
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T-Bone
A follow up to my Archdiocese of Boston reference in previous post and how it relates here…for those not familiar with the scandal the Boston Globe newspaper brought to light - the Boston Globe revealed the efforts of the Boston Archdiocese to cover-up the pattern of sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests in Massachusetts - - you might want to catch the movie Spotlight an intensely thrilling crime drama that portrays some of the highlights of that story…As far as the topic of this thread goes…I just don’t think anyone needs to apply a fresh coat of paint to the whited sepulchers of New Knoxville.
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skyrider
Mike........I find your credibility sorely lacking when you "have a Xerox copy of Mrs. Wierwille's book from 1996 and haven't looked at it yet."
Sounds like you are selectively cherry-picking only material that agrees with your preconceived adulation of wierwille. You, Mike, are trapped in an echo chamber of your own making. Here at GSC alone, you've posted 3711 times........and yet, you haven't even read this book, a biography, from the wife of this man that you so dearly revere.
What does that say about you, Mike?
If you care to have an honest, substantive discussion here at GSC about victor wierwille ......then, at least, read her book. You've had 20 years to do your "research" and yet, you give it that lame "time permitting" excuse. Really? Just face it Mike.......you only want material that strengthens your idol-worship of wierwille.
I've put in enough time to really understand who wierwille was.......and he was a fraud.
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T-Bone
A very good point Skyrider !
I thought it was extremely odd that he supposedly took so much time and effort for his "research" – like conducting polls and contacting people to solicit positive feedback about PFAL – yet for some reason can’t find the time…within a 20 year span…or make the effort to read a Xerox copy of Mrs. wierwille’s book…which – being about as close a source as you could get to wierwille, his wife for goodness sakes.if he was into researching about wierwille as much as he says he is, you’d think that Xerox copy of Mrs. wierwille's book would have been at the top of his read and review several times list.
obviously fabricating research to reinforce a delusion of reverence has a higher priority.
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