Mike is right. Sometimes there, right in the midst of reading through the details of his posts when you read them carefully, you come across a statement that just seems to out-shadow all the surrounding statements as to 'splaining things.
That, along with his touching empathetic account of the Vicster sexually molesting someone in his first class and Mikey giving him a pass because the girl had problems too and didn't do anything to move the Word.
For clarity sake, one does not "move the Word" with one's penis Mikey boy.
See you in Doctrinal, joust master.
It was NOT a molestation, only a proposition, and she was and AC grad. You assumed the worst because you wanted to.
I'm trying to get out of here, but it's like trying to stop a freight train.
********************
Late Addendum:
Just reflecting on how I'm too sensitive to these things, I only used one word (victim) to describe that situation because it still bothers me today. A simple proposition (with him dutifully backing off from her refusal) is still horrific me. It bothered me a lot!
Yet you, chockful, assumed the worst of both the situation and of me for blowing it off. This is one large example of where you and others are not sensitive enough. Could we learn from each other and balance out a little? BTW, my female friend was NOT offended or shocked by it as nearly as much as me. She thought it was kind of funny. I didn't.
This is a perfect example of looking for targets instead looking for heart, like asking a few questions.
Hold on there, Don Quixote. WLIL, although a meandering tale to impress a young woman, is important not because of some VP canonized God breathed statement in it, but it gives all the detail regarding how VP came to plagiarize JE Stiles material after being helped out at an Oral Roberts event. This includes really verifiable BS like Vic's misogynistic mindset where he raised his opinion of JE Stiles when he spoke harshly to his wife. Nowhere else is Vic's tall tales of fictitious snow on gas pumps recorded, which has long since been compared against weather records and debunked.
Nay young joust master, it is not a mere obscure book, it is a masterful tale of how a pervy old dude spins his own history to impress a young hippie chick.
Every bit as God-breathed as the whiskey infused tales told young ladies around bars across the world on a weekend night.
Carry on joust master.
I doubt Stiles spoke harshly to his wife, otherwise she would have beaten the sh-t out of him and called the police.
Mike, give me a break. Point of view has nothing to do with it. It's right there in black and white. Did you even look at the comparisons? Wierwille clearly copied that material, almost word for word. Suppose the subject had been farm machinery or furniture repair, would it have been copying then or would that just be a "point of view"?
It was NOT a molestation, only a proposition, and she was and AC grad. You assumed the worst because you wanted to.
I'm trying to get out of here, but it's like trying to stop a freight train.
Okay --- Call me a liar! I said I wouldn't comment any more to you in this topic. But damn --- I have one last thing to say to you here, Mike:
It's obvious you don't bother to review your remarks before you post them. And I'm convinced it's because you're just so busy formulating the next ones already in your head --- that you don't stop to consider much at all before you post them! Hence, we see stuff just like this:
's like st (Go back and look...that's just the way you posted it!)
And just what the hell is that, but the tell-tale marking of a man who just doesn't care a lick about what he's saying, nor how it might be taken by others? And this may sound picky, but look above where you said: "she was and AC grad" --- and???? Just think of that...and look in the mirror. Again, it's just another (yet subtle!) indicator of your laziness to consider what you're saying to people before you post.
Now we all know you can't go back and rewrite all of your posts. But damn --- in the future, please use a bit more caution before posting --- by putting yourself in the shoes of the intended readers. From many of your posts, it's also obvious you have a good grasp on composing highly-complex thoughts. And that's to your credit!
So: I implore you to be a bit more patient, instead of just whipping things out of your all-too-busy mind --- without "looking well to your ways", even as Proverbs encourages us.
Do you want to do something miraculous? Gal 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour[that's us....your neighbors at GS!]as thyself." Do you really get that? God promises that (if you take the time to be more considerate of others, even as you are of yourself) you'll have accomplished something that NOBODY IN THE OT could ever do, which is precisely what Jesus Christ himself accomplished: It can be for youjust as if you had fulfilled the entire law --- and everything in it. (And to me, that's a miracle!)
Now, my friend --- doesn't that sound to you like something worth striving for? If so, then get cracking! See you in Doctrinal.
It was NOT a molestation, only a proposition, and she was and AC grad. You assumed the worst because you wanted to.
I'm trying to get out of here, but it's like trying to stop a freight train.
********************
Late Addendum:
Just reflecting on how I'm too sensitive to these things, I only used one word (victim) to describe that situation because it still bothers me today. A simple proposition (with him dutifully backing off from her refusal) is still horrific me. It bothered me a lot!
Yet you, chockful, assumed the worst of both the situation and of me for blowing it off. This is one large example of where you and others are not sensitive enough. Could we learn from each other and balance out a little? BTW, my female friend was NOT offended or shocked by it as nearly as much as me. She thought it was kind of funny. I didn't.
This is a perfect example of looking for targets instead looking for heart, like asking a few questions.
Dude a married minister propositioned the girl next to you in class and you give him a pass? The error here is not in me saying she was molested. In my view a married man who is a clergyman should not be "moving the Word" with his penis in any capacity - propositioning members of the public taking his classes. This set the pattern for what later would become in the Way quid pro quo sexual harassment.
The problem here is not in me "assuming the worst". And it's not in me being "insensitive" to an old pervy adulterer.
The bad versus the worst is enough to discredit the man, and sufficiently make my point about the blind eye you have turned to it ever since the beginning.
The only God breathed Word I see attached to Victor Paul Wierwille's life and actions consists of one letter. Scarlet in fact.
Dude a married minister propositioned the girl next to you in class and you give him a pass? The error here is not in me saying she was molested. In my view a married man who is a clergyman should not be "moving the Word" with his penis in any capacity - propositioning members of the public taking his classes. This set the pattern for what later would become in the Way quid pro quo sexual harassment.
The problem here is not in me "assuming the worst". And it's not in me being "insensitive" to an old pervy adulterer.
The bad versus the worst is enough to discredit the man, and sufficiently make my point about the blind eye you have turned to it ever since the beginning.
The only God breathed Word I see attached to Victor Paul Wierwille's life and actions consists of one letter. Scarlet in fact.
A
Chock, I loved the book, "The Scarlet Letter, " by Nathaniel Hawthorne. I would never have thought about comparing VPW, to the adulterous minister, in the book. I see your point; both of them were "men of the cloth," who cheated on their wives. Very intresting post Chock.
And you also wrote: "It's obvious you don't bother to review your remarks before you post them. And I'm convinced it's because you're just too busy formulating the next ones already in your head --- that you don't stop to consider much at all before you post them! Hence, we see stuff just like this:
's like st (Go back and look...that's just the way you posted it!)
And just what the hell is that, but the tell-tale marking of a man who just doesn't care a lick about what he's saying, nor how it might be taken by others?"
Hi spectrum49,
Thank you very much for that thoughtful post.
Far from wanting to call you a liar, I feel I owe you a full explanation for the way I handled that post of mine with a late addendum.
My great prayer at this time is that this can be my last post on this thread, and especially my last in the subtopic of sex.
Absolutely yes to one of your hunches. Sort of yes to some. Let’s untangle it slowly. I’m not now in a rush (work related) like I was earlier.
***
I first saw it AFTER hitting the “Submit Reply” button on my original post, the strange scrap of text way at the bottom of my original post that looked like this: 's like st
I try to remember to write my posts in MS Word where the chances of losing a lot of work to a glitch is a lot less, and backups are built in, and there are no interruptions with notifications from another poster.
Sometimes I forget to do this and am burned and do lose fresh textwork by various glitches, most due to human error. Sometimes I forget for a short while, and then remember, and then copy/paste into MS Word, and then later copy/paste back into the GSC editor box.That is what must have happened here with “'s like st”
When I first saw it, I thought “…where did that come from?”but I quickly saw that it was a early scrap that survived this double transfer process. It fits right into this line very early in my editing:
“I'm trying to get out of here, but it's like trying to stop a freight train.”
I added the “trying to” much later in the original post.
I figured the scrap was hidden from my sight when I finally hit the “Submit Reply” button because of lots of “line feed” generated blank space had happened in the transfers and the scrap was below the screen.This took me about 2 seconds to figure out because it happens a lot when you do thousands of posts.
I then thought:
“Should I clean it up? Naw, no one’s going to confuse that with anything sexual (being very nervous about that). I’m late for work and it looks safe. No one’s going to misconstrue anything evil (like many try hard to do) from that scrap so I’ll leave it. ”
I shut down my computer and started getting ready to leave.Then I remembered more about the post, that it was a perfect example of the target shooting mode of many posters that I have to deal with here all the time.
Plus I felt I had been stomped on by whomever I was replying to and still felt very hurt by the (regular) kind of misunderstanding it was.
I am self employed, so I made an executive decision to BE late for work and defend my honor one ?last? time < ? ugh! > and turned my computer back on to add the late addendum.I also saw my chance to clean up the crazy < 's like st > scrap.
End of that story.
***
The reason I am nervous about this topic of sex is because I grew up from infancy as a science nerd personality that more than filled the shoes (I stretched them) of any stereotype of nerd ever projected in the media, and I am not at all proud of it. I’m not talking about the smart component of nerdity, but the extremely stupid component: the social. Though I can explain Einstein’s Relativity to any bartender on a slow night, my social skills at age 21 were about what most children learn early in Jr High. I have fought to catch up all my life and made many breakthroughs. I estimate that I am now, today, finally at about at the level of a High School senior in 1967, which was when I graduated.
Five years ago one such major breakthrough happened when I learned to dance. It’s been lots of fun, and I am finally experiencing situations and joys and frustrations I could only previously observe and study others experiencing, with my science-head of great nerdliness.
And study I did.I might be able to give Desmond Morris (author of The Naked Ape) a run for his money. There’s a funny line in one of the Revenge of the Nerds movies on this very thing.
But third person knowledge of how men and women interact has very little of the first person flavors. There’s SO much I still don’t know and am completely oblivious to.
I grew up being given the solemn task of watching over my 3 little sisters in school and on school buses before I hit puberty. I had no idea what that that responsibility meant. After puberty I totally knew what it meant. This really further stunted my growth in social areas.
In my recent dancing I am blessed with many female friends now, more than I ever could imagine. They easily judge me “safe” because I really am. The reason I was able to get to know some of the enraged (and rightly so) women here around 2005 is because in PMs I could let down my hair and show them my heart.
Women, I’m finding, really do have some kind of extra awareness of hearts that men need lots of proof before seeing.
I’m a world class expert at the brother/sister relationship, because that’s about all I’ve ever experienced. My botched marriage was not a marriage at all. In private I cannot hide this no matter how much I try to be cool. On the dance floor, though, this is now finally an advantage. It never was before.
You wrote: “It's obvious you don't bother to review your remarks before you post them. And I'm convinced it's because you're just too busy formulating the next ones already in your head --- that you don't stop to consider much at all before you post them!”
First sentence is dead wrong, qualifying with the fact that I have a huge volume to deal with, and you see the errors that slip through. I see the many more that I do catch and fix before posting or two seconds afterward.
Second sentence is totally right, but not the whole story.
Third sentence is salt and pepper; some right some wrong.
I do try to consider all that I post, and (considering the huge volume) I do pretty well.But when it comes to the topic of sex my ability to consider all the angles of how others can take in my text, I am dumber than dirt.
All my life I have run into this. It’s ONE of the main reasons I advanced the Art of Dodging 15 years ago here when the sex shooters jump out of the bushes and take aim.
I have PMed all of this and much more to DWBH and penworks over 10 years ago, and to skyrider recently. This is one reason DWBH labels me as “gentle.”I think I have totally succeed in being a gentleman because women tell me, when they have a man on their arm. It’s not at all fun being as innocent as the wind drive snow in this area. I’ve tried to sin here, and failed every time. I missed out on a lot. Consolation comes now in old age by seeing I also missed out on a lot of lifelong pain as well.
This is why that AC grad I mentioned earlier confided in me long ago, and why it still bothers me to this day, what she said.
But knowing how to write on this topic with many hotheads taking constant aim is impossible. I just proved it (again) to myself in this mess I just go into.
So I’m trying to wrap up my presence on this thread, and yearn to head into the Doctrinal Dudgeon (after taxes are done) where I can talk about KJV verses and stay away from the sex soaps that prevail here.
I’m trying to totally ignore all but the most crucial responses now.
Please wish me luck.I need it.
*****
Pre posting addendum:
If anyone needs know any more from me please PM it to me so we can end this thread.
And you also wrote: "It's obvious you don't bother to review your remarks before you post them. And I'm convinced it's because you're just too busy formulating the next ones already in your head --- that you don't stop to consider much at all before you post them! Hence, we see stuff just like this:
's like st (Go back and look...that's just the way you posted it!)
And just what the hell is that, but the tell-tale marking of a man who just doesn't care a lick about what he's saying, nor how it might be taken by others?"
Hi spectrum49,
Thank you very much for that thoughtful post.
Far from wanting to call you a liar, I feel I owe you a full explanation for the way I handled that post of mine with a late addendum.
My great prayer at this time is that this can be my last post on this thread, and especially my last in the subtopic of sex.
Absolutely yes to one of your hunches. Sort of yes to some. Let’s untangle it slowly. I’m not now in a rush (work related) like I was earlier.
***
I first saw it AFTER hitting the “Submit Reply” button on my original post, the strange scrap of text way at the bottom of my original post that looked like this: 's like st
I try to remember to write my posts in MS Word where the chances of losing a lot of work to a glitch is a lot less, and backups are built in, and there are no interruptions with notifications from another poster.
Sometimes I forget to do this and am burned and do lose fresh textwork by various glitches, most due to human error. Sometimes I forget for a short while, and then remember, and then copy/paste into MS Word, and then later copy/paste back into the GSC editor box.That is what must have happened here with “'s like st”
When I first saw it, I thought “…where did that come from?”but I quickly saw that it was a early scrap that survived this double transfer process. It fits right into this line very early in my editing:
“I'm trying to get out of here, but it's like trying to stop a freight train.”
I added the “trying to” much later in the original post.
I figured the scrap was hidden from my sight when I finally hit the “Submit Reply” button because of lots of “line feed” generated blank space had happened in the transfers and the scrap was below the screen.This took me about 2 seconds to figure out because it happens a lot when you do thousands of posts.
I then thought:
“Should I clean it up? Naw, no one’s going to confuse that with anything sexual (being very nervous about that). I’m late for work and it looks safe. No one’s going to misconstrue anything evil (like many try hard to do) from that scrap so I’ll leave it. ”
I shut down my computer and started getting ready to leave.Then I remembered more about the post, that it was a perfect example of the target shooting mode of many posters that I have to deal with here all the time.
Plus I felt I had been stomped on by whomever I was replying to and still felt very hurt by the (regular) kind of misunderstanding it was.
I am self employed, so I made an executive decision to BE late for work and defend my honor one ?last? time < ? ugh! > and turned my computer back on to add the late addendum.I also saw my chance to clean up the crazy < 's like st > scrap.
End of that story.
***
The reason I am nervous about this topic of sex is because I grew up from infancy as a science nerd personality that more than filled the shoes (I stretched them) of any stereotype of nerd ever projected in the media, and I am not at all proud of it. I’m not talking about the smart component of nerdity, but the extremely stupid component: the social. Though I can explain Einstein’s Relativity to any bartender on a slow night, my social skills at age 21 were about what most children learn early in Jr High. I have fought to catch up all my life and made many breakthroughs. I estimate that I am now, today, finally at about at the level of a High School senior in 1967, which was when I graduated.
Five years ago one such major breakthrough happened when I learned to dance. It’s been lots of fun, and I am finally experiencing situations and joys and frustrations I could only previously observe and study others experiencing, with my science-head of great nerdliness.
And study I did.I might be able to give Desmond Morris (author of The Naked Ape) a run for his money. There’s a funny line in one of the Revenge of the Nerds movies on this very thing.
But third person knowledge of how men and women interact has very little of the first person flavors. There’s SO much I still don’t know and am completely oblivious to.
I grew up being given the solemn task of watching over my 3 little sisters in school and on school buses before I hit puberty. I had no idea what that that responsibility meant. After puberty I totally knew what it meant. This really further stunted my growth in social areas.
In my recent dancing I am blessed with many female friends now, more than I ever could imagine. They easily judge me “safe” because I really am. The reason I was able to get to know some of the enraged (and rightly so) women here around 2005 is because in PMs I could let down my hair and show them my heart.
Women, I’m finding, really do have some kind of extra awareness of hearts that men need lots of proof before seeing.
I’m a world class expert at the brother/sister relationship, because that’s about all I’ve ever experienced. My botched marriage was not a marriage at all. In private I cannot hide this no matter how much I try to be cool. On the dance floor, though, this is now finally an advantage. It never was before.
You wrote: “It's obvious you don't bother to review your remarks before you post them. And I'm convinced it's because you're just too busy formulating the next ones already in your head --- that you don't stop to consider much at all before you post them!”
First sentence is dead wrong, qualifying with the fact that I have a huge volume to deal with, and you see the errors that slip through. I see the many more that I do catch and fix before posting or two seconds afterward.
Second sentence is totally right, but not the whole story.
Third sentence is salt and pepper; some right some wrong.
I do try to consider all that I post, and (considering the huge volume) I do pretty well.But when it comes to the topic of sex my ability to consider all the angles of how others can take in my text, I am dumber than dirt.
All my life I have run into this. It’s ONE of the main reasons I advanced the Art of Dodging 15 years ago here when the sex shooters jump out of the bushes and take aim.
I have PMed all of this and much more to DWBH and penworks over 10 years ago, and to skyrider recently. This is one reason DWBH labels me as “gentle.”I think I have totally succeed in being a gentleman because women tell me, when they have a man on their arm. It’s not at all fun being as innocent as the wind drive snow in this area. I’ve tried to sin here, and failed every time. I missed out on a lot. Consolation comes now in old age by seeing I also missed out on a lot of lifelong pain as well.
This is why that AC grad I mentioned earlier confided in me long ago, and why it still bothers me to this day, what she said.
But knowing how to write on this topic with many hotheads taking constant aim is impossible. I just proved it (again) to myself in this mess I just go into.
So I’m trying to wrap up my presence on this thread, and yearn to head into the Doctrinal Dudgeon (after taxes are done) where I can talk about KJV verses and stay away from the sex soaps that prevail here.
I’m trying to totally ignore all but the most crucial responses now.
Please wish me luck.I need it.
*****
Pre posting addendum:
If anyone needs know any more from me please PM it to me so we can end this thread.
Otherwise I’ll just try to ignore any more posts.
Mike, I think many of us would be happy, for you to end it.
It's all good. I see with Mike's last post he feels he has a lot of personal issues in the sex area that he sees is preventing him from making good value judgements about Victor Paul Wierwille. Sorry to hear that. But I don't think I'll continue to emphasize that point beyond pointing out the obvious:
1. One does not "move the Word" with one's penis (or vagina - don't want to leave the ladies out)
2. One does not "move the Word" with other's revelation from God. Or other's work product. That is their revelation and their work. God gave it to them. Not you. Then they put in the work to develop it. So stealing it is still wrong.
It's all good. I see with Mike's last post he feels he has a lot of personal issues in the sex area that he sees is preventing him from making good value judgements about Victor Paul Wierwille.
Which disqualifies him from making any value judgements about Saint Vic or his work.
Would we trust the ruling of a judge or jury that said, at a trial, never mind the details of the crime, just tell me about the times the defendant was an upstanding citizen.
Quote
Sorry to hear that. But I don't think I'll continue to emphasize that point beyond pointing out the obvious:
1. One does not "move the Word" with one's penis (or vagina - don't want to leave the ladies out)
What Mike fails to understand is that if he continues to push his Weirwille over the World agenda, he going to constantly be confronted with Saint Vic's sexual indiscretions. When Saint Vic started information wasn't a few mouse clicks away. Now, a few keystrokes and anyone can find out everything they would care to know about Saint Vic, The Way, or PLAF in lurid detail. So this will be a subject Mike will be vistiting again and again.
Tell possible converts you have personal issues and that prevents you from making good value judgements about Saint Vic and the potential converts will tell you "okay" and go join the Church of Latter Day Smurfs or something.
Quote
2. One does not "move the Word" with other's revelation from God. Or other's work product. That is their revelation and their work. God gave it to them. Not you. Then they put in the work to develop it. So stealing it is still wrong.
After spending 20 years trying to find a way around the stealing others work and bearing false witness issue, you would think Mike would have better answers.
A few post back, Mike said:
In war (which this was) the rules of man can be thrown away. Abraham Lincoln did it.
Read the bible much?
We've been a war since before Eden (part of the reason the snake tempted Eve).
Were there abysmal men of the cloth before? I imagine so.
The Scribes and Pharisees, who, though they held everybody to The Law, thought they were above The Law (sound familiar? Paging Saint Vic!)
Paul, in Timothy, talks of the great falling away.
How does Saint Vic's moment in the war differ from the rest of human history?
Once again, you try to claim plagiarism is man's law. It's not. Not only does God tell us not to steal, He also tell us not to bear false witness (in this case, Saint Vic claiming he did something he didn't do, the textbook definition of plagiarism.). So it was God's law that was broken.
Isn't amazing how God, in his foreknowledge saw there was going to be a plagiarism issue and he put those commandments in the bible to solve it once and for all?
So to bump up this topic on "Plagiarism on the Road to Success", one thing I wanted to bring up was
American Christian Press
Dic and brother Hairy bought a printing press and got it going to put out material under the title of American Christian Press. if you think about it, this is pretty strong evidence of intent to plagiarize and distribute plagiarized material. Both had the idea that if you control what people read, then you control people.
All of the plagiarized works were published under this title. Using their own publishing company actually is the second bit of evidence in intent to plagiarize. This way no external literary or theological reviewers would be looking at any of dictor's work. Everything would be brought through a pseudo publishing process all with the final word belonging to the dictor.
You can see similar patterns in the development of Scientology and the publishing of L. Ron Hubbard's insane works as materials required for every scientologist.
"AMERICAN CHRISTIAN PRESS" should not be confused with "CANADIAN CHRISTIAN PRESS." BG Leonard started that, and vpw ripped off his content and his printing company title as well. In the category of Christianity, the man had few original thoughts in his life.
"AMERICAN CHRISTIAN PRESS" should not be confused with "CANADIAN CHRISTIAN PRESS." BG Leonard started that, and vpw ripped off his content and his printing company title as well. In the category of Christianity, the man had few original thoughts in his life.
Visual depiction of the dictor's trip to Canada to visit BG Leonard.
Edited by chockfull image of roadster up on blocks with wheels stolen
Visual depiction of the dictor's trip to Canada to visit BG Leonard.
(sound of feedback from a cheap PA) attention Adolph’s Cut-Rate Liquor shoppers - will the customer who wanted to trade 4 used tires for a couple of cases of Drambuie, and the girlie magazines uhm...uhhh...my boss said we can’t do that...so ...uhm ...please return those items ...we’ll have your tires by register number 3...The deal is off...uhm ...sorry for the inconvenience.
(sound of feedback from a cheap PA) attention Adolph’s Cut-Rate Liquor shoppers - will the customer who wanted to trade 4 used tires for a couple of cases of Drambuie, and the girlie magazines uhm...uhhh...my boss said we can’t do that...so ...uhm ...please return those items ...we’ll have your tires by register number 3...The deal is off...uhm ...sorry for the inconvenience.
No doubt. However, unlike stealing the tires off of a race car for resale value, which would be difficult to unload as you are jovially pointing out, stolen intellectual property along with purchasing a printing press allowed dictor to make Millions and mentally enslave tens of thousands with cult control tactics..
The fact that wierwille plagiarized so much should be enough to make one wonder what were his real intentions.
If it was to help people understand the Bible - why not just be honest and build on the work of others that he thought were helpful - giving proper citation and then expand on that with his own insight. Surely he learned something of value in all his education that he could share with others.
And besides the big plagiarism issue with wierwille - i think his “alibi” for plagiarism of wanting to “correct the error” in other people’s works - or that that “God showed him how to put it all together to get back to the original word of God” is laughable because of the way he mangled the stuff he stole from others - showing his incompetency with biblical hermeneutics and even in simply understanding the biblical languages.
Makes me think of pirated software; when you buy it you’re probably NOT getting something that has all the major bugs worked out, access to critical security updates or tech support; I think through his own incompetency wierwille actually introduced some major “bugs” into some of the stuff he stole; as far as “updates” - I know wierwille claimed that TWI was a research and teaching ministry, and if their research actually found something that was different from what they’d been teaching then TWI would change what they teach...
...yeah - how many times has that happened?
...If you haven’t read it already - check out Penworks’ book “Undertow” - she worked in TWI’s research department - her book is a real eye-opener on how wierwille pressured the research department to align an interpretation of scripture with what he thought it should say - even when it was counter to what it said in the Greek text!
How about tech support for when you find a problem in their doctrine or practice? Your concerns were usually dismissed due to your lack of believing, your immaturity, you’re going by your five senses, or you need to get rid of all that worldly stuff in your home because it’s giving devil spirits access into your life - I mean everything gives off something - any dummy knows that -
The folks who pirate software probably don’t want you to know who they are - they just want your money...
I’ll take a wild stab on what wierwille’s intentions might have been...he insisted on everyone to call him “doctor” and that PFAL was entirely his baby from all his hard work and personal experiences. So I think he wanted more than just the money from classes, books, etc. - - he wanted the “ fame” - the admiration for all that he had done...What a two-bit money-grubbing narcissistic phony!
TWI was a research and teaching ministry, and if their research actually found something that was different from what they’d been teaching then TWI would change what they teach...
...yeah - how many times has that happened?
Believe it or not, this exact thing happening is what prompted me to decide to attend a TWI fellowship. Craig was teaching a corrected teaching of something, back in the early 90s. I was listening to his tape in 1995. He said someone sent in their research on a particular point, and Craig gave it to the research department, and they found the man was correct, so Craig was teaching the corrected topic. I thought that was amazing.
But then, what he said next, I almost drove off the road - I only had a cassette player in my truck at the time. He said that any of us could send in our research if we disagreed with something. He would throw it out if we just thought is wasn't correct, we had to have research to support our view. But they would look at it, and if they found we were correct, then they would correct that teaching also.
That was something that no other religious organization ever said in my lifetime. So, that was it. I wanted to learn from the ones that knew they were still learning. Unfortunately, it didn't take long for that attitude to become perverted, and Craig's ego went through the roof - so much so that it poured off the screen of his new foundational class.
But when I heard him make that statement, I wouldn't have cared how much plagiarism had taken place in the past. All I cared about was where I was going from that point.
Hey Taxidev - sorry to burst any bubble but all that hits me as just being a marketing tactic to convey the idea that - like wierwille - they’re into finding the truth...so - sorry to disagree with you but I’ve heard enough about what’s really important to wierwille and craig when I was in the corps...
but to the general public it would be wise to convey the idea that TWI was really open to true honest research - and the masses bought it - as you testify to that...Now I would have been really surprised if the person’s research contradicted something wierwille taught....perhaps if you could be more specific on what it was that craig shared about this research from someone...
you should have heard craig go on a rant when it was time to work on our corps research papers; “don’t try to reinvent the wheel” he’d yell as he pounded on the podium “base your research paper on something from PFAL !”
two things one could infer from his rant:
1. craig elevated PFAL to the status of something so revolutionary and mechanically essential as the wheel
2. In light of #1 , he probably would not have been very interested in hearing about anything that would contradict PFAL or even to correct it.
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T-Bone
Just for the record - I’ve mentioned this before - the definition for “hard hitting” as often associated with tough journalists who do their job - is uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in
Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, what are you talking about?? I think there is a lot of "good," here at the GSC. For example, if you go back, and read the threads, many people have revealed the real TWI, not the one in your i
DontWorryBeHappy
Hey Mike: Don’t flatter yourself with your fantasy that I am your “opponent” in some grand “debate”. I am NOT your opponent. I feel deep sorrow and pity for you, not opposition. I have already to
Mike
It was NOT a molestation, only a proposition, and she was and AC grad. You assumed the worst because you wanted to.
I'm trying to get out of here, but it's like trying to stop a freight train.
********************
Late Addendum:
Just reflecting on how I'm too sensitive to these things, I only used one word (victim) to describe that situation because it still bothers me today. A simple proposition (with him dutifully backing off from her refusal) is still horrific me. It bothered me a lot!
Yet you, chockful, assumed the worst of both the situation and of me for blowing it off. This is one large example of where you and others are not sensitive enough. Could we learn from each other and balance out a little? BTW, my female friend was NOT offended or shocked by it as nearly as much as me. She thought it was kind of funny. I didn't.
This is a perfect example of looking for targets instead looking for heart, like asking a few questions.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I doubt Stiles spoke harshly to his wife, otherwise she would have beaten the sh-t out of him and called the police.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
obviously Mike thought JJ was lying and a bigot
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spectrum49
Edited by spectrum49grammar
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chockfull
Dude a married minister propositioned the girl next to you in class and you give him a pass? The error here is not in me saying she was molested. In my view a married man who is a clergyman should not be "moving the Word" with his penis in any capacity - propositioning members of the public taking his classes. This set the pattern for what later would become in the Way quid pro quo sexual harassment.
The problem here is not in me "assuming the worst". And it's not in me being "insensitive" to an old pervy adulterer.
The bad versus the worst is enough to discredit the man, and sufficiently make my point about the blind eye you have turned to it ever since the beginning.
The only God breathed Word I see attached to Victor Paul Wierwille's life and actions consists of one letter. Scarlet in fact.
A
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, I loved the book, "The Scarlet Letter, " by Nathaniel Hawthorne. I would never have thought about comparing VPW, to the adulterous minister, in the book. I see your point; both of them were "men of the cloth," who cheated on their wives. Very intresting post Chock.
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JayDee
Yes? And your point is? Was she more or less qualified to receive “only” a proposition because she was an AC grad?
Do you hear yourself? Do you read what you write? Seems to me you might consider some professional help regarding your thought/logic process.
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Mike
Please read my post to spectrum49 below. I am almost ready to post it.
In there I explain that both my eyes ARE blind due to extreme ignorance on my part.
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Mike
Please read my post to spectrum49 below. I am almost ready to post it.
In there I explain that both my eyes ARE blind due to extreme ignorance on my part.
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Mike
And you also wrote: "It's obvious you don't bother to review your remarks before you post them. And I'm convinced it's because you're just too busy formulating the next ones already in your head --- that you don't stop to consider much at all before you post them! Hence, we see stuff just like this:
's like st (Go back and look...that's just the way you posted it!)
And just what the hell is that, but the tell-tale marking of a man who just doesn't care a lick about what he's saying, nor how it might be taken by others?"
Hi spectrum49,
Thank you very much for that thoughtful post.
Far from wanting to call you a liar, I feel I owe you a full explanation for the way I handled that post of mine with a late addendum.
My great prayer at this time is that this can be my last post on this thread, and especially my last in the subtopic of sex.
Absolutely yes to one of your hunches. Sort of yes to some. Let’s untangle it slowly. I’m not now in a rush (work related) like I was earlier.
***
I first saw it AFTER hitting the “Submit Reply” button on my original post, the strange scrap of text way at the bottom of my original post that looked like this: 's like st
I try to remember to write my posts in MS Word where the chances of losing a lot of work to a glitch is a lot less, and backups are built in, and there are no interruptions with notifications from another poster.
Sometimes I forget to do this and am burned and do lose fresh textwork by various glitches, most due to human error. Sometimes I forget for a short while, and then remember, and then copy/paste into MS Word, and then later copy/paste back into the GSC editor box. That is what must have happened here with “'s like st”
When I first saw it, I thought “…where did that come from?” but I quickly saw that it was a early scrap that survived this double transfer process. It fits right into this line very early in my editing:
“I'm trying to get out of here, but it's like trying to stop a freight train.”
I added the “trying to” much later in the original post.
I figured the scrap was hidden from my sight when I finally hit the “Submit Reply” button because of lots of “line feed” generated blank space had happened in the transfers and the scrap was below the screen. This took me about 2 seconds to figure out because it happens a lot when you do thousands of posts.
I then thought:
“Should I clean it up? Naw, no one’s going to confuse that with anything sexual (being very nervous about that). I’m late for work and it looks safe. No one’s going to misconstrue anything evil (like many try hard to do) from that scrap so I’ll leave it. ”
I shut down my computer and started getting ready to leave. Then I remembered more about the post, that it was a perfect example of the target shooting mode of many posters that I have to deal with here all the time.
Plus I felt I had been stomped on by whomever I was replying to and still felt very hurt by the (regular) kind of misunderstanding it was.
I am self employed, so I made an executive decision to BE late for work and defend my honor one ?last? time < ? ugh! > and turned my computer back on to add the late addendum. I also saw my chance to clean up the crazy < 's like st > scrap.
End of that story.
***
The reason I am nervous about this topic of sex is because I grew up from infancy as a science nerd personality that more than filled the shoes (I stretched them) of any stereotype of nerd ever projected in the media, and I am not at all proud of it. I’m not talking about the smart component of nerdity, but the extremely stupid component: the social. Though I can explain Einstein’s Relativity to any bartender on a slow night, my social skills at age 21 were about what most children learn early in Jr High. I have fought to catch up all my life and made many breakthroughs. I estimate that I am now, today, finally at about at the level of a High School senior in 1967, which was when I graduated.
Five years ago one such major breakthrough happened when I learned to dance. It’s been lots of fun, and I am finally experiencing situations and joys and frustrations I could only previously observe and study others experiencing, with my science-head of great nerdliness.
And study I did. I might be able to give Desmond Morris (author of The Naked Ape) a run for his money. There’s a funny line in one of the Revenge of the Nerds movies on this very thing.
But third person knowledge of how men and women interact has very little of the first person flavors. There’s SO much I still don’t know and am completely oblivious to.
I grew up being given the solemn task of watching over my 3 little sisters in school and on school buses before I hit puberty. I had no idea what that that responsibility meant. After puberty I totally knew what it meant. This really further stunted my growth in social areas.
In my recent dancing I am blessed with many female friends now, more than I ever could imagine. They easily judge me “safe” because I really am. The reason I was able to get to know some of the enraged (and rightly so) women here around 2005 is because in PMs I could let down my hair and show them my heart.
Women, I’m finding, really do have some kind of extra awareness of hearts that men need lots of proof before seeing.
I’m a world class expert at the brother/sister relationship, because that’s about all I’ve ever experienced. My botched marriage was not a marriage at all. In private I cannot hide this no matter how much I try to be cool. On the dance floor, though, this is now finally an advantage. It never was before.
You wrote: “It's obvious you don't bother to review your remarks before you post them. And I'm convinced it's because you're just too busy formulating the next ones already in your head --- that you don't stop to consider much at all before you post them!”
First sentence is dead wrong, qualifying with the fact that I have a huge volume to deal with, and you see the errors that slip through. I see the many more that I do catch and fix before posting or two seconds afterward.
Second sentence is totally right, but not the whole story.
Third sentence is salt and pepper; some right some wrong.
I do try to consider all that I post, and (considering the huge volume) I do pretty well. But when it comes to the topic of sex my ability to consider all the angles of how others can take in my text, I am dumber than dirt.
All my life I have run into this. It’s ONE of the main reasons I advanced the Art of Dodging 15 years ago here when the sex shooters jump out of the bushes and take aim.
I have PMed all of this and much more to DWBH and penworks over 10 years ago, and to skyrider recently. This is one reason DWBH labels me as “gentle.” I think I have totally succeed in being a gentleman because women tell me, when they have a man on their arm. It’s not at all fun being as innocent as the wind drive snow in this area. I’ve tried to sin here, and failed every time. I missed out on a lot. Consolation comes now in old age by seeing I also missed out on a lot of lifelong pain as well.
This is why that AC grad I mentioned earlier confided in me long ago, and why it still bothers me to this day, what she said.
But knowing how to write on this topic with many hotheads taking constant aim is impossible. I just proved it (again) to myself in this mess I just go into.
So I’m trying to wrap up my presence on this thread, and yearn to head into the Doctrinal Dudgeon (after taxes are done) where I can talk about KJV verses and stay away from the sex soaps that prevail here.
I’m trying to totally ignore all but the most crucial responses now.
Please wish me luck. I need it.
*****
Pre posting addendum:
If anyone needs know any more from me please PM it to me so we can end this thread.
Otherwise I’ll just try to ignore any more posts.
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Rocky
Poor Mike. Woe is Mike. Unless you bullies stop posting to him, he won't get his taxes done and you will be to blame [/snark]
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Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, I think many of us would be happy, for you to end it.
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chockfull
It's all good. I see with Mike's last post he feels he has a lot of personal issues in the sex area that he sees is preventing him from making good value judgements about Victor Paul Wierwille. Sorry to hear that. But I don't think I'll continue to emphasize that point beyond pointing out the obvious:
1. One does not "move the Word" with one's penis (or vagina - don't want to leave the ladies out)
2. One does not "move the Word" with other's revelation from God. Or other's work product. That is their revelation and their work. God gave it to them. Not you. Then they put in the work to develop it. So stealing it is still wrong.
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So_crates
Which disqualifies him from making any value judgements about Saint Vic or his work.
Would we trust the ruling of a judge or jury that said, at a trial, never mind the details of the crime, just tell me about the times the defendant was an upstanding citizen.
What Mike fails to understand is that if he continues to push his Weirwille over the World agenda, he going to constantly be confronted with Saint Vic's sexual indiscretions. When Saint Vic started information wasn't a few mouse clicks away. Now, a few keystrokes and anyone can find out everything they would care to know about Saint Vic, The Way, or PLAF in lurid detail. So this will be a subject Mike will be vistiting again and again.
Tell possible converts you have personal issues and that prevents you from making good value judgements about Saint Vic and the potential converts will tell you "okay" and go join the Church of Latter Day Smurfs or something.
After spending 20 years trying to find a way around the stealing others work and bearing false witness issue, you would think Mike would have better answers.
A few post back, Mike said:
In war (which this was) the rules of man can be thrown away. Abraham Lincoln did it.
Read the bible much?
We've been a war since before Eden (part of the reason the snake tempted Eve).
Were there abysmal men of the cloth before? I imagine so.
The Scribes and Pharisees, who, though they held everybody to The Law, thought they were above The Law (sound familiar? Paging Saint Vic!)
Paul, in Timothy, talks of the great falling away.
How does Saint Vic's moment in the war differ from the rest of human history?
Once again, you try to claim plagiarism is man's law. It's not. Not only does God tell us not to steal, He also tell us not to bear false witness (in this case, Saint Vic claiming he did something he didn't do, the textbook definition of plagiarism.). So it was God's law that was broken.
Isn't amazing how God, in his foreknowledge saw there was going to be a plagiarism issue and he put those commandments in the bible to solve it once and for all?
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chockfull
So to bump up this topic on "Plagiarism on the Road to Success", one thing I wanted to bring up was
American Christian Press
Dic and brother Hairy bought a printing press and got it going to put out material under the title of American Christian Press. if you think about it, this is pretty strong evidence of intent to plagiarize and distribute plagiarized material. Both had the idea that if you control what people read, then you control people.
All of the plagiarized works were published under this title. Using their own publishing company actually is the second bit of evidence in intent to plagiarize. This way no external literary or theological reviewers would be looking at any of dictor's work. Everything would be brought through a pseudo publishing process all with the final word belonging to the dictor.
You can see similar patterns in the development of Scientology and the publishing of L. Ron Hubbard's insane works as materials required for every scientologist.
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WordWolf
"AMERICAN CHRISTIAN PRESS" should not be confused with "CANADIAN CHRISTIAN PRESS." BG Leonard started that, and vpw ripped off his content and his printing company title as well. In the category of Christianity, the man had few original thoughts in his life.
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Bolshevik
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurens_Janszoon_Coster
http://theweek.com/articles/454295/johannes-gutenberg-15thcentury-con-man
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chockfull
Visual depiction of the dictor's trip to Canada to visit BG Leonard.
Edited by chockfullimage of roadster up on blocks with wheels stolen
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T-Bone
(sound of feedback from a cheap PA) attention Adolph’s Cut-Rate Liquor shoppers - will the customer who wanted to trade 4 used tires for a couple of cases of Drambuie, and the girlie magazines uhm...uhhh...my boss said we can’t do that...so ...uhm ...please return those items ...we’ll have your tires by register number 3...The deal is off...uhm ...sorry for the inconvenience.
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chockfull
No doubt. However, unlike stealing the tires off of a race car for resale value, which would be difficult to unload as you are jovially pointing out, stolen intellectual property along with purchasing a printing press allowed dictor to make Millions and mentally enslave tens of thousands with cult control tactics..
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T-Bone
The fact that wierwille plagiarized so much should be enough to make one wonder what were his real intentions.
If it was to help people understand the Bible - why not just be honest and build on the work of others that he thought were helpful - giving proper citation and then expand on that with his own insight. Surely he learned something of value in all his education that he could share with others.
And besides the big plagiarism issue with wierwille - i think his “alibi” for plagiarism of wanting to “correct the error” in other people’s works - or that that “God showed him how to put it all together to get back to the original word of God” is laughable because of the way he mangled the stuff he stole from others - showing his incompetency with biblical hermeneutics and even in simply understanding the biblical languages.
Makes me think of pirated software; when you buy it you’re probably NOT getting something that has all the major bugs worked out, access to critical security updates or tech support; I think through his own incompetency wierwille actually introduced some major “bugs” into some of the stuff he stole; as far as “updates” - I know wierwille claimed that TWI was a research and teaching ministry, and if their research actually found something that was different from what they’d been teaching then TWI would change what they teach...
...yeah - how many times has that happened?
...If you haven’t read it already - check out Penworks’ book “Undertow” - she worked in TWI’s research department - her book is a real eye-opener on how wierwille pressured the research department to align an interpretation of scripture with what he thought it should say - even when it was counter to what it said in the Greek text!
How about tech support for when you find a problem in their doctrine or practice? Your concerns were usually dismissed due to your lack of believing, your immaturity, you’re going by your five senses, or you need to get rid of all that worldly stuff in your home because it’s giving devil spirits access into your life - I mean everything gives off something - any dummy knows that -
The folks who pirate software probably don’t want you to know who they are - they just want your money...
I’ll take a wild stab on what wierwille’s intentions might have been...he insisted on everyone to call him “doctor” and that PFAL was entirely his baby from all his hard work and personal experiences. So I think he wanted more than just the money from classes, books, etc. - - he wanted the “ fame” - the admiration for all that he had done...What a two-bit money-grubbing narcissistic phony!
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Taxidev
Believe it or not, this exact thing happening is what prompted me to decide to attend a TWI fellowship. Craig was teaching a corrected teaching of something, back in the early 90s. I was listening to his tape in 1995. He said someone sent in their research on a particular point, and Craig gave it to the research department, and they found the man was correct, so Craig was teaching the corrected topic. I thought that was amazing.
But then, what he said next, I almost drove off the road - I only had a cassette player in my truck at the time. He said that any of us could send in our research if we disagreed with something. He would throw it out if we just thought is wasn't correct, we had to have research to support our view. But they would look at it, and if they found we were correct, then they would correct that teaching also.
That was something that no other religious organization ever said in my lifetime. So, that was it. I wanted to learn from the ones that knew they were still learning. Unfortunately, it didn't take long for that attitude to become perverted, and Craig's ego went through the roof - so much so that it poured off the screen of his new foundational class.
But when I heard him make that statement, I wouldn't have cared how much plagiarism had taken place in the past. All I cared about was where I was going from that point.
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Bolshevik
Maybe this thread was about how common plagiarism is? I dunno.
I remember Craig talk about how we need to build more bombs. BIGGER bombs. And how everyone is a bunch a dumb dumb ignoramouses.
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T-Bone
Hey Taxidev - sorry to burst any bubble but all that hits me as just being a marketing tactic to convey the idea that - like wierwille - they’re into finding the truth...so - sorry to disagree with you but I’ve heard enough about what’s really important to wierwille and craig when I was in the corps...
but to the general public it would be wise to convey the idea that TWI was really open to true honest research - and the masses bought it - as you testify to that...Now I would have been really surprised if the person’s research contradicted something wierwille taught....perhaps if you could be more specific on what it was that craig shared about this research from someone...
you should have heard craig go on a rant when it was time to work on our corps research papers; “don’t try to reinvent the wheel” he’d yell as he pounded on the podium “base your research paper on something from PFAL !”
two things one could infer from his rant:
1. craig elevated PFAL to the status of something so revolutionary and mechanically essential as the wheel
2. In light of #1 , he probably would not have been very interested in hearing about anything that would contradict PFAL or even to correct it.
Edited by T-BoneI will quote no more forever
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