Don’t forget you only see my beliefs in a tiny window in time. AND, you only can comprehend my views to the extent that you set down your Pure Evil glasses and take a fresh look at the heart behind my words. You are often distracted by your search for targets to shoot at in my words. My points get missed. I can see it often.
You only see my beliefs in a tiny window in time. There are years and seasons when I was greatly disappointed in VPW.
I was NEVER into any hero worship over him, though I have acknowledged his being well equipped mentally. Personally I have often thought of him as bit of a jerk at times, and a remark to that effect last week caused a stir here because of the one dimensional inaccuracies many have in mind here regarding what I post.
There were also years and seasons when my affinity to the film class dimmed. I was NEVER into the idea that anything was perfected in the writings until 1998, long after TWI was over for me.
So when you say “it seems too bad you don't see anything outside of the box of dictor's supposed godly inspiration” youare COMPLETELY unaware of the many, many times I have spent outside of this well constructed WayBox I am now so well protected in.
It is not me who has been stuck in boxes. I see many here who were stuck in pretty pure Wierwille worship for some years, and wham!, now it’s stuck some years in a Pure Evil box to describe VPW.
I think I am a very rare poster here who has had a rich sense of balance to weigh my decisions on loyalty.
You're right, Mike, we don't see anything about you but your words. I don't attempt to read between the lines. Just your words.
You haven't conveyed with your words any such "rich sense of balance" here anyway.
My thesis is that the good and bad mix in the extraPFAL activities FOR THE CORPS (mostly) served as camouflage, and that your resulting assessment of that mix was blurred. The only way to know if my thesis is true is to come back to PFAL and see its purity. Don't come back to see apparent errors. Let it bless you again, like it did long ago.
I agree the trappings of the ministry are not worth coming back to, but written PFAL is a lot different.
Oh yeah - forgot to ask another question on this post - when were you in the way corps program?
Oh yeah - forgot to ask another question on this post - when were you in the way corps program?
I was never in the Corps program. When I was active in the ministry it was easy to see from the outside that Corps people were overloaded with activities and responsibilities. That was confirmed abundantly to me here by Corps posters. That was the gist of my post. Studying the books and articles were IMO a low priority for most grads after they passed the Advanced Class exam.
Studying the books and articles were IMO a low priority for most grads after they passed the Advanced Class exam.
Not sure what orhers went through in terms of busy work, when i was in-rez there wasnt so much an emphasis on being buzy 24/7 but work/study. We spent 4 hours a day in study hall or classes, 4 hours in assigned jobs, and evenings were either fellowship, study at home, or self structure - which is a rather instutionalized way of saying time off.
Mike, ive spent countless hours studying ministry publications. I even listened to many hours of sns tapes, univerisity of life, et. al. So very many times i traced vics teachings back to the source. In university of life for example the teachings on Romans are clearly lifted in part from:
I was never in the Corps program. When I was active in the ministry it was easy to see from the outside that Corps people were overloaded with activities and responsibilities. That was confirmed abundantly to me here by Corps posters. That was the gist of my post. Studying the books and articles were IMO a low priority for most grads after they passed the Advanced Class exam.
When I was in residence we had to live and breathe PFAL...often we were called upon during meals to give a 5 minute teaching...folks that quoted almost verbatim something from one of the collaterals were given the highest praise...when it came time to start working on our research paper we were emphatically instructed: don’t try to reinvent the wheel - base your research paper on something from PFAL.
I was never in the Corps program. When I was active in the ministry it was easy to see from the outside that Corps people were overloaded with activities and responsibilities. That was confirmed abundantly to me here by Corps posters. That was the gist of my post. Studying the books and articles were IMO a low priority for most grads after they passed the Advanced Class exam.
Incorrect. In-residence study hall has been dedicated 4 hours a day to the class materials the Way put out for quite a while. Meaning class syllabus, collaterals, etc. were focused on to the exclusion of other research materials. They take the ministry classes in-residence, except over an extended period of time so they can work the materials 4 hours a day during that timeframe. So that which you accuse all of us of, not really understanding the depth of VPW's teachings, is false, egotistical, and presumptuous. Many posters here, myself included, probably have spent more time in the collaterals and teachings of VPW than you have, for example.
I was never in the Corps program. When I was active in the ministry it was easy to see from the outside that Corps people were overloaded with activities and responsibilities. That was confirmed abundantly to me here by Corps posters. That was the gist of my post. Studying the books and articles were IMO a low priority for most grads after they passed the Advanced Class exam.
Two things, Mike......
Exploitation
Indoctrination
No matter how much you idolize wierwille and his writings, he also initiated and implemented the corps work/study program. The corps "training" program was a product of his oversight and involvement. In 1978, when I went in-residence.........the plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and masonry workers in the 7th corps (elder corps) were shipped off to Camp Gunnison to work. So, many of these guys missed whole swaths of classes.......Greek, Aramaic, Thessalonians, etc.......and were put to work for 8-10 hours per day (ie exploited for work, because the "academic side of the corps program" was a scam). And besides, lots of the "in-house teachings" were indoctrination anyways.
In the Spring of 1979........lots of corps were sent to work at L.E.A.D. hdqts. Same deal.......plumbers, electricians, etc.
Go ahead and point out that corps people were "overloaded with activities and responsibilities"..........but then, ask the follow-up question, why? Why all the over-burdened activity? Who was running this railroad anyways? If wierwille and corps coordinators were using and abusing others, then they were not following Jesus' teachings, were they?
Mike, you might want to refrain bringing *the corps program* into the picture, because it soils every aspect of wierwille's character.........1) promised in-depth biblical truths, but furthered indoctrination, 2) derailed people's lives from career building, 3) exploited labor to build his campuses, 4) bullied and intimidated corps who raised questions or dissented, 5) boasted of nine manifestations, but couldn't do them, 6) drank his Drambuie at late-night corps mtgs or night owls, 7) sexual predation on motor coach with corps girls, 8) etc. etc.
I was never in the Corps program. When I was active in the ministry it was easy to see from the outside that Corps people were overloaded with activities and responsibilities. That was confirmed abundantly to me here by Corps posters. That was the gist of my post. Studying the books and articles were IMO a low priority for most grads after they passed the Advanced Class exam.
I find it no end of interesting that a class, supposedly built on bibical principles, has not one bible verse explaining what gives Saint Vic the right to steal others work.
I find it no end of interesting that a class, supposedly built on bibical principles, has not one bible verse explaining what gives Saint Vic the right to steal others work.
How deep did you look? Long ago I'd love talking with grads who thought deeper than I could. Not so many in recent decades, but many years ago these things were discussed by some of us.
Here's an angle on supposed plagiarism that I heard some years ago, but haven't brainstormed much with yet. I'm sure it never dawned on anyone here, so brace yourselves for a big surprise.
Remember the Peoples' Tree? It's not stealing to take the fruit from the the Peoples' Tree.
How deep did you look? Long ago I'd love talking with grads who thought deeper than I could. Not so many in recent decades, but many years ago these things were discussed by some of us.
Really? So if there is a verse out there saying it was okay to steal anothers work where is it?
Why hasn't Saint Vic presented it? He's presented his rationalizations for his sexual misconduct, but somehow he missed where it says thou shalt steal in the bible.
Quote
Here's an angle on supposed plagiarism that I heard some years ago, but haven't brainstormed much with yet. I'm sure it never dawned on anyone here, so brace yourselves for a big surprise.
Remember the Peoples' Tree? It's not stealing to take the fruit from the the Peoples' Tree.
First off, your presenting a Middle Eastern custom as a rationalization for stealing.
That's like saying because they cut off theives hands in some parts of the world it's okay for us to cut off theives hands here.
Guess what? We're not in the Middle East and our custom is a man has the right to the benefits of his work, hence patent and copyright laws.
Quote
Discuss.
I want to see where it says in the bible "line by line and word by word" thou shalt steal.
Meanwhile, you've said Saint Vic is guilt in the courts of men.
Well, as presented on the previous page and once again you chose to ignore, "line by line and word by word":
So what of Roman 13:2:
So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.
Couple that with I Peter 2:13:
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
As you can see, God expects us to respect the laws of our land, including copyrights and plagerism.
I find it no end of interesting that a class, supposedly built on bibical principles, has not one bible verse explaining what gives Saint Vic the right to steal others work.
6 hours ago, Mike said:
How deep did you look? Long ago I'd love talking with grads who thought deeper than I could. Not so many in recent decades, but many years ago these things were discussed by some of us.
Here's an angle on supposed plagiarism that I heard some years ago, but haven't brainstormed much with yet. I'm sure it never dawned on anyone here, so brace yourselves for a big surprise.
Remember the Peoples' Tree? It's not stealing to take the fruit from the the Peoples' Tree.
Discuss.
Mike, did you first become aware of wierwille’s plagiarism years ago by talking with these grads?
I am curious as to the purpose of these discussions you’ve had with those grads. ..based on your description of the group conversations – noting that you were addressing the issue of plagiarism and the extra effort made (“thought deeper”) – and correct me if I’ve got this wrong – but it sounds like the “angle” you all were working on was how to sidestep wierwille’s plagiarism by redefining the act of stealing. Or was there some other reason for this concerted effort?
6 hours ago, OldSkool said:
Remember the peoples court? .....lol...
5 hours ago, Mike said:
I remember how things went in court for the Chicago 8 and for the Pentegon Papers.
Sometimes the stuffy pomp of human courts blanches when higher principles come into play.
It seems obvious to me that OldSkool thwarted the sidestep by bringing back the legal aspect of wierwille’s plagiarism – ignoring the whole fairy tale ploy…
but now I am curious…in your rebuff to the peoples’ court reference – are you suggesting wierwille’s plagiarism is above the law by appealing to “higher principles”? If so, please explain.
It seems obvious to me that OldSkool thwarted the sidestep by bringing back the legal aspect of wierwille’s plagiarism – ignoring the whole fairy tale ploy…
That was my intent T-Bone, but Mike's rebuff (again) demonstrated he considers Wierwille above the laws of the land, above whats accepted as right, and even above clear scripture on the subjects of honesty, stealing, etc. So basically, according to Mike, God has contradicted his own Word and principles in order to give revelation to vic to steal pfal, and other works. Basically, God has had to lie, which scripture plainly states he cannot do. So either Mike is in error, or God needed to warp his own nature to tell vic to steal.
That was my intent T-Bone, but Mike's rebuff (again) demonstrated he considers Wierwille above the laws of the land, above whats accepted as right, and even above clear scripture on the subjects of honesty, stealing, etc. So basically, according to Mike, God has contradicted his own Word and principles in order to give revelation to vic to steal pfal, and other works. Basically, God has had to lie, which scripture plainly states he cannot do. So either Mike is in error, or God needed to warp his own nature to tell vic to steal.
I agree...and actually I came back online to revise my phrase "ignoring the whole fairy tale ploy" cuz I couldn't think of the logical fallacy term for putting wierwille's plagiarism in the same category as folks gathering food from a community tree - I think it's called association fallacy - but maybe some debate experts here could clarify it if I'm wrong
Was the wild fig a "community tree"? I don't know. I'd like to have some non Way sources to verify. All we have at the moment is the word of VPW and K.C. Pillai. Maybe they are correct. I'd like to see it from some outside sources, though.
Was the wild fig a "community tree"? I don't know. I'd like to have some non Way sources to verify. All we have at the moment is the word of VPW and K.C. Pillai. Maybe they are correct. I'd like to see it from some outside sources, though.
Where I'm lost, Waysider, is why we're accepting an orientalism, or custom, of the Middle East to explain behavior here.
We're not in the Middle East and their customs don't apply.
Is their somewhere in the bible where God commands the fig tree be a community tree?
Where I'm lost, Waysider, is why we're using an orientalism, or custom, of the Middle East to explain behavior here.
We're not in the Middle East and their customs don't apply.
Is their somewhere in the bible where God commands the fig tree be a community tree?
Mike is saying it's acceptable to plagiarize Biblical writers because there was an ancient custom that said anyone was free to eat of a fig tree. He said it was the "Peoples' Tree". First, we don't know if this was even a custom, as the only place I ever heard it taught was in The Way. And, as you noted, if the custom did exist, it's not clear why it would be relevant to modern society. As far as I know, there is no scriptural basis for this custom. If, indeed, the custom was authentic, it's still a false comparison, as it's attempting to equate an antiquated societal custom with the legality of modern plagiarism. Sort of an apples and figs comparison, if you will.
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
skyrider
Thanks guys….. life is good, all is well. It’s good to see GSC continuing to sound the alarm as we move into the 2023 new year. Even though twi tries to guilt advanced class grads and corps to *
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Rocky
I know what it means. I was remarking on your unconscionable sycophancy.
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T-Bone
Well then, he didn’t recognize my vote that indicated I was not “blessed”
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Rocky
You're right, Mike, we don't see anything about you but your words. I don't attempt to read between the lines. Just your words.
You haven't conveyed with your words any such "rich sense of balance" here anyway.
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T-Bone
Oh yeah - forgot to ask another question on this post - when were you in the way corps program?
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Mike
I was never in the Corps program. When I was active in the ministry it was easy to see from the outside that Corps people were overloaded with activities and responsibilities. That was confirmed abundantly to me here by Corps posters. That was the gist of my post. Studying the books and articles were IMO a low priority for most grads after they passed the Advanced Class exam.
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OldSkool
Not sure what orhers went through in terms of busy work, when i was in-rez there wasnt so much an emphasis on being buzy 24/7 but work/study. We spent 4 hours a day in study hall or classes, 4 hours in assigned jobs, and evenings were either fellowship, study at home, or self structure - which is a rather instutionalized way of saying time off.
Mike, ive spent countless hours studying ministry publications. I even listened to many hours of sns tapes, univerisity of life, et. al. So very many times i traced vics teachings back to the source. In university of life for example the teachings on Romans are clearly lifted in part from:
http://www.tftmin.org/books/just-and-the-justifier
Which does a much better job on the subject matter of Romans than wierwille ever could.
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T-Bone
When I was in residence we had to live and breathe PFAL...often we were called upon during meals to give a 5 minute teaching...folks that quoted almost verbatim something from one of the collaterals were given the highest praise...when it came time to start working on our research paper we were emphatically instructed: don’t try to reinvent the wheel - base your research paper on something from PFAL.
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waysider
Here's some information on the author. So much for "hadn't been known since the first century".
HERE
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chockfull
Incorrect. In-residence study hall has been dedicated 4 hours a day to the class materials the Way put out for quite a while. Meaning class syllabus, collaterals, etc. were focused on to the exclusion of other research materials. They take the ministry classes in-residence, except over an extended period of time so they can work the materials 4 hours a day during that timeframe. So that which you accuse all of us of, not really understanding the depth of VPW's teachings, is false, egotistical, and presumptuous. Many posters here, myself included, probably have spent more time in the collaterals and teachings of VPW than you have, for example.
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skyrider
Two things, Mike......
No matter how much you idolize wierwille and his writings, he also initiated and implemented the corps work/study program. The corps "training" program was a product of his oversight and involvement. In 1978, when I went in-residence.........the plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and masonry workers in the 7th corps (elder corps) were shipped off to Camp Gunnison to work. So, many of these guys missed whole swaths of classes.......Greek, Aramaic, Thessalonians, etc.......and were put to work for 8-10 hours per day (ie exploited for work, because the "academic side of the corps program" was a scam). And besides, lots of the "in-house teachings" were indoctrination anyways.
In the Spring of 1979........lots of corps were sent to work at L.E.A.D. hdqts. Same deal.......plumbers, electricians, etc.
Go ahead and point out that corps people were "overloaded with activities and responsibilities"..........but then, ask the follow-up question, why? Why all the over-burdened activity? Who was running this railroad anyways? If wierwille and corps coordinators were using and abusing others, then they were not following Jesus' teachings, were they?
Mike, you might want to refrain bringing *the corps program* into the picture, because it soils every aspect of wierwille's character.........1) promised in-depth biblical truths, but furthered indoctrination, 2) derailed people's lives from career building, 3) exploited labor to build his campuses, 4) bullied and intimidated corps who raised questions or dissented, 5) boasted of nine manifestations, but couldn't do them, 6) drank his Drambuie at late-night corps mtgs or night owls, 7) sexual predation on motor coach with corps girls, 8) etc. etc.
.
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So_crates
I find it no end of interesting that a class, supposedly built on bibical principles, has not one bible verse explaining what gives Saint Vic the right to steal others work.
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Mike
How deep did you look? Long ago I'd love talking with grads who thought deeper than I could. Not so many in recent decades, but many years ago these things were discussed by some of us.
Here's an angle on supposed plagiarism that I heard some years ago, but haven't brainstormed much with yet. I'm sure it never dawned on anyone here, so brace yourselves for a big surprise.
Remember the Peoples' Tree? It's not stealing to take the fruit from the the Peoples' Tree.
Discuss.
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OldSkool
Remember the peoples court? .....lol...
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Mike
I remember how things went in court for the Chicago 8 and for the Pentegon Papers.
Sometimes the stuffy pomp of human courts blanches when higher principles come into play.
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waysider
"Remember the Peoples' Tree? It's not stealing to take the fruit from the the Peoples' Tree."
I remember VPW teaching that. Where is that found in the Bible?
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Twinky
Would that be the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Don't forget that "When you eat of it you will surely die.”
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So_crates
Really? So if there is a verse out there saying it was okay to steal anothers work where is it?
Why hasn't Saint Vic presented it? He's presented his rationalizations for his sexual misconduct, but somehow he missed where it says thou shalt steal in the bible.
First off, your presenting a Middle Eastern custom as a rationalization for stealing.
That's like saying because they cut off theives hands in some parts of the world it's okay for us to cut off theives hands here.
Guess what? We're not in the Middle East and our custom is a man has the right to the benefits of his work, hence patent and copyright laws.
I want to see where it says in the bible "line by line and word by word" thou shalt steal.
Meanwhile, you've said Saint Vic is guilt in the courts of men.
Well, as presented on the previous page and once again you chose to ignore, "line by line and word by word":
So what of Roman 13:2:
So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.
Couple that with I Peter 2:13:
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
As you can see, God expects us to respect the laws of our land, including copyrights and plagerism.
Discuss
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T-Bone
Mike, did you first become aware of wierwille’s plagiarism years ago by talking with these grads?
I am curious as to the purpose of these discussions you’ve had with those grads. ..based on your description of the group conversations – noting that you were addressing the issue of plagiarism and the extra effort made (“thought deeper”) – and correct me if I’ve got this wrong – but it sounds like the “angle” you all were working on was how to sidestep wierwille’s plagiarism by redefining the act of stealing. Or was there some other reason for this concerted effort?
It seems obvious to me that OldSkool thwarted the sidestep by bringing back the legal aspect of wierwille’s plagiarism – ignoring the whole fairy tale ploy…
but now I am curious…in your rebuff to the peoples’ court reference – are you suggesting wierwille’s plagiarism is above the law by appealing to “higher principles”? If so, please explain.
Edited by T-Boneformatting
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OldSkool
That was my intent T-Bone, but Mike's rebuff (again) demonstrated he considers Wierwille above the laws of the land, above whats accepted as right, and even above clear scripture on the subjects of honesty, stealing, etc. So basically, according to Mike, God has contradicted his own Word and principles in order to give revelation to vic to steal pfal, and other works. Basically, God has had to lie, which scripture plainly states he cannot do. So either Mike is in error, or God needed to warp his own nature to tell vic to steal.
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T-Bone
I agree...and actually I came back online to revise my phrase "ignoring the whole fairy tale ploy" cuz I couldn't think of the logical fallacy term for putting wierwille's plagiarism in the same category as folks gathering food from a community tree - I think it's called association fallacy - but maybe some debate experts here could clarify it if I'm wrong
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waysider
Was the wild fig a "community tree"? I don't know. I'd like to have some non Way sources to verify. All we have at the moment is the word of VPW and K.C. Pillai. Maybe they are correct. I'd like to see it from some outside sources, though.
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So_crates
Where I'm lost, Waysider, is why we're accepting an orientalism, or custom, of the Middle East to explain behavior here.
We're not in the Middle East and their customs don't apply.
Is their somewhere in the bible where God commands the fig tree be a community tree?
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waysider
Mike is saying it's acceptable to plagiarize Biblical writers because there was an ancient custom that said anyone was free to eat of a fig tree. He said it was the "Peoples' Tree". First, we don't know if this was even a custom, as the only place I ever heard it taught was in The Way. And, as you noted, if the custom did exist, it's not clear why it would be relevant to modern society. As far as I know, there is no scriptural basis for this custom. If, indeed, the custom was authentic, it's still a false comparison, as it's attempting to equate an antiquated societal custom with the legality of modern plagiarism. Sort of an apples and figs comparison, if you will.
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OldSkool
Wait.....maybe we're not thinking deeply enough....
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