Good to see you stop by. I’d only like to address one paragraph of your post for now.
You wrote: “Mike lives in a reality of his own making.”
Oh PLEASE. If I lived in a reality of someone else's would THAT be better? Doesn’t everyone do both to some degree? Does this sound like a college Philosophy dialog? It does to me.
I carefully construct what I believe, and both positive and negative emotions are not trusted guidance in that careful construction. I saw many grads fly on positive emotions in the 70s, and I now see many grads fly on negative emotions.
I don’t deny the validity of the emotions; deny I do their guidance trustworthiness. It took me 11 years to go out WOW because I was not going to drop everything until I was sure it was worth it.
The mindset I adopted around 1998 and demonstrated here is not at all like the Way brain of the 1980s, but that’s pretty much how you look at it.
In a micro nutshell I research and embrace knowledge that explains (1) what went right? (2) what went wrong? and (3) what can we do about it?
The main difference in our worlds is you (most posters collectively) have a Pure Evil model to explain what went wrong. You, for the most part, deny the existence of what went right.
I spend most of my time focusing on what went right and what to do about it now. I do NOT live in a Pollyanna Pseudo Reality where I am insensitive to the hurts that happened. I was massively hurt in a lot of non-obvious ways by all that went wrong. I come here and constantly hear of the hurt of others. I do not ignore what went wrong. It’s just not my main focus.
***
You wrote: “I knew him back in the day, both in NY, and at HQ. He is a harmless, good-natured, gentle and kind soul imo.”
Thank you for that.It might bring some relief to others here to see that.
At times posters here can (understandably) think I am defending the attitudes and the system that caused such harm.Some have even thought I was building for myselfa harem of devotees, trying to duplicate the past problems.
I’m not trying to cause any harm here.
I realize there is a mission here to rescue people who genuinely are trapped in the latest TWI-4 Box, as well as refugees from TWI structures of previous decades.I realize that many conversations with me here are NOT really conversations in your eyes, but are “Influence Dialogs” aimed at those refugees.
Ralph, you were referring to this when you wrote: “Thanks to all who take the time to post in response to Mike's delusional propaganda. It protects newbies and lurkers from the insanity of wierwille drunken delusional, self-aggrandizing Bible fairy tales.”
One of the reasons I’m staying put in one thread is to make that job less complicated for you all.
Of course, you guys who are trying to influence and educate those coming out of TWI. I want to influence leaders of TWI who abandoned their true mission over 30 years ago.
But I also like to have conversations when possible.
***
You wrote: “But, he got stuck in a bad batch of kult koolaid because of some 14 year old hippies (who I also know) who were electrified by Jesus Christ as they knew him for the first time. They were in the midst of a genuine Christian revival that dictor paul was lucky enough to grab…”
What I experienced in 1971 on Long Island was definitely “a genuine Christian revival” and I did my best to maintain in my own life that genuineness, and I think I’ve succeeded. Sorry to hear you failed. Please don’t project your failure onto me.
Maybe if I had jumped headlong into the Corps and WOW then I too would have failed to maintain my Groovy Christian zeal and purity. There were plenty of other areas in which I did fail, and miserably, but this one I held tight onto.
What went right for me centered on the PFAL film class, and all else in the ministry was of questionable benefit. I focused on the film class, and then in 1998 I graduated to the writings.
I eventually did go WOW, but I was always suspicious of the Corps. I suppressed it and tried to work along as best as possible, but by 1984 I realized I was going to be systematically defying a lot of “orders” that a few drifting Reverends were handing out. In 3 or 4 years that deliberate defiance had to escalate to confrontation. I had no paycheck or Corps status to lose, so I spoke up.
It’s hard for you all to imagine a fellowship that is not encumbered by ANY of the TWI machinery, and it’s just PFAL books and magazine articles that set the tone. That’s the reality I’ve constructed for myself, and I think it’s safer than devotion to an activity centered around a long past manifestation of pure evil.
Sigh... Mike, you seem to overestimate yourself. I suppose that's not necessarily a bad thing, but really... how do you know you're not doing some serious projecting yourself?
Sigh... Mike, you seem to overestimate yourself. I suppose that's not necessarily a bad thing, but really... how do you know you're not doing some serious projecting yourself?
It happens. If you give me specifics, maybe I can fine tune my work some.
The main difference in our worlds is you (most posters collectively) have a Pure Evil model to explain what went wrong. You, for the most part, deny the existence of what went right.
Time and time again, I, and many other posters, have openly stated there were good times and good people mixed in with the bad. The take-away point here is that the good does not outweigh the bad. Same goes for the PFAL materials. There may be some good mixed in with the bad. But, there is just too much bad to make it a worthwhile pursuit.
The main difference in our worlds is you (most posters collectively) have a Pure Evil model to explain what went wrong. You, for the most part, deny the existence of what went right.
Quote
What went right for me centered on the PFAL film class, and all else in the ministry was of questionable benefit. I focused on the film class, and then in 1998 I graduated to the writings.
So essentially, if we were to buy your argument, the only thing that went right in the ministry was a class Saint Vic stole from someone else down to Johnny Jumpup, Maggie Muggins, and Snowball Pete (he couldn't even make up his own fictional names).
What went right for me centered on the PFAL film class, and all else in the ministry was of questionable benefit. I focused on the film class, and then in 1998 I graduated to the writings.
I eventually did go WOW, but I was always suspicious of the Corps. I suppressed it and tried to work along as best as possible, but by 1984 I realized I was going to be systematically defying a lot of “orders” that a few drifting Reverends were handing out. In 3 or 4 years that deliberate defiance had to escalate to confrontation. I had no paycheck or Corps status to lose, so I spoke up.
It’s hard for you all to imagine a fellowship that is not encumbered by ANY of the TWI machinery, and it’s just PFAL books and magazine articles that set the tone. That’s the reality I’ve constructed for myself, and I think it’s safer than devotion to an activity centered around a long past manifestation of pure evil.
Well......in a nutshell, there it is Mike.
In your own words, you've detailed "the reality" of your constructed ideology/idolatry. You centered on the pfal film class, eschewed all the workings of wierwille's ministry and shortcomings of cult leader and his followers........and locked-in-with-laser-focus to the generic/plagiarist writings.
When you find yourself in a hole..........keep digging.
Time and time again, I, and many other posters, have openly stated there were good times and good people mixed in with the bad. The take-away point here is that the good does not outweigh the bad. Same goes for the PFAL materials. There may be some good mixed in with the bad. But, there is just too much bad to make it a worthwhile pursuit.
There are many, many grads who never went into the Corps, never got caught up in the sin that seems now (with Me Too) to exist in all human organizations, and who drifted off with the gold that PFAL gave them. I personally know (or knew) a good twenty such grads who regard the good as far better than the bad.
I have come to view the damage in the ministry to be similar (not identical) to the casualties of a war. I'm thankful for those who put their lives on the line and worked hard in the ministry, and often got hurt in the mechanics of the war. Lots of people benefited from these sacrifices. I try to keep this in mind when dealing with the bitterness so many leaders have to deal with now.
So essentially, if we were to buy your argument, the only thing that went right in the ministry was a class Saint Vic stole from someone else down to Johnny Jumpup, Maggie Muggins, and Snowball Pete (he couldn't even make up his own fictional names).
The film class was pretty pure good; writings were the best good.
All else was questionable, meaning not pure, meaning containing problematic elements. Sometimes those elements exploded in the wrong; sometimes went pretty well.
The only thing worth going back to are the writings.
There are many, many grads who never went into the Corps, never got caught up in the sin that seems now (with Me Too) to exist in all human organizations, and who drifted off with the gold that PFAL gave them. I personally know (or knew) a good twenty such grads who regard the good as far better than the bad.
I have come to view the damage in the ministry to be similar (not identical) to the casualties of a war. I'm thankful for those who put their lives on the line and worked hard in the ministry, and often got hurt in the mechanics of the war. Lots of people benefited from these sacrifices. I try to keep this in mind when dealing with the bitterness so many leaders have to deal with now.
To continue your war metaphor, many of those leaders are experiencing bitterness because they were spys working for the enemy. Many were a disgrace to their uniform. Many committed treason by betraying their comrades in arms.
But, heck, let's forget about that, after all we still have the ideology that made it all possible, right?
The film class was pretty pure good; writings were the best good.
All else was questionable, meaning not pure, meaning containing problematic elements. Sometimes those elements exploded in the wrong; sometimes went pretty well.
The only thing worth going back to are the writings.
And the writings were a transcription of the class. Which, once again, was stolen from someone else.
To continue your war metaphor, many of those leaders are experiencing bitterness because they were spys working for the enemy. Many were a disgrace to their uniform. Many committed treason by betraying their comrades in arms.
But, heck, let's forget about that, after all we still have the ideology that made it all possible, right?
I've thought through this war metaphor often, but like all them, it does break down.
Here's a complication that the war metaphor can't handle: in TWI it was the case that ALL "committed treason by betraying their comrades in arms."
We ALL sinned and played the role of the devil's advocate AT TIMES. Some did this up more than others. But we ALL could get perfect forgiveness EVERY TIME from the Father, and many times we got complete forgiveness from our brothers and sisters. This kind of subtle switching of sides and forgiveness doesn't happen in a military war. We were in a spiritual war.
God owns His Word. If He gives revelation to a Kenyon, it still belongs to God.
BTW, God does not own error.
God gave a revelation to a Kenyon. God told VPW, "Go use that revelation of mine that I gave to Kenyon."
God also told us everything on earth is ours (the meek shall inherit the earth, remember?).
And just to cement the idea further, Psalms 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Again, does this give us the right to steal?
Quote
Not stolen.
We've already went through this several pages back, remember?
You never bothered to answer the question: If God owns his word, which makes it okay to steal others work, and God owns everything in the earth, then why is it okay to steal in one realm, but not the other? (I'll add the earth we'll all inherit and Psalms 115:16, as you seem to love moving goal posts)
I've thought through this war metaphor often, but like all them, it does break down.
Here's a complication that the war metaphor can't handle: in TWI it was the case that ALL "committed treason by betraying their comrades in arms."
Not all, I never betrayed anyone. So, your excuse falls flat right there.
57 minutes ago, Mike said:
We ALL sinned and played the role of the devil's advocate AT TIMES. Some did this up more than others. But we ALL could get perfect forgiveness EVERY TIME from the Father, and many times we got complete forgiveness from our brothers and sisters. This kind of subtle switching of sides and forgiveness doesn't happen in a military war. We were in a spiritual war.
Once again, you go over ground covered pages back, you forgive a thef for robbing your house, but that doesn't mean you leave the front door open.
Many a murder has been forgiven by the victim's family, but they went to jail all the same.
I've thought through this war metaphor often, but like all them, it does break down.
How about this metaphor...........
.....behind every secret door is another secret door. Unless you walk thru these doors, you'll never discover the inter-connecting knowledge of each secret let alone the mysteries of the wierwille-writings.
This is the model I have proposed here over and over for years. I submit it for your consideration.
I developed this model from the many comments (largely ignored) that VPW put into the tape and print record on this issue. I choose to believe these things he said about the revelations because he was so successful in helping people via the film class.
If you want to see this documentation, it is available. I'm not as fluent at finding it as I was ten years ago, so it may take a little time. (still searching for my Research Geek posts)
I used to post back then MANY such pieces of documentation quotes, but I'm trying to keep it lighter this time, and more conversational.
Not all, I never betrayed anyone. So, your excuse falls flat right there.
Once again, you go over ground covered pages back, you forgive a thef for robbing your house, but that doesn't mean you leave the front door open.
Many a murder has been forgiven by the victim's family, but they went to jail all the same.
It sounds to me like you are rejecting the PFAL taught idea that God, as original owner of all, gave it all to Adam, who then owned it. Then Adam, as owner gave it all to the adversary. Then Jesus Christ paid the price to buy it back. We await his redeeming of the purchased possession at this time. Practical ownership: still the adversary. Promised ownership: ours as we claim it through believing. Future ownership: God is all in all.
If you have a model different from the above, I could care less about it. Our ownership debate must take place within the above PFAL framework of ownership. If you don't want to accept those ground rules, then I must bow out of the debate.
My stand is that God owns the PFAL revelations and nothing was stolen. You are trifling yourself with trivialities in the 5-senses realm, and I am not interested in that.
This is the model I have proposed here over and over for years. I submit it for your consideration.
I developed this model from the many comments (largely ignored) that VPW put into the tape and print record on this issue. I choose to believe these things he said about the revelations because he was so successful in helping people via the film class.
If you want to see this documentation, it is available. I'm not as fluent at finding it as I was ten years ago, so it may take a little time. (still searching for my Research Geek posts)
I used to post back then MANY such pieces of documentation quotes, but I'm trying to keep it lighter this time, and more conversational.
...and just so I’m clear on your response- when you said
God told VPW, "Go use that revelation of mine that I gave to Kenyon."
and I asked if that is documented somewhere - from your response I gather that technically there is no documentation of wierwille actually saying those exact words or anything that is close to that - but rather your statement reflects something you have inferred from a perusal of select works as you developed your model.
God owns His Word. If He gives revelation to a Kenyon, it still belongs to God.
BTW, God does not own error.
God gave a revelation to a Kenyon. God told VPW, "Go use that revelation of mine that I gave to Kenyon."
Not stolen.
This is absolute nonsense. Even VPW knew the writings weren't up for grabs. Maybe that's why he, himself, registered copyrights on them before he could get caught.
edit: This idea presupposes that the writings in PFAL are a product of revelation. I have yet to see evidence to suggest they were.
I think I'm getting a bead on the crux of the whole stealing others work difficulty for Mike
When people here at GS reference plagerism, Mike, they are NOT, repeat NOT, refering to themes.
Romeo And Juliet and West Side Story have the same theme. Every yuletide some sitcom does a variation of the A Christmas Carol theme. Themes are not copyrighted and fair game for anyone wanting to use them.
However, where Saint Vic went off the rails was by copying other peoples work word-for-word. Those words are copyrighted and it is plagerism.
I've seen side by sides of others and Saint Vic's works. Someone would write sentences ABCD and Saint Vic would write exactly the same sentences BDAC.
If he had put the themes in his own words there would be no problem, but no00000000!, he had to steal the work word-for-word.
Think about it, if he had cited those works, word-for-word, he had stolen, he may have gained even more street cred as the person who put it all together. But, mores the pity, it was more important to steal other words.
It sounds to me like you are rejecting the PFAL taught idea that God, as original owner of all, gave it all to Adam, who then owned it. Then Adam, as owner gave it all to the adversary. Then Jesus Christ paid the price to buy it back. We await his redeeming of the purchased possession at this time. Practical ownership: still the adversary. Promised ownership: ours as we claim it through believing. Future ownership: God is all in all.
If you have a model different from the above, I could care less about it. Our ownership debate must take place within the above PFAL framework of ownership. If you don't want to accept those ground rules, then I must bow out of the debate.
This is like me telling you if you don't want to accept the ground rules of evil Saint Vic stealing others work, then bow out of the debate.
I would never do that. You know why? It would be conceding. It would be saying, I can't address the points he's making.
I have just as much right to present an alternate viewpoint as you do. And I will continue to do so.
What's wrong? I'm making headway so you have to silence me?
Quote
My stand is that God owns the PFAL revelations and nothing was stolen. You are trifling yourself with trivialities in the 5-senses realm, and I am not interested in that.
See the above post. A copy of an earlier post.
Let's see how many more trivialities we can find in the 5-senses realm.
Rape...that's in the 5-senses realm, do you think that's trivial?
Abuse..that's in the 5-senses realm, do you think that's trivial?
PLAF...that's in the 5-senses realm, do you think that's trivial?
The bible.. that's in the 5-senses realm, do you think that's trivial?
Saint Vic..,he was in the 5-senses realm, do tou think he was trivial?
Now that we've established that things in the 5-senses realm aren't so trivial, we're back to the original question: If God owns his word, which makes it okay to steal others work, and God owns everything in the earth, then why is it okay to steal in one realm, but not the other? (I'll add the earth we'll all inherit and Psalms 115:16, as you seem to love moving goal posts)
As I continue to read Mike’s post on this topic, I’m stunned at his level of dedication and commitment to an alcoholic, misogynist, delusional, serial rapist.
Mike, you can’t seperate the man’s actions, legacy, and words from the man. Sorry. The convicting, eyewitness evidence is overwhelming. He was a false prophet. He was an unconvicted felon.
I’m glad when I read something from an legitimately educated theologian, or for that matter scripture itself, that I no longer ask myself “What did VeePee or twi teach me about this 40 years ago”? Took me a while to get over it, but I did. Yeah. Really glad.
As I continue to read Mike’s post on this topic, I’m stunned at his level of dedication and commitment to an alcoholic, misogynist, delusional, serial rapist.
Mike, you can’t seperate the man’s actions, legacy, and words from the man. Sorry. The convicting, eyewitness evidence is overwhelming. He was a false prophet. He was an unconvicted felon.
JayDee:
Mike will never stop with his annoying, circular illogic, doublespeak, babble. He enjoys talking about HIMSELF and dictor paul, his MOG of choice. He's always got another post of Unabomber quality ready to go. I appreciate you, and Socrates speaking logical counterpoint. But, debating with the willfully insane is a profoundly futile effort. He'll go on posting this delusional, deranged gibberish as long as there is a response. It's like a cat toying with a mouse. Again, I appreciate your logical counterpoint, but insanity owns NO logic, no shame, and no authentic humility. Good luck, and.................peace.
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
skyrider
Thanks guys….. life is good, all is well. It’s good to see GSC continuing to sound the alarm as we move into the 2023 new year. Even though twi tries to guilt advanced class grads and corps to *
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Rocky
Sigh... Mike, you seem to overestimate yourself. I suppose that's not necessarily a bad thing, but really... how do you know you're not doing some serious projecting yourself?
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Mike
It happens. If you give me specifics, maybe I can fine tune my work some.
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waysider
Time and time again, I, and many other posters, have openly stated there were good times and good people mixed in with the bad. The take-away point here is that the good does not outweigh the bad. Same goes for the PFAL materials. There may be some good mixed in with the bad. But, there is just too much bad to make it a worthwhile pursuit.
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So_crates
So essentially, if we were to buy your argument, the only thing that went right in the ministry was a class Saint Vic stole from someone else down to Johnny Jumpup, Maggie Muggins, and Snowball Pete (he couldn't even make up his own fictional names).
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skyrider
Well......in a nutshell, there it is Mike.
In your own words, you've detailed "the reality" of your constructed ideology/idolatry. You centered on the pfal film class, eschewed all the workings of wierwille's ministry and shortcomings of cult leader and his followers........and locked-in-with-laser-focus to the generic/plagiarist writings.
When you find yourself in a hole..........keep digging.
.
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Mike
There are many, many grads who never went into the Corps, never got caught up in the sin that seems now (with Me Too) to exist in all human organizations, and who drifted off with the gold that PFAL gave them. I personally know (or knew) a good twenty such grads who regard the good as far better than the bad.
I have come to view the damage in the ministry to be similar (not identical) to the casualties of a war. I'm thankful for those who put their lives on the line and worked hard in the ministry, and often got hurt in the mechanics of the war. Lots of people benefited from these sacrifices. I try to keep this in mind when dealing with the bitterness so many leaders have to deal with now.
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Mike
The film class was pretty pure good; writings were the best good.
All else was questionable, meaning not pure, meaning containing problematic elements. Sometimes those elements exploded in the wrong; sometimes went pretty well.
The only thing worth going back to are the writings.
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So_crates
To continue your war metaphor, many of those leaders are experiencing bitterness because they were spys working for the enemy. Many were a disgrace to their uniform. Many committed treason by betraying their comrades in arms.
But, heck, let's forget about that, after all we still have the ideology that made it all possible, right?
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So_crates
And the writings were a transcription of the class. Which, once again, was stolen from someone else.
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Mike
I've thought through this war metaphor often, but like all them, it does break down.
Here's a complication that the war metaphor can't handle: in TWI it was the case that ALL "committed treason by betraying their comrades in arms."
We ALL sinned and played the role of the devil's advocate AT TIMES. Some did this up more than others. But we ALL could get perfect forgiveness EVERY TIME from the Father, and many times we got complete forgiveness from our brothers and sisters. This kind of subtle switching of sides and forgiveness doesn't happen in a military war. We were in a spiritual war.
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Mike
Not stolen.
God owns His Word. If He gives revelation to a Kenyon, it still belongs to God.
BTW, God does not own error.
God gave a revelation to a Kenyon. God told VPW, "Go use that revelation of mine that I gave to Kenyon."
Not stolen.
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T-Bone
Is that documented somewhere?
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So_crates
God also told us everything on earth is ours (the meek shall inherit the earth, remember?).
And just to cement the idea further, Psalms 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Again, does this give us the right to steal?
We've already went through this several pages back, remember?
You never bothered to answer the question: If God owns his word, which makes it okay to steal others work, and God owns everything in the earth, then why is it okay to steal in one realm, but not the other? (I'll add the earth we'll all inherit and Psalms 115:16, as you seem to love moving goal posts)
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So_crates
Not all, I never betrayed anyone. So, your excuse falls flat right there.
Once again, you go over ground covered pages back, you forgive a thef for robbing your house, but that doesn't mean you leave the front door open.
Many a murder has been forgiven by the victim's family, but they went to jail all the same.
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skyrider
How about this metaphor...........
.....behind every secret door is another secret door. Unless you walk thru these doors, you'll never discover the inter-connecting knowledge of each secret let alone the mysteries of the wierwille-writings.
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Mike
This is the model I have proposed here over and over for years. I submit it for your consideration.
I developed this model from the many comments (largely ignored) that VPW put into the tape and print record on this issue. I choose to believe these things he said about the revelations because he was so successful in helping people via the film class.
If you want to see this documentation, it is available. I'm not as fluent at finding it as I was ten years ago, so it may take a little time. (still searching for my Research Geek posts)
I used to post back then MANY such pieces of documentation quotes, but I'm trying to keep it lighter this time, and more conversational.
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Mike
It sounds to me like you are rejecting the PFAL taught idea that God, as original owner of all, gave it all to Adam, who then owned it. Then Adam, as owner gave it all to the adversary. Then Jesus Christ paid the price to buy it back. We await his redeeming of the purchased possession at this time. Practical ownership: still the adversary. Promised ownership: ours as we claim it through believing. Future ownership: God is all in all.
If you have a model different from the above, I could care less about it. Our ownership debate must take place within the above PFAL framework of ownership. If you don't want to accept those ground rules, then I must bow out of the debate.
My stand is that God owns the PFAL revelations and nothing was stolen. You are trifling yourself with trivialities in the 5-senses realm, and I am not interested in that.
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T-Bone
...and just so I’m clear on your response- when you said
God told VPW, "Go use that revelation of mine that I gave to Kenyon."
and I asked if that is documented somewhere - from your response I gather that technically there is no documentation of wierwille actually saying those exact words or anything that is close to that - but rather your statement reflects something you have inferred from a perusal of select works as you developed your model.
Do I have that right?
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waysider
This is absolute nonsense. Even VPW knew the writings weren't up for grabs. Maybe that's why he, himself, registered copyrights on them before he could get caught.
edit: This idea presupposes that the writings in PFAL are a product of revelation. I have yet to see evidence to suggest they were.
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So_crates
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So_crates
This is like me telling you if you don't want to accept the ground rules of evil Saint Vic stealing others work, then bow out of the debate.
I would never do that. You know why? It would be conceding. It would be saying, I can't address the points he's making.
I have just as much right to present an alternate viewpoint as you do. And I will continue to do so.
What's wrong? I'm making headway so you have to silence me?
See the above post. A copy of an earlier post.
Let's see how many more trivialities we can find in the 5-senses realm.
Rape...that's in the 5-senses realm, do you think that's trivial?
Abuse..that's in the 5-senses realm, do you think that's trivial?
PLAF...that's in the 5-senses realm, do you think that's trivial?
The bible.. that's in the 5-senses realm, do you think that's trivial?
Saint Vic..,he was in the 5-senses realm, do tou think he was trivial?
Now that we've established that things in the 5-senses realm aren't so trivial, we're back to the original question: If God owns his word, which makes it okay to steal others work, and God owns everything in the earth, then why is it okay to steal in one realm, but not the other? (I'll add the earth we'll all inherit and Psalms 115:16, as you seem to love moving goal posts)
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JayDee
As I continue to read Mike’s post on this topic, I’m stunned at his level of dedication and commitment to an alcoholic, misogynist, delusional, serial rapist.
Mike, you can’t seperate the man’s actions, legacy, and words from the man. Sorry. The convicting, eyewitness evidence is overwhelming. He was a false prophet. He was an unconvicted felon.
I’m glad when I read something from an legitimately educated theologian, or for that matter scripture itself, that I no longer ask myself “What did VeePee or twi teach me about this 40 years ago”? Took me a while to get over it, but I did. Yeah. Really glad.
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DontWorryBeHappy
JayDee:
Mike will never stop with his annoying, circular illogic, doublespeak, babble. He enjoys talking about HIMSELF and dictor paul, his MOG of choice. He's always got another post of Unabomber quality ready to go. I appreciate you, and Socrates speaking logical counterpoint. But, debating with the willfully insane is a profoundly futile effort. He'll go on posting this delusional, deranged gibberish as long as there is a response. It's like a cat toying with a mouse. Again, I appreciate your logical counterpoint, but insanity owns NO logic, no shame, and no authentic humility. Good luck, and.................peace.
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Twinky
There's just no arguing or reasoning with someone who's totally convinced he's right.
Available in other translations here: http://biblehub.com/proverbs/26-4.htm
Available in other translations here: https://www.biblestudytools.com/proverbs/13-20-compare.html
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