Didn't you read what I wrote over there? I said that I'm very tempted to work on that interesting question. Humor me and maybe I'll fall for that temptation.
Your tempted to work on that question?
In other words, you have no argument proving your claim that PLAF is God breathe.
What would Euclid say? You just claimed you knew the circumference of a circle without consulting the formula.
I thought I did address that. I'll do it again, with more detail so you can see what I meant.
I was a twig leader in 1980, years before the JS Paper came out. In that year the need for some more clear doctrine on sex moved from the rumor stage to the actual stage when a carload of grads from the State of Maine arrived. There were flimsy rumor doctrines floating around the ministry for years that seemed to justify sex outside marriage. In Maine they got very active at it.
I mentioned earlier that my experience (and that of two other close friend HQ staff members) with these loose sex activities was totally zero. I only heard the flimsy doctrines or justifications there once, and it was very disappointing in who I had to hear it from (another friend). But the rumors on the field were stronger.
What we did in my twig in 1980 was work the words in a Young’s Concordance, and then we compiled a list of the the flimsy doctrines or justifications that we had heard, and then weworked verses that seemed to unravel them.
In July of 1987 I had resisted hearing the many rumors of the ministry falling apart and the POP. There were many reasons for this, San Diego’s great distance from the ROA’86 was one of them. Hardly anyone went. I slugged off the rumors due to non-authoritative sources. But that July I heard that Ralph D was coming out for a visit. I went to hear him speak and was stunned at all the bad news about HQ and Geer, and at how angry every one was.
I knew absolutely nothing prior to that meeting, at that late date.
On a table was a stack of copies of the JS Paper. I had been told that anyone who read it would become a Trinity believer. I was not afraid and picked it up. I was stunned even more at what I saw.
It was almost identical to what we had found 7 years earlier. Even the the flimsy doctrines or justifications we had listed were there in the Appendixes. JS did a much more thorough job, and his Appendixes outnumbered ours by a few.
I felt nauseous the next day. It shook my confidence in PFAL to the core for about 11 years. I confronted leaders and friends about it. I lost many friends and would have been blacklisted but there was too much turmoil for leadership to bother with me.
In the next 11 years I experimented with all sorts of fundamental belief systems. It was quite an adventure. When I finally came back to PFAL in 1998 it was deliberate and it was after considering a wealth of information. I shopped around and compared.
Actually, thanks for the story. It really helps me understand where you are coming from. It seems like you went through a disillusionment with everything from learning the same non-whitewashed history we all have learned here. At least until about 2000. I actually can see where in a vacuum in the absence of anything better to take its place where fundamentals from PFAL would be what you would cling to.
My story is different. I didn't learn the non-whitewashed story anywhere near the timeframe you did. Much later. Also, I had previous mainstream Christian experience prior to the Way, where most did not. It was easier for me to see the VPW experiment as detracting from the overall body of Christ rather than adding to it when you consider it from a broader perspective and timeframe. The entire "household" vs. "body" teaching propounded first by VPW and enacted by the Way is hugely divisive, and I believe to be anti Christ. (Not seed crap like they taught - just stupid and self-serving). Scripture is great for a source of inspiration and wisdom. But fundamentalism is misguided. Do I need to be a scribe? No. Do I want to be a Pharisee? No. All I need to answer those questions is to read the gospels. And look at the Way, and all its splinters. That is what Paul describes as faith being shipwrecked.
On 1/1/2018 at 12:48 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:
Chock, excellent post!! In my opinion, the heart of Christianity, teaches people how to "interact in a virtuous way." I hated all the yelling, and screaming in TWI. I never understood why there was so much of that nonsense. I thought the purpose of The Word was to make us better people; not to teach us to snap at each other. Chock, I think if TWI had taught people to interact with love, and patience, perhaps many of us would still be involved.
Oh but don't you know that yelling at someone shows how much you love them? After all, spiritual anger is reserved for those in leadership who only want to help those below them to see how Off the Word they are. Therefore, we should be thankful to be yelled at because we don't know for ourselves if we're walking with God or not. Thank you thank you for yelling at me.
Oh but don't you know that yelling at someone shows how much you love them? After all, spiritual anger is reserved for those in leadership who only want to help those below them to see how Off the Word they are. Therefore, we should be thankful to be yelled at because we don't know for ourselves if we're walking with God or not. Thank you thank you for yelling at me.
(sarcasm)
2 minutes ago, outandabout said:
Oh but don't you know that yelling at someone shows how much you love them? After all, spiritual anger is reserved for those in leadership who only want to help those below them to see how Off the Word they are. Therefore, we should be thankful to be yelled at because we don't know for ourselves if we're walking with God or not. Thank you thank you for yelling at me.
(sarcasm)
Outi, that's one way of looking at all the screaming. But seriously, my mother used to scream a lot when I was a little kid. IMO, all the screaming done in TWI, was evidence that many of the people screaming could, or would not control themselves. In my view, the screaming was unnecessary. If you want my attention, talk to me in a soft voice; after all I am an adult. A gentle spirit speaks softly; it doesn't need to screech.
Wonder how VPW and LCM would have reacted if I had screamed back at them or CG. Probably they would have murdered me and my body would be in a ditch. Steve Bannon would have been an excellent recruit for TWI
I think a lot of the crazy excessive screaming and confrontation came into TWI the early 80s as part of Athletes of the Spirit. At that time many analogies were being made between spiritual discipline and the discipline we see developed in the military and in sports.
In boot camps and in locker room pep talks a lot of screaming and ego humiliation are used.
Like genuine tough love performances needing a prior mastery of tender love the same hold for this kind of tough discipline. A little seems like it can be useful at times, but things back in the 80s got totally out of balance here.
This is one of the more “on topic” posts of mine here. Part of the book on VPW should include this item for balance.
I finally found one of my “re-post pastes” of Research Geek’s post on Pikes Peak and VBPW’s degree. The thread he posted this on is now lost due to bandwidth issues over 10 years ago. But I can assure you my re-posts were totally accurate. If they weren’t, back then they would have been torn apart immediately on my posting. They weren’t.
For me, I’ve said theology degrees awarded to anyone mean almost nothing to me. I have great respect for the hard core degrees like Math and Physics, but it drops for humanities degrees. I just don’t care much, and never did.
For me, VPW did earn that degree as much as any other minister or priest, and I happily called him Doctor Wierwille all the time, BASED ON his performance for me and my needs. I need not check out his degree any more than that for my own interests.
But Research Geek did investigated that degree by going to Pikes Peak and checking out the record. He was one of the very few posters back then that seem to have done this kind of thing, not shoot from the hip, but investigate objectively. Others here will dig for dirt, but miss the gold. He was very respected by all here (me included) as fair minded and smart.
Originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002 with my bold fonts:
***
“I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
“The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
“So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.”
***
VPW not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate.
I think a lot of the crazy excessive screaming and confrontation came into TWI the early 80s as part of Athletes of the Spirit. At that time many analogies were being made between spiritual discipline and the discipline we see developed in the military and in sports.
In boot camps and in locker room pep talks a lot of screaming and ego humiliation are used.
Like genuine tough love performances needing a prior mastery of tender love the same hold for this kind of tough discipline. A little seems like it can be useful at times, but things back in the 80s got totally out of balance here.
Mike, you weren't way corpse, right?
The screaming started in the WC by dictor behaving as an entitled a$$hole believing he had every right to abuse people especially in the WC. Martindale kicked it up several notches BEFORE his dancing career (AoS) but really never moderated his behavior. Of course, Martindale was eventually humbled and lost his platform.
However, as a WC outsider, the time correlation you suggested tracks with WC getting acclimated to a culture of being demanded of and then demanding of everyone else.
That is a(n im)practical outgrowth of dictor's version of "god-breathed" doctrine.
I think a lot of the crazy excessive screaming and confrontation came into TWI the early 80s as part of Athletes of the Spirit. At that time many analogies were being made between spiritual discipline and the discipline we see developed in the military and in sports.
In boot camps and in locker room pep talks a lot of screaming and ego humiliation are used.
Unfortunately, we in twigs were not in a boot camp or a locker room.
The Way was supposed to be a church, not a military or football team.
I worked close to many, and liked many, but was often aghast at some of the mass graduation products. I once got a good round of laughter from a HQ co-worker when I suggested the main goal of the Corps Program was to remove some idiots from the field so they can do less damage.
I was a twig leader twice 1974-76 and 1978-82.
Worked at HQ in Tape Duplicating 1976-78
Went out WOW 1982 to the foreign heathens on Rhode Island.
If someone yelled at me because they didn't like what I did, I probably tell them it was their believing.
I had one time my twig leader tried to give me a face melting. He yelled at me for about ten minutes, while I sat calmly shutting him off. His yelling was like a loud tv making background noise to me. After ten minutes, he took a breath and looked at me.
Calmly, I asked, "Finished?" He nodded. Still calm: "What do you think you proved?"
His face turned the color of a boiled ham: "Is anybody in there?...
His yelling was like a loud tv making background noise to me. After ten minutes, he took a breath and looked at me.
Sounds like he was imitating Craig. A lot of new Corps would do that, even to the point of sporting a mustache similar to his at one time. I looked forward to them maturing, but it didn't happen.
Originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002 with my bold fonts:
***My comments in red
“I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton
I thought you said you need to make facts straight. Barely out of the gate and already your spreading propaganda. Saint Vic didn't go to Princeton University. Which is what the average Joe would think reading "Princeton." This casts a shadow on your whole ditty, after all, if you leave out facts about one thing, what else aren't you telling us?
which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class.
A number? One? That's a number. Three? That's a number. More details left out. Why no estimate?
My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
“The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method.
Experimental? How? You don't think leaving these details out is getting a little convenient?
Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree.
Saint Vic put in the time. How much time? The same amount of time it takes to get a PhD in the real world? Another detail left out.
But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
“So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title.
Yah, and I believe I'm a brain surgeon, what would happen if I showed up at an operating room without the proper degree?
Perhaps his decision to go was unwise.
Of course it was. Like all things he did, he wanted the shortcut
I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.”
I'm not sure which Princeton RG was referring to. Whenever I heard in the old days that VPW went to Princeton, I always flashed on “Princeton Theological Seminary” and not on PrincetonUniversity.
Having zero interest in the subject, the only reason my memory flashed on that name was because it was FAMOUS, and maybe even more famous than PrincetonUniversity, in some eyes.
A quick check at Wikipedia just now confirms my suspicion: the place is NOT TOO SHABBY!
I'm not sure which Princeton RG was referring to. Whenever I heard in the old days that VPW went to Princeton, I always flashed on “Princeton Theological Seminary” and not on PrincetonUniversity.
Having zero interest in the subject, the only reason my memory flashed on that name was because it was FAMOUS, and maybe even more famous than PrincetonUniversity, in some eyes.
A quick check at Wikipedia just now confirms my suspicion: the place is NOT TOO SHABBY!
Yah and interestingly enough it has a PhD program, which oddly enough Saint Vic didn't continue on through.
He prefered a Parkers Brothers degree through a mail in school
If you bothered to read my post, you'd see I said the average Joe upon hearing Princeton would think Princeton University
I'm not sure which Princeton RG was referring to. Whenever I heard in the old days that VPW went to Princeton, I always flashed on “Princeton Theological Seminary” and not on PrincetonUniversity.
As you're saying that as far back as the early 1970's you were already aware these were two distinctly independent institutions? Sorry, dude...not buying it.
Anyone who knows Research Geek will agree that he did not purposely skew his report by saying there were "a number" of students who graduated with him. He was NOT trying to hide a small number by that comment. If it were three he would have said it was a very small number.
I believe RG meant there was a "normal" number for a small school, like a room full or half full.
Anyone who knows Research Geek will agree that he did not purposely skew his report by saying there were "a number" of students who graduated with him. He was NOT trying to hide a small number by that comment. If it were three he would have said it was a very small number.
I believe RG meant there was a "normal" number for a small school, like a room full or half full.
As you're saying that as far back as the early 1970's you were already aware these were two distinctly independent institutions? Sorry, dude...not buying it.
It was OFTEN in the news, and that's why I had heard of it. Not selling it.
Anyone who knows Research Geek will agree that he did not purposely skew his report by saying there were "a number" of students who graduated with him.
On the contrary, I think he was trying to skew his post. It's obvious through the use of "Princeton" and the overall lack of detail.
It would have been just as easy to write a roomful of people as it was to type a number of people.
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Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
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So_crates
Your tempted to work on that question?
In other words, you have no argument proving your claim that PLAF is God breathe.
What would Euclid say? You just claimed you knew the circumference of a circle without consulting the formula.
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chockfull
Actually, thanks for the story. It really helps me understand where you are coming from. It seems like you went through a disillusionment with everything from learning the same non-whitewashed history we all have learned here. At least until about 2000. I actually can see where in a vacuum in the absence of anything better to take its place where fundamentals from PFAL would be what you would cling to.
My story is different. I didn't learn the non-whitewashed story anywhere near the timeframe you did. Much later. Also, I had previous mainstream Christian experience prior to the Way, where most did not. It was easier for me to see the VPW experiment as detracting from the overall body of Christ rather than adding to it when you consider it from a broader perspective and timeframe. The entire "household" vs. "body" teaching propounded first by VPW and enacted by the Way is hugely divisive, and I believe to be anti Christ. (Not seed crap like they taught - just stupid and self-serving). Scripture is great for a source of inspiration and wisdom. But fundamentalism is misguided. Do I need to be a scribe? No. Do I want to be a Pharisee? No. All I need to answer those questions is to read the gospels. And look at the Way, and all its splinters. That is what Paul describes as faith being shipwrecked.
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Bolshevik
If there were a book on VPW would it really be that compelling?
He got drunk a lot and lied to a bunch of kids. (or call it plagiarism)
I think that story his been written a thousand times before.
The book won't be written due to a lack of uniqueness.
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outandabout
Oh but don't you know that yelling at someone shows how much you love them? After all, spiritual anger is reserved for those in leadership who only want to help those below them to see how Off the Word they are. Therefore, we should be thankful to be yelled at because we don't know for ourselves if we're walking with God or not. Thank you thank you for yelling at me.
(sarcasm)
Edited by outandaboutedit
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Grace Valerie Claire
Outi, that's one way of looking at all the screaming. But seriously, my mother used to scream a lot when I was a little kid. IMO, all the screaming done in TWI, was evidence that many of the people screaming could, or would not control themselves. In my view, the screaming was unnecessary. If you want my attention, talk to me in a soft voice; after all I am an adult. A gentle spirit speaks softly; it doesn't need to screech.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Wonder how VPW and LCM would have reacted if I had screamed back at them or CG. Probably they would have murdered me and my body would be in a ditch. Steve Bannon would have been an excellent recruit for TWI
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Mike
I think a lot of the crazy excessive screaming and confrontation came into TWI the early 80s as part of Athletes of the Spirit. At that time many analogies were being made between spiritual discipline and the discipline we see developed in the military and in sports.
In boot camps and in locker room pep talks a lot of screaming and ego humiliation are used.
Like genuine tough love performances needing a prior mastery of tender love the same hold for this kind of tough discipline. A little seems like it can be useful at times, but things back in the 80s got totally out of balance here.
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Mike
This is one of the more “on topic” posts of mine here. Part of the book on VPW should include this item for balance.
I finally found one of my “re-post pastes” of Research Geek’s post onPikes Peak and VBPW’s degree. The thread he posted this on is now lost due to bandwidth issues over 10 years ago. But I can assure you my re-posts were totally accurate. If they weren’t, back then they would have been torn apart immediately on my posting. They weren’t.
For me, I’ve said theology degrees awarded to anyone mean almost nothing to me. I have great respect for the hard core degrees like Math and Physics, but it drops for humanities degrees. I just don’t care much, and never did.
For me, VPW did earn that degree as much as any other minister or priest, and I happily called him Doctor Wierwille all the time, BASED ON his performance for me and my needs. I need not check out his degree any more than that for my own interests.
But Research Geek did investigated that degree by going toPikes Peak and checking out the record. He was one of the very few posters back then that seem to have done this kind of thing, not shoot from the hip, but investigate objectively. Others here will dig for dirt, but miss the gold. He was very respected by all here (me included) as fair minded and smart.
Originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002 with my bold fonts:
***
“I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters atPrinceton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado
“The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
“So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.”
***
VPW not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate.
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Rocky
Mike, you weren't way corpse, right?
The screaming started in the WC by dictor behaving as an entitled a$$hole believing he had every right to abuse people especially in the WC. Martindale kicked it up several notches BEFORE his dancing career (AoS) but really never moderated his behavior. Of course, Martindale was eventually humbled and lost his platform.
However, as a WC outsider, the time correlation you suggested tracks with WC getting acclimated to a culture of being demanded of and then demanding of everyone else.
That is a(n im)practical outgrowth of dictor's version of "god-breathed" doctrine.
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So_crates
Unfortunately, we in twigs were not in a boot camp or a locker room.
The Way was supposed to be a church, not a military or football team.
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Mike
Correct. Somehow I avoided the Corps. SO glad!
I worked close to many, and liked many, but was often aghast at some of the mass graduation products. I once got a good round of laughter from a HQ co-worker when I suggested the main goal of the Corps Program was to remove some idiots from the field so they can do less damage.
I was a twig leader twice 1974-76 and 1978-82.
Worked at HQ in Tape Duplicating 1976-78
Went out WOW 1982 to the foreign heathens on Rhode Island.
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Mike
I agree. It went too far.
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So_crates
If someone yelled at me because they didn't like what I did, I probably tell them it was their believing.
I had one time my twig leader tried to give me a face melting. He yelled at me for about ten minutes, while I sat calmly shutting him off. His yelling was like a loud tv making background noise to me. After ten minutes, he took a breath and looked at me.
Calmly, I asked, "Finished?" He nodded. Still calm: "What do you think you proved?"
His face turned the color of a boiled ham: "Is anybody in there?...
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Mike
Sounds like he was imitating Craig. A lot of new Corps would do that, even to the point of sporting a mustache similar to his at one time. I looked forward to them maturing, but it didn't happen.
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waysider
This is incorrect. Wierwille got his masters from Princeton Theological Seminary, which is not connected to the more well known Princeton University.
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So_crates
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Mike
So_crates,
I'm not sure which Princeton RG was referring to. Whenever I heard in the old days that VPW went to Princeton, I always flashed on “Princeton Theological Seminary” and not onPrinceton University
Having zero interest in the subject, the only reason my memory flashed on that name was because it was FAMOUS, and maybe even more famous thanPrinceton University
A quick check at Wikipedia just now confirms my suspicion: the place is NOT TOO SHABBY!
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So_crates
Yah and interestingly enough it has a PhD program, which oddly enough Saint Vic didn't continue on through.
He prefered a Parkers Brothers degree through a mail in school
If you bothered to read my post, you'd see I said the average Joe upon hearing Princeton would think Princeton University
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waysider
As you're saying that as far back as the early 1970's you were already aware these were two distinctly independent institutions? Sorry, dude...not buying it.
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Mike
Anyone who knows Research Geek will agree that he did not purposely skew his report by saying there were "a number" of students who graduated with him. He was NOT trying to hide a small number by that comment. If it were three he would have said it was a very small number.
I believe RG meant there was a "normal" number for a small school, like a room full or half full.
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waysider
Not relevant.
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Mike
It was OFTEN in the news, and that's why I had heard of it. Not selling it.
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Mike
Relevant to So_crates post.
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So_crates
On the contrary, I think he was trying to skew his post. It's obvious through the use of "Princeton" and the overall lack of detail.
It would have been just as easy to write a roomful of people as it was to type a number of people.
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