I heard VPW wanted to take BG's class after hearing that BG threw a student out and down a flight of stairs who dared to show up late. They both were pretty rough and tumble guys. Not my types, but I respect the Word that they both did teach.
What you "heard" contradicts what vpw said happened, what Mrs w said happened, what both said about him, and what we heard from people who actually met him, interacted with him, and took his class. There's one CONSISTENT account of BGL (really nice guy-which is why vpw got away with what he got away with. Your story crashes hard into what happened. vpw HIMSELF said that he contacted BGL and was told the current class was in progress and not to show up. vpw then showed up and demanded to be let in anyway. BGL let him. Thar's TOTALLY not what vpw said to do with any pfal class, and not what vpw would have done. Sounds like you've constructed a vile, mean version of BGL that didn't exist to try to excuse vpw for being vile and mean. It's part of your "vpw gets a free pass on almost everything because it's all acceptable behavior", which it isn't and never was.
WW, I think when you were born, God gave you an abundance of brains, and great writing skills! Excellent post; thank you for posting!!
Thanks. The writing, at least, is actually somewhat sloppy and could use a little polish. It's good by internet standards but not quite up to publishing standards. As for brains, I've worked hard with what I have, and not everyone can say that. I makes a BIG difference, especially as you get older.
What you "heard" contradicts what vpw said happened, what Mrs w said happened, what both said about him, and what we heard from people who actually met him, interacted with him, and took his class. There's one CONSISTENT account of BGL (really nice guy-which is why vpw got away with what he got away with. Your story crashes hard into what happened. vpw HIMSELF said that he contacted BGL and was told the current class was in progress and not to show up. vpw then showed up and demanded to be let in anyway. BGL let him. Thar's TOTALLY not what vpw said to do with any pfal class, and not what vpw would have done. Sounds like you've constructed a vile, mean version of BGL that didn't exist to try to excuse vpw for being vile and mean. It's part of your "vpw gets a free pass on almost everything because it's all acceptable behavior", which it isn't and never was.
Well said.
I concur with everything WW said in this post. BG Leonard's class had already started and then, wierwille showed up. BGL let him in.
I heard VPW wanted to take BG's class after hearing that BG threw a student out and down a flight of stairs who dared to show up late. They both were pretty rough and tumble guys. Not my types, but I respect the Word that they both did teach.
Let's pressume your account is correct.
So all the student did was show up late, huh? And, for that he was thrown down a flight of stairs, huh? Can anyone imagine Jesus doing this to one of the apostles?
And then Saint Vic seeks out this individual because of his unchristian like behavior, no less.
So, tell me, how does one learn Christian behavior from people who don't behave like Christians
So all the student did was show up late, huh? And, for that he was thrown down a flight of stairs, huh? Can anyone imagine Jesus doing this to one of the apostles?
And then Saint Vic seeks out this individual because of his unchristian like behavior, no less.
So, tell me, how does one learn Christian behavior from people who don't behave like Christians
Soc, great question! I learned Christian behavior, once I left TWI. A lot of non-Christians, I think are more Godly, than Christians. I learned Christian behavior by reading about Jesus Christ. I personally try to live the Golden Rule, everyday. I treat people the way, I would like to be treated.
Soc, great question! I learned Christian behavior, once I left TWI. A lot of non-Christians, I think are more Godly, than Christians. I learned Christian behavior by reading about Jesus Christ. I personally try to live the Golden Rule, everyday. I treat people the way, I would like to be treated.
oh my gosh !
Grace, you have summarized the essence of my belief system.
Soc, great question! I learned Christian behavior, once I left TWI. A lot of non-Christians, I think are more Godly, than Christians. I learned Christian behavior by reading about Jesus Christ. I personally try to live the Golden Rule, everyday. I treat people the way, I would like to be treated.
I, too, try to live by the Golden Rule, Grace.
However, with one caveat: The converse of the Golden Rule: Treat others the way they treat you.
Not long ago, I worked with a guy who everytime he wanted my attention, he whistled at me or shouted Yo!
I took him aside and assertively told him my name and to use that when he wanted my attention.
Two days later, "Yo!!"
After a sigh, I once again took him aside:
"Haven't we had the yo conversation? Once again, use my name. And if you can't remember my name...You know what I do when I don't know someone's name? Sir! or ma'am! To some people manners and politeness may be a sign of weakness, but to me they're a sign of breeding."
However, with one caveat: The converse of the Golden Rule: Treat others the way they treat you.
Not long ago, I worked with a guy who everytime he wanted my attention, he whistled at me or shouted Yo!
I took him aside and assertively told him my name and to use that when he wanted my attention.
Two days later, "Yo!!"
After a sigh, I once again took him aside:
"Haven't we had the yo conversation? Once again, use my name. And if you can't remember my name...You know what I do when I don't know someone's name? Sir! or ma'am! To some people manners and politeness may be a sign of weakness, but to me they're a sign of breeding."
Grace, you have summarized the essence of my belief system.
T-Bone, thanks!! To me, it is very basic; treat others well. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I spent most of my life working with kids, and I figured if it worked with kids, it might work with Big People.
For those who arrived late to the party, this was Mike. Some of Mike's posts have contained the following:
that vpw had an "OVERABUNDANCE of brains and brawn" and was "OVERgifted." When Jesus returns, he will have a copy of the Orange Book in his hands and be teaching you from it. He wasn't joking either. "Quite serious. I've seen him this way several times." He thinks the Bible is inaccurate, but has called the written pfal materials and twi materials "GOD-BREATHED."
I swear, I'm neither making this up, nor exaggerating, nor changing his meaning by removing relevant context.
In my opinion this above post is the voice of reason giving a summary of an outlandish belief system.
== == == ==
Now what I find very fascinating is the degree to which a person will go to obfuscate issues and challenge any intelligent criticism of the cornerstone of that outlandish belief system; on this thread as well as others - it has become monotonous how much Mike tries to justify wierwille's abhorrent behavior; and it's not like we're specifically criticizing PFAL or any particular way-doctrine when Mike starts launching a counterattack - it's when folks talk about the cornerstone of Mike's belief system - wierwille himself....
...yeah, yeah I know - Mike thinks PFAL / and other TWI materials are god-breathed and that's really what all the fuss is about and why he's so upset with the critics...but what is odd is how much Mike has to go through contortions of logic and rhetoric to try and convince people that wierwille is of the same caliber of character as those who wrote the scriptures...I guess for some reason he feels the need to shore up the reputation of his favorite deluded plagiarist ....I guess he can't fathom why others don't see the greatness in wierwille's "works" - as if folks have some mental defect - so he says things like Grease Spotters suffer from intellectual inbreeding.
here’s Mike responding to someone who took offense at his “intellectual inbreeding" statement:
22 hours ago, Mike said:
Yes, and I apologize fr that. I thought I had softened that line down, but my edit seems to have gotten lost.
What do you think of the idea, though?
Suppose I had been more diplomatic with my text. how would you have reacted to the idea it was conveying?
I try to have fellowship with most all types of grads, even the ones with who I strongly disagree. I see intellectual inbreeding and insularity going on all the time with all humans dealing with religion and politics. I would like to see lots of people regularly crossing sharp boundaries for detailed civil discussion and new ideas. Do you? I regularly try to have friendly discussions with TWI members. After decades of turning me down, recent years it has changed for the better. I wonder how many ardent Trump supporters can enjoy beers with members of the far Left? I learn from both sides.
Notice the little bit of backpedaling and soft-selling – with Mike’s trying to suggest a discussion of wierwille’s gross plagiarism, licentious lifestyle or megalomaniac style of leadership should be no different than any other discussion about religion or politics throughout the world. This may take some more research – I mean…just wondering how many religions or political systems there are in the world today that are based on large-scale plagiarism, abject immorality and megalomania.
== == == ==
Another curious thing that intrigues me is to try and figure out what motivates someone to make such an obvious and flimsy attempt to rewrite history:
19 hours ago, Mike said:
Not "put things in writing,"
but "put things in book and magazine form."
There were plenty of things that he put in writing that were not-God breathed. He even wrote that in PFAL page 83.
The story of the Bible is one of God working with any sinner to the extent the sinner believes.
Yes, he was a jerk at times. (How stinky is YOUR old man nature?) I've posted several stories here from one of his High School classmates with whom I worked with daily at HQ for 2 years. She told me how he'd get into fights and crash parties and was a show off. He was also such a religious terror, later on as a pastor, that some people in his congregation put their Pagan Christmas Trees on wheels to get them quickly hidden should the pastor be in the neighborhood. She ALSO told me that he mellowed significantly when he started speaking in tongues around 1952. Uncle Harry also had a hand in his relative taming.
I heard VPW wanted to take BG's class after hearing that BG threw a student out and down a flight of stairs who dared to show up late. They both were pretty rough and tumble guys. Not my types, but I respect the Word that they both did teach.
== == == == ==
and below - the attempts to rewrite history are exposed
10 hours ago, WordWolf said:
What you "heard" contradicts what vpw said happened, what Mrs w said happened, what both said about him, and what we heard from people who actually met him, interacted with him, and took his class. There's one CONSISTENT account of BGL (really nice guy-which is why vpw got away with what he got away with. Your story crashes hard into what happened. vpw HIMSELF said that he contacted BGL and was told the current class was in progress and not to show up. vpw then showed up and demanded to be let in anyway. BGL let him. Thar's TOTALLY not what vpw said to do with any pfal class, and not what vpw would have done. Sounds like you've constructed a vile, mean version of BGL that didn't exist to try to excuse vpw for being vile and mean. It's part of your "vpw gets a free pass on almost everything because it's all acceptable behavior", which it isn't and never was.
It must be difficult for someone to get on the local news and admit they've been swindled out of their life savings. Now, imagine how it must be next to impossible for someone to get on the world wide web and concede they've flushed nearly the last 50 years of their life down the crapper chasing a non-existent, elusive golden pony. I wouldn't look for it to happen anytime soon.
*
I've got a little Stowwwry for you.
It's kind of a parable, I guess, except it really happened.
When I was just a little whipper, I wanted to be a cowboy.
Maybe you did too. Lots of kids did back then.
More than anything, I wanted a Palomino pony.(That's that beautiful golden color you see in the movies.)
Trouble is, that's not too realistic for a kid in the inner city.
One day, as I was out front playing broomstick cowboy with the neighbor kid, I happened to look down toward the end of the block just in the nick of time to see something that was a beautiful golden color, turning the corner, moving away from us.
What do you suppose it was I saw?
Yep. You guessed it.
It was, of all things, a Palomino pony.
Just to be sure, I asked the neighbor if she had seen it too.
She was sure she had.
We grabbed our broomsticks and set out immediately, at a full gallop, in pursuit of that buckin' bronco.
There was no time to consider where we would keep it or what we would feed it.
We were on a mission.
We were so excited, we didn't even notice the houses that became a blur as we flew past them.
Huffing and puffing, we made it to the end of the street and turned the corner.
And there it was, our Palomino pony.
He was still on the run, though, and we only caught a glimpse of that magnificent yellow tail streaming in the wind as it turned the next corner at full speed.
We only paused long enough to catch a quick gulp of air as we both looked at each other in a knowing fashion.
We knew we had to continue the pursuit.
Off we went, gasping for air and straining to run just a little bit faster in an effort to gain some distance.
At last, we made it to the next corner.
Again, we only caught a glimpse of that golden tail and his rear hooves as he toyed with our chase as if it were a game.
The scenario repeated itself until we were back where we started and the pony we wanted so badly had vanished into thin air.
If you still believe The Way can make fantasy come true you'll spend forever grasping at thin air.
Trouble is, that's not too realistic for a kid in the inner city.
Inner city? New Knoxville? Lima?
I was born in the projects, just off Starkeweather--not too far from St. Augustine and the Eastern Orthodox Church--in interurban Cleveland. I was raised in the 14th and Clarke neighborhood, just two blocks from the Flats. Grassy Hill, the bank of the valley leading to the Flats, was one of my playgrounds.
I was born in the projects, just off Starkeweather--not too far from St. Augustine and the Eastern Orthodox Church--in interurban Cleveland. I was raised in the 14th and Clarke neighborhood, just two blocks from the Flats. Grassy Hill, the bank of the valley leading to the Flats, was one of my playgrounds.
Cleveland--now there's a city.
W.25th & Denison...Used to sled ride in Riverside Cemetery, right about where I 71 is now.
It must be difficult for someone to get on the local news and admit they've been swindled out of their life savings. Now, imagine how it must be next to impossible for someone to get on the world wide web and concede they've flushed nearly the last 50 years of their life down the crapper chasing a non-existent, elusive golden pony. I wouldn't look for it to happen anytime soon.
*
I've got a little Stowwwry for you.
It's kind of a parable, I guess, except it really happened.
When I was just a little whipper, I wanted to be a cowboy.
Maybe you did too. Lots of kids did back then.
More than anything, I wanted a Palomino pony.(That's that beautiful golden color you see in the movies.)
Trouble is, that's not too realistic for a kid in the inner city.
One day, as I was out front playing broomstick cowboy with the neighbor kid, I happened to look down toward the end of the block just in the nick of time to see something that was a beautiful golden color, turning the corner, moving away from us.
What do you suppose it was I saw?
Yep. You guessed it.
It was, of all things, a Palomino pony.
Just to be sure, I asked the neighbor if she had seen it too.
She was sure she had.
We grabbed our broomsticks and set out immediately, at a full gallop, in pursuit of that buckin' bronco.
There was no time to consider where we would keep it or what we would feed it.
We were on a mission.
We were so excited, we didn't even notice the houses that became a blur as we flew past them.
Huffing and puffing, we made it to the end of the street and turned the corner.
And there it was, our Palomino pony.
He was still on the run, though, and we only caught a glimpse of that magnificent yellow tail streaming in the wind as it turned the next corner at full speed.
We only paused long enough to catch a quick gulp of air as we both looked at each other in a knowing fashion.
We knew we had to continue the pursuit.
Off we went, gasping for air and straining to run just a little bit faster in an effort to gain some distance.
At last, we made it to the next corner.
Again, we only caught a glimpse of that golden tail and his rear hooves as he toyed with our chase as if it were a game.
The scenario repeated itself until we were back where we started and the pony we wanted so badly had vanished into thin air.
If you still believe The Way can make fantasy come true you'll spend forever grasping at thin air.
So all the student did was show up late, huh? And, for that he was thrown down a flight of stairs, huh? Can anyone imagine Jesus doing this to one of the apostles?
And then Saint Vic seeks out this individual because of his unchristian like behavior, no less.
So, tell me, how does one learn Christian behavior from people who don't behave like Christians
Soc, this post bothers me greatly. How dare VPW throw anyone down the stairs for any reason?? I have been late a few times myself; sometimes things happen that we can't control. Personally, if anyone tried to throw me down the stairs, I would place charges. I have never understood why people allowed VPW to get away with such uncivilized behavior, but perhaps they were afraid of him.
Soc, this post bothers me greatly. How dare VPW throw anyone down the stairs for any reason?? I have been late a few times myself; sometimes things happen that we can't control. Personally, if anyone tried to throw me down the stairs, I would place charges. I have never understood why people allowed VPW to get away with such uncivilized behavior, but perhaps they were afraid of him.
According to Mike it wasn't Saint Vic that tossed the student, but BG Leonard.
I would agree with you about that being a punishment that don't fit the crime.
However, it speaks volumes about Saint Vic's personality if that's the reason he seeked him out.
Isn't there another account where a guy snapped at his wife and Saint Vic said his opinion of the individual grew at that moment?
According to Mike it wasn't Saint Vic that tossed the student, but BG Leonard.
Soc, excuse me!! Whoever tossed the student down the stairs, should not have done it. People are learning about God's Mercy, and Grace, and someone gets tossed down the stairs for being late?? How uncivilized!
Soc, excuse me!! Whoever tossed the student down the stairs, should not have done it. People are learning about God's Mercy, and Grace, and someone gets tossed down the stairs for being late?? How uncivilized!
I added more comment to the previous post.
I agree with you whole heartedly. But, if that's the reason Saint Vic seeked him out, it says volumes about the kind of person he was.
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
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WordWolf
What you "heard" contradicts what vpw said happened, what Mrs w said happened, what both said about him, and what we heard from people who actually met him, interacted with him, and took his class. There's one CONSISTENT account of BGL (really nice guy-which is why vpw got away with what he got away with. Your story crashes hard into what happened. vpw HIMSELF said that he contacted BGL and was told the current class was in progress and not to show up. vpw then showed up and demanded to be let in anyway. BGL let him. Thar's TOTALLY not what vpw said to do with any pfal class, and not what vpw would have done. Sounds like you've constructed a vile, mean version of BGL that didn't exist to try to excuse vpw for being vile and mean. It's part of your "vpw gets a free pass on almost everything because it's all acceptable behavior", which it isn't and never was.
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WordWolf
Thanks. The writing, at least, is actually somewhat sloppy and could use a little polish. It's good by internet standards but not quite up to publishing standards. As for brains, I've worked hard with what I have, and not everyone can say that. I makes a BIG difference, especially as you get older.
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WordWolf
It goes fairly well. I'm married, raising a kid, and feeling optimistic about the future- certainly more than a decade or so ago.
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skyrider
Well said.
I concur with everything WW said in this post. BG Leonard's class had already started and then, wierwille showed up. BGL let him in.
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So_crates
Let's pressume your account is correct.
So all the student did was show up late, huh? And, for that he was thrown down a flight of stairs, huh? Can anyone imagine Jesus doing this to one of the apostles?
And then Saint Vic seeks out this individual because of his unchristian like behavior, no less.
So, tell me, how does one learn Christian behavior from people who don't behave like Christians
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Grace Valerie Claire
Soc, great question! I learned Christian behavior, once I left TWI. A lot of non-Christians, I think are more Godly, than Christians. I learned Christian behavior by reading about Jesus Christ. I personally try to live the Golden Rule, everyday. I treat people the way, I would like to be treated.
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T-Bone
oh my gosh !
Grace, you have summarized the essence of my belief system.
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waysider
VPW vs. BGL
Every hero needs a nemesis.
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So_crates
I, too, try to live by the Golden Rule, Grace.
However, with one caveat: The converse of the Golden Rule: Treat others the way they treat you.
Not long ago, I worked with a guy who everytime he wanted my attention, he whistled at me or shouted Yo!
I took him aside and assertively told him my name and to use that when he wanted my attention.
Two days later, "Yo!!"
After a sigh, I once again took him aside:
"Haven't we had the yo conversation? Once again, use my name. And if you can't remember my name...You know what I do when I don't know someone's name? Sir! or ma'am! To some people manners and politeness may be a sign of weakness, but to me they're a sign of breeding."
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Grace Valerie Claire
Soc,
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way,
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, thanks!! To me, it is very basic; treat others well. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I spent most of my life working with kids, and I figured if it worked with kids, it might work with Big People.
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T-Bone
In my opinion this above post is the voice of reason giving a summary of an outlandish belief system.
== == == ==
Now what I find very fascinating is the degree to which a person will go to obfuscate issues and challenge any intelligent criticism of the cornerstone of that outlandish belief system; on this thread as well as others - it has become monotonous how much Mike tries to justify wierwille's abhorrent behavior; and it's not like we're specifically criticizing PFAL or any particular way-doctrine when Mike starts launching a counterattack - it's when folks talk about the cornerstone of Mike's belief system - wierwille himself....
...yeah, yeah I know - Mike thinks PFAL / and other TWI materials are god-breathed and that's really what all the fuss is about and why he's so upset with the critics...but what is odd is how much Mike has to go through contortions of logic and rhetoric to try and convince people that wierwille is of the same caliber of character as those who wrote the scriptures...I guess for some reason he feels the need to shore up the reputation of his favorite deluded plagiarist ....I guess he can't fathom why others don't see the greatness in wierwille's "works" - as if folks have some mental defect - so he says things like Grease Spotters suffer from intellectual inbreeding.
here’s Mike responding to someone who took offense at his “intellectual inbreeding" statement:
Notice the little bit of backpedaling and soft-selling – with Mike’s trying to suggest a discussion of wierwille’s gross plagiarism, licentious lifestyle or megalomaniac style of leadership should be no different than any other discussion about religion or politics throughout the world. This may take some more research – I mean…just wondering how many religions or political systems there are in the world today that are based on large-scale plagiarism, abject immorality and megalomania.
== == == ==
Another curious thing that intrigues me is to try and figure out what motivates someone to make such an obvious and flimsy attempt to rewrite history:
== == == == ==
and below - the attempts to rewrite history are exposed
Edited by T-Boneformatting & clarity
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waysider
It must be difficult for someone to get on the local news and admit they've been swindled out of their life savings. Now, imagine how it must be next to impossible for someone to get on the world wide web and concede they've flushed nearly the last 50 years of their life down the crapper chasing a non-existent, elusive golden pony. I wouldn't look for it to happen anytime soon.
*
I've got a little Stowwwry for you.
It's kind of a parable, I guess, except it really happened.
When I was just a little whipper, I wanted to be a cowboy.
Maybe you did too. Lots of kids did back then.
More than anything, I wanted a Palomino pony.(That's that beautiful golden color you see in the movies.)
Trouble is, that's not too realistic for a kid in the inner city.
One day, as I was out front playing broomstick cowboy with the neighbor kid, I happened to look down toward the end of the block just in the nick of time to see something that was a beautiful golden color, turning the corner, moving away from us.
What do you suppose it was I saw?
Yep. You guessed it.
It was, of all things, a Palomino pony.
Just to be sure, I asked the neighbor if she had seen it too.
She was sure she had.
We grabbed our broomsticks and set out immediately, at a full gallop, in pursuit of that buckin' bronco.
There was no time to consider where we would keep it or what we would feed it.
We were on a mission.
We were so excited, we didn't even notice the houses that became a blur as we flew past them.
Huffing and puffing, we made it to the end of the street and turned the corner.
And there it was, our Palomino pony.
He was still on the run, though, and we only caught a glimpse of that magnificent yellow tail streaming in the wind as it turned the next corner at full speed.
We only paused long enough to catch a quick gulp of air as we both looked at each other in a knowing fashion.
We knew we had to continue the pursuit.
Off we went, gasping for air and straining to run just a little bit faster in an effort to gain some distance.
At last, we made it to the next corner.
Again, we only caught a glimpse of that golden tail and his rear hooves as he toyed with our chase as if it were a game.
The scenario repeated itself until we were back where we started and the pony we wanted so badly had vanished into thin air.
If you still believe The Way can make fantasy come true you'll spend forever grasping at thin air.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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So_crates
Inner city? New Knoxville? Lima?
I was born in the projects, just off Starkeweather--not too far from St. Augustine and the Eastern Orthodox Church--in interurban Cleveland. I was raised in the 14th and Clarke neighborhood, just two blocks from the Flats. Grassy Hill, the bank of the valley leading to the Flats, was one of my playgrounds.
Cleveland--now there's a city.
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waysider
W.25th & Denison...Used to sled ride in Riverside Cemetery, right about where I 71 is now.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, you really have some great posts!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Soc, this post bothers me greatly. How dare VPW throw anyone down the stairs for any reason?? I have been late a few times myself; sometimes things happen that we can't control. Personally, if anyone tried to throw me down the stairs, I would place charges. I have never understood why people allowed VPW to get away with such uncivilized behavior, but perhaps they were afraid of him.
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So_crates
Near the Cleveland Zoo and the YMCA.
Ever go to the festival at St. Rocco's? That was where I started grade school. I continued in Buhrer, then attend old Lincoln High School
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, I have never been to Cleveland, but isn't the Rock&Roll Hall of Fame there? I think LCM used to be upset about having it in the Cleveland area.
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So_crates
According to Mike it wasn't Saint Vic that tossed the student, but BG Leonard.
I would agree with you about that being a punishment that don't fit the crime.
However, it speaks volumes about Saint Vic's personality if that's the reason he seeked him out.
Isn't there another account where a guy snapped at his wife and Saint Vic said his opinion of the individual grew at that moment?
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Grace Valerie Claire
Soc, excuse me!! Whoever tossed the student down the stairs, should not have done it. People are learning about God's Mercy, and Grace, and someone gets tossed down the stairs for being late?? How uncivilized!
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So_crates
I added more comment to the previous post.
I agree with you whole heartedly. But, if that's the reason Saint Vic seeked him out, it says volumes about the kind of person he was.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Soc,
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