I knew him personally. I know what the scriptures say about OUR old man nature. I know all sin stinks. I do NOT buy the model him being pure evil being sold here. I saw him do good. The pure evil model does not fly with reality. Get a rounded education and you may think differently. If you spent a year with some pfoPFAL people you would be able to see more.
Yeah - I don't buy the summation that the model being sold here is pure evil.
It is just with all the whitewashing going on, people deserve to know the truth including the other side of the story covered up by whitewash. Like how Scho3nheit was fired by VPW for doing a simple word study paper on the word "adultery". I mean you don't really need to even try to illustrate that side of things.
Your challenge to "spend a year with some pfoPFAL [sic] people" sounds remarkably like VPW's challenge to spend 3 months just reading the collaterals. What makes you think I don't currently live with individuals who are graduates of PFAL many times over?
From the "Me Too" movement we are hearing that young women are assaulted in nearly every human organization on the planet. I started seeing this with High School football players having their way with the cheer leaders. We will soon see if the "Me Too" movement has any ability to make changes. I fear this problem is far too entrenched in our DNA (of both sexes even) and that it will not go away fast or easily.
You speak of well-rounded education (in some of your comments).
The problem to which you referred is a cultural problem. Widespread behaviors are based on societal mores (unwritten rules).
A person with a well-rounded education might be able to articulate that changing cultures and mores is never done quickly or easily. It's not a matter of fear... even though you probably used that expression as an idiom (or as bait).
Hey Mikey Mike - he who professes most ultimate understanding of PFAL.
Just out of curiousity, how many PFAL classes did you coordinate / run? Assist ? Class crew? Refreshments? Undershepherding? How many times audio? Video? Live?
I'm trying to get an understanding of what level of comprehension we are talking about here.
Yes it did. The counterfeit will look to the uneducated observer as promising good. Delivering good is a whole other story.
We had good delivered to us, and many of us still enjoy that good PFAL brought. The bad was not in the PFAL writings, but in the people, the practices that evolved, the administrators, and even in VPW himself. Those kinds of things obscured the good for some of us. By coming back to written PFAL you can see that it is good.
How quaint.
Make an argument, not just a claim.
"We had good delivered to us..." Make an argument to back up that claim or just stop toying with people here.
In the mid-1990s, I went through two years of high-conflict divorce litigation.
During that time, I met a former politician who was working on developing a conflict resolution model/class based on the martial art known as Aikido.
The one thing from his class that has stuck with me is to beware of getting hooked on bait that someone may dangle in front of you to foster (or escalate) rather than resolve conflict.
At GSC, especially lately, Mike has played the role of offering bait. While he says he's friendly opposition, does he give any genuine consideration to sound, valid arguments that have been made about Wierwille and PFLAP or does he just dismiss them out of hand by falsely claiming that people who disagree with him about Dictor refuse to consider his (Mike's) reality because we hold a "pure evil model" mindset about Dictor, PFLAP and twi?
After (many people, including me) calling Mike out repeatedly (constraining him), it has become painfully obvious his discourse here is disingenuous.
If Mike does not begin to engage constructively (acknowledge and consider arguments he has heretofore dismissed), I recommend people stop taking his bait.
"... verbal attacks contain bait. Just like the fisherman, the attacker presents you with bait in the hope that you will swallow it and be hooked. Bait is often unsaid, or pre-supposed. What this means is that the attacker need not attack you directly, but need only imply certain things, without really saying anything."
You completely missed my point.. I'm not thinking theological charges at all.
Try picturing it again:
TWI comes to judge with complaint that someone is stealing their material. Then judge sees evidence that TWI stole the same material from someone else. HILARIOUS!
Well, there you have it. Mike admits the material was stolen.
"... verbal attacks contain bait. Just like the fisherman, the attacker presents you with bait in the hope that you will swallow it and be hooked. Bait is often unsaid, or pre-supposed. What this means is that the attacker need not attack you directly, but need only imply certain things, without really saying anything."
That looks like an interesting site, Rocky.
Mike provides a huge amount of amusement. He's clearly passionate about what he thinks and believes. But as we have been taught, "sincerity is no guarantee for truth." I wish he spent as much time on genuine Bible research and study.
You speak of well-rounded education (in some of your comments).
The problem to which you referred is a cultural problem. Widespread behaviors are based on societal mores (unwritten rules).
A person with a well-rounded education might be able to articulate that changing cultures and mores is never done quickly or easily. It's not a matter of fear... even though you probably used that expression as an idiom (or as bait).
And a shortage of role models?
Wasn't the attraction to VPW supposed to fill a void?
I do NOT buy the model him being pure evil being sold here. .. The pure evil model does not fly with reality.
I find it interesting that your flummoxed by the "pure evil" Saint Vic paradigm.
Refresh my memory:
How many victims did he threaten to claim they were devil possessed if they came forward with their story?
Did you forget about the guy that said a tracking program was better than what The Way offered? What happened to him? Saint Vic screamed he was devil possessed in front of the whole auditorium.
Seems Saint Vic had no problems branding others as "pure evil", but heaven forbid someone do that to him.
Seems Saint Vic had no problems branding others as "pure evil", but heaven forbid someone do that to him.
Ive learned it takes all kinds of double standards for cult leaders to function. Think Jesus called straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Followers seem to have to accept the same bs too. Mikes a prime example. Hes willing to admit vic stole his work from others but grants divine permission saying God told him to steal it.
My call that most posters here lately are fixated on a pure evil model of VPW is purely subjective.
I make that call, and I expect that less involved readers will see the exact same attitudes that I see. It might for you all to see yourselves this way, though. It might take some uncomfortable examination and some ego tarnishing.
This point Mike is making probably has some validity to it. Less involved readers tend to dismiss GSC out of hand. They see "the other side of the story" and it is too disgusting to process. So they rationalize and judge us here. In fact your typical Way follower if asked about GSC if they even have heard of it will label it something like a "vomit-fest". Many come here and confront us telling us to "get over it". Get over what? The continued lying regarding and coverup of the Way's history? I can't "get over" something they are actively continuing to do, including firing people, marking and avoiding people, slandering their name, and giving them the "bum's rush" off of Staff at HQ in New Knoxville. They build their top leadership from old friendship groups in swinger's clubs. They continue that to this very day, and use VPW's plagiarized works from a lack of scholastic effort combined with the "spiritual 40 club" connections putting him in contact with new material to plagiarize. I am just continuing to tell the truth about it. I personally have very little stake left in whatever people think about the Way.
However here at GSC, other case studies seem to point in a different direction. For example, a recently involved poster here, Grace Valerie Claire, seems to have been on a deep dive reading through a good portion of all the old threads over the last 6 months. For more deeply involved readers, GSC allows them to see "the other side of the story", the one that the Way International covers up because it causes them to lose what they love most - money, influence, power, followers. To her, GSC probably represents a freedom from the past of sorts, although I won't speak for her.
So Mike, as the minority here posting your opinion in support of VPW's life and ministry, yes you will be outnumbered. You are welcome to your viewpoint. Mine simply differs.
Ive learned it takes all kinds of double standards for cult leaders to function. Think Jesus called straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Followers seem to have to accept the same bs too. Mikes a prime example. Hes willing to admit vic stole his work from others but grants divine permission saying God told him to steal it.
And......even though wierwille stole the foundational class, its retention numbers and percentages were abysmal.
Mike lauds "all the good" that pfal brought..............yet
When I took pfal........we started with 12 students. After four sessions, there were 9 students.......and two weeks after the class, only 3 of us were left. These drop-off and drop-out ratios have been posted dozens of times in first-hand accounts on GSC. Why did SO MANY exit even before the 12th session of pfal?
Did they see red flags that alerted them to exit?
Was it the constraints and/or inflexibility of the class schedule?
They didn't like the presentation or class material?
No consideration for questions, thoughts or individuality?
Ive learned it takes all kinds of double standards for cult leaders to function. Think Jesus called straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Followers seem to have to accept the same bs too. Mikes a prime example. Hes willing to admit vic stole his work from others but grants divine permission saying God told him to steal it.
I'm wondering if maybe someone ought to steal Mike's copy of the orange book. What would he say if someone did that? That's it's okay, it all belongs to God? Or that someone took something that is his, Mike's?
If it's not okay to steal a physical object (a book) why is it okay to steal intangible stuff (intellectual property)?
If the orange book is the revealed word of God (as Mike claims) and it was okay to steal the revealed word of God from Stiles, Bullinger, and others - then it must be okay to steal Mike's copy of the orange book.
Mike says he got to know VPW at ROA 1972 where he seemed nice to people. Yeah Bud Morgan's documentary took that position. He later regretted that after PFAL 77.
It is just with all the whitewashing going on, people deserve to know the truth including the other side of the story covered up by whitewash. Like how Scho3nheit was fired by VPW for doing a simple word study paper on the word "adultery". I mean you don't really need to even try to illustrate that side of things.
Hey, I'm keenly interested in the facts revolving around the John.S. paper on adultery. In 1980, several years prior, my twig did an independent precursor of that paper. It was smaller, and not as professional, but was almost in complete agreement with his.
I was informed that VPW asked Ralph D and Vince F to research the word “adultery” in 1982, and that then they asked for John S’s help. Then, after VPW’s death and after the POP was read in 1986, it was Walter whofired John S.
That’s the best I know of this. Am I wrong? If so where?
Hey, I'm keenly interested in the facts revolving around the John.S. paper on adultery. In 1980, several years prior, my twig did an independent precursor of that paper. It was smaller, and not as professional, but was almost in complete agreement with his.
I was informed that VPW asked Ralph D and Vince F to research the word “adultery” in 1982, and that then they asked for John S’s help. Then, after VPW’s death and after the POP was read in 1986, it was Walter whofired John S.
That’s the best I know of this. Am I wrong? If so where?
Hi Mike,
You're right on these facts. As many know I was young then.
Those are the details for any to read. Apparently it was after VPW's death in 1986 that JS found out that VPW had sex with a young woman not his wife who had come to him. Another told him he would be killed if he tried to stop it. He was fired by Chris Geer.
There might be some more input on this topic by another poster who was actually physically present there.
However, it also seems you are singling out one aspect of my post to answer - and failed to address the rest of it. In a previous post you set forth an accusation that posters here present a pure evil viewpoint of VPW. I mentioned that we are just removing the whitewash that is present everywhere else.
Why didn't you address that point? Not part of your agenda?
Those are the details for any to read. Apparently it was after VPW's death in 1986 that JS found out that VPW had sex with a young woman not his wife who had come to him. Another told him he would be killed if he tried to stop it. He was fired by Chris Geer.
There might be some more input on this topic by another poster who was actually physically present there.
However, it also seems you are singling out one aspect of my post to answer - and failed to address the rest of it. In a previous post you set forth an accusation that posters here present a pure evil viewpoint of VPW. I mentioned that we are just removing the whitewash that is present everywhere else.
Why didn't you address that point? Not part of your agenda?
Thanks for the link. I went there and began reading. I found this excerpt near the beginning of the post troubling,
I began studying the the Word of God, and I got as far as the Mosaic Law which proscribes the death penalty for adultery. I believed that if God commanded the death penalty for adultery in the Old Testament, His will on the subject could not have changed with the change of administration. (emphasis mine)
I don't know if it was a typo or a gross misunderstanding or something in between but correct usage of the word "proscribes" would indicate that the Old Testament OUTLAWS the death penalty for adultery.
Those are the details for any to read. Apparently it was after VPW's death in 1986 that JS found out that VPW had sex with a young woman not his wife who had come to him. Another told him he would be killed if he tried to stop it. He was fired by Chris Geer.
There might be some more input on this topic by another poster who was actually physically present there.
However, it also seems you are singling out one aspect of my post to answer - and failed to address the rest of it. In a previous post you set forth an accusation that posters here present a pure evil viewpoint of VPW. I mentioned that we are just removing the whitewash that is present everywhere else.
Why didn't you address that point? Not part of your agenda?
I thought I did address that. I'll do it again, with more detail so you can see what I meant.
I was a twig leader in 1980, years before the JS Paper came out. In that year the need for some more clear doctrine on sex moved from the rumor stage to the actual stage when a carload of grads from the State of Maine arrived. There were flimsy rumor doctrines floating around the ministry for years that seemed to justify sex outside marriage. In Maine they got very active at it.
I mentioned earlier that my experience (and that of two other close friend HQ staff members) with these loose sex activities was totally zero. I only heard the flimsy doctrines or justifications there once, and it was very disappointing in who I had to hear it from (another friend). But the rumors on the field were stronger.
What we did in my twig in 1980 was work the words in a Young’s Concordance, and then we compiled a list of the the flimsy doctrines or justifications that we had heard, and then weworked verses that seemed to unravel them.
In July of 1987 I had resisted hearing the many rumors of the ministry falling apart and the POP. There were many reasons for this, San Diego’s great distance from the ROA’86 was one of them. Hardly anyone went. I slugged off the rumors due to non-authoritative sources. But that July I heard that Ralph D was coming out for a visit. I went to hear him speak and was stunned at all the bad news about HQ and Geer, and at how angry every one was.
I knew absolutely nothing prior to that meeting, at that late date.
On a table was a stack of copies of the JS Paper. I had been told that anyone who read it would become a Trinity believer. I was not afraid and picked it up. I was stunned even more at what I saw.
It was almost identical to what we had found 7 years earlier. Even the the flimsy doctrines or justifications we had listed were there in the Appendixes. JS did a much more thorough job, and his Appendixes outnumbered ours by a few.
I felt nauseous the next day. It shook my confidence in PFAL to the core for about 11 years. I confronted leaders and friends about it. I lost many friends and would have been blacklisted but there was too much turmoil for leadership to bother with me.
In the next 11 years I experimented with all sorts of fundamental belief systems. It was quite an adventure. When I finally came back to PFAL in 1998 it was deliberate and it was after considering a wealth of information. I shopped around and compared.
In the next 11 years I experimented with all sorts of fundamental belief systems. It was quite an adventure. When I finally came back to PFAL in 1998 it was deliberate and it was after considering a wealth of information. I shopped around and compared.
And despite all that shopping around and comparing, you find it hard to honestly answer one question. (See the thread: Is PLAF God-breathe?)
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
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Rocky
One might think that after all these years, YOU would get the point that essentially everyone here misses your point.
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chockfull
Yeah - I don't buy the summation that the model being sold here is pure evil.
It is just with all the whitewashing going on, people deserve to know the truth including the other side of the story covered up by whitewash. Like how Scho3nheit was fired by VPW for doing a simple word study paper on the word "adultery". I mean you don't really need to even try to illustrate that side of things.
Your challenge to "spend a year with some pfoPFAL [sic] people" sounds remarkably like VPW's challenge to spend 3 months just reading the collaterals. What makes you think I don't currently live with individuals who are graduates of PFAL many times over?
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Rocky
You speak of well-rounded education (in some of your comments).
Edited by RockyThe problem to which you referred is a cultural problem. Widespread behaviors are based on societal mores (unwritten rules).
A person with a well-rounded education might be able to articulate that changing cultures and mores is never done quickly or easily. It's not a matter of fear... even though you probably used that expression as an idiom (or as bait).
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chockfull
Hey Mikey Mike - he who professes most ultimate understanding of PFAL.
Just out of curiousity, how many PFAL classes did you coordinate / run? Assist ? Class crew? Refreshments? Undershepherding? How many times audio? Video? Live?
I'm trying to get an understanding of what level of comprehension we are talking about here.
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Rocky
How quaint.
Make an argument, not just a claim.
"We had good delivered to us..." Make an argument to back up that claim or just stop toying with people here.
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Rocky
In the mid-1990s, I went through two years of high-conflict divorce litigation.
During that time, I met a former politician who was working on developing a conflict resolution model/class based on the martial art known as Aikido.
The one thing from his class that has stuck with me is to beware of getting hooked on bait that someone may dangle in front of you to foster (or escalate) rather than resolve conflict.
At GSC, especially lately, Mike has played the role of offering bait. While he says he's friendly opposition, does he give any genuine consideration to sound, valid arguments that have been made about Wierwille and PFLAP or does he just dismiss them out of hand by falsely claiming that people who disagree with him about Dictor refuse to consider his (Mike's) reality because we hold a "pure evil model" mindset about Dictor, PFLAP and twi?
After (many people, including me) calling Mike out repeatedly (constraining him), it has become painfully obvious his discourse here is disingenuous.
If Mike does not begin to engage constructively (acknowledge and consider arguments he has heretofore dismissed), I recommend people stop taking his bait.
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Rocky
For example,
"... verbal attacks contain bait. Just like the fisherman, the attacker presents you with bait in the hope that you will swallow it and be hooked. Bait is often unsaid, or pre-supposed. What this means is that the attacker need not attack you directly, but need only imply certain things, without really saying anything."
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waysider
Well, there you have it. Mike admits the material was stolen.
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Twinky
That looks like an interesting site, Rocky.
Mike provides a huge amount of amusement. He's clearly passionate about what he thinks and believes. But as we have been taught, "sincerity is no guarantee for truth." I wish he spent as much time on genuine Bible research and study.
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Bolshevik
And a shortage of role models?
Wasn't the attraction to VPW supposed to fill a void?
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So_crates
I find it interesting that your flummoxed by the "pure evil" Saint Vic paradigm.
Refresh my memory:
How many victims did he threaten to claim they were devil possessed if they came forward with their story?
Did you forget about the guy that said a tracking program was better than what The Way offered? What happened to him? Saint Vic screamed he was devil possessed in front of the whole auditorium.
Seems Saint Vic had no problems branding others as "pure evil", but heaven forbid someone do that to him.
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OldSkool
Ive learned it takes all kinds of double standards for cult leaders to function. Think Jesus called straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Followers seem to have to accept the same bs too. Mikes a prime example. Hes willing to admit vic stole his work from others but grants divine permission saying God told him to steal it.
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chockfull
This point Mike is making probably has some validity to it. Less involved readers tend to dismiss GSC out of hand. They see "the other side of the story" and it is too disgusting to process. So they rationalize and judge us here. In fact your typical Way follower if asked about GSC if they even have heard of it will label it something like a "vomit-fest". Many come here and confront us telling us to "get over it". Get over what? The continued lying regarding and coverup of the Way's history? I can't "get over" something they are actively continuing to do, including firing people, marking and avoiding people, slandering their name, and giving them the "bum's rush" off of Staff at HQ in New Knoxville. They build their top leadership from old friendship groups in swinger's clubs. They continue that to this very day, and use VPW's plagiarized works from a lack of scholastic effort combined with the "spiritual 40 club" connections putting him in contact with new material to plagiarize. I am just continuing to tell the truth about it. I personally have very little stake left in whatever people think about the Way.
However here at GSC, other case studies seem to point in a different direction. For example, a recently involved poster here, Grace Valerie Claire, seems to have been on a deep dive reading through a good portion of all the old threads over the last 6 months. For more deeply involved readers, GSC allows them to see "the other side of the story", the one that the Way International covers up because it causes them to lose what they love most - money, influence, power, followers. To her, GSC probably represents a freedom from the past of sorts, although I won't speak for her.
So Mike, as the minority here posting your opinion in support of VPW's life and ministry, yes you will be outnumbered. You are welcome to your viewpoint. Mine simply differs.
God bless.
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skyrider
And......even though wierwille stole the foundational class, its retention numbers and percentages were abysmal.
Mike lauds "all the good" that pfal brought..............yet
When I took pfal........we started with 12 students. After four sessions, there were 9 students.......and two weeks after the class, only 3 of us were left. These drop-off and drop-out ratios have been posted dozens of times in first-hand accounts on GSC. Why did SO MANY exit even before the 12th session of pfal?
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Twinky
I'm wondering if maybe someone ought to steal Mike's copy of the orange book. What would he say if someone did that? That's it's okay, it all belongs to God? Or that someone took something that is his, Mike's?
If it's not okay to steal a physical object (a book) why is it okay to steal intangible stuff (intellectual property)?
If the orange book is the revealed word of God (as Mike claims) and it was okay to steal the revealed word of God from Stiles, Bullinger, and others - then it must be okay to steal Mike's copy of the orange book.
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Twinky
Plagiarism? Theft of copyright? I was checking out something that was raised in an earlier thread and found this on the home page:
And here was I, thinking that L.E.A.D. Outdoor Academy and W.O.W. Ambassadors were TWI products.
(Mods, please spin this off as a separate thread if you think more appropriate, or depending on the way this thread develops.)
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OldSkool
Still on their website too.
http://sowersonline.com
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Twinky
That's where I found it.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Mike says he got to know VPW at ROA 1972 where he seemed nice to people. Yeah Bud Morgan's documentary took that position. He later regretted that after PFAL 77.
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Mike
Hey, I'm keenly interested in the facts revolving around the John.S. paper on adultery. In 1980, several years prior, my twig did an independent precursor of that paper. It was smaller, and not as professional, but was almost in complete agreement with his.
I was informed that VPW asked Ralph D and Vince F to research the word “adultery” in 1982, and that then they asked for John S’s help. Then, after VPW’s death and after the POP was read in 1986, it was Walter who fired John S.
That’s the best I know of this. Am I wrong? If so where?
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chockfull
Hi Mike,
You're right on these facts. As many know I was young then.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030219041757/http://greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/misc/adultery.htm
Those are the details for any to read. Apparently it was after VPW's death in 1986 that JS found out that VPW had sex with a young woman not his wife who had come to him. Another told him he would be killed if he tried to stop it. He was fired by Chris Geer.
There might be some more input on this topic by another poster who was actually physically present there.
However, it also seems you are singling out one aspect of my post to answer - and failed to address the rest of it. In a previous post you set forth an accusation that posters here present a pure evil viewpoint of VPW. I mentioned that we are just removing the whitewash that is present everywhere else.
Why didn't you address that point? Not part of your agenda?
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Rocky
Thanks for the link. I went there and began reading. I found this excerpt near the beginning of the post troubling,
I began studying the the Word of God, and I got as far as the Mosaic Law which proscribes the death penalty for adultery. I believed that if God commanded the death penalty for adultery in the Old Testament, His will on the subject could not have changed with the change of administration. (emphasis mine)
I don't know if it was a typo or a gross misunderstanding or something in between but correct usage of the word "proscribes" would indicate that the Old Testament OUTLAWS the death penalty for adultery.
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Mike
I thought I did address that. I'll do it again, with more detail so you can see what I meant.
I was a twig leader in 1980, years before the JS Paper came out. In that year the need for some more clear doctrine on sex moved from the rumor stage to the actual stage when a carload of grads from the State ofMaine Maine
I mentioned earlier that my experience (and that of two other close friend HQ staff members) with these loose sex activities was totally zero. I only heard the flimsy doctrines or justifications there once, and it was very disappointing in who I had to hear it from (another friend). But the rumors on the field were stronger.
What we did in my twig in 1980 was work the words in a Young’s Concordance, and then we compiled a list of the the flimsy doctrines or justifications that we had heard, and then we worked verses that seemed to unravel them.
In July of 1987 I had resisted hearing the many rumors of the ministry falling apart and the POP. There were many reasons for this,San Diego
I knew absolutely nothing prior to that meeting, at that late date.
On a table was a stack of copies of the JS Paper. I had been told that anyone who read it would become a Trinity believer. I was not afraid and picked it up. I was stunned even more at what I saw.
It was almost identical to what we had found 7 years earlier. Even the the flimsy doctrines or justifications we had listed were there in the Appendixes. JS did a much more thorough job, and his Appendixes outnumbered ours by a few.
I felt nauseous the next day. It shook my confidence in PFAL to the core for about 11 years. I confronted leaders and friends about it. I lost many friends and would have been blacklisted but there was too much turmoil for leadership to bother with me.
In the next 11 years I experimented with all sorts of fundamental belief systems. It was quite an adventure. When I finally came back to PFAL in 1998 it was deliberate and it was after considering a wealth of information. I shopped around and compared.
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So_crates
And despite all that shopping around and comparing, you find it hard to honestly answer one question. (See the thread: Is PLAF God-breathe?)
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