Who do you love?

[rrobs]

1 Cor 13:13,

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Faith heals (Matt 9:22, Acts 3:16, Acts 14:9, et. al.), sins forgiven (Matt 9:2), hearts purified (Acts 15:9),  moves mountains (Matt 17:20), it justifies (Rom 3:26), and much, much more. Bottom line; faith is a wonderful thing to have. It enables all born again believers to receive into manifestation all the  things God has made available to them.

Hope is pretty good too. Let’s face it, things don’t always go the way we’d like them to go. Life can be cruel indeed, despite our best efforts to believe God. But if you have the hope of Christ’s return and his setting up the new heavens and new earth, then those days are fewer and less intense. This world is not fair, nor will it ever be fair. Sometimes, terrible things happen that you don’t deserve. The reality; it can’t be helped in this world. So looking ahead gives comfort and peace. So hope, along with faith, is a very good thing God gave us in his word.

But as good as faith and hope are, according to 1 Cor 13:13, charity (agape) is the greatest. What makes is it that is greater than faith and hope? That is the subject of the first 12 verses of 1 Corinthians 13, and is worth a read.

Here is the crux of the matter;

1 Jn 4:10-11: "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another."

Does this mean you should love even those brothers who disagree with your doctrine? Absolutely. “One another” is pretty simple. That is who God exhorts you to love. There are no conditions attached in these verses.

The standard for that?

Col 3:13: "Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye."

What did Christ forgive you of? Anything less than the next guy? Have you, who have been wronged, never wrong somebody else? We all do the same things in the flesh (Rom 2:1). 

It’s hard to do with some believers, but God clearly wants his children to love and forgive each other. No point in trying to come up with reasons to not love this brother or that brother. It’s patently against God’s will. Better to not ask questions, just love and forgive.

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by rrobs
typo

[Bolshevik]

[Twinky]

rrobs, you're welcome to go and speak to my sister.  Exemplary Christian that she is, she lets me know that I am a vile and unforgivable person because, it seems, I called her a name when we were both little kids, thereby totally ruining her entire life.  I'm talking 50 years or more ago.

[Rocky]

On 7/22/2017 at 5:07 PM, rrobs said:

1 Cor 13:13,

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Faith heals (Matt 9:22, Acts 3:16, Acts 14:9, et. al.), sins forgiven (Matt 9:2), hearts purified (Acts 15:9),  moves mountains (Matt 17:20), it justifies (Rom 3:26), and much, much more. Bottom line; faith is a wonderful thing to have. It enables all born again believers to receive into manifestation all the  things God has made available to them.

Hope is pretty good too. Let’s face it, things don’t always go the way we’d like them to go. Life can be cruel indeed, despite our best efforts to believe God. But if you have the hope of Christ’s return and his setting up the new heavens and new earth, then those days are fewer and less intense. This world is not fair, nor will it ever be fair. Sometimes, terrible things happen that you don’t deserve. The reality; it can’t be helped in this world. So looking ahead gives comfort and peace. So hope, along with faith, is a very good thing God gave us in his word.

But as good as faith and hope are, according to 1 Cor 13:13, charity (agape) is the greatest. What makes is it that is greater than faith and hope? That is the subject of the first 12 verses of 1 Corinthians 13, and is worth a read.

Here is the crux of the matter;

1 Jn 4:10-11: "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another."

Does this mean you should love even those brothers who disagree with your doctrine? Absolutely. “One another” is pretty simple. That is who God exhorts you to love. There are no conditions attached in these verses.

The standard for that?

Col 3:13: "Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye."

What did Christ forgive you of? Anything less than the next guy? Have you, who have been wronged, never wrong somebody else? We all do the same things in the flesh (Rom 2:1). 

It’s hard to do with some believers, but God clearly wants his children to love and forgive each other. No point in trying to come up with reasons to not love this brother or that brother. It’s patently against God’s will. Better to not ask questions, just love and forgive.

 

The problem with these passages, is that you presented them as something you believe others should do. Have you ever considered that being more concerned with whether others are conducting themselves out of love, or being loving, or doing things lovingly (etc.) than what you yourself measure up to that standard ... may not be what the scriptures are getting at?

Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Just a thought.

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, Twinky said:

rrobs, you're welcome to go and speak to my sister.  Exemplary Christian that she is, she lets me know that I am a vile and unforgivable person because, it seems, I called her a name when we were both little kids, thereby totally ruining her entire life.  I'm talking 50 years or more ago.

It's awful that you have to go through that. I can relate.

[rrobs]

On 7/22/2017 at 5:19 PM, Bolshevik said:

OK. Let's discourse. What is your opinion on the subject?

[rrobs]

54 minutes ago, Rocky said:

The problem with these passages, is that you presented them as something you believe others should do. Have you ever considered that being more concerned with whether others are conducting themselves out of love, or being loving, or doing things lovingly (etc.) than what you yourself measure up to that standard ... may not be what the scriptures are getting at?

Matthew 7:1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Just a thought.

I don't give a rat's a.s what others do.

BTW, you wouldn't be judging me now, would you?

[rrobs]

2 hours ago, Twinky said:

rrobs, you're welcome to go and speak to my sister.  Exemplary Christian that she is, she lets me know that I am a vile and unforgivable person because, it seems, I called her a name when we were both little kids, thereby totally ruining her entire life.  I'm talking 50 years or more ago.

Sounds like it might have ruined your life also. Sorry to hear that but don't worry, God forgives you.

[Bolshevik]

28 minutes ago, rrobs said:

OK. Let's discourse. What is your opinion on the subject?

That was more commentary than discourse.  

But yes, I forgive you.  

[rrobs]

9 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

That was more commentary than discourse.  

But yes, I forgive you.  

That's all you have to say about it? I think there were more words on that protest sign.

Nonetheless, I'll try to get a real discussion started with you. How would you have put it so as to be a discussion and not a commentary?

[T-Bone]

 another thought to add to the passage Rocky brought up

In Matthew 18, Jesus Christ tells us there’s a whole lot more to forgiveness than just granting some kind of clemency to those who’ve wronged us - because that will frustrate the reconciliation process - which is the whole point of forgiveness anyway if you think about it.

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector....Matthew 18:15-17

I think even Ephesians 4:26 may be related to this: 

BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

In other words - use the energy of your anger to work things out between you and someone else - rather than let it build up inside you - like carrying a grudge, growing resentment, etc.

In my experience I’ve found that just forgiving someone who has wronged me rather than trying the reconciliation process of Matthew 18 has many times left me feeling frustrated and bitter and the wrongdoer doesn’t have a clue of the harm they have done and probably doesn’t see the need to change their ways. 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by T-Bone
Clarity

[Bolshevik]

35 minutes ago, rrobs said:

That's all you have to say about it? I think there were more words on that protest sign.

Nonetheless, I'll try to get a real discussion started with you. How would you have put it so as to be a discussion and not a commentary?

I don't think I have much more to add than what others have already told you.

You're initial post is, maybe dualistic.  Maybe another term would be better.  

The initial post talks of love but is controlling.  The manipulative nature of the post negates any good in it.  IMO.

Maybe you see that, maybe you don't.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

It's awful that you have to go through that. I can relate.

Rocky, you made me laugh, and I thank you for that!!  

[rrobs]

31 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I don't think I have much more to add than what others have already told you.

You're initial post is, maybe dualistic.  Maybe another term would be better.  

The initial post talks of love but is controlling.  The manipulative nature of the post negates any good in it.  IMO.

Maybe you see that, maybe you don't.

What, exactly, did I write that leads you to believe I'm controlling and manipulative. For starters, if I were trying to control and manipulate people, do you really think I'd try to do it here? After all, GSC folks seem to a pretty discerning and independent lot from what I can tell.

As far as I can tell from the verses I quoted, God exhorts us to love and forgive one another. Does he control or manipulate people to do that? I think he just says what is best for us and let's us make up our mind. If I hold out a tootsie roll out to you and you take it, does that make me controlling or manipulative?

Maybe you could give me your take on all of the verses from the original post. Maybe we are not supposed to love and forgive one another. Tell me why we shouldn't. If it makes sense, I'll change my believing accordingly.

Edited November 11, 2017 by rrobs
typo

[Bolshevik]

I'll let you google "free candy" under images so you can make you own discerning decision.  

I was referring to your post and not you.  

[rrobs]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

I'll let you google "free candy" under images so you can make you own discerning decision.  

I was referring to your post and not you.  

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I'll let you google "free candy" under images so you can make you own discerning decision.  

I was referring to your post and not you.  

First of all, I really have no idea who at GSC believes the word and who doesn't. I don't care other than if you don't believe the scriptures then there is no point in discussing them, is there? On the other hand, if you do believe them then I repeat my statement:

"Maybe you could give me your take on all of the verses from the original post. Maybe we are not supposed to love and forgive one another. Tell me why we shouldn't. If it makes sense, I'll change my believing accordingly."

If you can't or don't want to do that, then you and I are done with this one. Maybe we'll do another one down the road.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

Twinky, you make me laugh, and think.  Tell your sister to get over herself; I think you are a peach!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

 another thought to add to the passage Rocky brought up

In Matthew 18, Jesus Christ tells us there’s a whole lot more to forgiveness than just granting some kind of clemency to those who’ve wronged us - because that will frustrate the reconciliation process - which is the whole point of forgiveness anyway if you think about it.

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector....Matthew 18:15-17

I think even Ephesians 4:26 may be related to this: 

BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

In other words - use the energy of your anger to work things out between you and someone else - rather than let it build up inside you - like carrying a grudge, growing resentment, etc.

In my experience I’ve found that just forgiving someone who has wronged me rather than trying the reconciliation process of Matthew 18 has many times left me feeling frustrated and bitter and the wrongdoer doesn’t have a clue of the harm they have done and probably doesn’t see the need to change their ways. 

 

T-Bone, "...change their ways"?  T-Bone, many people don't want to change their ways; or am I reading something out of context??  

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, Grace Valerie Claire said:

T-Bone, "...change their ways"?  T-Bone, many people don't want to change their ways; or am I reading something out of context??  

Grace, I hear ya - there’s a part of human nature that doesn’t like to swallow pride, or reconsider the way one handles business or relationships  - but the directive in Matthew 18 tells us to challenge that tendency in the one who is at fault....if you look at the usage of “repent” in the Bible - it really goes along this same line .

i think repentance is an integral part of the Christian lifestyle - otherwise verses that say wherefore , put away lying or let him that stole , steal no more are pointless.

Edited November 11, 2017 by T-Bone
Clarity

[Bolshevik]

2 hours ago, rrobs said:

First of all, I really have no idea who at GSC believes the word and who doesn't. I don't care other than if you don't believe the scriptures then there is no point in discussing them, is there? On the other hand, if you do believe them then I repeat my statement:

"Maybe you could give me your take on all of the verses from the original post. Maybe we are not supposed to love and forgive one another. Tell me why we shouldn't. If it makes sense, I'll change my believing accordingly."

If you can't or don't want to do that, then you and I are done with this one. Maybe we'll do another one down the road.

Sure people who don't believe them discuss them.

But what do you mean by believe them?  Do you believe you do?

I'm noting you're using "The Word" and "scriptures" interchangeably.  Do they mean the same thing to you?

[Rocky]

4 hours ago, rrobs said:

I don't give a rat's a.s what others do.

BTW, you wouldn't be judging me now, would you?

Nope. Just reflecting on the words you wrote. I can say that the words you wrote seem to be geared more toward telling others what to do than to demonstrate that that's how you live your life.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

2 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Grace, I hear ya - there’s a part of human nature that doesn’t like to swallow pride, or reconsider the way one handles business or relationships  - but the directive in Matthew 18 tells us to challenge that tendency in the one who is at fault....if you look at the usage of “repent” in the Bible - it really goes along this same line .

i think repentance is an integral part of the Christian lifestyle - otherwise verses that say wherefore , put away lying or let him that stole , steal no more are pointless.

T-Bone, please forgive me!!  I was reading something out of context.  Yes, I agree repentance is vital in a Christian's walk with God.  Oftentimes I think of repenting as being similar to forgiving.  Sometimes I have to work really hard at forgiving others; but if God can forgive me for my sins, surely I can at least try to forgive others for theirs.  

[Grace Valerie Claire]

7 hours ago, Twinky said:

rrobs, you're welcome to go and speak to my sister.  Exemplary Christian that she is, she lets me know that I am a vile and unforgivable person because, it seems, I called her a name when we were both little kids, thereby totally ruining her entire life.  I'm talking 50 years or more ago.

Twinky, if my sister was like that, I would probably tell her to go fluck herself, and then start a conversation with her.  My sister and I have spats, and then a minute later, we carry on a conversation.  I love my sister dearly, but we do drive each other nuts sometimes.

 

[Twinky]

It's much more deeply seated than that, Grace. 

Sis has some psychological problems, and I am the unwitting focus for these.  It is absolutely nothing to do with me.    She has some sort of anger management issues (I believe) and I am a "safe" focus for these, where she dare not express them to the person(s) concerned.  I have sought counselling/reconciliation with the aid of a totally independent minister associate, my Mum's minister, whom I hardly know (my sister would know her much better) - it was a disaster and the minister was shocked at the violence of sis's litany of issues.

I believe it is a spiritual issue.  I (and others) pray for her, and for the other people caught up in this.  It causes much deep hurt within family and friends.  But there is nothing to be done until she herself recognises that she has a problem that needs to be addressed in some way.

She is a nice caring  (but controlling) person to everyone else and if anyone met her outside of any context that involves me, they would probably like her.  Meet her in any context that has a connection to me, and they would get the cold shoulder (at best).

 

To bring this back to the context of this thread, she is loved, treated well and kindly, but every effort is turned back.  It is rebuffed, and worse, seen as some effort to manipulate her or control her life in some way.  It is hard to love someone like that, but I do and nonetheless would do whatever I could to help her and would never do anything to harm her. 

Did not the Lord seek us out when we were totally unlovable, rejecting, and vile?  Does he not welcome us back with open arms and complete forgiveness?  Does he not hanker after reconciliation?  As soon as we are ready, we are embraced in his love. 

And that is my deep desire, with my sister - and for all others that are lost in their worlds of hatred, misery, violence, addiction, or whatever their problem is.

[T-Bone]

Twinky

I appreciate you sharing something so personal...and perhaps it’s something we all can relate to in some degree or another.

 

I think by and large all families have various dysfunctional dynamics going on that’s unique to their “clan”. Guess that comes with the territory (the human condition).