The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book?

[Mike]

13 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Chock, excellent post!!  In my opinion, the heart of Christianity, teaches people how to "interact in a virtuous way."  I hated all the yelling, and screaming in TWI.  I never understood why there was so much of that nonsense.  I thought the purpose of The Word was to make us better people; not to teach us to snap at each other.  Chock, I think if TWI had taught people to interact with love, and patience, perhaps many of us would still be involved.

I agree 100%. 

There are reasons whey it morphed that way. It started out with some good intentions, but completely got out of hand.

[Mike]

9 hours ago, So_crates said:

So what of Roman 13:2:

So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.

Couple that with I Peter 2:13:

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

 

Hypothetically, if you interviewed Shadrack, Mishack, and Abendigo as they exited the burning fiery furnace, would you strongly encourage them to obey the law, after all, and bow down to Nebuchadnezzar? 

That IS the law! 

OK then. Shadrack, Mishack, and Abendigo refuse AGAIN and vow allegiance to God.

So what now? Back for round two of the burning fiery furnace?

Too bad no one was back there with good advice like that.

[skyrider]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Not exactly. 

The original Scriptures no one has.

We have only tattered remnants of them from the 3rd or 4th century. The modern (16^th century and later) scholarly reconstructions of the ancient scriptures known as the “Critical Greek Texts” are void of authority.

We also have no official, authoritative, God-breathed, English translation of the ancient scriptures. NONE.

I am saying the PFAL writings are the only God-breathed documents in the world right now, and as such they are on an equal footing with the ancient Scriptures when they were in the world long ago.

 

Mike.........I think that it's fair to say that you are a cult of one.

[Twinky]

This topic is rather amazing in the way it swirls around.

It reminds me of Tom Sharpe's Wilt novels.  And Blott on the Landscape.  And Porterhouse Blue.  Other works. 

Basically, the author takes a "normal," if sometimes a little strange, situation, and keeps giving a bit of a tweak, some decision by the proponent that seems rational in the circumstances, that triggers something else, then another nearly rational decision - until suddenly you realise that you are in a totally bizarre scenario that is a million miles from where you started.  Little in novels, etc, makes me laugh out loud.  Snigger and snort a bit, but laugh out loud with tears running down my face?  Wilt had me getting a complaint from the person sleeping upstairs ("You're laughing too loudly, be quiet!") (T-Bone, I think you'd enjoy these.  Bit old but still funny.)

And that's what seems to be happening on this thread.

[T-Bone]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Everyone must select basic assumptions in life, and build from there.

Euclid's Geometry does this. It starts with Euclid's BEST set of FIVE assumptions or postulates, and built the rest from there.

That’s like comparing apples to the orange book 

Big difference – Euclid   was a Greek mathematician, often referred to as the father of geometry – and from a set of axioms he developed a branch of  mathematics concerned with questions of shape, size, relative position of figures, and the properties of space…that’s how engineers solve problems in the real world.

Judging by the experience of thousands upon thousands of grads, PFAL failed to solve problems in the real world…matter of fact, it usually made things worse.

[So_crates]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

Hypothetically, if you interviewed Shadrack, Mishack, and Abendigo as they exited the burning fiery furnace, would you strongly encourage them to obey the law, after all, and bow down to Nebuchadnezzar? 

That IS the law! 

OK then. Shadrack, Mishack, and Abendigo refuse AGAIN and vow allegiance to God.

So what now? Back for round two of the burning fiery furnace?

Too bad no one was back there with good advice like that.

Another apples to oranges comparison.

God clearly states no idols, just as he clearly states no stealing. Nowhere does he state "Because I own everything your free to steal other people's work." Or is that a commandment I missed somewhere?

I've shown you "line by line and word by word" where it says we're to obey the laws of men. The least you could do is present the same: "show me line by line and word by word" where it says God owns everything and that gives us the right to steal.

Mike:

Everyone must select basic assumptions in life, and build from there.

Euclid's Geometry does this. It starts with Euclid's BEST set of FIVE assumptions or postulates, and built the rest from there.

 

Me:

You forgot one word: Proven. Everyone must select basic PROVEN assumptions in life.

For example, I assume gravity doesn't exist, so I can fly, should I do a one and a half pike off a building?

I assume flames only burns non-organic matter, should I stick my hands in a fire

 

Mike:

I am able to face great opposition with my mindset. Can you folks claim the same?

 

Me:

Sure. You know anyone who can provide great opposition? 

So far, for me, its been like playing pigeon chess:

 

Mike:

Everyone here is arguing VERY POORLY against me IF IT IS THE CASE that PFAL (and some of its predecessors) is God-breathed, and therefore owned by God. This ownership is current, and not that vague, overall, eventual ownership someone keeps throwing at me.

 

Me:

No, you've argued very poorly that Saint Vic has the right to steal. Your arguments are rittled with false equivances and logical fallacies. Oh, and circular logic. Let's not forget circular logic (This is true because I say it's true).  I'm sure if a student turned in a paper like your arguments you'd waste no time giving them an "F".

My advise: fire your advisors, you know those people you have coming onto the forum to check your work, then run to to see what to answer. One of the problems with an echo chamber is nobody can think outside the echo chamber.

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by So_crates

[T-Bone]

10 hours ago, Mike said:

(Snip)...

I agree that if my assumption is wrong, then I’m SUPER wrong in everything I said about plagiarism and PFAL. The fact that none of you want to admit the converse (PFAL from God, no plagiarism) is obvious to all.

If my assumption is wrong, then I’m in deep doo doo.

If my assumption is right, then eventually you’ll have to face the fact that all my plagiarism arguments were right, and were deliberately unseen.

***

Anyone want to see a proof that PFAL is God-breathed? It wont come from bull-headedly insisting it’s pure evil.  It comes from becoming meek again.

BTW, none of my plagiarism arguments are designed to inspire you to come back to PFAL. God will have to do that. I argue what I do on this topic to show you I am not mindlessly worshipping VPW, and that I have put a massive amount of careful thought into recognizing the great merits of PFAL.

I am able to face great opposition with my mindset. Can you folks claim the same?

I think you get too little resistance in these issues. I wish more proPFAL posters would be here to help me show you folks how much you’ve NOT sufficiently thought through. Come over to my side of the Assumption Bar and show the readers here how mentally flexible you can be. So far you’ve meticulously avoided ALL MENTION of how right I am IF it is the case that PFAL is God-breathed.

Wake up and smell the shookey-doo...your arguments have been a house of cards that keeps collapsing from the slightest intellectual challenge.

[T-Bone]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Not exactly. 

The original Scriptures no one has.

We have only tattered remnants of them from the 3rd or 4th century. The modern (16^th century and later) scholarly reconstructions of the ancient scriptures known as the “Critical Greek Texts” are void of authority.

We also have no official, authoritative, God-breathed, English translation of the ancient scriptures. NONE.

I am saying the PFAL writings are the only God-breathed documents in the world right now, and as such they are on an equal footing with the ancient Scriptures when they were in the world long ago.

 

 

 Wow ! That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard Mike   say...for those late to the party this is what happens when adulation supersedes reason.

3 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

Mike.........I think that it's fair to say that you are a cult of one.

Yeah, I’m sorry Mike but I’ve limited myself to one cult per lifetime.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

I agree 100%. 

There are reasons whey it morphed that way. It started out with some good intentions, but completely got out of hand.

Mike, seriously I would like to know why VPW and LCM screamed so much.  In my view, people who scream all the time, usually have problems communicating with others.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

5 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

 Wow ! That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard Mike   say...for those late to the party this is what happens when adulation supersedes reason.

Yeah, I’m sorry Mike but I’ve limited myself to one cult per lifetime.

Sky, one was more than enough for me.

[Mike]

5 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

Mike.........I think that it's fair to say that you are a cult of one.

I think that it's fair to say you completely avoided commenting on any of my points.  Your argument here is "Mike, you're too different to be right."

[skyrider]

2 hours ago, So_crates said:

 

 

Yes........and notice, the pigeon dictates the boundaries of the chessboard............."the pfal-writings."

What is NOT on the chessboard is......

1. Scripture...............namely, I Timothy 3
2. Vpw's character and manner of life
3. Demonstration of holy spirit....ie. 9 manifestations
4. Shall know them by their fruit........what was vic's fruit?
5. Built on sand.......it comes crashing down
6. Etc. etc.

As long as the boundaries are "the writings of wierwille".........the pigeon will continue to strut and schit all over this board.

[Mike]

3 minutes ago, skyrider said:

1. Shall know them by their fruit........what was vic's fruit?

Interesting topic.

Let's brainstorm a little, because this is an area I am not yet settled on.

How do you know the fruit of a teacher?  I'm talking IN GENERAL, not just in vpw's case.

(A) Do you look at HIS life to see what fruit, good or bad,  he has cooking?

(B) Do you look at other students lives to see what fruit they have cooking?

(C) Do you look at your own life to see what fruit YOU have cooking that wasn't there before?

All my life, both in and out, before and after TWI, I've seen MANY people judge MANY teachers by how accurately they THINK they can see (A) and (B).  I've always found it very difficult to accurately see inside another person's life. I know we can see SOME things, but I always get the impression that there can be much more that is unseen, especially before and after contrasts.

But  when it comes to (C), when I look there I am an EXPERT. I can see it all, accurately, and I see the before and accurate.

Which of these three items do you think YOU are an expert at judging? Hmmm?

 

 

 

 

[T-Bone]

14 minutes ago, skyrider said:

(Snip)...

As long as the boundaries are "the writings of wierwille".........the pigeon will continue to strut and schit all over this board.

Does that make it a stool pigeon?

[Grace Valerie Claire]

Soc, I love your bird character!

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Mike, seriously I would like to know why VPW and LCM screamed so much.  In my view, people who scream all the time, usually have problems communicating with others.

Good question.

Have you ever tried to supervise a couple of thousand people? It sounds challenging to me. I hate yelling, but sometimes, rarely, it's necessary. I would think, that because VPW and LCM are human, some of the times they were just plain wrong. Other times it may have been needed.

Of course when Jesus Christ got angry, he was right on in how he applied that anger. When he faced the Pharisees or Peter's unrenewed mind, he was pretty tough.

Tough love is usually counterfeit, IMO. When someone gets real practiced at tender love, like Jesus was, THEN and then only, do they qualify for the tough love applications. Paul was VERY tough (and rightly) on one of the Corinthian believers in his first epistle to them but he later switched back to the tender in his second epistle. He and Barnabas also had some tough conflict.

There were many other teachers in TWI that unwisely resorted to tough love. Maybe even a few posters here. I sometimes get the equivalent of yelling from the keyboards of angry posters here.  It's human to yell. It's more human to yell inappropriately.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Mike

[So_crates]

40 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think that it's fair to say you completely avoided commenting on any of my points.  Your argument here is "Mike, you're too different to be right."

And I think it's fair to say you completely avoid commenting on my points.

You decry the "pure evil" Saint Vic portrait here, yet you embody the things that make that paradigm.

 

Saint Vic's do as I say not as I do attitude. What do you think would happen to me if I started collecting money and teaching PLAF without the ministry's blessing? Wanna bet I'd get a cease and desist letter from Kanwee, Cheetum, and Howe, attorneys at law?

Of course, I'd send them a letter back explaining that all intellectual property is God's and I'm ordained (by Universal Life Church), so I have the right to charge and teach it.

How long do you think it'll be before I wind up in court for a copyright violation?

 

Saint Vic's circular logic. "This is true because I say it's true"

 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by So_crates

[Mike]

30 minutes ago, So_crates said:

You decry the "pure evil" Saint Vic portrait here, yet you embody the things that make that paradigm.

The pure evil paradigm is just plain wrong.  It totally ignores the great good done for thousands of grads. It's not believable to those who were there and got good fruit in their lives for it.

 

Saint Vic's do as I say not as I do attitude. What do you think would happen to me if I started collecting money and teaching PLAF without the ministry's blessing? Wanna bet I'd get a cease and desist letter from Kanwee, Cheetum, and Howe, attorneys at law?

Of course, I'd send them a letter back explaining that all intellectual property is God's and I'm ordained (by Universal Life Church), so I have the right to charge and teach it.

How long do you think it'll be before I wind up in court for a copyright violation?

A few brave grads have dared to do just that. A few have come to the attention of TWI. By far, most of these violations were met with a stern letter from the law offices of the TWI attorney, but it was mostly bluff.  I did hear of one grad getting significantly hassled, but he was in leadership AND he was not very wise in how he crossed them. I think he's fine now, though.

On the funny side, I have always wondered how the judge for a serious TWI lawsuit against a PFAL bootlegger would react to seeing all the plagiarism charges (with full text examples) against TWI, VPW, and PFAL.

I also think TWI staff and attorney wonder with great dread how such a judge would react.

I have toyed with the theory (here) years ago that VPW and God purposely set it up this way so that we can have the gold. By now, after 30 full years of copying, there are many hundreds (if not a few thousand) of bootleg copies of the class videos and books circulating.  The material has been effectively driven into  the public domain.  I think this may have been deliberate. ...and is quite hilarious!

 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Mike

[Grace Valerie Claire]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Good question.

Have you ever tried to supervise a couple of thousand people? It sounds challenging to me. I hate yelling, but sometimes, rarely, it's necessary. I would think, that because VPW and LCM are human, some of the times they were just plain wrong. Other times it may have been needed.

Of course when Jesus Christ got angry, he was right on in how he applied that anger. When he faced the Pharisees or Peter's unrenewed mind, he was pretty tough.

Tough love is usually counterfeit, IMO. When someone gets real practiced at tender love, like Jesus was, THEN and then only, do they qualify for the tough love applications. Paul was VERY tough (and rightly) on one of the Corinthian believers in his first epistle to them but he later switched back to the tender in his second epistle. He and Barnabas also had some tough conflict.

There were many other teachers in TWI that unwisely resorted to tough love. Maybe even a few posters here. I sometimes get the equivalent of yelling from the keyboards of angry posters here.  It's human to yell. It's more human to yell inappropriately.

Mike, I don't think it was "tough love", when they screamed.  I think they were out-of-control jerks, who wanted attention.  If kids scream like that, they usually get scolded for their ungodly behavior.  I think both VPW, and LCM were sick, sick puppies.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Does that make it a stool pigeon?

T-Bone, what a clever post!  

[T-Bone]

7 minutes ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Mike, I don't think it was "tough love", when they screamed.  I think they were out-of-control jerks, who wanted attention.  If kids scream like that, they usually get scolded for their ungodly behavior.  I think both VPW, and LCM were sick, sick puppies.

Don’t forget the  bi+ch   of the litter - Rosalie Rivenbark

[Grace Valerie Claire]

20 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Don’t forget the  bi+ch   of the litter - Rosalie Rivenbark

T-Bone, I left TWI long before RR was the "Queen B."

[waysider]

We're nineteen pages into this thread, Mike. I have yet to see you offer any proof for your assertion of PFAL being "God-Breathed".

[Mike]

50 minutes ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Mike, I don't think it was "tough love", when they screamed.  I think they were out-of-control jerks, who wanted attention.  If kids scream like that, they usually get scolded for their ungodly behavior.  I think both VPW, and LCM were sick, sick puppies.

What I was saying is that the operation of tough love can start out being genuine, but that it easily degenerates, unless tender love is well mastered. 

I've never thought that VPW had mastered perfect love. I look ONLY at the printed product the large team of workers which VPW headed, in order to see perfect love. He was a sick puppy... at times. I know that happens to me some times. I’ve gone down the wrong roads and regretted it. Haven’t you?

Because I'm not leading thousands of students, when my life goes into a tailspin phase (it happens) I can keep it pretty private. But a teacher doesn't have that luxury.

And when some unhappy students (that happens also) document those errors copiously, leaving out all the good phases that happened, it paints a distorted picture of VPW for you.

***

I know MUCH less about LCM.  I don’t see his life ever blessing thousands of non-Corps, except for those years where LCM was moving PFAL, which he did well.  When he was teaching the Corps, and then when he took over the ministry in 1982, there seems to be far less blessing than VPW’s years prior to 1982.

At the 1972 Rock of Ages, which was comparatively small, I happened to park next to VPW and his wife. For 3 days I had many opportunities to get to know him informally. He was a pretty normal guy in a very unusual role.

I liked him from that early encounter, but as time went on he could get on my nerves. I went through phases; he went through phases.  From what I saw he was VERY tough on those who wanted to work close to him.  When I worked close to him he was tough on me. I survived.

It was a war of sorts we were engaged in. He was a tough general. I think the job got done, and yes, there was collateral damage. I CHOOSE to look at what was successful and full of light, the contents of written PFAL.

 

[Mike]

41 minutes ago, waysider said:

We're nineteen pages into this thread, Mike. I have yet to see you offer any proof for your assertion of PFAL being "God-Breathed".

Wouldn't that belong on a separate thread?