I was not able to locate the original post by Research geek which Mike mentioned. All I find are pastes by Mike of the post where it is described as from October 4. 2002 in a thread titled "Why Lie?" I cannot find that thread nor the actual post and context by Research Geek.
Thank you! Unfortunately I did not save that original Oct 4th thread.
I was not able to locate the original post by Research geek which Mike mentioned. All I find are pastes by Mike of the post where it is described as from October 4. 2002 in a thread titled "Why Lie?" I cannot find that thread nor the actual post and context by Research Geek.
I need to learn how to search better here.
Modgellan, might you give us that text I had pasted?
You know if I had misrepresented Research Geek's post in my pastes in any way everyone would have piled on top of me.
Then, if we accept the PLAF collaterals are God-breathe, then them being transcribed means it went from God's mouth to Saint Vic's ear, from Saint Vic's mouth to the transcriptionist's ear, then onto paper. So were is the room for glaring errors in PLAF?
And if it was Saint Vic's misunderstanding, then he's not very good at recieving revelation. Which leads one to ask, how many other revelations has he misunderstood?
These are good points, if the process happened that way, but it didn't.
What you are describing here is what I call "divine dictation." If you read my recent posts on this, I have often pointed out how VPW insisted that the process was NOT divine dictation.
It started verbally in discussions, then went to sermons, then to recorded sermon, then to transcripts, then to editing by a team of people with VPW supervising every step.
The audience his booklets were aimed at were not scholars, but farmers and small towns folk. Scholarly citations would clutter the books up in those days. We're talking 3 years before the film class. The ministry was micro sized then.
The ministry was very unconventional back then, not conventional as you demand. I'm very glad they did the citations back then simple like that. That's what I needed in 1971. It wasn't a scholarly set of needs we had in that fellowship. My first teacher at fellowship was 17 years old. The 3 hippie chicks that witnessed to me were 14 years old. Scholarly citations were ENTIRELY out of place FOR US and BACK THEN.
Source citations are to protect and support the author and are not at all dependent on the target market. Btw, 14-year old girls aren't "hippie chicks." They are adolescents. Do you even read what you post?
Source citations are to protect and support the author and are not at all dependent on the target market. Btw, 14-year old girls aren't "hippie chicks." They are adolescents. Do you even read what you post?
That was my point. They weren't scholars, they were far from it. They were smart, though, and very aggressive at witnessing. There were only 3 people in that fellowship over 21. It was packed with High School and Jr High. kids. They did not need scholarly citations.
Btw, 14-year old girls aren't "hippie chicks." They are adolescents. Do you even read what you post?
I was an amateur historian of the Sixties for 10 years and to the point that I wrote on it and spoke on it at Open Mics for 5 years. I can assure you that the 1967 Summer of Love in San Francisco was largely fueled by 14 year old girls. These 3 girls that witnessed to me were more experienced in all things Hippie than me, including acid. I can assure you that all of my relationships with Way women have been honorable, and I always treated them like cherished sisters. One of these 3 bona fide hippie chicks is friends with me on FB today.
That was my point. They weren't scholars, they were far from it. They were smart, though, and very aggressive at witnessing. There were only 3 people in that fellowship over 21. It was packed with High School and Jr High. kids. They did not need scholarly citations.
t
You seem not to have gotten my point. "They weren't scholars..." Well THEY weren't the authors either. I never suggested there was anything sexual about your relationship with the 14-year old adolescent girls who witnessed to you.
Both of the comments you posted subsequent to my previous comment both quoted me AND your responses seemed very oddly to not be related to my quotes you included.
You seem not to have gotten my point. "They weren't scholars..." Well THEY weren't the authors either. I never suggested there was anything sexual about your relationship with the 14-year old adolescent girls who witnessed to you.
Both of the comments you posted subsequent to my previous comment both quoted me AND your responses seemed very oddly to not be related to my quotes you included.
I think that he PROPERLY paid no attention to the authors as he was ministering to his flock.
It was an informal, casual, small setup. He did cite his sources for the more ambitious of his students in the unconventional ways I have shown.
I think you are superimposing the large ministry of the 1980s on top of the tiny ministry of the 1950s. If the ministry had been very large back in the 50s, then I think you have a point. That point was respected by VPW as the ministry DID get huge, and he gradually brought in many more scholarly citations in the late 70s and 80s.
I think that he PROPERLY paid no attention to the authors as he was ministering to his flock.
It was an informal, casual, small setup. He did cite his sources for the more ambitious of his students in the unconventional ways I have shown.
I think you are superimposing the large ministry of the 1980s on top of the tiny ministry of the 1950s. If the ministry had been very large back in the 50s, then I think you have a point. That point was respected by VPW as the ministry DID get huge, and he gradually brought in many more scholarly citations in the late 70s and 80s.
It really doesn't matter what you "think", much as it doesn't matter what you "think" about murder or bank robbery. Plagiarism is unethical and against the law. Period.
No, his citations were not "unconventional", they were nonexistent. Dropping a few names to make your self appear to be in good company is in no way a substitute for proper citation.
In your last paragraph you are conflating various phases of the ministry to make it appear the unethical behavior is excusable. It's not.
I think that he PROPERLY paid no attention to the authors as he was ministering to his flock.
It was an informal, casual, small setup. He did cite his sources for the more ambitious of his students in the unconventional ways I have shown.
I think you are superimposing the large ministry of the 1980s on top of the tiny ministry of the 1950s. If the ministry had been very large back in the 50s, then I think you have a point. That point was respected by VPW as the ministry DID get huge, and he gradually brought in many more scholarly citations in the late 70s and 80s.
Well... just yesterday, taxidev mentioned that JCING didn't have a bibliography. That book was published as the cult was growing rapidly. Nevertheless, I don't accept your assertion that when dictor's ministry was small he had no obligation to cite his sources.
You simply did not understand what they meant. Let me try to translate.
Oh, i understand perfectly well what they meant. I also understand what your saying. Now ask yourself if you understand anything anyone else has said. Im wondering if your not just trolling for fun at this point because much of what you explained regarding research is laughable.
Surely, God would have showed vpw this as well. And im far from a scholar and this post danm sure is no schorlarly work, but notice how its proper to cite a source so the website is credited, oh, and the article author cited their sources. Neither me nor the site author claimed God gave the information by revelation, or we dug it up by years of research while eating only grapes. That would be lying now wouldnt it? And lying is wrong.
That was my point. They weren't scholars, they were far from it. They were smart, though, and very aggressive at witnessing. There were only 3 people in that fellowship over 21. It was packed with High School and Jr High. kids. They did not need scholarly citations.
t
Mike, why on earth would adults want to attend meetings with people under 21? I know I wouldn't. BTW, I am not talking about people who want to "mess" with underage kids.
The audience his booklets were aimed at were not scholars, but farmers and small towns folk. Scholarly citations would clutter the books up in those days.
Clutter up the book?
Give me a break.
Do you know MLA? It all goes in the back of the book, organized by authors name. Parenthetical prompts, in the text, such as (SO_CRATES 2018), refer you to the back of the book. So were all this clutter your talking about? You mean, back then people were unable to skip over parenthesis?
That's a new one. "Back in my day, people didn't want to cite sources of information because they didn't know how to skip over parenthesis."
Nobody has to read them if the don't want to.
I've read secular, non-scholarly books that use MLA.
These are good points, if the process happened that way, but it didn't.
What you are describing here is what I call "divine dictation." If you read my recent posts on this, I have often pointed out how VPW insisted that the process was NOT divine dictation.
It started verbally in discussions, then went to sermons, then to recorded sermon, then to transcripts, then to editing by a team of people with VPW supervising every step.
Not divine dictation; not divine transcription.
All this describes divine dictation. What difference does it make whether it was dictated directly or a recorded sermon?
As you said, Saint Vic supervised every step.
Was the Christ in him asleep at the switch when he read the glaring errors in PLAF and ignored him? I thought he operated all nine all the time.
It's a good thing this site doesn't have "smell-o-vision". The stench of bull crap would be overwhelming.
hmmmm...how about a scratch-and-sniff feature - this way folks have the option to do some olfactory research if they want to...you just “download” the app and then sWIPE to the left to get a whiff .
You simply did not understand what they meant. Let me try to translate.
There are three main types of research VPW taught us about, but most of ue (ME INCLUDED) were not sharp enough to get it. He did put it all in the record, though, so we can recover it.
The first type of research is OBTAINING the Word. During the period of time before October 1942, VPW’s scholarly researchbrought him to the correct conclusion that the Word was buried, and that ALL existing ancient and modern Biblical texts were merely tattered remnants of the irrecoverable originals, and entirely DEVOID OF AUTHORITY.
This correct conclusion of VPW’s in 1942 has been a major thesis of mine here, and I can back it up profusely.
The reaction VPW had was to quit, and to inform the Father that he needed something solid to continue in the ministry. God accommodated him and showed him how to OBTAIN the Word through 5-senses research where possible, and then receiving revelation when necessary.
That was the kind of research VPW did.
For the second type of research VPW also encouraged us to so SIMILARLY (but not identical) where a small few (like Walter) would assist him doing many similar 5-senses research tasks, minus the main revelation guidance. VPW also encouraged the rest of us grads to do so SIMILARLY with the 5-senses research in order to gain a trust in the ministry and in the OBTAINING process that was going on.
The more Word that was obtained each year meant more put into book and magazine form.
The third type of research VPW also encouraged to do was to apply all the same 5-senses techniques, but to turn them on the collaterals of book and magazine form. This encouragement started as the OBTAINING process started to wrap up. In 1979 VPW strongly demanded that all Advanced Class grads to master RHST, and on the tape it's obvious that he was very unhappy that NONE of them had done it yet. By 1985 in his last words to us he twice pointed to written PFAL as what all grads need to master, ESPECIALLY top leadership.
The OBTAINING type of research is what we were told was pretty much done as that project came closer to a successful conclusion in 1985.
Mike, I'm reading through the above and I must say, you sound like you could be the perfect Way International follower.
I mean you worship VPW. To the point you are even making up your own words and process about Biblical research. And wrapping it up with rhetoric (major thesis). You refuse to consider the fruit of the man's life with respect to how he actually lived as opposed to what he taught. And you are like his greatest spokesman, even greater than his own wife and children.
You simply did not understand what they meant. Let me try to translate.
There are three main types of research VPW taught us about, but most of ue (ME INCLUDED) were not sharp enough to get it. He did put it all in the record, though, so we can recover it.
The first type of research is OBTAINING the Word. During the period of time before October 1942, VPW’s scholarly researchbrought him to the correct conclusion that the Word was buried, and that ALL existing ancient and modern Biblical texts were merely tattered remnants of the irrecoverable originals, and entirely DEVOID OF AUTHORITY.
This correct conclusion of VPW’s in 1942 has been a major thesis of mine here, and I can back it up profusely.
The reaction VPW had was to quit, and to inform the Father that he needed something solid to continue in the ministry. God accommodated him and showed him how to OBTAIN the Word through 5-senses research where possible, and then receiving revelation when necessary.
That was the kind of research VPW did.
You mean obtain someone elses work to steal or tell the research department what he believes to passage means and it was the research departments job to find the verses to back it up. Both fly in the face of any manner of scientific method.
You simply did not understand what they meant. Let me try to translate.
There are three main types of research VPW taught us about, but most of ue (ME INCLUDED) were not sharp enough to get it. He did put it all in the record, though, so we can recover it.
The first type of research is OBTAINING the Word. During the period of time before October 1942, VPW’s scholarly researchbrought him to the correct conclusion that the Word was buried, and that ALL existing ancient and modern Biblical texts were merely tattered remnants of the irrecoverable originals, and entirely DEVOID OF AUTHORITY.
This correct conclusion of VPW’s in 1942 has been a major thesis of mine here, and I can back it up profusely.
The reaction VPW had was to quit, and to inform the Father that he needed something solid to continue in the ministry. God accommodated him and showed him how to OBTAIN the Word through 5-senses research where possible, and then receiving revelation when necessary.
That was the kind of research VPW did.
For the second type of research VPW also encouraged us to so SIMILARLY (but not identical) where a small few (like Walter) would assist him doing many similar 5-senses research tasks, minus the main revelation guidance. VPW also encouraged the rest of us grads to do so SIMILARLY with the 5-senses research in order to gain a trust in the ministry and in the OBTAINING process that was going on.
The more Word that was obtained each year meant more put into book and magazine form.
The third type of research VPW also encouraged to do was to apply all the same 5-senses techniques, but to turn them on the collaterals of book and magazine form. This encouragement started as the OBTAINING process started to wrap up. In 1979 VPW strongly demanded that all Advanced Class grads to master RHST, and on the tape it's obvious that he was very unhappy that NONE of them had done it yet. By 1985 in his last words to us he twice pointed to written PFAL as what all grads need to master, ESPECIALLY top leadership.
The OBTAINING type of research is what we were told was pretty much done as that project came closer to a successful conclusion in 1985.
What an amazing way to keep the propaganda going ... with more propaganda! With posts like these, you keep yourself and others from climbing outside the TWI box and learning new things, like what research really means. Your spouting off about VP's so-called research would be funny if it weren't for the fact that it shows how some people are still very delusional when it comes to understanding what VPW did. To me, this is a sad reminder of the damage he caused.
Penworks.
P.s. My real name is Charlene Edge and my personal story of being on the research team in The Way can be found in my book, Undertow.
Well put Penworks! I've been waiting for a comment from you! You are so good at courteously stating the obvious about TWIt propaganda as spread by delusional wierwille sycophants. If anyone here at GSC is experientially and intellectually qualified to accurately review and critique dictor's "research" principles and "techniques" (private interpretation by drambuie revelation) from a firsthand POV, it is you! We've written tons here regarding the actual FACTS of dictor's "research" principles, how "his" books were actually put together, what the sourcing was, and how it was forced to be handled professionally and academically as the highly educated linguists, and textual critics began arriving in the research dept. as they finished their REAL degrees at accredited universities of international repute. Dic's sloppy, vapid, anti-intellectual, baseline provided nothing of genuine value in the field of textual criticism or MS research. It was ALL plagiarized from the sources repeatedly documented here at the GSC. ALL OF IT!
I try not to write much on Mike threads, because it's like debating the reality of a My Little Pony episode, or a particularly disturbing episode of Criminal Minds, where the unsub is disconcertingly weird. If looked at substantively, what he says is like reading a bad translation of C.S. Lewis' The Lion, the Witch and The Wardrobe. It is increasingly annoying with each post. So, rather than posting a sarcastic, cynical NYer 'tude comment, I just read and see how others respond. After 15 years, I have finally concluded that Mike is totally meshuggene with his verkackte wierwille-worship. That's a Yiddish way of saying it nicely.
Thanks to all who take the time to post in response to Mike's delusional propaganda. It protects newbies and lurkers from the insanity of wierwille drunken delusional, self-aggrandizing Bible fairy tales. Mike lives in a reality of his own making. I knew him back in the day, both in NY, and at HQ. He is a harmless, good-natured, gentle and kind soul imo. But, he got stuck in a bad batch of kult koolaid because of some 14 year old hippies (who I also know) who were electrified by Jesus Christ as they knew him for the first time. They were in the midst of a genuine Christian revival that dictor paul was lucky enough to grab a piece of and make his P.T. Barnum fortune, and service the needs of his perverted sexual compulsions. They escaped eventually. Mike loves it in the briar patch with the tares. He's happy and comfortable in his delusions. He is a physical threat to no one. He is just a lost pilgrim on the dpw bullshit road who loves the journey to nowhere. Not even Narnia. Peace Mike.
What an amazing way to keep the propaganda going ... with more propaganda! With posts like these, you keep yourself and others from climbing outside the TWI box and learning new things, like what research really means. Your spouting off about VP's so-called research would be funny if it weren't for the fact that it shows how some people are still very delusional when it comes to understanding what VPW did. To me, this is a sad reminder of the damage he caused.
Penworks.
P.s. My real name is Charlene Edge and my personal story of being on the research team in The Way can be found in my book, Undertow.
Hi Charlene,
We’ve chatted a little here a few years ago, and we knew each other only by face back in the Groovy Rye days, as well as HQ. As time permits I’ll have to check out your book. I do respect your skills.
What you say is true, that I am keeping myself within a very contained world view. This is very deliberate on my part, but you are wrong in your supposition that I fail to learn and expand.
My Way Box is a lot different from yours. There are similarities, though, and I’d like to explore them. Where can I get your book?
See, I just came out of my customized Way Box via the secret back door to take in information contrary to my deliberately chosen world view. I did this same thing ALWAYS in the 1970. while you were practicing the opposite technique of learning, and staying inside your Way Box. Did your box have a secret back door back then?
In the 70s I’d go witnessing about JCNG (even before the book was written) to ministers of conventional churches JUST to get a thorough overview. I wanted to be VERY sure about the Trinity. Sometimes I was in tears driving home, because they had studied their position well. It was very hard to get a rounded spiritual education back then. No other grads would join me in these endeavors.
I made my deliberate decisions back then to follow ideas that proved out to be solid, not the latest bandwagon issues coming down from leadership. I saw many WaYBoxed grads follow their emotions, do very blittle research on their own, and fall into leadership worship.
If you’ve been reading my recent posts here, I’ve dropped many comments that show I’ve been educating myself in many surprising ways all along, still am, and my deliberate decision to stay within the city walls God has provided me is an intelligent one.What I post I can back up, and can show it is more consistent and more commplete than most posters here, and maybe even yours.
All that I posted about the 3 kinds of research above is correct, and I can post the places where we were taught it. It just didn’t quite all sink in for us all back then, and we forgot a lot. I search the records to refresh my understanding of what we were taught. It’s much better than memory.
I only arrived at my present world viewin 1998. It’s a lot different than how I thought in the 70s and 80s. I those days I vaguely thought there were some sections of the 1968 film class that were either God-breathed or “straight prophesy” but I didn’t know how to find where each such section would begin and then end. It never occurred to me that it was just an introduction to the printed publications.
My new 20 year old customized Way Box is tight and useful. I fine tune it daily.
We’ve chatted a little here a few years ago, and we knew each other only by face back in the Groovy Rye days, as well as HQ. As time permits I’ll have to check out your book. I do respect your skills.
What you say is true, that I am keeping myself within a very contained world view. This is very deliberate on my part, but you are wrong in your supposition that I fail to learn and expand.
My Way Box is a lot different from yours. There are similarities, though, and I’d like to explore them. Where can I get your book?
See, I just came out of my customized Way Box via the secret back door to take in information contrary to my deliberately chosen world view. I did this same thing ALWAYS in the 1970. while you were practicing the opposite technique of learning, and staying inside your Way Box. Did your box have a secret back door back then?
In the 70s I’d go witnessing about JCNG (even before the book was written) to ministers of conventional churches JUST to get a thorough overview. I wanted to be VERY sure about the Trinity. Sometimes I was in tears driving home, because they had studied their position well. It was very hard to get a rounded spiritual education back then. No other grads would join me in these endeavors.
I made my deliberate decisions back then to follow ideas that proved out to be solid, not the latest bandwagon issues coming down from leadership. I saw many WaYBoxed grads follow their emotions, do very blittle research on their own, and fall into leadership worship.
If you’ve been reading my recent posts here, I’ve dropped many comments that show I’ve been educating myself in many surprising ways all along, still am, and my deliberate decision to stay within the city walls God has provided me is an intelligent one.What I post I can back up, and can show it is more consistent and more commplete than most posters here, and maybe even yours.
All that I posted about the 3 kinds of research above is correct, and I can post the places where we were taught it. It just didn’t quite all sink in for us all back then, and we forgot a lot. I search the records to refresh my understanding of what we were taught. It’s much better than memory.
I only arrived at my present world viewin 1998. It’s a lot different than how I thought in the 70s and 80s. I those days I vaguely thought there were some sections of the 1968 film class that were either God-breathed or “straight prophesy” but I didn’t know how to find where each such section would begin and then end. It never occurred to me that it was just an introduction to the printed publications.
My new 20 year old customized Way Box is tight and useful. I fine tune it daily.
Undertow is at Amazon and Barnes and Noble.
Peace.
14 hours ago, Mike said:
You simply did not understand what they meant. Let me try to translate.
There are three main types of research VPW taught us about, but most of ue (ME INCLUDED) were not sharp enough to get it. He did put it all in the record, though, so we can recover it.
The first type of research is OBTAINING the Word. During the period of time before October 1942, VPW’s scholarly researchbrought him to the correct conclusion that the Word was buried, and that ALL existing ancient and modern Biblical texts were merely tattered remnants of the irrecoverable originals, and entirely DEVOID OF AUTHORITY.
This correct conclusion of VPW’s in 1942 has been a major thesis of mine here, and I can back it up profusely.
The reaction VPW had was to quit, and to inform the Father that he needed something solid to continue in the ministry. God accommodated him and showed him how to OBTAIN the Word through 5-senses research where possible, and then receiving revelation when necessary.
That was the kind of research VPW did.
For the second type of research VPW also encouraged us to so SIMILARLY (but not identical) where a small few (like Walter) would assist him doing many similar 5-senses research tasks, minus the main revelation guidance. VPW also encouraged the rest of us grads to do so SIMILARLY with the 5-senses research in order to gain a trust in the ministry and in the OBTAINING process that was going on.
The more Word that was obtained each year meant more put into book and magazine form.
The third type of research VPW also encouraged to do was to apply all the same 5-senses techniques, but to turn them on the collaterals of book and magazine form. This encouragement started as the OBTAINING process started to wrap up. In 1979 VPW strongly demanded that all Advanced Class grads to master RHST, and on the tape it's obvious that he was very unhappy that NONE of them had done it yet. By 1985 in his last words to us he twice pointed to written PFAL as what all grads need to master, ESPECIALLY top leadership.
The OBTAINING type of research is what we were told was pretty much done as that project came closer to a successful conclusion in 1985.
What an amazing way to keep the propaganda going ... with more propaganda! With posts like these, you keep yourself and others from climbing outside the TWI box and learning new things, like what research really means. Your spouting off about VP's so-called research would be funny if it weren't for the fact that it shows how some people are still very delusional when it comes to understanding what VPW did. To me, this is a sad reminder of the damage he caused.
Penworks.
P.s. My real name is Charlene Edge and my personal story of being on the research team in The Way can be found in my book, Undertow.
You mean obtain someone elses work to steal or tell the research department what he believes to passage means and it was the research departments job to find the verses to back it up. Both fly in the face of any manner of scientific method.
I reject "obtain someone elses work to steal"
I accept "tell the research department what he believes to passage means and it was the research departments job to find the verses to back it up."
You are also right about this not being like the scientific method. It's not supposed to be.
This kind of research is how a college professor writes a book with grad students assisting. The thesis is the professor's only. The grad students are assisting only, but gaining experienc e for when they conduct their own research. This is a time honored tradition in academia. It's well known that with many academic books the actual dog work and most writing is done by the grad students and the OFTEN get no credit. The thesis of the book is the sole property of the professor. This is the way it was in the 1960s. It may havbe changed some.
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skyrider
Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of t
T-Bone
After thinking about one poster’s recent attempt at revising history...or was it creative writing....I dunno - whatever the he11 you want to call his perspective on PFAL ‘77 - - I thought I’d give it
skyrider
Thanks guys….. life is good, all is well. It’s good to see GSC continuing to sound the alarm as we move into the 2023 new year. Even though twi tries to guilt advanced class grads and corps to *
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Mike
Thank you! Unfortunately I did not save that original Oct 4th thread.
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Mike
I need to learn how to search better here.
Modgellan, might you give us that text I had pasted?
You know if I had misrepresented Research Geek's post in my pastes in any way everyone would have piled on top of me.
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Mike
These are good points, if the process happened that way, but it didn't.
What you are describing here is what I call "divine dictation." If you read my recent posts on this, I have often pointed out how VPW insisted that the process was NOT divine dictation.
It started verbally in discussions, then went to sermons, then to recorded sermon, then to transcripts, then to editing by a team of people with VPW supervising every step.
Not divine dictation; not divine transcription.
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Rocky
Source citations are to protect and support the author and are not at all dependent on the target market. Btw, 14-year old girls aren't "hippie chicks." They are adolescents. Do you even read what you post?
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Mike
That was my point. They weren't scholars, they were far from it. They were smart, though, and very aggressive at witnessing. There were only 3 people in that fellowship over 21. It was packed with High School and Jr High. kids. They did not need scholarly citations.
t
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Mike
I was an amateur historian of the Sixties for 10 years and to the point that I wrote on it and spoke on it at Open Mics for 5 years. I can assure you that the 1967 Summer of Love in San Francisco was largely fueled by 14 year old girls. These 3 girls that witnessed to me were more experienced in all things Hippie than me, including acid. I can assure you that all of my relationships with Way women have been honorable, and I always treated them like cherished sisters. One of these 3 bona fide hippie chicks is friends with me on FB today.
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Rocky
You seem not to have gotten my point. "They weren't scholars..." Well THEY weren't the authors either. I never suggested there was anything sexual about your relationship with the 14-year old adolescent girls who witnessed to you.
Both of the comments you posted subsequent to my previous comment both quoted me AND your responses seemed very oddly to not be related to my quotes you included.
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waysider
It's a good thing this site doesn't have "smell-o-vision". The stench of bull crap would be overwhelming.
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Mike
I think that he PROPERLY paid no attention to the authors as he was ministering to his flock.
It was an informal, casual, small setup. He did cite his sources for the more ambitious of his students in the unconventional ways I have shown.
I think you are superimposing the large ministry of the 1980s on top of the tiny ministry of the 1950s. If the ministry had been very large back in the 50s, then I think you have a point. That point was respected by VPW as the ministry DID get huge, and he gradually brought in many more scholarly citations in the late 70s and 80s.
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waysider
It really doesn't matter what you "think", much as it doesn't matter what you "think" about murder or bank robbery. Plagiarism is unethical and against the law. Period.
No, his citations were not "unconventional", they were nonexistent. Dropping a few names to make your self appear to be in good company is in no way a substitute for proper citation.
In your last paragraph you are conflating various phases of the ministry to make it appear the unethical behavior is excusable. It's not.
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Rocky
Well... just yesterday, taxidev mentioned that JCING didn't have a bibliography. That book was published as the cult was growing rapidly. Nevertheless, I don't accept your assertion that when dictor's ministry was small he had no obligation to cite his sources.
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OldSkool
Oh, i understand perfectly well what they meant. I also understand what your saying. Now ask yourself if you understand anything anyone else has said. Im wondering if your not just trolling for fun at this point because much of what you explained regarding research is laughable.
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OldSkool
Mike, btw, u keep saying vpw knew everything by his 5 senses he could then God gave revelation. You do know there are more than 5 senses, right?
Source:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://twentytwowords.com/humans-have-more-than-5-senses-here-they-are/&ved=0ahUKEwjXyaWTjarYAhXJkOAKHSamC4IQFggxMAE&usg=AOvVaw0XUSXtXpg2BnQCOEFJuiU-
Surely, God would have showed vpw this as well. And im far from a scholar and this post danm sure is no schorlarly work, but notice how its proper to cite a source so the website is credited, oh, and the article author cited their sources. Neither me nor the site author claimed God gave the information by revelation, or we dug it up by years of research while eating only grapes. That would be lying now wouldnt it? And lying is wrong.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, why on earth would adults want to attend meetings with people under 21? I know I wouldn't. BTW, I am not talking about people who want to "mess" with underage kids.
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So_crates
Clutter up the book?
Give me a break.
Do you know MLA? It all goes in the back of the book, organized by authors name. Parenthetical prompts, in the text, such as (SO_CRATES 2018), refer you to the back of the book. So were all this clutter your talking about? You mean, back then people were unable to skip over parenthesis?
That's a new one. "Back in my day, people didn't want to cite sources of information because they didn't know how to skip over parenthesis."
Nobody has to read them if the don't want to.
I've read secular, non-scholarly books that use MLA.
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So_crates
All this describes divine dictation. What difference does it make whether it was dictated directly or a recorded sermon?
As you said, Saint Vic supervised every step.
Was the Christ in him asleep at the switch when he read the glaring errors in PLAF and ignored him? I thought he operated all nine all the time.
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T-Bone
hmmmm...how about a scratch-and-sniff feature - this way folks have the option to do some olfactory research if they want to...you just “download” the app and then sWIPE to the left to get a whiff .
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chockfull
Mike, I'm reading through the above and I must say, you sound like you could be the perfect Way International follower.
I mean you worship VPW. To the point you are even making up your own words and process about Biblical research. And wrapping it up with rhetoric (major thesis). You refuse to consider the fruit of the man's life with respect to how he actually lived as opposed to what he taught. And you are like his greatest spokesman, even greater than his own wife and children.
What more could the Way want?
Did they kick you out?
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So_crates
You mean obtain someone elses work to steal or tell the research department what he believes to passage means and it was the research departments job to find the verses to back it up. Both fly in the face of any manner of scientific method.
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penworks
What an amazing way to keep the propaganda going ... with more propaganda! With posts like these, you keep yourself and others from climbing outside the TWI box and learning new things, like what research really means. Your spouting off about VP's so-called research would be funny if it weren't for the fact that it shows how some people are still very delusional when it comes to understanding what VPW did. To me, this is a sad reminder of the damage he caused.
Penworks.
P.s. My real name is Charlene Edge and my personal story of being on the research team in The Way can be found in my book, Undertow.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Well put Penworks! I've been waiting for a comment from you! You are so good at courteously stating the obvious about TWIt propaganda as spread by delusional wierwille sycophants. If anyone here at GSC is experientially and intellectually qualified to accurately review and critique dictor's "research" principles and "techniques" (private interpretation by drambuie revelation) from a firsthand POV, it is you! We've written tons here regarding the actual FACTS of dictor's "research" principles, how "his" books were actually put together, what the sourcing was, and how it was forced to be handled professionally and academically as the highly educated linguists, and textual critics began arriving in the research dept. as they finished their REAL degrees at accredited universities of international repute. Dic's sloppy, vapid, anti-intellectual, baseline provided nothing of genuine value in the field of textual criticism or MS research. It was ALL plagiarized from the sources repeatedly documented here at the GSC. ALL OF IT!
I try not to write much on Mike threads, because it's like debating the reality of a My Little Pony episode, or a particularly disturbing episode of Criminal Minds, where the unsub is disconcertingly weird. If looked at substantively, what he says is like reading a bad translation of C.S. Lewis' The Lion, the Witch and The Wardrobe. It is increasingly annoying with each post. So, rather than posting a sarcastic, cynical NYer 'tude comment, I just read and see how others respond. After 15 years, I have finally concluded that Mike is totally meshuggene with his verkackte wierwille-worship. That's a Yiddish way of saying it nicely.
Thanks to all who take the time to post in response to Mike's delusional propaganda. It protects newbies and lurkers from the insanity of wierwille drunken delusional, self-aggrandizing Bible fairy tales. Mike lives in a reality of his own making. I knew him back in the day, both in NY, and at HQ. He is a harmless, good-natured, gentle and kind soul imo. But, he got stuck in a bad batch of kult koolaid because of some 14 year old hippies (who I also know) who were electrified by Jesus Christ as they knew him for the first time. They were in the midst of a genuine Christian revival that dictor paul was lucky enough to grab a piece of and make his P.T. Barnum fortune, and service the needs of his perverted sexual compulsions. They escaped eventually. Mike loves it in the briar patch with the tares. He's happy and comfortable in his delusions. He is a physical threat to no one. He is just a lost pilgrim on the dpw bullshit road who loves the journey to nowhere. Not even Narnia. Peace Mike.
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Mike
Hi Charlene,
We’ve chatted a little here a few years ago, and we knew each other only by face back in the Groovy Rye days, as well as HQ. As time permits I’ll have to check out your book. I do respect your skills.
What you say is true, that I am keeping myself within a very contained world view. This is very deliberate on my part, but you are wrong in your supposition that I fail to learn and expand.
My Way Box is a lot different from yours. There are similarities, though, and I’d like to explore them. Where can I get your book?
See, I just came out of my customized Way Box via the secret back door to take in information contrary to my deliberately chosen world view. I did this same thing ALWAYS in the 1970. while you were practicing the opposite technique of learning, and staying inside your Way Box. Did your box have a secret back door back then?
In the 70s I’d go witnessing about JCNG (even before the book was written) to ministers of conventional churches JUST to get a thorough overview. I wanted to be VERY sure about the Trinity. Sometimes I was in tears driving home, because they had studied their position well. It was very hard to get a rounded spiritual education back then. No other grads would join me in these endeavors.
I made my deliberate decisions back then to follow ideas that proved out to be solid, not the latest bandwagon issues coming down from leadership. I saw many WaYBoxed grads follow their emotions, do very blittle research on their own, and fall into leadership worship.
If you’ve been reading my recent posts here, I’ve dropped many comments that show I’ve been educating myself in many surprising ways all along, still am, and my deliberate decision to stay within the city walls God has provided me is an intelligent one. What I post I can back up, and can show it is more consistent and more commplete than most posters here, and maybe even yours.
All that I posted about the 3 kinds of research above is correct, and I can post the places where we were taught it. It just didn’t quite all sink in for us all back then, and we forgot a lot. I search the records to refresh my understanding of what we were taught. It’s much better than memory.
I only arrived at my present world view in 1998. It’s a lot different than how I thought in the 70s and 80s. I those days I vaguely thought there were some sections of the 1968 film class that were either God-breathed or “straight prophesy” but I didn’t know how to find where each such section would begin and then end. It never occurred to me that it was just an introduction to the printed publications.
My new 20 year old customized Way Box is tight and useful. I fine tune it daily.
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penworks
Undertow is at Amazon and Barnes and Noble.
Peace.
What an amazing way to keep the propaganda going ... with more propaganda! With posts like these, you keep yourself and others from climbing outside the TWI box and learning new things, like what research really means. Your spouting off about VP's so-called research would be funny if it weren't for the fact that it shows how some people are still very delusional when it comes to understanding what VPW did. To me, this is a sad reminder of the damage he caused.
Penworks.
P.s. My real name is Charlene Edge and my personal story of being on the research team in The Way can be found in my book, Undertow.
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Mike
I reject "obtain someone elses work to steal"
I accept "tell the research department what he believes to passage means and it was the research departments job to find the verses to back it up."
You are also right about this not being like the scientific method. It's not supposed to be.
This kind of research is how a college professor writes a book with grad students assisting. The thesis is the professor's only. The grad students are assisting only, but gaining experienc e for when they conduct their own research. This is a time honored tradition in academia. It's well known that with many academic books the actual dog work and most writing is done by the grad students and the OFTEN get no credit. The thesis of the book is the sole property of the professor. This is the way it was in the 1960s. It may havbe changed some.
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