Plagiarism on the road to success

[GoldStar]

- Morons from Outer Space is a very funny movie

- But not when they actually show up just to harass

[Rocky]

2 minutes ago, GoldStar said:

- Morons from Outer Space is a very funny movie

- But not when they actually show up just to harass

How did you arrive at your expertise at determining what other people's motives might be?

[GoldStar]

- I arrived at my expertise by observing the behavior of MORONS

- thank you, you have been especially helpful

Edited February 26, 2018 by GoldStar

[Rocky]

5 minutes ago, GoldStar said:

- I gained arrived at my expertise by observing the behavior of MORONS

- thank you, you have been especially helpful

Do you have any online citations that might help other readers here understand your methods and develop like skills? Please share.

[Rocky]

Might this be one reference you used?

[So_crates]

After a few moments static it appears we're back with our regularly scheduled program:

 

There have been claims that all intellectual property belongs to God, so plaigerism isn't stealing. There are also claims that since Christians have all things in common there can be no stealing. These claims negate everything Christ came to do.

How?

God works in absolutes, you've absolutely obeyed the law or you didn't. You absolutely stole or you didn't.

Anything less and Christ could have used that loophole to get out of having to fulfill the Law.

Christ for example could have stolen all the silver from the tabernacle. "Well, all things belong to God and I'm the son of God, so its not really stealing..."

Or to use  another previously mentioned loophole, all Christ had to do was pick people who would not report his disobedience of the law to the authorities.

Edited February 26, 2018 by So_crates

[Mike]

4 hours ago, GoldStar said:

- I am asking you very nicely to leave me alone

- I do not like your tone or comments or aggressive behavior and making false statements about me

- I do not wish to hold a conversation with you

- Just leave me alone

 

I often feel the way you do GoldStar.

But later I cool down and realize something.

What I realize is that the organizers here allow me to post pretty much anything. 

HOWEVER, I also must to be prepared to allow them say pretty much anything back to me.

It can get pretty hairy, and surprisingly upsetting.

No matter how thick my skin gets, it still hurts to have someone trash over or miss my points.

With the freedom comes the fire. 

 

....anyway that's how I handle it.

Good Luck

[Mike]

4 hours ago, So_crates said:

There have been claims that all intellectual property belongs to God, so plaigerism isn't stealing. There are also claims that since Christians have all things in common there can be no stealing. These claims negate everything Christ came to do.

 

That's not MY position.

I've said that all revelations belong to God.  This would be in the family of God setting.... rural Ohio... not marketplace, not academia.

As far as God owning absolutely everything... no... that's future.

There are indications that the first century church got into "all things common." When an where Christians agree to do this, it's ok to do it. Usually that agreement deteriorates, though.

Can you see how my position greatly differs from the rag you dragged in from the slush?

In the market and academy plagiarism is stealing. In God's family the revelations are to be shared.

[Mike]

9 hours ago, GoldStar said:

.....

In one case, the statement may be, it wasn't worth my time for $5.

In the other case, the statement may be "I don't want to waste time on that, I have more important things to do."

Or could it have been that the plagiarism increased the sales of publications by B.G. Leonard, and he was happy about it but told no one?  I do not know.

Or that B.G. Leonard was glad that his ideas were spread at someone else's expense.

Or that he was flattered, as in the axiom "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  I don't know.

The possibilities are endless.

Thus, in search of documented information, not in search of criticism of my question, I ask my valid question again, hopefully to receive proper replies:

"Does anyone know if there are documents available that show that any of the original authors contested the plagiarizing of their texts that the "Doctor'" has been accused of plagiarizing?"

 

These are all valid points GoldStar.  Some of them I've made here in the past.

I answered your question earlier, but maybe too briefly.

I mentioned that BG Leonard came to the ROA around 1986 and that he was very angry that TWI taught that SIT was a manifestation and not a gift. This I heard a couple times, but it was never verified to me.

What I implied in this was that BG seemed to know a lot of what we were doing, but THAT point of deep doctrine is what that rumor had him angry at. No one said anything about copyrights. It was DOCTRINE that BG was angry about.
I just thought that was interesting.

[Mike]

The more I think on it....   BG taught his classes to ministers, right?

I'll bet at the end of his class he told his students to go out and teach others as you have been taught. VPW did just that. However BG was angry that VPW changed "gift" to " manifestation."   BG WAS ANGRY THAT VPW DIDN'T COPY HIM ACCURATELY ENOUGH!

We got to check out that rumor.

BG Leonard visits New Knoxville..... 1986?  Who remembers?

[WordWolf]

9 hours ago, GoldStar said:

Question:

Does anyone know if there are documents available that show that any of the original authors contested the plagiarizing of their texts that the "Doctor'" has been accused of plagiarizing?

John Juedes did the work on this. In this, vpw benefited from 2 things- time and obscurity.    By the time vpw plagiarized Bullinger, Bullinger was long dead and could not contest anything.  vpw kept a very low profile, so Stiles never heard vpw plagiarized him. Leonard eventually did- and added elaborate copyright notices to his books and addressed plagiarism as a really bad thing to do. He chose not to take legal action. It is my OPINION that he chose not to take legal action because of cautions in I Corinthians 6 about not suing the brethren.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+6&version=KJV

That's my best guess as to why-I've never spoken to him on it nor read him specify a reason.

[So_crates]

35 minutes ago, Mike said:

That's not MY position.

Odd, that was your position.

35 minutes ago, Mike said:

I've said that all revelations belong to God.  This would be in the family of God setting.... rural Ohio... not marketplace, not academia.

As far as God owning absolutely everything... no... that's future.

There are indications that the first century church got into "all things common." When an where Christians agree to do this, it's ok to do it. Usually that agreement deteriorates, though.

Can you see how my position greatly differs from the rag you dragged in from the slush?

In the market and academy plagiarism is stealing. In God's family the revelations are to be shared.

And you fail to understand, as I saaid, with God there is no in the marketplace and academia this is true, but everywhere else this is true.

As I said, God must work in absolutes, you either steal or you don't, otherwise those same rationalizations can be used by Christ to get out of fulfilling the law.

As I further said, Christ could rationalize stealing all the silver from the tabernacle,"Everything is God's, I'm the Son of God, so this isn't sstealing..."

Just where in the bible does it say everything belongs to God in the future?

All 24 of these verses are in present tense:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/All-Things-Belong-To-God

Edited February 27, 2018 by So_crates

[Mike]

I also am seeing clearly how in the 1940s and 50s the rural pastor ships that existed were quite non-overlapping. There was not a competing market that they engaged in for people or readers.  Those in the circles VPW hung out in were not competing with each other. I see them as assisting each other. This world was far from the book markets and academia.

[WordWolf]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

The more I think on it....   BG taught his classes to ministers, right?

I'll bet at the end of his class he told his students to go out and teach others as you have been taught. VPW did just that. However BG was angry that VPW changed "gift" to " manifestation."   BG WAS ANGRY THAT VPW DIDN'T COPY HIM ACCURATELY ENOUGH!

We got to check out that rumor.

BG Leonard visits New Knoxville..... 1986?  Who remembers?

Leonard never taught others to reteach his class.  That's why vpw had to ask for a special exception to teach Leonard's class locally on a onetime basis, which Leonard allowed. That's when vpw taught that class and said it was his own and never mentioned Leonard- but considered grads of Leonard's class to be grads of his class as well.  We got that from a poster who took Leonard's class, and asked him specifically about all this. Leonard never complained to him-although this was AFTER the 80s- that vpw changed  "gift" to "manifestation." So, I'm more than a little skeptical this rumor had nothing to do with Leonard himself.  Leonard was rather specific that he was unhappy that vpw lied and claimed it was his class.

[So_crates]

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

I also am seeing clearly how in the 1940s and 50s the rural pastor ships that existed were quite non-overlapping. There was not a competing market that they engaged in for people or readers.  Those in the circles VPW hung out in were not competing with each other. I see them as assisting each other. This world was far from the book markets and academia.

And once again, there is no book markets and academia with God. You stole something or you didn't.

There is no right in this realm. wrong in that realm. You obeyed The Law or you didn't. You stole or you didn't.

Isn't this basic PLAF? No big sins or little sins only sins (or absolutes--you sinned or you didn't).

Edited February 27, 2018 by So_crates

[Rocky]

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

There are indications that the first century church got into "all things common." When an where Christians agree to do this, it's ok to do it. Usually that agreement deteriorates, though.

 

Inevitably, it deteriorates, even IF it's agreed upon ahead of time. And for it to be valid, it would have to be agreed upon ahead of time by all parties that would be materially impacted.

[Rocky]

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

The more I think on it....   BG taught his classes to ministers, right?

I'll bet at the end of his class he told his students to go out and teach others as you have been taught. VPW did just that. However BG was angry that VPW changed "gift" to " manifestation."   BG WAS ANGRY THAT VPW DIDN'T COPY HIM ACCURATELY ENOUGH!

 

That takes the form of an argument supposedly based on logic. However, it is based on suppositions and is not documented, at least not by you as presented.

[So_crates]

28 minutes ago, Mike said:

The more I think on it....   BG taught his classes to ministers, right?

I'll bet at the end of his class he told his students to go out and teach others as you have been taught. VPW did just that.

Saint Vic never told student to go out and teach what they've been taught.

Saint Vic was into Weirwille Over the World (WOW), so he told them to push the class.

[WordWolf]

22 hours ago, Mike said:

Then there's C) where the new TWI is hesitant to enforce their inherited copyright on the books because they don't want anything like A) to come out in the courts. Those books were digitized around 2001 and widely distributed in .PDF files so they are now a defacto public domain item.  Also, the film class was posted on FaceBook and YouTube for a while.  

Since the copyright holder never authorized nor issued the PDFs nor the videos, they're illegal to own or distribute.  Widespread copyright infringement doesn't turn something into "public domain" no matter how hard it is to catch the copyright violators.  The reason you can't find the thing on Facebook, YouTube or other sources (ezboard's source was taken down as soon as it was discovered) is that it's still illegal. YouTube in particular has a very itchy trigger-finger on anything SUGGESTED to be copyright infringement.

[WordWolf]

On 2/26/2018 at 1:02 AM, WordWolf said:

This is the ENTIRE preface to the White Book, RTHST, Receiving the Holy Spirit Today...(3rd edition and later, which is when Stiles' name-but not his material- vanished from the book)

 

 

"When I was serving my first congregation, A Korean missionary

asked me, 'Why don't you search for the greatest of all things in life which

would teach Christian believers the HOW of a really victorious life?' This challenge

was the beginning of a search which led me through many, many hours of examining

different English translations, the various critical Greek texts, and Aramaic

"originals", looking for the source of the power which was manifested in the early

Church.

Finally I realized that the experience referred to as "receiving the holy spirit"

in the Scriptures WAS and IS actually available to every born-again believer today.

I believed to receive the gift of holy spirit and I, too, manifested.

Ever since receiving into manifestation the holy spirit, I have had the desire to

put in written form the longing and fears that were mine regarding the receiving

thereof. I believe that sharing my quest with the believers who are today seeking

to be endued with power from on high may be instrumental in leading them to the

answer of their hearts' desires.

I knew from the Bible that what God sent at Pentecost was still available.

It had to be, for God does not change. I knew that the receiving of the power from

oh high on the day of Pentecost had meant increased ability for the apostles and

disciples years ago, and that I needed and wanted the same blessing. I knew that

if the Church ever needed the holy spirit in manifestation it needed it now.

Throughout my academic training in a college, a university, four seminaries,

from the commentaries I studies, and from my years of questing and research among

the various religious groups claiming adherence to the holy spirit's availability,

there appeared many things contradictory to the accuracy of the recorded Word of God.

I knew their teachings were sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee for truth.

The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all I had heard and thought

out myself, and I started anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook.

I did not want to omit, deny, or change any passage for, the Word of God being the

will of God, the Scripture must fit like a hand in a glove.

If you are a Christian believer, I sincerely encourage you to study this book.

Do not allow your past teachings or feelings to discourage you from going on to

receive God's best. If you need power and ability to face up to the snares of this

life, you may find your answer while reading this book. It is my prayer that you may

be edified, exhorted and comforted.

For those searching the Scriptures, desiring to know the reasons why, how, what or

where, I suggest you do a careful study of the introductions as well as the appendices

in this volume. For those who simply desire to receive, read chapters 1 through 5 and

enjoy God's great presence and power.

II Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that neededeth not to be ashamed,

rightly dividing the word of truth.

To his helpers and colleagues every writer owes a profound debt.

This seventh edition has been read and studied carefully by men and women

of Biblical and spiritual ability. To all of these I am most grateful.

=================================================

The truth of the matter is that the contents of JE Stiles "Gifts of the Holy Spirit",

and content by Bullinger and Stiles form the ENTIRE contents of RTHST.

You SHOULD know that-you own a copy of Stiles' book!

That's COMPLETELY the opposite of what he said here.

None of their names appeared here.

He said he used "the Bible as my handbook as well as my textbook".

The truth of the matter is that the early editions of the book used

Stiles' book as his handbook, guidebook, and contents.

 

[waysider]

56 minutes ago, Mike said:

I also am seeing clearly how in the 1940s and 50s the rural pastor ships that existed were quite non-overlapping. There was not a competing market that they engaged in for people or readers.  Those in the circles VPW hung out in were not competing with each other. I see them as assisting each other. This world was far from the book markets and academia.

And you know this...how?

[Mike]

9 minutes ago, waysider said:

And you know this...how?

They didn't have the connectedness we have now.  They hardly had any TV. Just radio.  Everything was far away from everything else. Even phone calls were expensive for long distance.  It was farm country.  The markets and the academics were in the cities.  People traveled short distances to go to church.  I'm seeing this in my mind's eye as I look back at life in the 50s. I remember some of it.  Stores closed at night and weekends.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Mike

[waysider]

28 minutes ago, Mike said:

They didn't have the connectedness we have now.  They hardly had any TV. Just radio.  Everything was far away from everything else. Even phone calls were expensive for long distance.  It was farm country.  The markets and the academics were in the cities.  People traveled short distances to go to church.  I'm seeing this in my mind's eye as I look back at life in the 50s. I remember some of it.  Stores closed at night and weekends.

You've been watching too many Andy Griffith reruns.

[T-Bone]

13 hours ago, Mike said:

I also am seeing clearly how in the 1940s and 50s the rural pastor ships that existed were quite non-overlapping. There was not a competing market that they engaged in for people or readers.  Those in the circles VPW hung out in were not competing with each other. I see them as assisting each other. This world was far from the book markets and academia.

Barring the claims that one has hung out with historians, sociologists, theoretical physicists and the like....and in the spirit of one-upmanship claim to have built a crude time machine  - - I was wondering what methods you employed that provided you the ability of “seeing clearly” all that .

[T-Bone]

15 hours ago, Mike said:

The more I think on it....   BG taught his classes to ministers, right?

I'll bet at the end of his class he told his students to go out and teach others as you have been taught. VPW did just that. However BG was angry that VPW changed "gift" to " manifestation."   BG WAS ANGRY THAT VPW DIDN'T COPY HIM ACCURATELY ENOUGH!

We got to check out that rumor.

BG Leonard visits New Knoxville..... 1986?  Who remembers?

I think it’s very revealing of wierwille’s tendencies to control things and make money, that he did not encourage TWI followers to do the same after taking his “own” PFAL class - plagiarized from multiple sources..

..any place where I served we were always directed to get people signed up for the class...god forbid we should ever loan or give them one of the books from the class - let alone teach them all that stuff on our own.