with recent events of rape/abuse by Harvey Wienstein, Roy Moore, Al Franken, and media apologizing for Bill Clinton, It's time that the media re-examine allegations by Wierwille and Martindale to the public.
Fat chance of TWI’s sexual assaults coming to light by the media - but your post got me thinking about the multiple methods of suppression in TWI.
The abuse of power / sexual harassment have been a part of our culture for a long time. So I can understand the thinking of the victims in not coming forward in times past - being afraid of the backlash or the negative impact to their career, etc.
But besides that - wierwille had several other methods to suppress word getting out about his sexual assaults. Things like “Lockbox” , adulation for the man of god, and even subverting the conscience of victims by saying things like “anything done in the love of god is ok”.
Sorry - didn’t me to get off topic - but thought I should throw my 2 cents in.
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it a try and will employ a great technique I learned from the “master “ himself by plagiarizing a little bit from the gospel crucifixion account:
It was about the ninth session, and the whole mess was plodding along like it always did - and there was darkness over the whole class like it was in the beginning with audio and Beta tapes.
wierwille said to himself “ i am finished - ain’t no way I can pull this off again” ; then he cried in a loud voice “I thirst!” - and immediately one of his assistants refilled his cup with Drambuie.
looking down from the double-cross he liked to pull on his adoring fans he said “my peeps, behold thy teacher.” Then one of the ordained who stood guard, shook his head and said to himself “this truly is a waste of time.”
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it a try and will employ a great technique I learned from the “master “ himself by plagiarizing a little bit from the gospel crucifixion account:
It was about the ninth session, and the whole mess was plodding along like it always did - and there was darkness over the whole class like it was in the beginning with audio and Beta tapes.
wierwille said to himself “ i am finished - ain’t no way I can pull this off again” ; then he cried in a loud voice “I thirst!” - and immediately one of his assistants refilled his cup with Drambuie.
looking down from the double-cross he liked to pull on his adoring fans he said “my peeps, behold thy teacher.” Then one of the ordained who stood guard, shook his head and said to himself “this truly is a waste of time.”
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it a try and will employ a great technique I learned from the “master “ himself by plagiarizing a little bit from the gospel crucifixion account:
It was about the ninth session, and the whole mess was plodding along like it always did - and there was darkness over the whole class like it was in the beginning with audio and Beta tapes.
wierwille said to himself “ i am finished - ain’t no way I can pull this off again” ; then he cried in a loud voice “I thirst!” - and immediately one of his assistants refilled his cup with Drambuie.
looking down from the double-cross he liked to pull on his adoring fans he said “my peeps, behold thy teacher.” Then one of the ordained who stood guard, shook his head and said to himself “this truly is a waste of time.”
At lunch one day, in the BRC basement, Dr announced that as part of his preparation for teaching the new class he was going to “take” the class for the first time. At that time he had only seen the first half hour of the ‘67 film class, so in order to prepare for teaching the same material again, Dr set up a schedule to watch the entire thing. Every day he’d show up at lunch and tell us which session he was in as he progressed through the class. Some days he did one session or two, other days he did only a part.
When Dr completed Session Five he reported to us that he had Christ in him, “the hope of glory” and we all cheered. Word went around that some staffers were doing up some calligraphy on a PFAL diploma for Dr, so that he could become an official “PFAL Grad” like us. Everyone was quite excited to see Dr take the class this way. It was a wonderful touch to see this as we all worked hard to prepare for PFAL’77. I say “all” in the sense that even though not all was totally perfect, we never voiced it, and it WAS pretty darn good how we all got along, especially compared to ten years later. These were still the “good old days” in many ways.
Then one day Dr showed up at lunch with a glum look on his face.
I see the propaganda wing of The Way was still working full force.
Were we to believe someone who didn't have the patience or gumption to do his own research sat on his hams for three hours watching a snoozefest?
More like he had someone else watch it, then give him the Cliff's Note version complete with a highlight to tell all in attendance.
Fat chance of TWI’s sexual assaults coming to light by the media - but your post got me thinking about the multiple methods of suppression in TWI.
The abuse of power / sexual harassment have been a part of our culture for a long time. So I can understand the thinking of the victims in not coming forward in times past - being afraid of the backlash or the negative impact to their career, etc.
But besides that - wierwille had several other methods to suppress word getting out about his sexual assaults. Things like “Lockbox” , adulation for the man of god, and even subverting the conscience of victims by saying things like “anything done in the love of god is ok”.
Sorry - didn’t me to get off topic - but thought I should throw my 2 cents in.
I don't know, the only thing preventing TWI's sexual assaults from coming to light by the media is that we don't have a celebrity like Leah Remini to do a documentary expose, absorb all the hate mail, and sit people down interview style to document all the personal impact.
Skyrider,
One of your bullet points may need a date change. HQ money funneling began in earnest in 1972.
I'd like to know more about your 1984 point on a public confrontation. I know nothing of that.
Yes Sky, I do would like to know about that public meeting. Imagine VPW telling them they are "off the word." I think that might have been a very interesting meeting!!
Hey Mike......I see you made your way back to GSC.
Before I answer your questions, I was wondering if you cared to comment on several of my posts in this thread. Noted: Mrs. Wierwille gives first-hand documentation of her husband's life and twi's history in her 1996 book, Born Again To Serve. Most specifically, the B.G. Leonard's foundational classes in Calgary, Alberta and that whole timeline.
It is clear that victor paul wierwille was ensconced in the denominational church mindset and had NO ORIGINALITY OR CONCEPTS percolating in his thinking......SO HE ATTENDED OTHER MEN'S SEMINARS AND RETREATS. And, when he found his way to B.G. Leonard's foundational class.........then, he set the wheels in motion for an "independent, class-based ministry" outside of the denomination structure. The whole timeline connects the dots and how wierwille "put it all together."
On 11/15/2017 at 9:48 AM, skyrider said:
Go Ahead, Mike...............protest as much as you like
But how are you going to protest FIRST-HAND, EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS and DOCUMENTATION from Mrs. Wierwille?
She was the dutiful wife who gave her accounting of events.
She documented many things that stand juxtaposed to vpw's snappy bloviating.
She, too, sat in Leonard's class......and then, her husband rushed home and started signing up people for that Oct 1953 class.
Idolizing wierwille doesn't change twi's historical reckoning of its theft and plagiarism. TWI was a SPLINTER from Leonard's work and class-based ministry.
It is an undeniable FACT.
Quote
Page 100..........
"The people who had been part of B.G. Leonard's class on 'The Gifts of the Spirit' were considered graduates and not included in the rosters of Dr. Wierwille's classes."
Hey Mike......I see you made your way back to GSC.
Before I answer your questions, I was wondering if you cared to comment on several of my posts in this thread.
Hi skyrider,
I'm swamped with work right now, my business being seasonal sensitive. Going into a detailed and organized answer to your questions may be possible when the rainy weather hits next month.
I do see recurring themes, though, in both your questions and in many other comments and threads here in recent months, and by other posters as well. However they seem to all be muted discussions, lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings. Maybe I can spice up the conversations a little with some oft overlooked items.
One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW.
BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!
BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift. How many other errors and wrong slants did his class have?
And where did BG get his material from?
And what is this great obsession with originality?Doesn’t anyone have any deep thoughts on that?Has anyone EVER entertained the thought (and collected data) that most of what we mean by “originality” is actually multiple-hidden sources?
And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it,even though I reposted it a few months ago here.
As for Mrs Wierwille, who ever said her words were canonical? And who ever said VPW’s words were canonical? Not me. I say he was often wrong. It’s only what he put in book and magazine form that I see as special. I never held that all his memories would be accurate.
Those are some unorganized responses, lacking the full detail I’d like to hammer on.
I do see recurring themes, though, in both your questions and in many other comments and threads here in recent months, and by other posters as well. However they seem to all be muted discussions, lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings.
I'm swamped with work right now, my business being seasonal sensitive. Going into a detailed and organized answer to your questions may be possible when the rainy weather hits next month.
I do see recurring themes, though, in both your questions and in many other comments and threads here in recent months, and by other posters as well. However they seem to all be muted discussions, lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings. Maybe I can spice up the conversations a little with some oft overlooked items...(SNIP)
In my opinion, if one has a tendency to overlook wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and megalomaniac style of leadership it might suggest the intellectual inbreeding between PFAL and an awestruck student…as science notes, inbreeding can produce an unusually high frequency of weaknesses, genetic disorders and autoimmune issues…since we’re speaking metaphorically - - ain’t no tellin’ what can happen.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
HOWDY! I miss you folks. How's it going?
I’m doing ok, Mike ...thanks for asking...glad to hear you’re busy with work and wish you the best this holiday season and for the new year!
I'm swamped with work right now, my business being seasonal sensitive. Going into a detailed and organized answer to your questions may be possible when the rainy weather hits next month.
I do see recurring themes, though, in both your questions and in many other comments and threads here in recent months, and by other posters as well. However they seem to all be muted discussions, lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings. Maybe I can spice up the conversations a little with some oft overlooked items.
One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW.
BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!
BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift. How many other errors and wrong slants did his class have?
And where did BG get his material from?
And what is this great obsession with originality?Doesn’t anyone have any deep thoughts on that?Has anyone EVER entertained the thought (and collected data) that most of what we mean by “originality” is actually multiple-hidden sources?
And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it,even though I reposted it a few months ago here.
As for Mrs Wierwille, who ever said her words were canonical? And who ever said VPW’s words were canonical? Not me. I say he was often wrong. It’s only what he put in book and magazine form that I see as special. I never held that all his memories would be accurate.
Those are some unorganized responses, lacking the full detail I’d like to hammer on.
Mike.....as you noted, "unorganized responses"......it looks like you're all over the map on this reply.
So, to even respond to you......I'll have to address its components.
"One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW." Not sure I've heard anyone here state it that way......."the supremacy of BG Leonard's class"........but most assuredly was the origins of wierwille's October 1953 class and subsequent classes where he patched in some of Stiles and Bullinger, also. And, what's with your comment on "BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW".............Mike, I don't know if you meant that the way it came out, but are you referring to victor paul wierwille as a jerk?
"BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!" And your point is?........I'm not sure that this statement will have much weight around here, because many (most) of us are in the camp that it was a detour regarding life AND Christianity. Wierwille was into building a cult, not preaching and practicing true Christian doctrine and the One Body of Christ.
"BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift. How many other errors and wrong slants did his class have?" And, wierwille was in great error when he went off on tangents of the absent Christ and skewing dispensationalism. In fact, Mike........I've stated this many times on this site, so please bear with me.......I was on staff, corps and in wierwille's presence dozens of times in unique situations and NOT ONCE did I ever see the man operate any of the "big six manifestations" even when he claimed a guy was possessed in the BRC. All wierwille did was get angry, stammer meaningless wordspeak and tried to intimidate him with confrontation.
"Has anyone EVER entertained the thought (and collected data) that most of what we mean by “originality” is actually multiple-hidden sources? Well.....if you want to explain your hypothesis on it, you might want to rename it. According to Wikipedia.....originality is the aspect of created or invented works as being new or novel, and thus distinguishable from reproductions, clones, forgeries,or derivative works. An original work is one not received from others nor one copied from or based upon the work of others.
"As for Mrs Wierwille, who ever said her words were canonical? And who ever said VPW’s words were canonical? Not me. I say he was often wrong. It’s only what he put in book and magazine form that I see as special. I never held that all his memories would be accurate."
So, on point 5............is that how you think God via holy spirit operated in wierwille?
Just so I got this straight.........you believe that wierwille was often wrong when he spoke or taught, but when he put things in writing that was special?
and that reminds me of one PFAL ‘77 session when he was going over one of his wooden phrases “things equal to the same thing are equal to each other” - when suddenly “rev” Bob M jumps up in the balcony (we were seated near him) - cups his hands around his mouth megaphone-style and yells “the transitive property of equality”...I can’t remember the reaction of wierwille on stage because I was awe struck - or maybe aghast - that someone in the class would call out while “doctor” was teaching.
This goes to show you the students knew the material better than the “teacher” - if you want to call him that...he11, he couldn’t even be a substitute teacher...he would be the last resort if you’re short handed on substitute teachers - so you get the doofus who makes copies in the admin’s office figuring maybe he’ll at least be able to parrot some of the material that he copied and wing it to fill in the rest.
Wow - amazing insight here T-Bone.
This Boob M - the same dude who is kind of the leader of the Revival and Restoration Group - that has concluded in concurring with us here on the `Spot that God did not divide Christians into denominations, that is man's shortcomings. This guy was the one who saw through the Snake Oil Salesman as early as `77 - and honestly, like anyone with a college education and who has had a background in mathematics, "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" sounds exactly like a Rube Goldberg description of the mathematics principle of the transitive property of equality.
In fact, it sounds like "the Teacher" was someone with a Doctoral degree who couldn't pass a general studies mathematics college class required for graduation. Perhaps his undergrad, masters, and cereal boxtop doctorate can't stand up to the test of "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?"
Thanks for the insight.
For my life, it expands upon the "hindsight is 20/20 concept". And makes me thankful for telling the truth here.
Jay, I think there is a lot of intellectual information on this Web Site. For example, Sky and DWBH, both know a lot about the inner workings of TWI, because they witnessed it first-hand. I think their posts are well-written, and very thoughtful. But I guess what I consider "intellectual information," is different from others POV.
"lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings." We still represent more points of view than just the "praise vpw" "discussions" you prefer.
"One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW. " You heard incorrectly. We heard from people who actually attended it. It was live so it was better "in production" than audio or video of vpw with errors left in. It was meant specifically for ministers and pastors, not the general public. It was meant so ministers and pastors could go bless their congregations. It was not meant as a source of revenue. BGL was a genuinely nice guy, and even vpw said so. He could have thrown vpw out when vpw was told the class was closed, then showed up to insist on being included in a class already in progress. He chose not to. He could have sued vpw when he found out about the plagiarism. but was so serious about Christian not suing Christian (based on the Bible) that he refused to, instead adding notices to his books on how plagiarism was wrong. And all the people who actually worked with him or took his classes said he was nice.
"BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!" It was never about marketing. He aimed his classes at pastors and ministers, to equip them to be better pastors and ministers. He succeeded there.
"BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift." He was not in GREAT error because his vocabulary referred to SIT as a gift, but his explanations and instructions all reflected a position that it was not a separate gift (all Christians were automatically entitled to it, etc.) Now, if twi and BGL are correct, this is actually a minor point because the practice taught doesn't reflect the poor vocabulary choice. If twi and BGL are both incorrect because the modern thing is not the SIT used at Pentecost, then he's less bad off than vpw, since BGL spent more time on healing, word of knowledge, etc, and vpw built up 2 whole classes on TIP.
"And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it, even though I reposted it a few months ago here." Buried about 100 pages into one single book advertising twi which was never a collateral reading (The Way-Living in Love) was vpw's off-hand comment that "Nothing I do is original" and claimed his originality was in putting the class together. Anyone except someone desperate to exonerate vpw of rampant plagiarism would say that was nothing like an admission. He certainly never said that Leonard's class was the exact same class vpw taught, in every particular, a few months after taking BGL's class. THAT would have been an admission of something. It's a non-issue, because it wasn't an admission of anything, and WAS an evasion about the class already having been put together-which it had been. We've mentioned this lots of times, but someone around here forgets lots of stuff and doesn't admit it.
==========================================
For those who arrived late to the party, this was Mike. Some of Mike's posts have contained the following:
that vpw had an "OVERABUNDANCE of brains and brawn" and was "OVERgifted." When Jesus returns, he will have a copy of the Orange Book in his hands and be teaching you from it. He wasn't joking either. "Quite serious. I've seen him this way several times." He thinks the Bible is inaccurate, but has called the written pfal materials and twi materials "GOD-BREATHED."
I swear, I'm neither making this up, nor exaggerating, nor changing his meaning by removing relevant context.
Yes, and I apologize fr that. I thought I had softened that line down, but my edit seems to have gotten lost.
What do you think of the idea, though?
Suppose I had been more diplomatic with my text. how would you have reacted to the idea it was conveying?
I try to have fellowship with most all types of grads, even the ones with who I strongly disagree. I see intellectual inbreeding and insularity going on all the time with all humans dealing with religion and politics. I would like to see lots of people regularly crossing sharp boundaries for detailed civil discussion and new ideas. Do you? I regularly try to have friendly discussions with TWI members. After decades of turning me down, recent years it has changed for the better. I wonder how many ardent Trump supporters can enjoy beers with members of the far Left? I learn from both sides.
"lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings." We still represent more points of view than just the "praise vpw" "discussions" you prefer.
"One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW. " You heard incorrectly. We heard from people who actually attended it. It was live so it was better "in production" than audio or video of vpw with errors left in. It was meant specifically for ministers and pastors, not the general public. It was meant so ministers and pastors could go bless their congregations. It was not meant as a source of revenue. BGL was a genuinely nice guy, and even vpw said so. He could have thrown vpw out when vpw was told the class was closed, then showed up to insist on being included in a class already in progress. He chose not to. He could have sued vpw when he found out about the plagiarism. but was so serious about Christian not suing Christian (based on the Bible) that he refused to, instead adding notices to his books on how plagiarism was wrong. And all the people who actually worked with him or took his classes said he was nice.
"BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!" It was never about marketing. He aimed his classes at pastors and ministers, to equip them to be better pastors and ministers. He succeeded there.
"BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift." He was not in GREAT error because his vocabulary referred to SIT as a gift, but his explanations and instructions all reflected a position that it was not a separate gift (all Christians were automatically entitled to it, etc.) Now, if twi and BGL are correct, this is actually a minor point because the practice taught doesn't reflect the poor vocabulary choice. If twi and BGL are both incorrect because the modern thing is not the SIT used at Pentecost, then he's less bad off than vpw, since BGL spent more time on healing, word of knowledge, etc, and vpw built up 2 whole classes on TIP.
"And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it, even though I reposted it a few months ago here." Buried about 100 pages into one single book advertising twi which was never a collateral reading (The Way-Living in Love) was vpw's off-hand comment that "Nothing I do is original" and claimed his originality was in putting the class together. Anyone except someone desperate to exonerate vpw of rampant plagiarism would say that was nothing like an admission. He certainly never said that Leonard's class was the exact same class vpw taught, in every particular, a few months after taking BGL's class. THAT would have been an admission of something. It's a non-issue, because it wasn't an admission of anything, and WAS an evasion about the class already having been put together-which it had been. We've mentioned this lots of times, but someone around here forgets lots of stuff and doesn't admit it.
==========================================
For those who arrived late to the party, this was Mike. Some of Mike's posts have contained the following:
that vpw had an "OVERABUNDANCE of brains and brawn" and was "OVERgifted." When Jesus returns, he will have a copy of the Orange Book in his hands and be teaching you from it. He wasn't joking either. "Quite serious. I've seen him this way several times." He thinks the Bible is inaccurate, but has called the written pfal materials and twi materials "GOD-BREATHED."
I swear, I'm neither making this up, nor exaggerating, nor changing his meaning by removing relevant context.
WW, I think when you were born, God gave you an abundance of brains, and great writing skills! Excellent post; thank you for posting!!
Mike.....as you noted, "unorganized responses"......it looks like you're all over the map on this reply.
Just so I got this straight.........you believe that wierwille was often wrong when he spoke or taught, but when he put things in writing that was special?
Not "put things in writing,"
but "put things in book and magazine form."
There were plenty of things that he put in writing that were not-God breathed. He even wrote that in PFAL page 83.
The story of the Bible is one of God working with any sinner to the extent the sinner believes.
Yes, he was a jerk at times. (How stinky is YOUR old man nature?) I've posted several stories here from one of his High School classmates with whom I worked with daily at HQ for 2 years. She told me how he'd get into fights and crash parties and was a show off. He was also such a religious terror, later on as a pastor, that some people in his congregation put their Pagan Christmas Trees on wheels to get them quickly hidden should the pastor be in the neighborhood. She ALSO told me that he mellowed significantly when he started speaking in tongues around 1952. Uncle Harry also had a hand in his relative taming.
I heard VPW wanted to take BG's class after hearing that BG threw a student out and down a flight of stairs who dared to show up late. They both were pretty rough and tumble guys. Not my types, but I respect the Word that they both did teach.
(SNIP)...The story of the Bible is one of God working with any sinner to the extent the sinner believes....(SNIP)
That seems a rather vacuous statement to make about the Bible. The above statement makes it sound like God is ok with a sinful lifestyle as long as you believe God for great things to come to pass and are doing "great exploits" for him.
Please provide scriptural references for that assertion.
There are many passages that indicate God puts a high priority on a contrite heart - - I think there's enough evidence in the Bible to indicate that God might be more concerned about a change of heart in the sinner rather than the status of one's belief system, what one believes, how big is their believing, all the things they believed God for.etc. - for example:
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise. Psalm 51:17 NIV
Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord? Who may stand in his holy place? The one who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not trust in an idol or swear by a false god. Psalm 24:3,4 NIV
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. I John 1:8-10 NIV
Not "put things in writing,"
but "put things in book and magazine form."
There were plenty of things that he put in writing that were not-God breathed. He even wrote that in PFAL page 83.
The story of the Bible is one of God working with any sinner to the extent the sinner believes.
Yes, he was a jerk at times. (How stinky is YOUR old man nature?) I've posted several stories here from one of his High School classmates with whom I worked with daily at HQ for 2 years. She told me how he'd get into fights and crash parties and was a show off. He was also such a religious terror, later on as a pastor, that some people in his congregation put their Pagan Christmas Trees on wheels to get them quickly hidden should the pastor be in the neighborhood. She ALSO told me that he mellowed significantly when he started speaking in tongues around 1952. Uncle Harry also had a hand in his relative taming.
I heard VPW wanted to take BG's class after hearing that BG threw a student out and down a flight of stairs who dared to show up late. They both were pretty rough and tumble guys. Not my types, but I respect the Word that they both did teach.
Hi Mike,
The focus of where you want your attention on the vicster's life seems to be the teenage years. For some reason. What is that reason? You yourself are not a teenager. Have you emotionally progressed beyond that stage? Or have you regressed to that stage through a mid-life crisis? Your logic seems to follow teen-age type reasoning. BG was as big a jerk therefore plagiarizing his class was OK. BG made errors in his class thus plagiarizing his class was OK. VP admitted he wasn't into originality thus his actions are OK.
No Mike. VP's actions were not OK. He sexually took advantage of underage girls who were not his wife. As a 60 plus year old man. He was a creeper. These are not the actions of an individual whose Bible classes are worth listening to. It is not OK. It is not OK to canonize this individual as a saint because you have an attachment to a class he taught.
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
skyrider
Thanks guys….. life is good, all is well. It’s good to see GSC continuing to sound the alarm as we move into the 2023 new year. Even though twi tries to guilt advanced class grads and corps to *
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waysider
Hiya, Mikey.
You know he wasn't REALLY a Dr., don't you?
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T-Bone
Fat chance of TWI’s sexual assaults coming to light by the media - but your post got me thinking about the multiple methods of suppression in TWI.
The abuse of power / sexual harassment have been a part of our culture for a long time. So I can understand the thinking of the victims in not coming forward in times past - being afraid of the backlash or the negative impact to their career, etc.
But besides that - wierwille had several other methods to suppress word getting out about his sexual assaults. Things like “Lockbox” , adulation for the man of god, and even subverting the conscience of victims by saying things like “anything done in the love of god is ok”.
Sorry - didn’t me to get off topic - but thought I should throw my 2 cents in.
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T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it a try and will employ a great technique I learned from the “master “ himself by plagiarizing a little bit from the gospel crucifixion account:
It was about the ninth session, and the whole mess was plodding along like it always did - and there was darkness over the whole class like it was in the beginning with audio and Beta tapes.
wierwille said to himself “ i am finished - ain’t no way I can pull this off again” ; then he cried in a loud voice “I thirst!” - and immediately one of his assistants refilled his cup with Drambuie.
looking down from the double-cross he liked to pull on his adoring fans he said “my peeps, behold thy teacher.” Then one of the ordained who stood guard, shook his head and said to himself “this truly is a waste of time.”
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JayDee
LOL‼️ Well done T-Bone.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, yes!! Wonderful!!
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So_crates
At lunch one day, in the BRC basement, Dr announced that as part of his preparation for teaching the new class he was going to “take” the class for the first time. At that time he had only seen the first half hour of the ‘67 film class, so in order to prepare for teaching the same material again, Dr set up a schedule to watch the entire thing. Every day he’d show up at lunch and tell us which session he was in as he progressed through the class. Some days he did one session or two, other days he did only a part.
When Dr completed Session Five he reported to us that he had Christ in him, “the hope of glory” and we all cheered. Word went around that some staffers were doing up some calligraphy on a PFAL diploma for Dr, so that he could become an official “PFAL Grad” like us. Everyone was quite excited to see Dr take the class this way. It was a wonderful touch to see this as we all worked hard to prepare for PFAL’77. I say “all” in the sense that even though not all was totally perfect, we never voiced it, and it WAS pretty darn good how we all got along, especially compared to ten years later. These were still the “good old days” in many ways.
Then one day Dr showed up at lunch with a glum look on his face.
I see the propaganda wing of The Way was still working full force.
Were we to believe someone who didn't have the patience or gumption to do his own research sat on his hams for three hours watching a snoozefest?
More like he had someone else watch it, then give him the Cliff's Note version complete with a highlight to tell all in attendance.
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chockfull
I don't know, the only thing preventing TWI's sexual assaults from coming to light by the media is that we don't have a celebrity like Leah Remini to do a documentary expose, absorb all the hate mail, and sit people down interview style to document all the personal impact.
Hey Leah, want a side project? LOL.
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Mike
Skyrider,
One of your bullet points may need a date change. HQ money funneling began in earnest in 1972.
I'd like to know more about your 1984 point on a public confrontation. I know nothing of that.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes Sky, I do would like to know about that public meeting. Imagine VPW telling them they are "off the word." I think that might have been a very interesting meeting!!
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skyrider
Hey Mike......I see you made your way back to GSC.
Before I answer your questions, I was wondering if you cared to comment on several of my posts in this thread. Noted: Mrs. Wierwille gives first-hand documentation of her husband's life and twi's history in her 1996 book, Born Again To Serve. Most specifically, the B.G. Leonard's foundational classes in Calgary, Alberta and that whole timeline.
It is clear that victor paul wierwille was ensconced in the denominational church mindset and had NO ORIGINALITY OR CONCEPTS percolating in his thinking......SO HE ATTENDED OTHER MEN'S SEMINARS AND RETREATS. And, when he found his way to B.G. Leonard's foundational class.........then, he set the wheels in motion for an "independent, class-based ministry" outside of the denomination structure. The whole timeline connects the dots and how wierwille "put it all together."
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Mike
Hi skyrider,
I'm swamped with work right now, my business being seasonal sensitive. Going into a detailed and organized answer to your questions may be possible when the rainy weather hits next month.
I do see recurring themes, though, in both your questions and in many other comments and threads here in recent months, and by other posters as well. However they seem to all be muted discussions, lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings. Maybe I can spice up the conversations a little with some oft overlooked items.
One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW.
BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!
BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift. How many other errors and wrong slants did his class have?
And where did BG get his material from?
And what is this great obsession with originality? Doesn’t anyone have any deep thoughts on that? Has anyone EVER entertained the thought (and collected data) that most of what we mean by “originality” is actually multiple-hidden sources?
And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it, even though I reposted it a few months ago here.
As for Mrs Wierwille, who ever said her words were canonical? And who ever said VPW’s words were canonical? Not me. I say he was often wrong. It’s only what he put in book and magazine form that I see as special. I never held that all his memories would be accurate.
Those are some unorganized responses, lacking the full detail I’d like to hammer on.
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Mike
HOWDY! I miss you folks. How's it going?
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JayDee
That’s pretty insulting doncha think Mike?
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T-Bone
In my opinion, if one has a tendency to overlook wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and megalomaniac style of leadership it might suggest the intellectual inbreeding between PFAL and an awestruck student…as science notes, inbreeding can produce an unusually high frequency of weaknesses, genetic disorders and autoimmune issues…since we’re speaking metaphorically - - ain’t no tellin’ what can happen.
I’m doing ok, Mike ...thanks for asking...glad to hear you’re busy with work and wish you the best this holiday season and for the new year!
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skyrider
Mike.....as you noted, "unorganized responses"......it looks like you're all over the map on this reply.
So, to even respond to you......I'll have to address its components.
So, on point 5............is that how you think God via holy spirit operated in wierwille?
Just so I got this straight.........you believe that wierwille was often wrong when he spoke or taught, but when he put things in writing that was special?
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chockfull
Wow - amazing insight here T-Bone.
This Boob M - the same dude who is kind of the leader of the Revival and Restoration Group - that has concluded in concurring with us here on the `Spot that God did not divide Christians into denominations, that is man's shortcomings. This guy was the one who saw through the Snake Oil Salesman as early as `77 - and honestly, like anyone with a college education and who has had a background in mathematics, "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" sounds exactly like a Rube Goldberg description of the mathematics principle of the transitive property of equality.
In fact, it sounds like "the Teacher" was someone with a Doctoral degree who couldn't pass a general studies mathematics college class required for graduation. Perhaps his undergrad, masters, and cereal boxtop doctorate can't stand up to the test of "Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?"
Thanks for the insight.
For my life, it expands upon the "hindsight is 20/20 concept". And makes me thankful for telling the truth here.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Jay, I think there is a lot of intellectual information on this Web Site. For example, Sky and DWBH, both know a lot about the inner workings of TWI, because they witnessed it first-hand. I think their posts are well-written, and very thoughtful. But I guess what I consider "intellectual information," is different from others POV.
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WordWolf
Let's see...
"lacking depth as do all intellectual inbreedings." We still represent more points of view than just the "praise vpw" "discussions" you prefer.
"One is the supremacy of BG Leonard’s class. I heard that on production/market side it sucked, and that BG was an even bigger jerk than VPW. " You heard incorrectly. We heard from people who actually attended it. It was live so it was better "in production" than audio or video of vpw with errors left in. It was meant specifically for ministers and pastors, not the general public. It was meant so ministers and pastors could go bless their congregations. It was not meant as a source of revenue. BGL was a genuinely nice guy, and even vpw said so. He could have thrown vpw out when vpw was told the class was closed, then showed up to insist on being included in a class already in progress. He chose not to. He could have sued vpw when he found out about the plagiarism. but was so serious about Christian not suing Christian (based on the Bible) that he refused to, instead adding notices to his books on how plagiarism was wrong. And all the people who actually worked with him or took his classes said he was nice.
"BG could have never marketed his product to the hippies and the baby boomers…. Just never!" It was never about marketing. He aimed his classes at pastors and ministers, to equip them to be better pastors and ministers. He succeeded there.
"BG was in great error in that he taught SIT was a gift." He was not in GREAT error because his vocabulary referred to SIT as a gift, but his explanations and instructions all reflected a position that it was not a separate gift (all Christians were automatically entitled to it, etc.) Now, if twi and BGL are correct, this is actually a minor point because the practice taught doesn't reflect the poor vocabulary choice. If twi and BGL are both incorrect because the modern thing is not the SIT used at Pentecost, then he's less bad off than vpw, since BGL spent more time on healing, word of knowledge, etc, and vpw built up 2 whole classes on TIP.
"And did you already forget about Oldiesman’s post on VPW admitting in writing that he was not into originality? I see zero references to it, even though I reposted it a few months ago here." Buried about 100 pages into one single book advertising twi which was never a collateral reading (The Way-Living in Love) was vpw's off-hand comment that "Nothing I do is original" and claimed his originality was in putting the class together. Anyone except someone desperate to exonerate vpw of rampant plagiarism would say that was nothing like an admission. He certainly never said that Leonard's class was the exact same class vpw taught, in every particular, a few months after taking BGL's class. THAT would have been an admission of something. It's a non-issue, because it wasn't an admission of anything, and WAS an evasion about the class already having been put together-which it had been. We've mentioned this lots of times, but someone around here forgets lots of stuff and doesn't admit it.
==========================================
For those who arrived late to the party, this was Mike. Some of Mike's posts have contained the following:
that vpw had an "OVERABUNDANCE of brains and brawn" and was "OVERgifted." When Jesus returns, he will have a copy of the Orange Book in his hands and be teaching you from it. He wasn't joking either. "Quite serious. I've seen him this way several times." He thinks the Bible is inaccurate, but has called the written pfal materials and twi materials "GOD-BREATHED."
I swear, I'm neither making this up, nor exaggerating, nor changing his meaning by removing relevant context.
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Mike
Hi johniam.
Are you still cleaning windows?
I am; and still loving it.
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Mike
Yes, and I apologize fr that. I thought I had softened that line down, but my edit seems to have gotten lost.
What do you think of the idea, though?
Suppose I had been more diplomatic with my text. how would you have reacted to the idea it was conveying?
I try to have fellowship with most all types of grads, even the ones with who I strongly disagree. I see intellectual inbreeding and insularity going on all the time with all humans dealing with religion and politics. I would like to see lots of people regularly crossing sharp boundaries for detailed civil discussion and new ideas. Do you? I regularly try to have friendly discussions with TWI members. After decades of turning me down, recent years it has changed for the better. I wonder how many ardent Trump supporters can enjoy beers with members of the far Left? I learn from both sides.
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW, I think when you were born, God gave you an abundance of brains, and great writing skills! Excellent post; thank you for posting!!
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Mike
Not "put things in writing,"
but "put things in book and magazine form."
There were plenty of things that he put in writing that were not-God breathed. He even wrote that in PFAL page 83.
The story of the Bible is one of God working with any sinner to the extent the sinner believes.
Yes, he was a jerk at times. (How stinky is YOUR old man nature?) I've posted several stories here from one of his High School classmates with whom I worked with daily at HQ for 2 years. She told me how he'd get into fights and crash parties and was a show off. He was also such a religious terror, later on as a pastor, that some people in his congregation put their Pagan Christmas Trees on wheels to get them quickly hidden should the pastor be in the neighborhood. She ALSO told me that he mellowed significantly when he started speaking in tongues around 1952. Uncle Harry also had a hand in his relative taming.
I heard VPW wanted to take BG's class after hearing that BG threw a student out and down a flight of stairs who dared to show up late. They both were pretty rough and tumble guys. Not my types, but I respect the Word that they both did teach.
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T-Bone
That seems a rather vacuous statement to make about the Bible. The above statement makes it sound like God is ok with a sinful lifestyle as long as you believe God for great things to come to pass and are doing "great exploits" for him.
Please provide scriptural references for that assertion.
There are many passages that indicate God puts a high priority on a contrite heart - - I think there's enough evidence in the Bible to indicate that God might be more concerned about a change of heart in the sinner rather than the status of one's belief system, what one believes, how big is their believing, all the things they believed God for.etc. - for example:
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise. Psalm 51:17 NIV
Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord? Who may stand in his holy place? The one who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not trust in an idol or swear by a false god. Psalm 24:3,4 NIV
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. I John 1:8-10 NIV
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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chockfull
Hi Mike,
The focus of where you want your attention on the vicster's life seems to be the teenage years. For some reason. What is that reason? You yourself are not a teenager. Have you emotionally progressed beyond that stage? Or have you regressed to that stage through a mid-life crisis? Your logic seems to follow teen-age type reasoning. BG was as big a jerk therefore plagiarizing his class was OK. BG made errors in his class thus plagiarizing his class was OK. VP admitted he wasn't into originality thus his actions are OK.
No Mike. VP's actions were not OK. He sexually took advantage of underage girls who were not his wife. As a 60 plus year old man. He was a creeper. These are not the actions of an individual whose Bible classes are worth listening to. It is not OK. It is not OK to canonize this individual as a saint because you have an attachment to a class he taught.
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