Maybe you missed my recent confession as to WHY I practiced the Art of Dodging here, and pretty well I might add, back in 2002. . It was to get my message out undeterred.
I continued this technique all the way up to about two months ago when I gave up my hard hitting distribution campaign. I'm a lot more open to considerations now, but I still maintain my position.
Just for the record - I’ve mentioned this before - the definition for “hard hitting” as often associated with tough journalists who do their job - is uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts...so forgive me if I don’t consider your dodging and relentless promotion of a charlatan like wierwille as “hard hitting”...and honestly in my humble opinion that’s about as hard hitting as a wet noodle
Especially when you often display a flair for distorting facts or simply re-imagining an “alternate truth or facts, or history” - revisionist style ! .
and I find this odd too - when you said - “I've been at this a very long time, I was lucky to get a LOT of facts that none knew here, and I was sheltered from a lot of the BS of the Corps.”
I tend to think the stories, incidents, facts as told by former corps, staff, WOWs, etc on Grease Spot are truly hard hitting - they reveal the dark underbelly of the charlatan ! so I’m not sure if that is the BS you’re talking about?
And your proof it was a genuine revelation, beyond I said it was a genuine revelation?
And you realize of course that Spectrum 49's brilliant post would discredit Saint Vic as a MOG, don't you?
For example, when did Saint Vic ever praise someonewho wasn't doing his bidding?
And after 42 years of effort resulting in failure--not to mention others testimonials on this forum of resounding failures--I'd vote PHONEY
What else you got?
Thanks for the compliments, So_crates (and Mike, too!). The truth is: You don't always NEED what I call "extra revelation" (via the spirit) when the Word itself is revelation already (yet, in written form). While it's true that revelation (from above) will "never flow at cross-purposes" to Scripture, it still carries the same "flavor of truth" --- even at times when it seems to contradict the written Word itself.
Nevertheless, we should trust in what the Scripture says as written, for God (who authored it) will never contradict that! And this is especially true concerning the "heart" behind his exact wording, which is why I said it's important to use "written revelation" when it's available, rather than trying to go to "an empty cookie jar" --- if ya know what I mean!
And YES, So_crates! VP (according to my "expert calculation", if I may so boldly assert) was not (in God's eyes) the leader he claimedhimself to be. Although he had "many things right", he must have realized there was much more to learn!
But the problem is, that he never seemed to trust anyone else to correct his thinking (as merely appeared was his MO in PFAL). He was not as humble as he pretended to be! Although he did allude that he wanted us all to build on the Word he proclaimed after his departure, I doubt very much that would have included dismantling many things which were off the mark in PFAL itself!
Even today, TWI is STAUNCH on maintaining VP'S ORIGINAL PFAL! They will not budge an inch...even if one were to "prove it to them" via simple scripture, also using the same "research principles" --- which (by the way) are commonly known worldwide. To them, none of VP's writings may be tampered with, for they are absolute truth!
As for you, Mike: I still have a bit of patience left concerning you. We just don't know each other that well yet. (And if it's any consolation to you, please accept my apology for "poking fun at you", which I'm sure you noticed in other posts.)
Prov 16
Arrogance aimed at religion and tradition and error was not what Solomon was talking about. I want a leader who calls the BS in religion with great conviction. Naturally to a believer in such religion that LOOKS like arrogance.
Oh sure, he could have plenty of sin arrogance at times, but not in the written teachings. It was filtered out there. God and many others helped him.
***
Prov 11
VPW had many counselors and advisors. Sometime they talked him into the right decisions and sometimes they talked him into the wrong decisions. If he happened to get a revelation on an issue, then he told them to get lost. Uncle Harry told me this is how Board of Trustee meetings went. He said they often fought like cats and dogs, but if Vic said "thus saith the Lord" they shut up.
***
Rocky, I think the reason you couldn't predict this answer I gave is because you feel you can not lower yourself to even consider what I say a little. You reveal your hand here. Try listening with understanding instead of resistance and you'll understand this better.
You have the ability to temporarily PUT yourself into my argument, yet you're afraid to. Every serious High School debate team member learns to PUT themselves into an argument they don't believe to develop a flexible debating mind. You can do this. I think you're afraid to even consider what I say.
errata:
In "Try listening with understanding instead of resistance and you'll understand this better." The phrase "listening without understanding" was changed to "listening with understanding"
Even you should be able to recognize that as nothing more and nothing less than you projecting onto me. Here's the formula you set forth: "When YOU _____ it was because you thought _____."
Dude, you've projected so far and so emphatically that you --- having NO basis in fact or in my words (which you didn't quote to even try to show where you came up with the notion) for claiming I was trying to predict anything that you would say.
That's beyond bizarre.
Ok. I've made mistakes before.
Then tell me, why DID you ask me about those two scriptures? And then, why did you not comment on my response to the two verses, minus my guessing your motives?
Then tell me, why DID you ask me about those two scriptures? And then, why did you not comment on my response to the two verses, minus my guessing your motives?
How is that at all related to your need to recognize that you were doing nothing other than projecting your insecurities onto me in that previous post?
Mike, if you look through some of Steve Lortz's old posts, you'll see how he presents his ideas, clearly, coherently, so you know what he wants to say and where he's going. He hasn't stolen his material and gives credit where it's due.
There might be some things you can learn from the style of presentation - not to mention the content.
As for you, Mike: I still have a bit of patience left concerning you. We just don't know each other that well yet. (And if it's any consolation to you, please accept my apology for "poking fun at you", which I'm sure you noticed in other posts.)
Hi spectgrum49,
Thank you for your patience.You’re right about us not knowing each other. That holds for me regardingmost people here, as well, and it does impede some communications.
No need for apologies. In order to post here I have to be very able to dodge derision as well as distractions. I’ve got a very thick skin on these issues, and you didn’t come close to being offensive.
I wish you and others were NOT so sure that I notice everything here.
There was once a time here when I did do that, but I’m older now and have less time.When I post one idea with some necessary context, it usually sparks a round of many challenging postings on every possible detail I mention. I get very swamped these days here, very fast.
A few days ago it was raining, and for me that means a window cleaner holiday, so I had time and dared to post a little, then quickly got overwhelmed with multiple posters, each posting on multiple points.I sometimes have to look for the shortest, or most important point to respond to if time even permits that. And then THAT response generates another round. and complaints on the ones I missed.
I’m looking not so much for forgiveness regarding all the posts I don’t respond to or even don't see, just understanding. Is there anyone else here who gets into quandaries like this?
***
This is something I posted on Facebook to a friend who posts strong political memes that are very much against a certain political character, who’s name I will omit here.This is not a political statement; a psychological one.It could hold for almost any political character, so I blotted out the irrelevant name. But more important it fits well here too.
He posted this big flashy meme:
“The first thing in the morning I do is check if xxxx has stroked out, died, quit, or has been arrested. Does that make me evil.”
The next person posted:
“Same here! Sad but true..”
I was next with:
“MUCH sadder than most think. Could be bad for your health, a negative diet like that, especially first thing in the morning.
Why not find a positive person who can do good? Support them. Brainstorm for them. Convince others for them.
I think all this negative focus against one person will devolve and can only result in MORE negativity. Less and less good people will be elected.
Good MUST be developed and installed or xxxx is only going to be replaced by someone worse. There are plenty of worse people to get in there, but try to name ONE good person. It's hard.”
***
I think the same goes here.If people here would AGAIN take up the more lonely path of promoting positivity, instead of magnifying and perfecting an image of Pure Evil, then I think everyone’s health will be in less jeopardy. I think all this negativity hurts people. It’s way overboard IMO.
That is another reason I must limit my reading and posting.
I wonder if any real good is sought by others here. I don’t hear much of that kind of abundance coming from any hearts. (links welcome)It’s easy to be negative and hateful. It’s HARD to be positive and magnify it.
Thank you for your patience.You’re right about us not knowing each other. That holds for me regardingmost people here, as well, and it does impede some communications.
No need for apologies. In order to post here I have to be very able to dodge derision as well as distractions. I’ve got a very thick skin on these issues, and you didn’t come close to being offensive.
I wish you and others were NOT so sure that I notice everything here.
There was once a time here when I did do that, but I’m older now and have less time.When I post one idea with some necessary context, it usually sparks a round of many challenging postings on every possible detail I mention. I get very swamped these days here, very fast.
A few days ago it was raining, and for me that means a window cleaner holiday, so I had time and dared to post a little, then quickly got overwhelmed with multiple posters, each posting on multiple points.I sometimes have to look for the shortest, or most important point to respond to if time even permits that. And then THAT response generates another round. and complaints on the ones I missed.
I’m looking not so much for forgiveness regarding all the posts I don’t respond to or even don't see, just understanding. Is there anyone else here who gets into quandaries like this?
***
This is something I posted on Facebook to a friend who posts strong political memes that are very much against a certain political character, who’s name I will omit here.This is not a political statement; a psychological one.It could hold for almost any political character, so I blotted out the irrelevant name. But more important it fits well here too.
He posted this big flashy meme:
“The first thing in the morning I do is check if xxxx has stroked out, died, quit, or has been arrested. Does that make me evil.”
The next person posted:
“Same here! Sad but true..”
I was next with:
“MUCH sadder than most think. Could be bad for your health, a negative diet like that, especially first thing in the morning.
Why not find a positive person who can do good? Support them. Brainstorm for them. Convince others for them.
I think all this negative focus against one person will devolve and can only result in MORE negativity. Less and less good people will be elected.
Good MUST be developed and installed or xxxx is only going to be replaced by someone worse. There are plenty of worse people to get in there, but try to name ONE good person. It's hard.”
***
I think the same goes here.If people here would AGAIN take up the more lonely path of promoting positivity, instead of magnifying and perfecting an image of Pure Evil, then I think everyone’s health will be in less jeopardy. I think all this negativity hurts people. It’s way overboard IMO.
That is another reason I must limit my reading and posting.
I wonder if any real good is sought by others here. I don’t hear much of that kind of abundance coming from any hearts. (links welcome)It’s easy to be negative and hateful. It’s HARD to be positive and magnify it.
Mike, what are you talking about?? I think there is a lot of "good," here at the GSC. For example, if you go back, and read the threads, many people have revealed the real TWI, not the one in your imagination. Ask Sky, and DWBH. They have written extensively about TWI, under VPW, and LCM. Also, Twinky, and T-Bone, have written about their time in The Corps. Rocky, also has written about his experiences in Way World. I find most of the people who come here, speak the truth about TWI, as honestly as possible. I know I do. I had some good experiences in TWI, and some unpleasant ones. What people here discourage is Bullsheet; people have gently, and sometimes, not so gently, let me know when I am off the mark. I think most of the people who post here, are kind, patient souls, but they can "separate truth from error," in a nanosecond. If you don't want to read negative posts, be more circumspect in what you post.
Mike, what are you talking about?? I think there is a lot of "good," here at the GSC. For example, if you go back, and read the threads, many people have revealed the real TWI, not the one in your imagination. Ask Sky, and DWBH. They have written extensively about TWI, under VPW, and LCM. Also, Twinky, and T-Bone, have written about their time in The Corps. Rocky, also has written about his experiences in Way World. I find most of the people who come here, speak the truth about TWI, as honestly as possible. I know I do. I had some good experiences in TWI, and some unpleasant ones. What people here discourage is Bullsheet; people have gently, and sometimes, not so gently, let me know when I am off the mark. I think most of the people who post here, are kind, patient souls, but they can "separate truth from error," in a nanosecond. If you don't want to read negative posts, be more circumspect in what you post.
Good points, Grace - that’s pretty much what I thought too…his post hits me as just another retread of defending wierwille (without actually mentioning his name, of course) – if you check out a list of fallacies I think the post has some of that argument from repetition quality to it with a good mix of faulty generalizations and red herrings
for the benefit of newcomers perhaps a note of clarification on certain posts might help
“this post is from the campaign to repaint the whited sepulcher”
I think the same goes here.If people here would AGAIN take up the more lonely path of promoting positivity, instead of magnifying and perfecting an image of Pure Evil, then I think everyone’s health will be in less jeopardy. I think all this negativity hurts people. It’s way overboard IMO.
So, what's all this called for positivity do for the people who Saint Vic plagerized? What's this call for positivity do for the women Saint Vic forced himself on?
Where in the bible does it say "Positivity will set you free"? I can, however, point out in the bible where it says The truth will set you free (John 8:32).
Quote
I wonder if any real good is sought by others here. I don’t hear much of that kind of abundance coming from any hearts.
So, explain to me the good that can come from stealing others works and someone forcing themself on women.
Quote
(links welcome)It’s easy to be negative and hateful. It’s HARD to be positive and magnify it.
You want to talk about a Pure Evil model. Have you read any of your posts recently?
All the negitivity launched at other posters. According to you they're constantly trying to trick you, or trip you up, or attacking you.
What's your model for people in this forum?
Maybe you should try a few cc's of positivity toward other posters before you start criticizing.
I had some good experiences in TWI, and some unpleasant ones. ...
... If you don't want to read negative posts, be more circumspect in what you post.
Hi Grace,
When I post, the multiple responses, each with multiple points, makes that circumspect walk impossible, unless I limit my posts to staying away from everyone's major hot buttons. That's very difficult with the volume of points.
Avoiding hot buttons is all the more impossible when my main message is totally in opposition to the main message constantly being perfected here after almost 2 decades, which is the Pure Evil model of VPW.
***
The great good that came to grads (mostly non-Corp) was like what no organized teaching had been able to produce since the first century. That fact is totally annihilated here, and none are sensitive to the contradiction this manufactures: great praise and respect is often heaped to VPW's teachers and sources, but when they appear in written PFAL they must be opposed as Pure Evil. That is total Bullsheet that no one here wants to confront.
SURE there is some good here given to TWI captives and refugees, but that good will NOT help them with other things in life, especially if they deprogram themselves (at GSC encouraging) away from tons of that great good they did get from PFAL. Of course, this applies not to TWI newbies after 1995 who never saw the PFAL film class.
I don't see anyone here developing or pointing to any teachers that seriously threaten the devil's status quo grip on religion. If anyone thinks there IS a ministry or minister out there that can do kind of the great good PFAL did (minus Corps interference) start a thread and debate one candidate for great good against another.
Imagine that: a debate here on the great good of certain ministries and people!
Bur instead of brainstorming and searching for such truths, the Pure Evil model here demands that great effort go into HIDING the great good that is in PFAL.
***
I posted some theories recently of psychologists who are noticing in the political landscape how people there seem to have a great hunger for villainous enemies. I started noticing this same thing in my friends in the spoken word Open Mic scene I engaged in from 2002-2008.I once did an experiment to look very closely at all they wrote and spoke at one point during an election at that time. A certain candidate suddenly appeared whom nobody knew. I watched it take exactly one day and a half for them to figure out how to scream “villain” at the top or their literary lungs.
I see the same human dynamics working here.Like I said to my political friend lately on Facebook, this is not good for anyone’s mental and physical health. I’m not worried about my health; it’s for yours (plural) that I’m recommending changes. My poet friends had no concept of the truth that you can’t fight evil with more evil. Is that well known here?
***
I have a model where the great good of PFAL is quite distinct and different from the character flaws of VPW.I think I’m the only one here that can say that some certain teachings will help us all greatly.
Does anyone here (who still believes in Jesus Christ) witness aggressively any more?If so WHAT do you witness? Pre-1942 churchianity?Churchianity with a New Age twist? Is your work threatening the adversary’s kingdom in any way? Do you get great opposition to such work? Do the people who buy what you witness get deliverance and proclaim great thankfulness to you?Does anyone here still get the benefits of SIT and still ABLE to teach others?
You see, Mike, it's not the purpose of this site to create a "pure evil model" of Wierwille. The purpose of this site is to expose what was and is the reality of the inner workings of The Way ministry. That reality is not always pretty. So, continue on to argue on VPW's behalf if you must, but be aware that this site is about much more than you or me or V.P. Wierwille.
So, explain to me the good that can come from stealing others works ...
Please allow me to address one point at a time.Why do you insist on smashing so many things together?
To further eliminate multiple points I will deliberately overlook the word "stealing" because I think you already know my answer. If you don't I'll pray for you.
So, in essence you wrote: "...explain to me the good that can come from "discovering" others works ..."
Benefit #1 - The many sources of VPW had some error mixed in with extremely good points. God's revelation to VPW was not "divine dictation" but primarily revelation of what exactly was good in their works and and what was error in their works.
Benefit #2 - The good points in VPW's sources would have NEVER made it to me or you. I'll bet my life on that. They would have been lost in churchianity and eventually nullified. None of those earlier teachers had the wherwithall and technology and chutzpah to face down the adversary resident in all churches and distribute those points around the world to Baby Boomers fed up with religion.
BTW, it’s this benefit that inspired my substitution above of “discovering” for “stealing.” Get it?Dis-covering ?
***
Now, because I have a little time I go through your use of “stealing.”
God owned the whole world, but gave it to Adam, and Adam gave it to the adversary. But God still owned the revelations He gave to VPW’s sources. God gave VPW permission to use the revelations and the guidance to steer away from stuffy, churchy, formal citations that would not be needed by new students, clutter up their learning experience, and expose them to the errors in those other writings.
I must have posted the above points about 25 times here if not more. Did you see them? Do you remember them now?Should I pray for you memory?
The purpose of this site is to expose what was and is the reality of the inner workings of The Way ministry. That reality is not always pretty.
The Pure Evil model negates all places where the OUTER workings of the ministry WERE pretty. There was great good that ministry delivered to new people.
YES, the inner workings went total crap eventually. But that also happened to every city where the Word thrived in the first century. I've heard that it only took on the average of ten years for that to happen. TWI did pretty good by those standards.
How is that at all related to your need to recognize that you were doing nothing other than projecting your insecurities onto me in that previous post?
I know I wasn't projecting. Others here are prone to think alike. I'm not at all impressed with such unanimity. I still think it's a good guess.
Did you yet answer me as to why you DID ask me the 2 scripture questions? Were you meekly seeking learning from me? I'm running out of guesses.
If you did answer I missed it in this flurry. Please point it out, but (please) not with a fresh point cluster.
Did you answer me at why you could not predict my answer to the scripture questions?
Did you answer me at why you had no comments on my answers, but went straight for the minor point of projection instead?
Being able to predict my answer should have not been that hard. To see this, please go back and read your questions and my answers again. There was nothing surprising in my answer. It contained several things I had posted many times.
Are you immune to projection? I think you projected projection onto me. If I got a handful of votes in agreement will you seek projection therapy? I'm half joking here.
So, in essence you wrote: "...explain to me the good that can come from "discovering" others works ..."
Don't change the meaning of what I wrote.
I wrote "explain to me the good that can come from stealing others works and someone forcing themself on women."
I notice you left out the part about Saint Vic forcing himself on women.
Rather intellectually dishonest don't you think?
5 hours ago, Mike said:
God owned the whole world, but gave it to Adam, and Adam gave it to the adversary. But God still owned the revelations He gave to VPW’s sources. God gave VPW permission to use the revelations and the guidance to steer away from stuffy, churchy, formal citations that would not be needed by new students, clutter up their learning experience, and expose them to the errors in those other writings.
I must have posted the above points about 25 times here if not more. Did you see them? Do you remember them now?Should I pray for you memory?
Of course I remember it.
I also remember its been pointed out the irrationality of your position because if God owns everything than its okay to steal a car.
That in spite of the fact God commands us not to steal.
There's also the small matter of your position negating Christ sacrifice for us. What was to prevent Christ from stealing from the chuch poor box then claiming it wasnt stealing because, "God own everything, I'm the son of God, therefore I really own this. Also, God gave me permission."
The second, most obvious question, How do you know God gave him permission to steal others works?
Right... it's NOT a democracy, but you vote "genuine."
TWI was never supposed to be a democracy or ever held up as one. That would make it totally ineffective. I'm glad it was a (somewhat) benign dictatorship for a while. It had to be to get the job done. Is the US military a democracy? Should it be?
No! I explained all my ways of handling your post in my response to you and in the most recent responses over the night and morning.
To be intellectually honest in my opinion, you could go back to my response to you and my recent pertinent responses to others (do you even read them?).
Hint: multiple posters, multiple points, limited time, priorities, etc.
I think you are capable, but only if you want to understand me. Do you? Or are you only interested in influencing readers with your posts to me, and care not about the data and logic? Just wondering?
TWI was never supposed to be a democracy or ever held up as one. That would make it totally ineffective. I'm glad it was a (somewhat) benign dictatorship for a while. It had to be to get the job done. Is the US military a democracy? Should it be?
At the cost of how many peoples lives? How many women had Saint Vic force himself on them in the name of getting the job done?
No! I explained all my ways of handling your post in my response to you and in the most recent responses over the night and morning.
No you didn't. You left out half the question and went off on a tangent. An intellectually honest person would have answered the whole statement.
Quote
To be intellectually honest in my opinion,
Once again, you attempt to set yourself as the standard.
Well, I don't care what your opinion is. I care what God's opinion is.
Responding to half a statement is not only a sin of omission, it's intellectually dishonest. An intellectually dishonest person lecturing about intellectual honesty is like a Saint Vic lecturing on thou shall not commit adultry.
Quote
you could go back to my response to you and my recent pertinent responses to others (do you even read them?).
Don't have to. The point has nothing to do with previous post.
Your just continuing your intellectual dishonesty by attempting to cloud the issue.
The point is: you intentionally ignored something that would disprove your claim. Your responded to half a statement which is intellectually dishonest.
Quote
Hint: multiple posters, multiple points, limited time, priorities, etc.
Yah, yah, yah. Same excuses. None of which address the point.
I wrote "explain to me the good that can come from stealing others works and someone forcing themself on women."
You had enough time to address the first part (and then wait for and write other posts), now why didn't you have time to address the someone forcing themselves on women part?
All your proving is that your "not enough time" excuse is another way of dodging.
Quote
I think you are capable, but only if you want to understand me. Do you?
You come across loud and clear: You have little time. When some people say they're busy (another way of saying I have little time) what they really mean is that what they want you to address isn't a priority. And I can see why its not a priority, the theme running through all your post:
Everyone else evil, Saint Vic good. Everyone else no excuse, Saint Vic must be excused.
We always have time for things that are important to us. For you, it's your hero worship of Saint Vic. For me, it's getting out the truth about Saint Vic.
As I told you once before, you plead for the positive is like a jury saying we don't want to hear about the crimes committed, tell us only what a model citizen the defendant was.
Quote
Or are you only interested in influencing readers with your posts to me, and care not about the data and logic? Just wondering?
Your always complaining people here are trying to trick you. Who's trying to trick who here?
Data? Logic ? Is your claim is that its logical to address half a post with an argument that's been disproven 25 times (I notice you didn't address my rebuttal, but chose to go off on this smoke screen) and ignore the other half that disproves your claim?
So your saying its logical to be intellectually dishonest?
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T-Bone
Just for the record - I’ve mentioned this before - the definition for “hard hitting” as often associated with tough journalists who do their job - is uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in
Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, what are you talking about?? I think there is a lot of "good," here at the GSC. For example, if you go back, and read the threads, many people have revealed the real TWI, not the one in your i
DontWorryBeHappy
Hey Mike: Don’t flatter yourself with your fantasy that I am your “opponent” in some grand “debate”. I am NOT your opponent. I feel deep sorrow and pity for you, not opposition. I have already to
TLC
thanks.
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T-Bone
Just for the record - I’ve mentioned this before - the definition for “hard hitting” as often associated with tough journalists who do their job - is uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts...so forgive me if I don’t consider your dodging and relentless promotion of a charlatan like wierwille as “hard hitting”...and honestly in my humble opinion that’s about as hard hitting as a wet noodle
Especially when you often display a flair for distorting facts or simply re-imagining an “alternate truth or facts, or history” - revisionist style ! .
and I find this odd too - when you said - “I've been at this a very long time, I was lucky to get a LOT of facts that none knew here, and I was sheltered from a lot of the BS of the Corps.”
I tend to think the stories, incidents, facts as told by former corps, staff, WOWs, etc on Grease Spot are truly hard hitting - they reveal the dark underbelly of the charlatan ! so I’m not sure if that is the BS you’re talking about?
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spectrum49
Thanks for the compliments, So_crates (and Mike, too!). The truth is: You don't always NEED what I call "extra revelation" (via the spirit) when the Word itself is revelation already (yet, in written form). While it's true that revelation (from above) will "never flow at cross-purposes" to Scripture, it still carries the same "flavor of truth" --- even at times when it seems to contradict the written Word itself.
Nevertheless, we should trust in what the Scripture says as written, for God (who authored it) will never contradict that! And this is especially true concerning the "heart" behind his exact wording, which is why I said it's important to use "written revelation" when it's available, rather than trying to go to "an empty cookie jar" --- if ya know what I mean!
And YES, So_crates! VP (according to my "expert calculation", if I may so boldly assert) was not (in God's eyes) the leader he claimed himself to be. Although he had "many things right", he must have realized there was much more to learn!
But the problem is, that he never seemed to trust anyone else to correct his thinking (as merely appeared was his MO in PFAL). He was not as humble as he pretended to be! Although he did allude that he wanted us all to build on the Word he proclaimed after his departure, I doubt very much that would have included dismantling many things which were off the mark in PFAL itself!
Even today, TWI is STAUNCH on maintaining VP'S ORIGINAL PFAL! They will not budge an inch...even if one were to "prove it to them" via simple scripture, also using the same "research principles" --- which (by the way) are commonly known worldwide. To them, none of VP's writings may be tampered with, for they are absolute truth!
As for you, Mike: I still have a bit of patience left concerning you. We just don't know each other that well yet. (And if it's any consolation to you, please accept my apology for "poking fun at you", which I'm sure you noticed in other posts.)
Spec
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Rocky
This is Mike.
I hope he doesn't take offense. If he's honest, he'd embrace it.
Of course, Mike is still welcome here.
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Mike
Ok. I've made mistakes before.
Edited by MikeThen tell me, why DID you ask me about those two scriptures? And then, why did you not comment on my response to the two verses, minus my guessing your motives?
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Rocky
How is that at all related to your need to recognize that you were doing nothing other than projecting your insecurities onto me in that previous post?
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Twinky
Mike, if you look through some of Steve Lortz's old posts, you'll see how he presents his ideas, clearly, coherently, so you know what he wants to say and where he's going. He hasn't stolen his material and gives credit where it's due.
There might be some things you can learn from the style of presentation - not to mention the content.
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Mike
Hi spectgrum49,
Thank you for your patience. You’re right about us not knowing each other. That holds for me regarding most people here, as well, and it does impede some communications.
No need for apologies. In order to post here I have to be very able to dodge derision as well as distractions. I’ve got a very thick skin on these issues, and you didn’t come close to being offensive.
I wish you and others were NOT so sure that I notice everything here.
There was once a time here when I did do that, but I’m older now and have less time. When I post one idea with some necessary context, it usually sparks a round of many challenging postings on every possible detail I mention. I get very swamped these days here, very fast.
A few days ago it was raining, and for me that means a window cleaner holiday, so I had time and dared to post a little, then quickly got overwhelmed with multiple posters, each posting on multiple points. I sometimes have to look for the shortest, or most important point to respond to if time even permits that. And then THAT response generates another round. and complaints on the ones I missed.
I’m looking not so much for forgiveness regarding all the posts I don’t respond to or even don't see, just understanding. Is there anyone else here who gets into quandaries like this?
***
This is something I posted on Facebook to a friend who posts strong political memes that are very much against a certain political character, who’s name I will omit here. This is not a political statement; a psychological one. It could hold for almost any political character, so I blotted out the irrelevant name. But more important it fits well here too.
He posted this big flashy meme:
“The first thing in the morning I do is check if xxxx has stroked out, died, quit, or has been arrested. Does that make me evil.”
The next person posted:
“Same here! Sad but true..”
I was next with:
“MUCH sadder than most think. Could be bad for your health, a negative diet like that, especially first thing in the morning.
Why not find a positive person who can do good? Support them. Brainstorm for them. Convince others for them.
I think all this negative focus against one person will devolve and can only result in MORE negativity. Less and less good people will be elected.
Good MUST be developed and installed or xxxx is only going to be replaced by someone worse. There are plenty of worse people to get in there, but try to name ONE good person. It's hard.”
***
I think the same goes here. If people here would AGAIN take up the more lonely path of promoting positivity, instead of magnifying and perfecting an image of Pure Evil, then I think everyone’s health will be in less jeopardy. I think all this negativity hurts people. It’s way overboard IMO.
That is another reason I must limit my reading and posting.
I wonder if any real good is sought by others here. I don’t hear much of that kind of abundance coming from any hearts. (links welcome) It’s easy to be negative and hateful. It’s HARD to be positive and magnify it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Mike, what are you talking about?? I think there is a lot of "good," here at the GSC. For example, if you go back, and read the threads, many people have revealed the real TWI, not the one in your imagination. Ask Sky, and DWBH. They have written extensively about TWI, under VPW, and LCM. Also, Twinky, and T-Bone, have written about their time in The Corps. Rocky, also has written about his experiences in Way World. I find most of the people who come here, speak the truth about TWI, as honestly as possible. I know I do. I had some good experiences in TWI, and some unpleasant ones. What people here discourage is Bullsheet; people have gently, and sometimes, not so gently, let me know when I am off the mark. I think most of the people who post here, are kind, patient souls, but they can "separate truth from error," in a nanosecond. If you don't want to read negative posts, be more circumspect in what you post.
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T-Bone
Good points, Grace - that’s pretty much what I thought too…his post hits me as just another retread of defending wierwille (without actually mentioning his name, of course) – if you check out a list of fallacies I think the post has some of that argument from repetition quality to it with a good mix of faulty generalizations and red herrings
for the benefit of newcomers perhaps a note of clarification on certain posts might help
“this post is from the campaign to repaint the whited sepulcher”
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Twinky
Hilarious!!!
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So_crates
So, what's all this called for positivity do for the people who Saint Vic plagerized? What's this call for positivity do for the women Saint Vic forced himself on?
Where in the bible does it say "Positivity will set you free"? I can, however, point out in the bible where it says The truth will set you free (John 8:32).
So, explain to me the good that can come from stealing others works and someone forcing themself on women.
You want to talk about a Pure Evil model. Have you read any of your posts recently?
All the negitivity launched at other posters. According to you they're constantly trying to trick you, or trip you up, or attacking you.
What's your model for people in this forum?
Maybe you should try a few cc's of positivity toward other posters before you start criticizing.
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Mike
Hi Grace,
When I post, the multiple responses, each with multiple points, makes that circumspect walk impossible, unless I limit my posts to staying away from everyone's major hot buttons. That's very difficult with the volume of points.
Avoiding hot buttons is all the more impossible when my main message is totally in opposition to the main message constantly being perfected here after almost 2 decades, which is the Pure Evil model of VPW.
***
The great good that came to grads (mostly non-Corp) was like what no organized teaching had been able to produce since the first century. That fact is totally annihilated here, and none are sensitive to the contradiction this manufactures: great praise and respect is often heaped to VPW's teachers and sources, but when they appear in written PFAL they must be opposed as Pure Evil. That is total Bullsheet that no one here wants to confront.
SURE there is some good here given to TWI captives and refugees, but that good will NOT help them with other things in life, especially if they deprogram themselves (at GSC encouraging) away from tons of that great good they did get from PFAL. Of course, this applies not to TWI newbies after 1995 who never saw the PFAL film class.
I don't see anyone here developing or pointing to any teachers that seriously threaten the devil's status quo grip on religion. If anyone thinks there IS a ministry or minister out there that can do kind of the great good PFAL did (minus Corps interference) start a thread and debate one candidate for great good against another.
Imagine that: a debate here on the great good of certain ministries and people!
Bur instead of brainstorming and searching for such truths, the Pure Evil model here demands that great effort go into HIDING the great good that is in PFAL.
***
I posted some theories recently of psychologists who are noticing in the political landscape how people there seem to have a great hunger for villainous enemies. I started noticing this same thing in my friends in the spoken word Open Mic scene I engaged in from 2002-2008. I once did an experiment to look very closely at all they wrote and spoke at one point during an election at that time. A certain candidate suddenly appeared whom nobody knew. I watched it take exactly one day and a half for them to figure out how to scream “villain” at the top or their literary lungs.
I see the same human dynamics working here. Like I said to my political friend lately on Facebook, this is not good for anyone’s mental and physical health. I’m not worried about my health; it’s for yours (plural) that I’m recommending changes. My poet friends had no concept of the truth that you can’t fight evil with more evil. Is that well known here?
***
I have a model where the great good of PFAL is quite distinct and different from the character flaws of VPW. I think I’m the only one here that can say that some certain teachings will help us all greatly.
Does anyone here (who still believes in Jesus Christ) witness aggressively any more? If so WHAT do you witness? Pre-1942 churchianity? Churchianity with a New Age twist? Is your work threatening the adversary’s kingdom in any way? Do you get great opposition to such work? Do the people who buy what you witness get deliverance and proclaim great thankfulness to you? Does anyone here still get the benefits of SIT and still ABLE to teach others?
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waysider
Ahhhh. The Pure Evil Model. Yes, indeed.
The straw man to rival all other straw men.
You see, Mike, it's not the purpose of this site to create a "pure evil model" of Wierwille. The purpose of this site is to expose what was and is the reality of the inner workings of The Way ministry. That reality is not always pretty. So, continue on to argue on VPW's behalf if you must, but be aware that this site is about much more than you or me or V.P. Wierwille.
Edited by waysiderremove extra word.
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Mike
Please allow me to address one point at a time. Why do you insist on smashing so many things together?
To further eliminate multiple points I will deliberately overlook the word "stealing" because I think you already know my answer. If you don't I'll pray for you.
So, in essence you wrote: "...explain to me the good that can come from "discovering" others works ..."
Benefit #1 - The many sources of VPW had some error mixed in with extremely good points. God's revelation to VPW was not "divine dictation" but primarily revelation of what exactly was good in their works and and what was error in their works.
Benefit #2 - The good points in VPW's sources would have NEVER made it to me or you. I'll bet my life on that. They would have been lost in churchianity and eventually nullified. None of those earlier teachers had the wherwithall and technology and chutzpah to face down the adversary resident in all churches and distribute those points around the world to Baby Boomers fed up with religion.
BTW, it’s this benefit that inspired my substitution above of “discovering” for “stealing.” Get it? Dis-covering ?
***
Now, because I have a little time I go through your use of “stealing.”
God owned the whole world, but gave it to Adam, and Adam gave it to the adversary. But God still owned the revelations He gave to VPW’s sources. God gave VPW permission to use the revelations and the guidance to steer away from stuffy, churchy, formal citations that would not be needed by new students, clutter up their learning experience, and expose them to the errors in those other writings.
I must have posted the above points about 25 times here if not more. Did you see them? Do you remember them now? Should I pray for you memory?
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Mike
The Pure Evil model negates all places where the OUTER workings of the ministry WERE pretty. There was great good that ministry delivered to new people.
YES, the inner workings went total crap eventually. But that also happened to every city where the Word thrived in the first century. I've heard that it only took on the average of ten years for that to happen. TWI did pretty good by those standards.
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Mike
I know I wasn't projecting. Others here are prone to think alike. I'm not at all impressed with such unanimity. I still think it's a good guess.
Did you yet answer me as to why you DID ask me the 2 scripture questions? Were you meekly seeking learning from me? I'm running out of guesses.
If you did answer I missed it in this flurry. Please point it out, but (please) not with a fresh point cluster.
Did you answer me at why you could not predict my answer to the scripture questions?
Did you answer me at why you had no comments on my answers, but went straight for the minor point of projection instead?
Being able to predict my answer should have not been that hard. To see this, please go back and read your questions and my answers again. There was nothing surprising in my answer. It contained several things I had posted many times.
Are you immune to projection? I think you projected projection onto me. If I got a handful of votes in agreement will you seek projection therapy? I'm half joking here.
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So_crates
Don't change the meaning of what I wrote.
I wrote "explain to me the good that can come from stealing others works and someone forcing themself on women."
I notice you left out the part about Saint Vic forcing himself on women.
Rather intellectually dishonest don't you think?
Of course I remember it.
I also remember its been pointed out the irrationality of your position because if God owns everything than its okay to steal a car.
That in spite of the fact God commands us not to steal.
There's also the small matter of your position negating Christ sacrifice for us. What was to prevent Christ from stealing from the chuch poor box then claiming it wasnt stealing because, "God own everything, I'm the son of God, therefore I really own this. Also, God gave me permission."
The second, most obvious question, How do you know God gave him permission to steal others works?
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Mike
TWI was never supposed to be a democracy or ever held up as one. That would make it totally ineffective. I'm glad it was a (somewhat) benign dictatorship for a while. It had to be to get the job done. Is the US military a democracy? Should it be?
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Mike
No! I explained all my ways of handling your post in my response to you and in the most recent responses over the night and morning.
To be intellectually honest in my opinion, you could go back to my response to you and my recent pertinent responses to others (do you even read them?).
Hint: multiple posters, multiple points, limited time, priorities, etc.
I think you are capable, but only if you want to understand me. Do you? Or are you only interested in influencing readers with your posts to me, and care not about the data and logic? Just wondering?
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So_crates
At the cost of how many peoples lives? How many women had Saint Vic force himself on them in the name of getting the job done?
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Mike
I'm sorry but I've run out of time for now. Things to do.
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waysider
Totally irrelevant and distracting from the discussion.
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So_crates
No you didn't. You left out half the question and went off on a tangent. An intellectually honest person would have answered the whole statement.
Once again, you attempt to set yourself as the standard.
Well, I don't care what your opinion is. I care what God's opinion is.
Responding to half a statement is not only a sin of omission, it's intellectually dishonest. An intellectually dishonest person lecturing about intellectual honesty is like a Saint Vic lecturing on thou shall not commit adultry.
Don't have to. The point has nothing to do with previous post.
Your just continuing your intellectual dishonesty by attempting to cloud the issue.
The point is: you intentionally ignored something that would disprove your claim. Your responded to half a statement which is intellectually dishonest.
Yah, yah, yah. Same excuses. None of which address the point.
I wrote "explain to me the good that can come from stealing others works and someone forcing themself on women."
You had enough time to address the first part (and then wait for and write other posts), now why didn't you have time to address the someone forcing themselves on women part?
All your proving is that your "not enough time" excuse is another way of dodging.
You come across loud and clear: You have little time. When some people say they're busy (another way of saying I have little time) what they really mean is that what they want you to address isn't a priority. And I can see why its not a priority, the theme running through all your post:
Everyone else evil, Saint Vic good. Everyone else no excuse, Saint Vic must be excused.
We always have time for things that are important to us. For you, it's your hero worship of Saint Vic. For me, it's getting out the truth about Saint Vic.
As I told you once before, you plead for the positive is like a jury saying we don't want to hear about the crimes committed, tell us only what a model citizen the defendant was.
Your always complaining people here are trying to trick you. Who's trying to trick who here?
Data? Logic ? Is your claim is that its logical to address half a post with an argument that's been disproven 25 times (I notice you didn't address my rebuttal, but chose to go off on this smoke screen) and ignore the other half that disproves your claim?
So your saying its logical to be intellectually dishonest?
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