On the funny side, I have always wondered how the judge for a serious TWI lawsuit against a PFAL bootlegger would react to seeing all the plagiarism charges (with full text examples) against TWI, VPW, and PFAL
We don't live in a theocracy. A judge is not supposed to make a ruling based on his or her own religious beliefs.
What I was saying is that the operation of tough love can start out being genuine, but that it easily degenerates, unless tender love is well mastered.
I've never thought that VPW had mastered perfect love. I look ONLY at the printed product the large team of workers which VPW headed, in order to see perfect love. He was a sick puppy... at times. I know that happens to me some times. I’ve gone down the wrong roads and regretted it. Haven’t you?
Because I'm not leading thousands of students, when my life goes into a tailspin phase (it happens) I can keep it pretty private. But a teacher doesn't have that luxury.
And when some unhappy students (that happens also) document those errors copiously, leaving out all the good phases that happened, it paints a distorted picture of VPW for you.
***
I know MUCH less about LCM. I don’t see his life ever blessing thousands of non-Corps, except for those years where LCM was moving PFAL, which he did well.When he was teaching the Corps, and then when he took over the ministry in 1982, there seems to be far less blessing than VPW’s years prior to 1982.
At the 1972 Rock of Ages, which was comparatively small, I happened to park next to VPW and his wife. For 3 days I had many opportunities to get to know him informally. He was a pretty normal guy in a very unusual role.
I liked him from that early encounter, but as time went on he could get on my nerves. I went through phases; he went through phases.From what I saw he was VERY tough on those who wanted to work close to him. When I worked close to him he was tough on me. I survived.
It was a war of sorts we were engaged in. He was a tough general. I think the job got done, and yes, there was collateral damage. I CHOOSE to look at what was successful and full of light, the contents of written PFAL.
Mike, IMO, the sexual assault of young women, is far more than "collateral damage." God forbid that it had happened to someone that you cherished. Mike, VPW was a evil, heartless, rapist, among other things. He used people in ungodly ways; why do you keep defending the POS?
Mike, IMO, the sexual assault of young women, is far more than "collateral damage." God forbid that it had happened to someone that you cherished. Mike, VPW was a evil, heartless, rapist, among other things. He used people in ungodly ways; why do you keep defending the POS?
He defends the POS because when it came time for self-actualization, Mike chose to base his entire life around his postulate that pfal is God-Breathed and that vpw was actually doing God's Will. It's what he's got left and it's cost him all the rest. You won't get through because he "doubles down" and "lets it ride" rather than leave the casino with whatever's left in his pocket. And he's proud about that.
What I see here is everyone adopting the model that VPW was pure evil.
Exactly. What YOU SEE here. That doesn't mean anyone else sees it the way you do.
You don't make an argument to support the claim that everyone here is adopting the model that VPW was pure evil. You have not made any argument to support that claim.
Didn't twi teach that a counterfeit must to some degree resemble the genuine?
Exactly. What YOU SEE here. That doesn't mean anyone else sees it the way you do.
You don't make an argument to support the claim that everyone here is adopting the model that VPW was pure evil. You have not made any argument to support that claim.
Didn't twi teach that a counterfeit must to some degree resemble the genuine?
I took a poll once. Even when given a chance to do so anonymously, nobody claimed vpw was pure evil. Mike sees it that way, but he has to "creatively reinterpret" what people say until he says they really said the opposite of what they said. He's an old hand at that, since he pulls the same thing with pfal materials. The Orange Book itself contrasts itself with Scripture- but according to Mike, it's Scripture.
Mike, IMO, the sexual assault of young women, is far more than "collateral damage." God forbid that it had happened to someone that you cherished. Mike, VPW was a evil, heartless, rapist, among other things. He used people in ungodly ways; why do you keep defending the POS?
I knew him personally. I know what the scriptures say about OUR old man nature. I know all sin stinks. I do NOT buy the model him being pure evil being sold here. I saw him do good. The pure evil model does not fly with reality. Get a rounded education and you may think differently. If you spent a year with some pfoPFAL people you would be able to see more.
I like Bullinger"s writings and they were not too dense for me, just disagree with their theology from my Lutheran perspective
Did you first read Bullinger before or AFTER you were fed the translation in PFAL?
My take on Bullinger is that if it weren't for PFAL absolutely NO ONE here would have ever heard of him. Ask around in the churchianity machine about him, and I think you'll find no one there knows about him either.
We don't live in a theocracy. A judge is not supposed to make a ruling based on his or her own religious beliefs.
You completely missed my point.. I'm not thinking theological charges at all.
Try picturing it again:
TWI comes to judge with complaint that someone is stealing their material. Then judge sees evidence that TWI stole the same material from someone else. HILARIOUS!
I took a poll once. Even when given a chance to do so anonymously, nobody claimed vpw was pure evil. Mike sees it that way, but he has to "creatively reinterpret" what people say until he says they really said the opposite of what they said. He's an old hand at that, since he pulls the same thing with pfal materials. The Orange Book itself contrasts itself with Scripture- but according to Mike, it's Scripture.
My call that most posters here lately are fixated on a pure evil model of VPW is purely subjective.
I make that call, and I expect that less involved readers will see the exact same attitudes that I see. It might for you all to see yourselves this way, though. It might take some uncomfortable examination and some ego tarnishing.
Mike, IMO, the sexual assault of young women, is far more than "collateral damage." God forbid that it had happened to someone that you cherished. Mike, VPW was a evil, heartless, rapist, among other things. He used people in ungodly ways; why do you keep defending the POS?
I too would not include sexual assault in the "collateral damage." I was thinking of things like career detours, education, financial independence, etc.
From the "Me Too" movement we are hearing that young women are assaulted in nearly every human organization on the planet. I started seeing this with High School football players having their way with the cheer leaders. We will soon see if the "Me Too" movement has any ability to make changes. I fear this problem is far too entrenched in our DNA (of both sexes even) and that it will not go away fast or easily.
I knew him personally. I know what the scriptures say about OUR old man nature. I know all sin stinks. I do NOT buy the model him being pure evil being sold here. I saw him do good. The pure evil model does not fly with reality. Get a rounded education and you may think differently. If you spent a year with some pfoPFAL people you would be able to see more.
You knew Saint Vic personally? That would bring you objectivity even more into question. Your too close to the subject to retain an objective point of view.
You saw him do good? Didn't Saint Vic teach that even the devil does good, so he can lead us deeper into bondage? And were those people Saint Vic did good for lead deeper into bondage?
Rather than telling her to get a rounded education to think differently (after all, you have a "rounded education" and look how you refuse to "think differently"), perhaps you should consider some of what people have been saying here. After all, Saint Vic told us what he was at the beginning of every class:
John 10:10:
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
So we've already went over how Saint Vic stole others works. He also stole their youth and their potential.
Of those women he was indiscreet with, you care to hazard a guess on how many of their spirits he killed?
Of those he abused, you care to hazard a guess on how many of them he destroyed any desire for Christianity?
And of all this, how many got that abundant life he promised?
Didn't twi teach that a counterfeit must to some degree resemble the genuine?
Yes it did. The counterfeit will look to the uneducated observer as promising good. Delivering good is a whole other story.
We had good delivered to us, and many of us still enjoy that good PFAL brought. The bad was not in the PFAL writings, but in the people, the practices that evolved, the administrators, and even in VPW himself. Those kinds of things obscured the good for some of us. By coming back to written PFAL you can see that it is good.
What I see here is everyone adopting the model that VPW was pure evil.
What I see here is everyone being slightly schizo when it comes to the PFAL material. In one personality you seem to regard the material as sacred and wonderful in the hands of BGL and Kenyon and Bullinger. Then your alter personality seems to regard the same material as evil and damaging when presented in the PFAL class, even though thousands loved it and largely benefited by it.
I’ve never thought of wierwille as pure evil. He was human like all of us – and as such he had strengths and weaknesses; but when you consider his severe duplicity I think it’s obvious his weaknesses frequently overshadowed any strengths. I don’t consider the material he stole from others as something sacred – it’s more like stolen and vandalized material.
You have to exercise your critical thinking to see the difference in the material wierwille plagiarized. wierwille took Bullinger’s dispensationalism to a whole other level by teaching “the absent Christ” and promoting a cheap grace. wierwille so mangled Bullinger’s keys to the interpretation of the Bible into teaching that the Bible interprets itself.
it’s not just that he was a blatant plagiarist - he was also incompetent in cobbling together PFAL. The overarching detrimental effect of PFAL comes from the way he twisted and skewed scripture and the work of others to construct a façade of being the man of god for our time…when others introduced him you might hear the occasional “here he is, our father in the word”…he was the one who benefited the most from PFAL – it was a means to satisfy his need for fame, fortune, power and pleasure.
Yes it did. The counterfeit will look to the uneducated observer as promising good. Delivering good is a whole other story.
We had good delivered to us, and many of us still enjoy that good PFAL brought. The bad was not in the PFAL writings, but in the people, the practices that evolved, the administrators, and even in VPW himself. Those kinds of things obscured the good for some of us. By coming back to written PFAL you can see that it is good.
And were you miss the point and refuse to open your eyes is that the ideology was set up to protect Saint Vic.
Believing isn't a spiritual principle, it's a way for Saint Vic et al to blame the victim.
His interpretation about Paul's thorn in the flesh was to cover for his womanizing. "If I were to blame Paul..., I'd want to show it to him line by line and word by word."
His story about how he would never give a negative sermon again was to cover for his alcoholism.
Yes it did. The counterfeit will look to the uneducated observer as promising good. Delivering good is a whole other story.
We had good delivered to us, and many of us still enjoy that good PFAL brought. The bad was not in the PFAL writings, but in the people, the practices that evolved, the administrators, and even in VPW himself. Those kinds of things obscured the good for some of us. By coming back to written PFAL you can see that it is good.
What PFAL brought to the new student was an introduction into the make-believe world of wierwille…
"he is to be trusted…he will guide you into all the truth…he won’t ever steer you wrong"…
"oh yes - his class will increase your prosperity, enable you to separate truth from error, teach you how to pray effectually"... and all their other empty claims…
...with the addition of each new sucker grad, the ministry evolved into an abusive, deceitful, manipulative, exploitive, destructive organization that manufactures and sells snake oil...and longtime grads hanging in there, chasing pipe dreams...many who suspected the only active ingredient in PFAL was the placebo effect - i.e. their belief in PFAL - decided to leave this make-believe world of wierwille...godspeed!...
...who's next? I'm talking to you folks still in TWI.
I knew him personally. I know what the scriptures say about OUR old man nature. I know all sin stinks. I do NOT buy the model him being pure evil being sold here. I saw him do good. The pure evil model does not fly with reality. Get a rounded education and you may think differently. If you spent a year with some pfoPFAL people you would be able to see more.
Mike MET him. Mike did not "know him personally." Mike's image of him mentally is like the teenagers who "know personally" the celebrities of which they are fans. The reality would take longer to find. I met cgeer and he seemed fine- for the time I met him, and I was looking closely during that time. He wasn't- but in those windows of time, he could fake it. After all, a rapist is only raping PART of the time....
AGAIN we get this "he was pure evil" thing that only exists when someone's trying to excuse vpw. "I saw him do good." People saw Al Capone do good. Lots of people saw John Wayne Gacy look good. Neither was "pure evil" but both were criminals who deserved prosecution for a lot of crimes. Really get a rounded education!
You completely missed my point.. I'm not thinking theological charges at all.
Try picturing it again:
TWI comes to judge with complaint that someone is stealing their material. Then judge sees evidence that TWI stole the same material from someone else. HILARIOUS!
If charges were brought, both twi and the other group could be prosecuted and found guilty. Laugh if you like.
I knew him personally. I know what the scriptures say about OUR old man nature. I know all sin stinks. I do NOT buy the model him being pure evil being sold here. I saw him do good. The pure evil model does not fly with reality. Get a rounded education and you may think differently. If you spent a year with some pfoPFAL people you would be able to see more.
Mike, you really are a POS; I am far better educated than you. I cannot abide stupid men, who defend monsters like VPW. I hope you rot in Hell.
My call that most posters here lately are fixated on a pure evil model of VPW is purely subjective.
I make that call, and I expect that less involved readers will see the exact same attitudes that I see. It might for you all to see yourselves this way, though. It might take some uncomfortable examination and some ego tarnishing.
We've been hearing those claims for decades, from the same handful of posters. I can count them all with my fingers from about the last 20 years. We've had opportunities to see the unhealthful POVs of the people who want to excuse vpw or give him a free pass. My favorite was the one who tried to justify wife-beating if she's nagging her husband. I've never been afraid of an uncomfortable truth, and my personal history of my entire adult life reflects that-as does my posting history here.
I too would not include sexual assault in the "collateral damage." I was thinking of things like career detours, education, financial independence, etc.
From the "Me Too" movement we are hearing that young women are assaulted in nearly every human organization on the planet. I started seeing this with High School football players having their way with the cheer leaders. We will soon see if the "Me Too" movement has any ability to make changes. I fear this problem is far too entrenched in our DNA (of both sexes even) and that it will not go away fast or easily.
Smooth attempt to dismiss vpw's rapes, dude. But "everybody does it" is not an excuse. We can find rapes all over the place. We can find theft all over the place. We can find murders all over the place. "Everybody else does it, why can't we" doesn't fly in a court of law. And finding a few of each crime every place doesn't mean everyone's doing them or that they're COMMON anyplace.
Yes it did. The counterfeit will look to the uneducated observer as promising good. Delivering good is a whole other story.
We had good delivered to us, and many of us still enjoy that good PFAL brought. The bad was not in the PFAL writings, but in the people, the practices that evolved, the administrators, and even in VPW himself. Those kinds of things obscured the good for some of us. By coming back to written PFAL you can see that it is good.
A counterfeit can look very convincingly like the real thing- depending on the skill of the counterfeiter and what he has to work with. A money counterfeiter, if he has the right machines, can make a counterfeit that all but an expert would pass. So, "uneducated observer" to dismiss the comment is not valid, per se.
"Delivering good." If you want to really hook someone, you need to use the right bait- which means you have to deliver good to them-for a short time.If you're subtle enough, they won't notice when you shift things slowly, eventually making everything one-way so they're giving all and you're giving none.
Oh, and lots of people were harmed trying to follow pfal writings until they stopped. How's that Law of Believing working out for you? Got actual prosperity and a rich life with happy wife and kids? Or a reinterpreted life bereft of each of those but rich because your doctrine insists you're rich?
Did you first read Bullinger before or AFTER you were fed the translation in PFAL?
My take on Bullinger is that if it weren't for PFAL absolutely NO ONE here would have ever heard of him. Ask around in the churchianity machine about him, and I think you'll find no one there knows about him either.
So, because vpw introduced people to some of Bullinger's work, he gets a pass on plagiarizing OTHER works of Bullinger? Sorry, doesn't work that way. BTW. I've noticed that vpw apologists TALK a good game. When was the last time you fed the poor? "Churchianity" does that regularly. They may not use all the proper Greek words you like, but many of them actually get the job done even using a different vocabulary....
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Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
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waysider
We don't live in a theocracy. A judge is not supposed to make a ruling based on his or her own religious beliefs.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I like Bullinger"s writings and they were not too dense for me, just disagree with their theology from my Lutheran perspective
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Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, IMO, the sexual assault of young women, is far more than "collateral damage." God forbid that it had happened to someone that you cherished. Mike, VPW was a evil, heartless, rapist, among other things. He used people in ungodly ways; why do you keep defending the POS?
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WordWolf
He defends the POS because when it came time for self-actualization, Mike chose to base his entire life around his postulate that pfal is God-Breathed and that vpw was actually doing God's Will. It's what he's got left and it's cost him all the rest. You won't get through because he "doubles down" and "lets it ride" rather than leave the casino with whatever's left in his pocket. And he's proud about that.
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Rocky
Exactly. What YOU SEE here. That doesn't mean anyone else sees it the way you do.
You don't make an argument to support the claim that everyone here is adopting the model that VPW was pure evil. You have not made any argument to support that claim.
Didn't twi teach that a counterfeit must to some degree resemble the genuine?
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OldSkool
Yes. They taught in their dta class that:
"The value and delusion of the counterfeit is increased by it's nearness to the likeness of the genuine."
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WordWolf
I took a poll once. Even when given a chance to do so anonymously, nobody claimed vpw was pure evil. Mike sees it that way, but he has to "creatively reinterpret" what people say until he says they really said the opposite of what they said. He's an old hand at that, since he pulls the same thing with pfal materials. The Orange Book itself contrasts itself with Scripture- but according to Mike, it's Scripture.
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Mike
I knew him personally. I know what the scriptures say about OUR old man nature. I know all sin stinks. I do NOT buy the model him being pure evil being sold here. I saw him do good. The pure evil model does not fly with reality. Get a rounded education and you may think differently. If you spent a year with some pfoPFAL people you would be able to see more.
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Mike
Did you first read Bullinger before or AFTER you were fed the translation in PFAL?
My take on Bullinger is that if it weren't for PFAL absolutely NO ONE here would have ever heard of him. Ask around in the churchianity machine about him, and I think you'll find no one there knows about him either.
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Mike
You completely missed my point.. I'm not thinking theological charges at all.
Try picturing it again:
TWI comes to judge with complaint that someone is stealing their material. Then judge sees evidence that TWI stole the same material from someone else. HILARIOUS!
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Mike
My call that most posters here lately are fixated on a pure evil model of VPW is purely subjective.
I make that call, and I expect that less involved readers will see the exact same attitudes that I see. It might for you all to see yourselves this way, though. It might take some uncomfortable examination and some ego tarnishing.
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Mike
I too would not include sexual assault in the "collateral damage." I was thinking of things like career detours, education, financial independence, etc.
From the "Me Too" movement we are hearing that young women are assaulted in nearly every human organization on the planet. I started seeing this with High School football players having their way with the cheer leaders. We will soon see if the "Me Too" movement has any ability to make changes. I fear this problem is far too entrenched in our DNA (of both sexes even) and that it will not go away fast or easily.
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So_crates
You knew Saint Vic personally? That would bring you objectivity even more into question. Your too close to the subject to retain an objective point of view.
You saw him do good? Didn't Saint Vic teach that even the devil does good, so he can lead us deeper into bondage? And were those people Saint Vic did good for lead deeper into bondage?
Rather than telling her to get a rounded education to think differently (after all, you have a "rounded education" and look how you refuse to "think differently"), perhaps you should consider some of what people have been saying here. After all, Saint Vic told us what he was at the beginning of every class:
John 10:10:
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
So we've already went over how Saint Vic stole others works. He also stole their youth and their potential.
Of those women he was indiscreet with, you care to hazard a guess on how many of their spirits he killed?
Of those he abused, you care to hazard a guess on how many of them he destroyed any desire for Christianity?
And of all this, how many got that abundant life he promised?
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Mike
Yes it did. The counterfeit will look to the uneducated observer as promising good. Delivering good is a whole other story.
We had good delivered to us, and many of us still enjoy that good PFAL brought. The bad was not in the PFAL writings, but in the people, the practices that evolved, the administrators, and even in VPW himself. Those kinds of things obscured the good for some of us. By coming back to written PFAL you can see that it is good.
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T-Bone
I’ve never thought of wierwille as pure evil. He was human like all of us – and as such he had strengths and weaknesses; but when you consider his severe duplicity I think it’s obvious his weaknesses frequently overshadowed any strengths. I don’t consider the material he stole from others as something sacred – it’s more like stolen and vandalized material.
You have to exercise your critical thinking to see the difference in the material wierwille plagiarized. wierwille took Bullinger’s dispensationalism to a whole other level by teaching “the absent Christ” and promoting a cheap grace. wierwille so mangled Bullinger’s keys to the interpretation of the Bible into teaching that the Bible interprets itself.
it’s not just that he was a blatant plagiarist - he was also incompetent in cobbling together PFAL. The overarching detrimental effect of PFAL comes from the way he twisted and skewed scripture and the work of others to construct a façade of being the man of god for our time…when others introduced him you might hear the occasional “here he is, our father in the word”…he was the one who benefited the most from PFAL – it was a means to satisfy his need for fame, fortune, power and pleasure.
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So_crates
And were you miss the point and refuse to open your eyes is that the ideology was set up to protect Saint Vic.
Believing isn't a spiritual principle, it's a way for Saint Vic et al to blame the victim.
His interpretation about Paul's thorn in the flesh was to cover for his womanizing. "If I were to blame Paul..., I'd want to show it to him line by line and word by word."
His story about how he would never give a negative sermon again was to cover for his alcoholism.
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T-Bone
What PFAL brought to the new student was an introduction into the make-believe world of wierwille…
"he is to be trusted…he will guide you into all the truth…he won’t ever steer you wrong"…
"oh yes - his class will increase your prosperity, enable you to separate truth from error, teach you how to pray effectually"... and all their other empty claims…
...with the addition of each new
suckergrad, the ministry evolved into an abusive, deceitful, manipulative, exploitive, destructive organization that manufactures and sells snake oil...and longtime grads hanging in there, chasing pipe dreams...many who suspected the only active ingredient in PFAL was the placebo effect - i.e. their belief in PFAL - decided to leave this make-believe world of wierwille...godspeed!......who's next? I'm talking to you folks still in TWI.
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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WordWolf
Mike MET him. Mike did not "know him personally." Mike's image of him mentally is like the teenagers who "know personally" the celebrities of which they are fans. The reality would take longer to find. I met cgeer and he seemed fine- for the time I met him, and I was looking closely during that time. He wasn't- but in those windows of time, he could fake it. After all, a rapist is only raping PART of the time....
AGAIN we get this "he was pure evil" thing that only exists when someone's trying to excuse vpw. "I saw him do good." People saw Al Capone do good. Lots of people saw John Wayne Gacy look good. Neither was "pure evil" but both were criminals who deserved prosecution for a lot of crimes. Really get a rounded education!
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WordWolf
If charges were brought, both twi and the other group could be prosecuted and found guilty. Laugh if you like.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, you really are a POS; I am far better educated than you. I cannot abide stupid men, who defend monsters like VPW. I hope you rot in Hell.
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WordWolf
We've been hearing those claims for decades, from the same handful of posters. I can count them all with my fingers from about the last 20 years. We've had opportunities to see the unhealthful POVs of the people who want to excuse vpw or give him a free pass. My favorite was the one who tried to justify wife-beating if she's nagging her husband. I've never been afraid of an uncomfortable truth, and my personal history of my entire adult life reflects that-as does my posting history here.
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WordWolf
Smooth attempt to dismiss vpw's rapes, dude. But "everybody does it" is not an excuse. We can find rapes all over the place. We can find theft all over the place. We can find murders all over the place. "Everybody else does it, why can't we" doesn't fly in a court of law. And finding a few of each crime every place doesn't mean everyone's doing them or that they're COMMON anyplace.
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WordWolf
A counterfeit can look very convincingly like the real thing- depending on the skill of the counterfeiter and what he has to work with. A money counterfeiter, if he has the right machines, can make a counterfeit that all but an expert would pass. So, "uneducated observer" to dismiss the comment is not valid, per se.
"Delivering good." If you want to really hook someone, you need to use the right bait- which means you have to deliver good to them-for a short time.If you're subtle enough, they won't notice when you shift things slowly, eventually making everything one-way so they're giving all and you're giving none.
Oh, and lots of people were harmed trying to follow pfal writings until they stopped. How's that Law of Believing working out for you? Got actual prosperity and a rich life with happy wife and kids? Or a reinterpreted life bereft of each of those but rich because your doctrine insists you're rich?
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WordWolf
So, because vpw introduced people to some of Bullinger's work, he gets a pass on plagiarizing OTHER works of Bullinger? Sorry, doesn't work that way. BTW. I've noticed that vpw apologists TALK a good game. When was the last time you fed the poor? "Churchianity" does that regularly. They may not use all the proper Greek words you like, but many of them actually get the job done even using a different vocabulary....
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