I sincerely doubt that the incident actually took place. Mike's telling of it seems to be the only recording of the event. And, he wasn't there. Although, I don't doubt that Mike may have heard some rumor that subsequently grew into said incident. That's how myths and legends evolve.
off topic alert...Just to be clear, So_Crates, I grew up NEAR the zoo, not IN it.
I sincerely doubt that the incident actually took place. Mike's telling of it seems to be the only recording of the event. And, he wasn't there. Although, I don't doubt that Mike may have heard some rumor that subsequently grew into said incident. That's how myths and legends evolve.
off topic alert...Just to be clear, So_Crates, I grew up NEAR the zoo, not IN it.
Waysider, when you said "seems to be the only recording of the event" I'll bet a dollar it never occurred to you to search Advanced Class transcripts. There's also a SNS tape from 1965 (#214?) where VPW spends a half hour doing a verbal history of his ministry. To not include this tape means, again, that the search is far from complete.
There's a good possibility I got my memory distorted as to WHO threw the late guy down the stairs, but what is clear to me is that VPW did say somewhere, sometime that he initially became interested in the teacher of a class from hearing of the staircase incident. My impression is the guy showed up late, insisted on being able to stay due to his paying for the class, and the teacher insisting stronger that he leave. It seems logical that this teacher is BGL.
Also, keep in mind that "thrown down the stairs" is a common figure of speech that can have figurative meanings, and a spectrum of intensity, I initially pictured a full flight of stairs, but that figure of speech works for a porch with two or three steps as well.
Waysider, when you said "seems to be the only recording of the event" I'll bet a dollar it never occurred to you to search Advanced Class transcripts. There's also a SNS tape from 1965 (#214?) where VPW spends a half hour doing a verbal history of his ministry. To not include this tape means, again, that the search is far from complete.
There's a good possibility I got my memory distorted as to WHO threw the late guy down the stairs, but what is clear to me is that VPW did say somewhere, sometime that he initially became interested in the teacher of a class from hearing of the staircase incident. My impression is the guy showed up late, insisted on being able to stay due to his paying for the class, and the teacher insisting stronger that he leave. It seems logical that this teacher is BGL.
Also, keep in mind that "thrown down the stairs" is a common figure of speech that can have figurative meanings, and a spectrum of intensity, I initially pictured a full flight of stairs, but that figure of speech works for a porch with two or three steps as well.
So, Mike, why does it seem that Saint Vic is attracted to people who mistreat others? (Birds of a feather, perhaps?)
First, the guy that snaps at his wife. Now, a guy who throws someone down stairs for the venial sin of being late.
Two, three steps or twenty steps makes little difference. Either way the person could have been hurt or even killed (should he have hit his head) by such an idiotic move.
Nowadays, in the least, that's assault and it can get you time cooling your heels at the crowbar motel.
Waysider, when you said "seems to be the only recording of the event" I'll bet a dollar it never occurred to you to search Advanced Class transcripts. There's also a SNS tape from 1965 (#214?) where VPW spends a half hour doing a verbal history of his ministry. To not include this tape means, again, that the search is far from complete.
There's a good possibility I got my memory distorted as to WHO threw the late guy down the stairs, but what is clear to me is that VPW did say somewhere, sometime that he initially became interested in the teacher of a class from hearing of the staircase incident. My impression is the guy showed up late, insisted on being able to stay due to his paying for the class, and the teacher insisting stronger that he leave. It seems logical that this teacher is BGL.
Also, keep in mind that "thrown down the stairs" is a common figure of speech that can have figurative meanings, and a spectrum of intensity, I initially pictured a full flight of stairs, but that figure of speech works for a porch with two or three steps as well.
I have no desire to "search" the AC transcripts or review SNS tape #214. All that would really prove is that Wierwille spoke of the alleged event. We already know that much, otherwise you would have no knowledge of it. It doesn't make it anymore true than his fabricated snowstorm stories. And, yes, I'm aware the expression can be used figuratively, much like people today say someone threw them "under the bus". If you're still not sure what kind of behavior is acceptable and expected of someone who supposedly represents God, I suggest you spend less time searching Way publications and reexamine the scriptures. If this is the kind of behavior Wierwille found admirable, I believe his understanding of the scriptures may have been skewed.
This Boob M - the same dude who is kind of the leader of the Revival and Restoration Group - that has concluded in concurring with us here on the `Spot that God did not divide Christians into denominations, that is man's shortcomings. This guy was the one who saw through the Snake Oil Salesman as early as `77 - and honestly, like anyone with a college education and who has had a background in mathematics, "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" sounds exactly like a Rube Goldberg description of the mathematics principle of the transitive property of equality.
In fact, it sounds like "the Teacher" was someone with a Doctoral degree who couldn't pass a general studies mathematics college class required for graduation. Perhaps his undergrad, masters, and cereal boxtop doctorate can't stand up to the test of "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?"
Thanks for the insight.
For my life, it expands upon the "hindsight is 20/20 concept". And makes me thankful for telling the truth here.
wish there had been a Jesse Waters back then asking Wierwille general questions on normal topics to see his replies.
Waysider, when you said "seems to be the only recording of the event" I'll bet a dollar it never occurred to you to search Advanced Class transcripts. There's also a SNS tape from 1965 (#214?) where VPW spends a half hour doing a verbal history of his ministry. To not include this tape means, again, that the search is far from complete.
There's a good possibility I got my memory distorted as to WHO threw the late guy down the stairs, but what is clear to me is that VPW did say somewhere, sometime that he initially became interested in the teacher of a class from hearing of the staircase incident. My impression is the guy showed up late, insisted on being able to stay due to his paying for the class, and the teacher insisting stronger that he leave. It seems logical that this teacher is BGL.
Also, keep in mind that "thrown down the stairs" is a common figure of speech that can have figurative meanings, and a spectrum of intensity, I initially pictured a full flight of stairs, but that figure of speech works for a porch with two or three steps as well.
Mike...............Mrs. Wierwille gave a very different, and extensive, overview of this whole timeline and build-up to B.G. Leonard's class.
.......page 87 (BATS)
"Our Christmas holiday preparations in 1952 were under way. Once more we were decorating the church, and I was putting in many hours helping there. At that time Dr. Wierwille and I noticed that our eight-year-old daughter, Mary was developing a lump under her chin. Within a week another lump had begun developing, under her jawbone. Mary's change in appearance was quite obvious, and people decorating at the church began asking me, "Have you taken her to a doctor?" I had to admit, "No, I haven't." These well-meaning women persisted in asking me about taking her to the doctor to the point that I could no longer answer them patiently. I knew I couldn't stay in harmony with the other helpers, so I thought I'd better do something about this. I called our dentist and made a same-day appointment."
"The dentist saw Mary and with great concern said her problem was not anything in his area of expertise and that I'd better take her to see our physician right away. I had no intention of going to the physician. I didn't want her scarred from surgery, let alone the fact that anything serious could not be cured through the medical know-how of that time. But by going to the dentist, I then had a response when the ladies asked me about taking her to the doctor. I could say, "Yes, I've taken Mary to the doctor," even though the doctor was a dentist, not a physician."
"There was no way of explaining how Dr. Wierwille and I felt about this situation with our daughter because we didn't even know ourselves. We were prayerfully deciding what to do when we agreed that we would ask B. G. Leonard to minister to her. Dr. Wierwille had met him at the convention in Tulsa in December of 1951 and received publications from him following that. But the quality of printing of Leonard's publications was always so very poor that Dr. Wierwille threw his materials away without reading them, the print simply wasn't readable."
"At the same time that Mary and I were returning home from our appointment with the dentist, my husband was burning his office wastepaper, and one of the pamphlets from B. G. Leonard was on the top of the pile after he turned over the wastepaper basket. He pulled the pamphlet out of the fire to keep the address. So we referred to that address, (page 88) got the phone number, and called B.G. Leonard in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, to ask him to minister healing to Mary. After praying with B.G. over the phone that day, we just thanked the Father for healing her."
"At the time we called him , B.G. Leonard was in the middle of teaching a three-week class called 'The Gifts of the Spirit,' so he couldn't come to see us; but he added on the phone that if we needed any more help we should call Lee Vayle, a student of his living in Florida, who would personally come to help us. B.G., as we lovingly came to call him, assured us that Mary would be all right. We knew that he could only have known that by revelation, so Dr. Wierwille and I relaxed and were greatly comforted. In a matter of a few days, Mary's one lump went away, and in another week the other one disappeared also."
"Since B.G. mentioned it, Dr. Wierwille thought Lee Vayle from West Palm Beach, Florida, should come to Van Wert and teach us more about the manifestations of holy spirit. So in the excited afterglow of Mary's healing, we invited people to join us who were interested in this field to also learn from him when he came in the middle of January 1953. Some, but not all, of our congregation were interested."
"When Lee Vayle came, he reassured us about Mary's healing and taught us more about the manifestations of holy spirit. We gathered in our living room with those interested, and Lee ministered holy spirit to anyone who had not yet received it into manifestation, which included Rhoda Becker. Lee Vayle instructed us from his knowledge of holy spirit, mainly about the inspiration manifestations of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy."
~~~~~~~~~~~
page 90 (BATS)....
"Ever since the Divine Healing convention in Tulsa in December 1951, and since Rev. B.G. Leonard prayed with us for Mary's healing over the phone in December 1952, Dr. Wierwille's hunger for more knowledge about God's healing power was piqued. In late winter, February 1953, Dr. Wierwille felt the need to spend time with B.G. Leonard. He related, 'I called B.G. Leonard on the telephone.He told me he loved me, but that I couldn't come up to see him because he was in the middle of teaching a class. I took the next plane to Calgary, Alberta, Canada anyway.' ......."
"B.G. Leonard called his work in Calgary 'The Christian Training Centre.' Dr. Wierwille described his first impressions there: 'I walked in and B.G. was in the middle of announcements. They must have lasted an hour and a half. Then he took his violin and played hymns for a while. When he finally started preaching, he taught his heart out for another hour and a half. Then everyone left and I sat there. He said, 'I thought I told you that you couldn't come.' and I said, 'Yeah, but I didn't hear you."
Picture on page 90........February 1953 Class Photo: B.G. Leonard seated in middle of front row, flanked by two women on each side, and three men in back row (vpw in middle of back row).
Thanks for the Mrs. W data. I have a Xerox copy of her book, but haven’t looked at it yet. I do desire to be informed by as much data as possible; time permitting.
What about that bullet point of yours on a 1984 confrontation of the BOT by VPW?
Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class? AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL?If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class? AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL?If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
Was there a poll taken of the “thousands of thankful grads” Mike?
Vee Pee’s agenda was evil from its inception. How do YOU weigh the good against the evil? Too many people’s lives were crushed by becoming involved with pfal.
I for one will not “admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL”. But that’s just me.
... If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
Mike, there were many who took PFAL and walked away during it- that shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
Some others stuck around for a few months, and then were distracted by other events - that shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
Some others stuck around for a couple of years, maybe going to twigs, and a few festivals like RoA and then stopped fellowshipping. Perhaps they moved away, or their twi leader moved away - that such people never continued shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
And then, notching it up a bit...
Some went in rez or on staff. Some left during their rez time or staff time. They usually left in bad circumstances, and they were badmouthed after their departure. That shows what the leavers thought of PFAL.
Yet more were graduated corps or long-term staffers. And they too are no longer fellowshipping with TWI. TThat shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
And there remain a few, a very few, who continue to fellowship with TWI. Compared with the numbers that have taken PFAL over the decades, that shows exactly how many people "admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL." As a percentage of all PFAL grads, it wouldn't be high.
Where and who are these grads you are talking about? How many, within a few dozen, are you talking about? If PFAL did "great good" for them, why are they no longer fellowshipping with TWI? Why aren't you?
... admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
You see, Mike, for most of the people who post here, any "good" that came out of PFAL is greatly overshadowed by the VERY GREAT HARM that was done by PFAL. Both in its words and in its practice.
Mike, there were many who took PFAL and walked away during it- that shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
Some others stuck around for a few months, and then were distracted by other events - that shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
Some others stuck around for a couple of years, maybe going to twigs, and a few festivals like RoA and then stopped fellowshipping. Perhaps they moved away, or their twi leader moved away - that such people never continued shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
And then, notching it up a bit...
Some went in rez or on staff. Some left during their rez time or staff time. They usually left in bad circumstances, and they were badmouthed after their departure. That shows what the leavers thought of PFAL.
Yet more were graduated corps or long-term staffers. And they too are no longer fellowshipping with TWI. TThat shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
And there remain a few, a very few, who continue to fellowship with TWI. Compared with the numbers that have taken PFAL over the decades, that shows exactly how many people "admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL." As a percentage of all PFAL grads, it wouldn't be high.
Where and who are these grads you are talking about? How many, within a few dozen, are you talking about? If PFAL did "great good" for them, why are they no longer fellowshipping with TWI? Why aren't you?
Twinky, bingo!! I took a Church Bible Class several years ago, in Bethesda Md. The class was free, people were allowed to ask questions, and give their opinions about the material presented. What a lovely class; I never wanted it to end. I thought the PFAL Class was boring, and couldn't wait for it to end.
(SNIP)...Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class? AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL? If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
quote is reformatted below for an easier way to follow the points
Mike:
Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class?
T-Bone:
Mike, good idea – why don’t you start a thread about that - - maybe make it a survey too…but for now I would like to comment on your post. First off, I was wondering how you came up with the number of “many, many thousands of grads are thankful…etc.” Exactly what means did you use to quantify that – or did you just pick a number off the top of your head?...Or are you merely assuming there has to be a large number of PFAL grads out there who feel like you do?
== == == == ==
Mike:
AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL?
T-Bone:
Again I would like to know how you have established this indisputable truth (also know as a fact) when you said “the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here…etc.” Did you conduct a poll or survey? Do you have a long list of names from your survey – I imagine it should be a long, long list with the names of many, many thousands of grads…Or are you the equivalent of a union representative – and have been designated as the spokesman for the many, many thousands of grads? If so, there should be some documentation that declares you as such. Your name listed with your official title on a website, or the official name of the group you represent…
I’m sorry to be so inquisitive but I’m just going on what you’ve said in the past and the way you've conducted yourself when challenged on a point of fact or logic – so I have a hard time trusting you or believing what you say when you frequently exhibit a strong bias to laud wierwille and PFAL even in the face of damaging evidence.
== == == == == ==
Mike:
If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
T-Bone:
I’m sorry to be repetitive but as I just said above - judging by what you’ve said and done before - - you've lost credibility with me by the fact that you prefer to hold on to some imaginary greatness of wierwille and PFAL though it's contrary to reality.
Now it may be just me but going on what I know of you from your posting on Grease Spot - I tend to think if there is some huge credibility gap in your mind – it might be the intellectual crevasse you’ve made to “insulate” your ideas of wierwille and PFAL that are contradicted by the facts and evidence that many, many thousands of Grease Spotters have presented here (17,822 members according to the current total on main page)...
by the way, I am no expert on matters of mental health - but something that helped me out after I left TWI was some professional counseling - - so I could unravel things and deal with the compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance I had developed while in TWI...just a thought from some friendly opposition - so take it for what it's worth...
I choose not to use a broad brush stroke in painting the attitudes of Grease Spotters – I would say the beliefs and attitudes expressed by folks here covers a rather broad spectrum of viewpoints; the fact that over the years many posters have expressed the whole gamut of opinions on wierwille and PFAL - - even if sometimes it's just to the point of isolating a particular incident, experience or doctrine to relate some aspect that was good about it - this is enough to show many folks are using an objective analysis – thereby disregarding the all-or-nothing rationale that many of us went by when we were in TWI.
If everyone thought or felt the same way it would indicate that no one is really thinking...then that just might be group-think - and if one is honest they'll see that's not what goes on here...granted there's a lot of bad things brought up here - well...TWI was and still is a deceitful, abusive, manipulative, exploitive organization - so what do you expect?
an all-or-nothing thinker will look at Grease Spot and miss the details...miss the individualities...miss the nuances...miss the particulars...miss the subtleties - and just see one big negative attitude against anything associated with PFAL, TWI or whatever...
Folks have expressed they liked this or that about PFAL or some other TWI experience and I think it’s normal. Someone here had a post or thread on the duality of life – and in my opinion that truly is a healthy normal way of looking at things. Instead of all-or-nothing thinking – we can look at a teaching, a person, an experience, an incident, a life…whatever and a competent critical thinker who is always honing their objective analysis skills will continue to draw both lessons to be learned and moments to savor when reflecting on the past.
quote is reformatted below for an easier way to follow the points
Mike:
Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class?
T-Bone:
Mike, good idea – why don’t you start a thread about that…but for now I would like to comment on your post. First off, I was wondering how you came up with the number of “many, many thousands of grads are thankful…etc.” Exactly what means did you use to quantify that – or did you just pick a number off the top of your head?...Or are you merely assuming there has to be a large number of PFAL grads out there who feel like you do?
== == == == ==
Mike:
AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL?
T-Bone:
Again I would like to know how you have established this indisputable truth when you said “the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here…etc.” Did you conduct a poll or survey? Do you have a long list of names from your survey – I imagine it should be a long, long list with the names of many, many thousands of grads…Or are you the equivalent of a union representative – and have been designated as the spokesman for the many, many thousands of grads? If so, there should be some documentation that declares you as such. Your name listed with your official title on a website, or the official name of the group you represent…
.I’m sorry to be so inquisitive but I’m just going on what you’ve said in the past and they way you conduct yourself when challenged on a point of fact or logic – so I have a hard time trusting you or believing what you say when you frequently exhibit a strong bias to laud wierwille and PFAL even in the face of damaging evidence.
== == == == == ==
Mike:
If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
T-Bone:
I’m sorry to be repetitive but I’m just going on what you’ve said in the past – and I have a hard time trusting you or believing what you say when you frequently exhibit a strong bias to laud wierwille and PFAL even in the face of damaging evidence.
Now it may be just me but going on what I know of you from your posting on Grease Spot - I tend to think if there is some huge “credibility gap” in your mind – it might be the intellectual crevasse you’ve made to “insulate” your ideas of wierwille and PFAL that are contradicted by the facts and evidence that many, many thousands of Grease Spotters have presented here (17,822 members according to the current total on main page).
I choose not to use a broad brush stroke in painting the attitudes of Grease Spotters – I would say the beliefs and attitudes expressed by folks here covers a rather broad spectrum of viewpoints; the fact that over the years many posters have expressed the whole gamut of opinions on wierwille and PFAL - - even if sometimes it's to the point of isolating a particular incident, experience or doctrine - this is enough to show many folks are using an objective analysis – thereby disregarding the all-or-nothing rationale that many of us went by when we were in TWI. If everyone thought or felt the same way it would indicate that no one is really thinking...then that just might be group-think...all-or-nothing thinking will look at Grease Spot and
Folks have expressed they liked this or that about PFAL or some other TWI experience and I think it’s normal. Someone here had a post or thread on the duality of life – and in my opinion that truly is a healthy normal way of looking at things. Instead of all-or-nothing thinking – we can look at a teaching, a person, an experience, an incident, a life…whatever and a competent critical thinker who is always honing their objective analysis skills will continue to draw both lessons to be learned and moments to savor when reflecting on the past.
T-Bone, I think you might, or might not, be referring to a recent post of mine. I think I said something to the effect, that I had some really good leaders, and had some really good experiences, in TWI. OTOH, some of the leaders I had were not that good, and I had some terrible experiences in TWI. Some of us loved being in TWI, and some of us hated it with a passion. Both views, I think, are valaid.
T-Bone, I think you might, or might not, be referring to a recent post of mine. I think I said something to the effect, that I had some really good leaders, and had some really good experiences, in TWI. OTOH, some of the leaders I had were not that good, and I had some terrible experiences in TWI. Some of us loved being in TWI, and some of us hated it with a passion. Both views, I think, are valaid.
yeah - actually come to think of it - the duality of our experiences pops up on a lot of posts - I know you have shown that many times in your posts - when I first wrote this response I had in mind something Skyrider posted or a thread about that - but yeah - I'm always ok with using a lot more references Grace
Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class? AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL?If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
Thousands of grads? And you've talked to every one of them, right?
A large disdain for the pure negativity posted here. So where are these "thousands"? Nobody here stops them from logging on and challanging that "pure negativity."
Credibility with the grads. If the grads want to have credibility with ME they need to get more honest and admit the rampaging evil in the ministry.
You see, Mike, for most of the people who post here, any "good" that came out of PFAL is greatly overshadowed by the VERY GREAT HARM that was done by PFAL. Both in its words and in its practice.
Twinky, your post is so very, very true. A lot of "very great harm", did happen in TWI, to a lot of people, both male, and female. Some people lost their lives while in TWI, some people committed suicide, far too many women were raped; the list is long and sickening. Most of us in TWI decades ago, were very young, and truly believed we were doing God's work on earth. I think VPW took advantage of many of us, because of our youth, and what we thought was our Godly calling. He was what 50+, and many of us were under 25. I believe he knew he was taking advantage of us, but he didn't care. By the time many of us reached 30, the damage was done, and the bell couldn't be unrung. I know about some of the Caca, that went on in TWI, but I know there is more that went on, that I don't know about. Sometimes I think I know the worse that happened in TWI, but then someone will post something that I didn't know about. If I had known the truth about TWI forty years ago, when I first got involved, I would never have gotten involved with it. I walked away from TWI, with my sanity, and dignity, and back to my family. Some people have never recovered from their time in TWI, and perhaps never will. I think I am indeed most fortunate.
Two memorable quotes from Voltaire, one of the "gurus" of the Founding Fathers of the USA:
1) "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
2) "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
This is what "many thousands" of Piffle grads are thankful they learned from the class. And, over 98% remain thankful they left, although most of them wonder why it took them so long to do so! Mike, you believe in the absurdities and delusional fantasies of a dead sociopathic, malignant, narcissist, who was also a feckless drunk, and serial sexual batterer. By his own doctrines he died of "devil spirit possession". He was a criminal and deviant. YOU continue to demonstrate your continued belief in dictor paul's absurdities. Thank god that the only atrocities you are committing seem to be verbal and written. It's been a long road for you pilgrim! You persist at NOT using any exit. I guess the only other option to finally end your futile search for Wierwille greatness on the bullshit highway is for you to run outta gas. Dic's got a jack, but he's NOT gonna help YOU. You're getting old Mike! Praying for you to reach maturity before you empty your tank.................peace.
Great quotes DWBH! And I'm with JayDee and Socrates in my first impression of Mike's recent comment.
6 hours ago, Mike said:
Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class? AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL?If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
That's some incredible hubris Mike. I'm wondering just how you were able to take a poll of the "many, many thousands of grads" to find out whether or not they are "thankful as all get-out" for having sat through the cult indoctrination class now known as PFLAP.
Oh, and how did you get appointed (anointed?) spokesman for them to bring the message of what it would take to "ever have credibility" with them?
Frankly however, aside from the absurdity of those claims you made, it is more clear that you demonstrate the human frailty of believing and basing your life on a story that lacks credibility.
I think Mike mistakes us folks here with those who want to impress PLAF grads or WAP grads or whatever. Nope Mikey, that would be those other folks who started up Dictor Clone ministries. They've popped up like Star Wars Clone Armies - all fueled by former Way leaders who have shockingly been mistreated by the Way. Whod've thunk it? In such a pure leadership nurturing environment?
They range widely from Animatronics look-alikes to class offering varieties. Actually they all have some of the same things in common. They all seem to offer some variation of format where you can sit static and listen to them talk at you in some format - class, teaching, etc. etc. And they are all in need of donations to continue God's work. So all they are in need of is some poor fool to sit in front of their static presentation and send them money. They are the Non-Denominational Internet Ex-Way Beggars. Look at me. Donate to me. Take my class. We're exactly the same except better with no politics. We welcome all Christians to do the same, sit static in our living room and listen to us talk at you.
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
skyrider
Thanks guys….. life is good, all is well. It’s good to see GSC continuing to sound the alarm as we move into the 2023 new year. Even though twi tries to guilt advanced class grads and corps to *
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So_crates
I think it was in The Way: Living In Love.
The guys wife asked him when he'd be back and he responded, in effect, when he gets back.
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waysider
I sincerely doubt that the incident actually took place. Mike's telling of it seems to be the only recording of the event. And, he wasn't there. Although, I don't doubt that Mike may have heard some rumor that subsequently grew into said incident. That's how myths and legends evolve.
off topic alert...Just to be clear, So_Crates, I grew up NEAR the zoo, not IN it.
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Mike
Waysider, when you said "seems to be the only recording of the event" I'll bet a dollar it never occurred to you to search Advanced Class transcripts. There's also a SNS tape from 1965 (#214?) where VPW spends a half hour doing a verbal history of his ministry. To not include this tape means, again, that the search is far from complete.
There's a good possibility I got my memory distorted as to WHO threw the late guy down the stairs, but what is clear to me is that VPW did say somewhere, sometime that he initially became interested in the teacher of a class from hearing of the staircase incident. My impression is the guy showed up late, insisted on being able to stay due to his paying for the class, and the teacher insisting stronger that he leave. It seems logical that this teacher is BGL.
Also, keep in mind that "thrown down the stairs" is a common figure of speech that can have figurative meanings, and a spectrum of intensity, I initially pictured a full flight of stairs, but that figure of speech works for a porch with two or three steps as well.
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So_crates
So, Mike, why does it seem that Saint Vic is attracted to people who mistreat others? (Birds of a feather, perhaps?)
First, the guy that snaps at his wife. Now, a guy who throws someone down stairs for the venial sin of being late.
Two, three steps or twenty steps makes little difference. Either way the person could have been hurt or even killed (should he have hit his head) by such an idiotic move.
Nowadays, in the least, that's assault and it can get you time cooling your heels at the crowbar motel.
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waysider
I have no desire to "search" the AC transcripts or review SNS tape #214. All that would really prove is that Wierwille spoke of the alleged event. We already know that much, otherwise you would have no knowledge of it. It doesn't make it anymore true than his fabricated snowstorm stories. And, yes, I'm aware the expression can be used figuratively, much like people today say someone threw them "under the bus". If you're still not sure what kind of behavior is acceptable and expected of someone who supposedly represents God, I suggest you spend less time searching Way publications and reexamine the scriptures. If this is the kind of behavior Wierwille found admirable, I believe his understanding of the scriptures may have been skewed.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
wish there had been a Jesse Waters back then asking Wierwille general questions on normal topics to see his replies.
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skyrider
Mike...............Mrs. Wierwille gave a very different, and extensive, overview of this whole timeline and build-up to B.G. Leonard's class.
.......page 87 (BATS)
"Our Christmas holiday preparations in 1952 were under way. Once more we were decorating the church, and I was putting in many hours helping there. At that time Dr. Wierwille and I noticed that our eight-year-old daughter, Mary was developing a lump under her chin. Within a week another lump had begun developing, under her jawbone. Mary's change in appearance was quite obvious, and people decorating at the church began asking me, "Have you taken her to a doctor?" I had to admit, "No, I haven't." These well-meaning women persisted in asking me about taking her to the doctor to the point that I could no longer answer them patiently. I knew I couldn't stay in harmony with the other helpers, so I thought I'd better do something about this. I called our dentist and made a same-day appointment."
"The dentist saw Mary and with great concern said her problem was not anything in his area of expertise and that I'd better take her to see our physician right away. I had no intention of going to the physician. I didn't want her scarred from surgery, let alone the fact that anything serious could not be cured through the medical know-how of that time. But by going to the dentist, I then had a response when the ladies asked me about taking her to the doctor. I could say, "Yes, I've taken Mary to the doctor," even though the doctor was a dentist, not a physician."
"There was no way of explaining how Dr. Wierwille and I felt about this situation with our daughter because we didn't even know ourselves. We were prayerfully deciding what to do when we agreed that we would ask B. G. Leonard to minister to her. Dr. Wierwille had met him at the convention in Tulsa in December of 1951 and received publications from him following that. But the quality of printing of Leonard's publications was always so very poor that Dr. Wierwille threw his materials away without reading them, the print simply wasn't readable."
"At the same time that Mary and I were returning home from our appointment with the dentist, my husband was burning his office wastepaper, and one of the pamphlets from B. G. Leonard was on the top of the pile after he turned over the wastepaper basket. He pulled the pamphlet out of the fire to keep the address. So we referred to that address, (page 88) got the phone number, and called B.G. Leonard in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, to ask him to minister healing to Mary. After praying with B.G. over the phone that day, we just thanked the Father for healing her."
"At the time we called him , B.G. Leonard was in the middle of teaching a three-week class called 'The Gifts of the Spirit,' so he couldn't come to see us; but he added on the phone that if we needed any more help we should call Lee Vayle, a student of his living in Florida, who would personally come to help us. B.G., as we lovingly came to call him, assured us that Mary would be all right. We knew that he could only have known that by revelation, so Dr. Wierwille and I relaxed and were greatly comforted. In a matter of a few days, Mary's one lump went away, and in another week the other one disappeared also."
"Since B.G. mentioned it, Dr. Wierwille thought Lee Vayle from West Palm Beach, Florida, should come to Van Wert and teach us more about the manifestations of holy spirit. So in the excited afterglow of Mary's healing, we invited people to join us who were interested in this field to also learn from him when he came in the middle of January 1953. Some, but not all, of our congregation were interested."
"When Lee Vayle came, he reassured us about Mary's healing and taught us more about the manifestations of holy spirit. We gathered in our living room with those interested, and Lee ministered holy spirit to anyone who had not yet received it into manifestation, which included Rhoda Becker. Lee Vayle instructed us from his knowledge of holy spirit, mainly about the inspiration manifestations of speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy."
~~~~~~~~~~~
page 90 (BATS)....
"Ever since the Divine Healing convention in Tulsa in December 1951, and since Rev. B.G. Leonard prayed with us for Mary's healing over the phone in December 1952, Dr. Wierwille's hunger for more knowledge about God's healing power was piqued. In late winter, February 1953, Dr. Wierwille felt the need to spend time with B.G. Leonard. He related, 'I called B.G. Leonard on the telephone. He told me he loved me, but that I couldn't come up to see him because he was in the middle of teaching a class. I took the next plane to Calgary, Alberta, Canada anyway.' ......."
"B.G. Leonard called his work in Calgary 'The Christian Training Centre.' Dr. Wierwille described his first impressions there: 'I walked in and B.G. was in the middle of announcements. They must have lasted an hour and a half. Then he took his violin and played hymns for a while. When he finally started preaching, he taught his heart out for another hour and a half. Then everyone left and I sat there. He said, 'I thought I told you that you couldn't come.' and I said, 'Yeah, but I didn't hear you."
Picture on page 90........February 1953 Class Photo: B.G. Leonard seated in middle of front row, flanked by two women on each side, and three men in back row (vpw in middle of back row).
Edited by skyridertwo typos
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skyrider
WOW............there is a lot to unpack in Mrs. Wierwille's account.
No wonder......years later, wierwille put distance from these facts in retelling historical accounts.
His narcissism couldn't handle the truth......of how meager his life was before Leonard and others.
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So_crates
Hence, the throwing down the stairs story. A further attempt to distance Leonard and cast him in a less than positive light.
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Mike
skyrider,
Thanks for the Mrs. W data. I have a Xerox copy of her book, but haven’t looked at it yet. I do desire to be informed by as much data as possible; time permitting.
What about that bullet point of yours on a 1984 confrontation of the BOT by VPW?
Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class? AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL? If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
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JayDee
Was there a poll taken of the “thousands of thankful grads” Mike?
Vee Pee’s agenda was evil from its inception. How do YOU weigh the good against the evil? Too many people’s lives were crushed by becoming involved with pfal.
I for one will not “admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL”. But that’s just me.
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Twinky
Mike, there were many who took PFAL and walked away during it- that shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
Some others stuck around for a few months, and then were distracted by other events - that shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
Some others stuck around for a couple of years, maybe going to twigs, and a few festivals like RoA and then stopped fellowshipping. Perhaps they moved away, or their twi leader moved away - that such people never continued shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
And then, notching it up a bit...
Some went in rez or on staff. Some left during their rez time or staff time. They usually left in bad circumstances, and they were badmouthed after their departure. That shows what the leavers thought of PFAL.
Yet more were graduated corps or long-term staffers. And they too are no longer fellowshipping with TWI. TThat shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good."
And there remain a few, a very few, who continue to fellowship with TWI. Compared with the numbers that have taken PFAL over the decades, that shows exactly how many people "admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL." As a percentage of all PFAL grads, it wouldn't be high.
Where and who are these grads you are talking about? How many, within a few dozen, are you talking about? If PFAL did "great good" for them, why are they no longer fellowshipping with TWI? Why aren't you?
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Twinky
You see, Mike, for most of the people who post here, any "good" that came out of PFAL is greatly overshadowed by the VERY GREAT HARM that was done by PFAL. Both in its words and in its practice.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, bingo!! I took a Church Bible Class several years ago, in Bethesda Md. The class was free, people were allowed to ask questions, and give their opinions about the material presented. What a lovely class; I never wanted it to end. I thought the PFAL Class was boring, and couldn't wait for it to end.
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T-Bone
quote is reformatted below for an easier way to follow the points
Mike:
Another topic for consideration: do y’all here have any perception of how many, many thousands of grads are thankful as all get-out for having had the PFAL class?
T-Bone:
Mike, good idea – why don’t you start a thread about that - - maybe make it a survey too…but for now I would like to comment on your post. First off, I was wondering how you came up with the number of “many, many thousands of grads are thankful…etc.” Exactly what means did you use to quantify that – or did you just pick a number off the top of your head?...Or are you merely assuming there has to be a large number of PFAL grads out there who feel like you do?
== == == == ==
Mike:
AND are you aware of the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here towards their overall experience with PFAL?
T-Bone:
Again I would like to know how you have established this indisputable truth (also know as a fact) when you said “the fact that they have a large disdain for the pure negativity in most posters attitudes here…etc.” Did you conduct a poll or survey? Do you have a long list of names from your survey – I imagine it should be a long, long list with the names of many, many thousands of grads…Or are you the equivalent of a union representative – and have been designated as the spokesman for the many, many thousands of grads? If so, there should be some documentation that declares you as such. Your name listed with your official title on a website, or the official name of the group you represent…
I’m sorry to be so inquisitive but I’m just going on what you’ve said in the past and the way you've conducted yourself when challenged on a point of fact or logic – so I have a hard time trusting you or believing what you say when you frequently exhibit a strong bias to laud wierwille and PFAL even in the face of damaging evidence.
== == == == == ==
Mike:
If you all want to ever have credibility with these many grads, you need to get more balanced and admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL.
T-Bone:
I’m sorry to be repetitive but as I just said above - judging by what you’ve said and done before - - you've lost credibility with me by the fact that you prefer to hold on to some imaginary greatness of wierwille and PFAL though it's contrary to reality.
Now it may be just me but going on what I know of you from your posting on Grease Spot - I tend to think if there is some huge credibility gap in your mind – it might be the intellectual crevasse you’ve made to “insulate” your ideas of wierwille and PFAL that are contradicted by the facts and evidence that many, many thousands of Grease Spotters have presented here (17,822 members according to the current total on main page)...
by the way, I am no expert on matters of mental health - but something that helped me out after I left TWI was some professional counseling - - so I could unravel things and deal with the compartmentalization and cognitive dissonance I had developed while in TWI...just a thought from some friendly opposition
- so take it for what it's worth...
I choose not to use a broad brush stroke in painting the attitudes of Grease Spotters – I would say the beliefs and attitudes expressed by folks here covers a rather broad spectrum of viewpoints; the fact that over the years many posters have expressed the whole gamut of opinions on wierwille and PFAL - - even if sometimes it's just to the point of isolating a particular incident, experience or doctrine to relate some aspect that was good about it - this is enough to show many folks are using an objective analysis – thereby disregarding the all-or-nothing rationale that many of us went by when we were in TWI.
If everyone thought or felt the same way it would indicate that no one is really thinking...then that just might be group-think - and if one is honest they'll see that's not what goes on here...granted there's a lot of bad things brought up here - well...TWI was and still is a deceitful, abusive, manipulative, exploitive organization - so what do you expect?
an all-or-nothing thinker will look at Grease Spot and miss the details...miss the individualities...miss the nuances...miss the particulars...miss the subtleties - and just see one big negative attitude against anything associated with PFAL, TWI or whatever...
Folks have expressed they liked this or that about PFAL or some other TWI experience and I think it’s normal. Someone here had a post or thread on the duality of life – and in my opinion that truly is a healthy normal way of looking at things. Instead of all-or-nothing thinking – we can look at a teaching, a person, an experience, an incident, a life…whatever and a competent critical thinker who is always honing their objective analysis skills will continue to draw both lessons to be learned and moments to savor when reflecting on the past.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and clarity
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, I think you might, or might not, be referring to a recent post of mine. I think I said something to the effect, that I had some really good leaders, and had some really good experiences, in TWI. OTOH, some of the leaders I had were not that good, and I had some terrible experiences in TWI. Some of us loved being in TWI, and some of us hated it with a passion. Both views, I think, are valaid.
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T-Bone
yeah - actually come to think of it - the duality of our experiences pops up on a lot of posts - I know you have shown that many times in your posts - when I first wrote this response I had in mind something Skyrider posted or a thread about that - but yeah - I'm always ok with using a lot more references Grace
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So_crates
Thousands of grads? And you've talked to every one of them, right?
A large disdain for the pure negativity posted here. So where are these "thousands"? Nobody here stops them from logging on and challanging that "pure negativity."
Credibility with the grads. If the grads want to have credibility with ME they need to get more honest and admit the rampaging evil in the ministry.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, your post is so very, very true. A lot of "very great harm", did happen in TWI, to a lot of people, both male, and female. Some people lost their lives while in TWI, some people committed suicide, far too many women were raped; the list is long and sickening. Most of us in TWI decades ago, were very young, and truly believed we were doing God's work on earth. I think VPW took advantage of many of us, because of our youth, and what we thought was our Godly calling. He was what 50+, and many of us were under 25. I believe he knew he was taking advantage of us, but he didn't care. By the time many of us reached 30, the damage was done, and the bell couldn't be unrung. I know about some of the Caca, that went on in TWI, but I know there is more that went on, that I don't know about. Sometimes I think I know the worse that happened in TWI, but then someone will post something that I didn't know about. If I had known the truth about TWI forty years ago, when I first got involved, I would never have gotten involved with it. I walked away from TWI, with my sanity, and dignity, and back to my family. Some people have never recovered from their time in TWI, and perhaps never will. I think I am indeed most fortunate.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Two memorable quotes from Voltaire, one of the "gurus" of the Founding Fathers of the USA:
1) "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
2) "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
This is what "many thousands" of Piffle grads are thankful they learned from the class. And, over 98% remain thankful they left, although most of them wonder why it took them so long to do so! Mike, you believe in the absurdities and delusional fantasies of a dead sociopathic, malignant, narcissist, who was also a feckless drunk, and serial sexual batterer. By his own doctrines he died of "devil spirit possession". He was a criminal and deviant. YOU continue to demonstrate your continued belief in dictor paul's absurdities. Thank god that the only atrocities you are committing seem to be verbal and written. It's been a long road for you pilgrim! You persist at NOT using any exit. I guess the only other option to finally end your futile search for Wierwille greatness on the bullshit highway is for you to run outta gas. Dic's got a jack, but he's NOT gonna help YOU. You're getting old Mike! Praying for you to reach maturity before you empty your tank.................peace.
Edited by DontWorryBeHappySpelling
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Rocky
Great quotes DWBH! And I'm with JayDee and Socrates in my first impression of Mike's recent comment.
That's some incredible hubris Mike. I'm wondering just how you were able to take a poll of the "many, many thousands of grads" to find out whether or not they are "thankful as all get-out" for having sat through the cult indoctrination class now known as PFLAP.
Oh, and how did you get appointed (anointed?) spokesman for them to bring the message of what it would take to "ever have credibility" with them?
Frankly however, aside from the absurdity of those claims you made, it is more clear that you demonstrate the human frailty of believing and basing your life on a story that lacks credibility.
But hey, what do I know?
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chockfull
I think Mike mistakes us folks here with those who want to impress PLAF grads or WAP grads or whatever. Nope Mikey, that would be those other folks who started up Dictor Clone ministries. They've popped up like Star Wars Clone Armies - all fueled by former Way leaders who have shockingly been mistreated by the Way. Whod've thunk it? In such a pure leadership nurturing environment?
They range widely from Animatronics look-alikes to class offering varieties. Actually they all have some of the same things in common. They all seem to offer some variation of format where you can sit static and listen to them talk at you in some format - class, teaching, etc. etc. And they are all in need of donations to continue God's work. So all they are in need of is some poor fool to sit in front of their static presentation and send them money. They are the Non-Denominational Internet Ex-Way Beggars. Look at me. Donate to me. Take my class. We're exactly the same except better with no politics. We welcome all Christians to do the same, sit static in our living room and listen to us talk at you.
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Twinky
And so, yet again, another thread has turned its focus onto Mike.
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Rocky
With a big portion of irony, perhaps that's the Wierwille legacy... malignant narcissism that clones itself every so often.
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