Bolshevik, if you're inferring to the numbers regarding the 7 year Tribulation period, I might have been a little pedantic, but there's a reason behind it. There are 2 camps in the end times discussion, one saying a 3 1/2 year Tribulation period, one saying 7 years- I'm of the 7 year camp so I explained my logic above. It would only matter to a few people. The numbers of days in the post is relevant to calculation time between events since there are a lot.
These apparent signs are happening now in the night sky stars, which has always been a means of declaration of events for God. There's approximately a 7 year period between the Rapture and the destruction of the Temple. The Tribulation is Israel's last chance to recognize the Messiah is Jesus Christ, and also the chance for all those who didn't believe before or who are born during that period.
Phil 2:10, 11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
For those who study the end times prophecies, I hate to throw more numbers your way, but there's over 737 distinct prophecies in the scriptures, often repeated in various books, as of now 594 have been fulfilled so there's still more yet to come to pass. The study of end times prophecies are relevant in this way in regards to the Sept. 23rd massing of planets, stars and constellations which just might be a fulfillment of prophecy.
It says in Revelation 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars
which is also a prophecy regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, which the Magi saw, they were taught by Daniel to watch the stars for signs-centuries beforehand, (it actually meant something to them to care about God's plan & people who they would never meet since all this happened centuries after the original Magi's lifespan) they followed those stars which spoke of the event of His birth and they used the stars in order to find Mary, Joseph and Jesus. This September 23rd massing of planets appears to mirror that same description, but it is happening again now.
Which begs our attention if in fact God in essence is speaking to the world now, again, through the use of stars.
Waysider, that's true but what exactly are you objecting to?
The fulcrum here is the constellation of Sept 23rd and whether it's relative to Revelation 12.
I'm no astronomer, but I have great interest in the scriptures and how it all fits together. I guess it's been a lifelong goal to see His Word fit together and to understand it.
When I came across this information regarding the Sept 23rd star alignment/eclipse/autumn equinox/Feast of Trumpets, I was actually looking for something else. Since I was also studying the book of Revelation I recognized the verses of Revelation 12 matching up to that alignment. I was looking for information regarding the star shafts in the Great Pyramid at Giza, Egypt. There are verses in the OT that tell of signs from God in Egypt of the coming of the Lord, and that there's an altar to the Lord in the midst of Egypt.
Isaiah 19:19,20
In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Jeremiah 32:20a
Which hast set signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, even unto this day
The three pyramids are in fact aligned with the stars, they are lined out in the exact pattern of the constellation Orion's Belt, the Great Pyramid is located at the exact center of the world as well, plus ALOT more.
The problem is I'm a layman too, not well versed in astronomy nor in biblical meanings of the stars, I have a fairly good grasp on the book of Revelation and am still working OT prophecy regarding end times. I'm learning as I go, I was hoping someone here with background in these subject could weigh in. The more info I find the more convinced I am that it is something though.
I cannot say enough about how much Patrick Heron's books helped me to understand the scriptures of the end times, his books are an incredibly good source for those who want to know more, I believe he was an 11th Corps grad.
This researcher helped a lot regarding the star shafts there's also a book they used for their research
Robert Bauval has written several books on the subject starting with "The Orion Mystery".
Anyway it seems this all points to the second coming of Christ and the end times, kind of a big deal to God, maybe others now or in the future will think so too.
Our brains are designed to look for patterns. That is a great tool. Sometimes it can trick us, though.
You might consider pareidolia. We see faces in random objects. It's something our brain does automatically. It is a good tool for scanning for something like a predator or enemy or even a loved one. But it can play tricks on us if you let it. Maybe when you look at an electrical outlet, you see a face? That's pareidolia. Or do you see shapes in clouds? Everyone does.
That's just an example.
We do the same thing with data. That includes numbers and scripture.
So it's important to break your reasoning down further. Some of it may be perfectly correct. Some of it may be simple, normal, mind tricks that feel correct, but are not.
You've got a lot of information there. Maybe break it down slowly, step by step, from the beginning, one point at a time?
I agree that God gives us astronomical signs and they are relevant even in our day and time. We should take note especially if these things occur on the Jewish feast days.
However, the book of Revelation is symbolism which is referring to events that took place during the Roman attack on Israel(a.k.a The Great Tribulation) from 66-73AD, a seven year period. The 42 months or 3 1/2 years was the beginning of the campaign to the destruction of Jerusalem & the 2nd Temple(Matt 24:1,2) in 70AD.
That's called confirmation bias. We all do it to one degree or another.
"The more information I find the more convinced I am it is something though", said the atheist while reading the Bible for the first time.
You could say it's "confirmation bias" whenever anyone reads the scriptures and is convinced it's true.
I'll ask you again, what exactly are you objecting too?
This is a forum of discussing biblical concepts, and scripture, is it not? Is it not the Doctrinal Forum? You have not once commented on the content or scriptures. You have resorted to mocking the poster simply because you disagree with another's view of scriptures and events?
Wow, I guess I overestimated the integrity of this Forum, I was under the impression this is the forum to talk about scriptures and meanings. Something has gone terribly wrong here at GS when even if you disagree with the interpretation of scripture you don't engage it biblically you verbally put down the poster instead.
You don't think we're in the "end times" now, fine, I assure you there are many who do including many worldwide denominations, Christian organizations and individuals globally. Not interested in prophecies in the scripture for future events? Fine, go to another thread that you're interested in. Don't believe there'll be signs in the heavens portending future events? Fine. E.W. Bullinger would beg to differ, ever heard of "Witness of the Stars"? Why not go to a thread where you can mock Wierwillians all day long.
The above does not apply to Infoabsorption, thank you for your comment.
I'm not mocking you, I'm questioning the methodology you're using. There's a big difference. In fact, I applaud your curiosity and efforts.
When you research a subject...any subject...you can't latch on to findings that bolster your preconceived hypothesis at the expense of ignoring those that contradict it. That's what is meant by confirmation bias. It's not unique to people studying the Bible, either. Scientists can fall victim, as well, if the refuted findings jeopardize their funding. That's where the process of peer review enters the picture.
Credibility of sources becomes an issue, too. For example, one of your sources has a cross-link to this article discussing the possibility we descended from space aliens. Maybe we did. Maybe we didn't. What I'm questioning here is the method the author used to arrive at such an extraordinary conclusion.
Again, I'm not putting you down, bashing Wierwille or disagreeing with the scriptures. I simply don't agree with this type of approach to the subject.
This is a forum of discussing biblical concepts, and scripture, is it not? Is it not the Doctrinal Forum? You have not once commented on the content or scriptures. You have resorted to mocking the poster simply because you disagree with another's view of scriptures and events?
Unfortunately, that seems to happen a lot around here. Perhaps one of the deepest, most damaging, and most difficult attribute to correct or cover up (or even mitigate) is the egotism that bred and flourished at TWI.
No one is being mocked or attacked.Perhaps a slightly different approach might move things along. My suggestion would be to break the hypothesis into more bite-size pieces and deal with them on a more individualized level. Pick a more particular scripture, or section of scripture, and deal with it specifically.
A person's favorite word is their own name. I think that's something taught in TWI.
God called out the stars by their names. If I remember correctly.
Our minds see in the world what is meaningful. When you look at any object you see its meaning. If you look at a coffee mug, you see significant object with a handle that your mind and hand automatically adjust to pick up in an amazingly coordinated way, without thought. Because you've previously assigned it meaning.
The stars have names. They were given meaning.
So I agree there is something meaningful in scripture about the stars.
This is a discussion to articulate what that might be?
Edited by Bolshevik spelling, you know what I meant
No one is being mocked or attacked.Perhaps a slightly different approach might move things along. My suggestion would be to break the hypothesis into more bite-size pieces and deal with them on a more individualized level. Pick a more particular scripture, or section of scripture, and deal with it specifically.
I think Waysider has some good suggestions....and I wanted to add a few of my own thoughts about the doctrinal forum in general before I offer an opinion on this particular subject.
I think of Grease Spot doctrinal forum as maybe an entry level doctrinal discussion when compared to the many Christian doctrinal discussion boards out there - where one had better be rock solid in their own brand of theology, biblical hermeneutics, and thoroughly familiar with opposing viewpoints....and they still might get "the beating of the week" . ...
...And maybe that's the great thing about Grease Spot - it doesn't matter what your viewpoint is , what credentials or experience you may have - just come here with an inquisitive mind, be honest and courageous enough to once and a while sneak a glimpse outside what bias you may have, and engage the old "brain muscles".
And usually Grease Spot is a stimulating and thought-provoking environment - - even when some posters want to adhere to wierwille dogmatics - which for the most part is the bane of critical thinking. Occasionally getting nudged outside our comfort zone can be exciting.
== == == ==
Over the years I have enjoyed studying the book of Revelation (have quite a few commentaries on it - hardback, software, e-Books...and have a few Hugh Ross books too)....i liked InfoAbsorption's post getting into the preterist commentary. I believe there are 4 major views of interpreting Revelation - and I believe they all have merit. On something like this I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket... just in case the world is going to hell in an Easter Basket.
I think I might enjoy looking at the topic in bite-size pieces as Waysider put it.
For what it's worth I've had a personal experience that kinda relates to this stuff that sort of threw all my dear paradigms into a tizzy. It was after 9/11 happened, I felt like a dark cloud of confusion was spread over my head - even entertained ideas like: the rapture had already happened and I was among those left behind, or the mid-trib folks were right, or there is no God and somehow we're now in the hi-gear-to-annihilation-mode....needless to say I've tempered my viewpoint with some flexibility / adaptability - maybe I'm a little bit of a "philosophical prepper " now to go along with any contingency planning.
Regarding this topic, of late I tend to look more at what's going on in the Middle East and also in the rest of the world politically / economically , details of the "third temple" and other stuff in light of scripture alluding to future events like in Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 - - and of course Revelation too - but I don't get hung up in trying to decipher all the symbolism - I try to get a feel for the back drop of unfolding events - how things will come into place politically and economically..
..folks have always played guessing games on who is the antichrist and what is the mark of the beast, how close are we to the return of Christ...I know Jesus said no one but the Father knows the hour...I mean...all that stuff is interesting but I feel some groups so fixate on these things I tend to think they're disconnected with the here and now - like they're punching a clock and can't wait for quitting time....
you know , considering the fact that the STATE of Israel came into existence in 1948 is enough of a sign of the times for me...and thinking about the trend toward globalism, mounting political tensions, terrorism, environmental issues I think it will all eventually come to a head... and if I find myself stuck in the great tribulation I hope I'll be strong enough to help others get through it.
Whew! After all that just want to say I tend to look more at these more conspicuous signs rather than astronomical ones where there could be issues with lining up occurrences with various dating systems, feasts, scriptural significance, etc.
Of course this is all just my opinion and I could be wrong.
We know history repeats. We know, or it is apparent, that ancients took these same stories that are repeated today and projected them into the stars.
It's only logical to see converging, apparently correlating, patterns today.
We looked through a child's telescope last night and saw the moons of Jupiter. I saw three moons. Another saw Four. According to the charts there was only a slight possibility of seeing four at that hour. I couldn't see four. Maybe the other person could. We have different sets of eyes.
I think the answer to the question of the opening post is yes, you see SOMETHING, not NOTHING. I know I see SOMETHING. If all we're aiming for here is SOMETHING, that's not much of a target though.
T-Bone, you made some very good points regarding GSC. I truly believed that when I started posting here regarding my Preterist beliefs that I would be banned from this site. I've been banned from various Christian forums just for mentioning the word Preterism. Many thanks goes to the person or persons running GSC for being tolerant of alternative viewpoints no matter how crazy they seem. One thing I did expect (if I wasn't banned) was to get slammed as being debbil pozzessed or a heretic or something along those lines but that hasn't happened to my amazement. I was prepared for that and I think DWBH said something along these lines: "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen." I think for the most part we are an open minded group. We may not all agree with each other but we all are lovers of the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution.
Here is a little background on my switch to Preterism from Dispensational Futurism. I was like most Christians believing that the eschatological prophecies recorded in the Bible are in our future. I became fascinated with Revelation during my teen years back in the early 80's. I read anything I could about the subject. I even saw Perry Stone and Hal Lindsey live a few times. Jump ahead to 2004... I saw a History Channel program about the early Roman Empire and some of the factions they were fighting at the time(Gauls etc). Being a history nut, I looked up 1st century Roman history online just for craps & giggles. During that internet search I ran into a Preterist web page describing the Beast of Revelation as 1st century Rome. My initial reaction was to laugh out loud and say "Bull SH**T!!!. It was the craziest thing I had ever heard of. I blew it off but then a few weeks later I ran into a different web page explaining Matthew 24 from a Preterist perspective. This got my attention because of its explanation of verse 34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." This verse always bugged me. Even the futurist explanation didn't really make sense to me...that it is a future generation that witnesses all of those events. I accepted that explanation but in the back of my mind there was some doubt. Why didn't Christ use the phrase "that generation" if it was a future generation? The web site also listed some parallel verses such as Matthew 16:27,28:
"27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
This one is harder to twist into a future generation. But it was these anomalies that triggered my own study of this alternative explanation of Bible Prophecy. Basically, I read anything I could about Preterism for 2 years before I became 100% convinced. It was a casual study and I took my time. I think the verses that really convinced me was Revelation 22:6 & 10:
6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.
Revelation 22:10 parallels Daniel 12:9:
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.
The angel told Daniel that the prophecy would not occur in his lifetime, thus the figurative phrase rolled up and sealed is used. But Revelation 22:10 states "Do not seal up the words of this scroll." ??????
I know this is getting a bit lengthy but I want to clarify that I am a Partial Preterist. Some of the sites that I reference such as Dr. Morais's Revelation Revolution are Full Preterist sites but they contain interesting information so I reference them. Full Preterism is the belief that all of the prophecies were fulfilled by 70AD. I see Christ's return in final judgement, the 2nd resurrection, Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the Beast & False prophet(also fallen angels) already are as occurring in our future.
Nice post, InfoAbsorption ! I always enjoy when someone walks me through their thinking process - it often helps me reevaluate my viewpoint. You know what – I’m probably a bit of a preterist myself – or maybe even a mix of the the 4 major eschatological views
I won’t even get into all the subdivisions concerning the millennium…oh that reminds me … I do have to mention my “brush with greatness” – years ago I did have the honor of working on the security system at the home of J. Dwight Pentecost author of “Things to Come”…..(quite an interesting read!) Did we meet and discuss all kinds of Revelation stuff? Naw – his staff assistant let me in – but I’m here to tell you his home was absolutely lovely.
By the way, tonight I was doing some extra credit work for this thread – and found out there’s a name for combining all four viewpoints - some scholars propose a fifth method of interpretation – the eclectic approach that tries to maximize the strengths of all four views...not sure if that's really possible though...but it sure sounds diplomatic . I read about it here preterist approach
personally I don’t think any single one of these views can work out all the kinks – and since I’m not a preacher or teacher or concerned with selling more books – I feel I'm free to work out each “kink” on a kink-by-kink basis…so I’m a little kinky.
I know this is getting a bit lengthy but I want to clarify that I am a Partial Preterist. Some of the sites that I reference such as Dr. Morais's Revelation Revolution are Full Preterist sites but they contain interesting information so I reference them. Full Preterism is the belief that all of the prophecies were fulfilled by 70AD. I see Christ's return in final judgement, the 2nd resurrection, Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the Beast & False prophet(also fallen angels) already are as occurring in our future.
So are you amillennialist, and think that Israel has been replaced, or do you think that Israel (as an earthly nation) will yet enter into a 1000 years of peace?
Also, are you aware that it is really not that uncommon for scriptural prophecies to appear to have both a near term and a much more robust (more distant) fulfillment?
"So are you amillennialist, and think that Israel has been replaced, or do you think that Israel (as an earthly nation) will yet enter into a 1000 years of peace?
Also, are you aware that it is really not that uncommon for scriptural prophecies to appear to have both a near term and a much more robust (more distant) fulfillment?"
TLC,
I am amillennialist in the sense that I do believe that we are now in the millennium which started in 70AD when the saints took possession of the Kingdom...see Daniel 7:21&22 and Rev. 20 4&5. In Daniel 7:19 the "other horn"(11th) of the 4th Beast wages war against the holy people & defeating them until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgement in favor of the holy people. There are only 4 Beasts in Daniel & the 4th one is no doubt Rome. If you count from Julias Caesar to Vespasian you get 10 rulers(horns). The 11th horn was Titus(son of Vespasian) the Roman general who actually led the attack on Jerusalem in 70AD. That is why the futurists who read Daniel say it must be a future revival of the Roman Empire.
As far as replacement theology. Physical Israel did take a break for a while, but if Israel was completely replaced I don't think that God would have brought Israel back as a nation state in 1948. The ball started rolling on that in 1917 when British General Allenby marched into Jerusalem during WW1. If Luke 21:24 is referring to dominion and not just the Roman attack from 66-73AD, then the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" happened during the year 1948 or 1967 depending on how you look at it. It is obvious that God is now dealing with Israel favorably.
I see the 1000 years as figurative meaning a very long period of time... so far 19 hundred and forty some years since 70AD. Christ is ruling from heaven: John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world." That is where the peace is, not here on earth. Here on earth we may be in the time where Satan is released for a short time to deceive the nations again (Rev 20:3). Then the forces of evil march across the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of the saints. This is figurative language but It sure seems like Christianity is under assault right now doesn't it?( in many different ways). Then fire comes down out of heaven and devours the forces of evil. In other words: Christ coming in final judgement. I'm looking forward to that and the new heavens and new earth.
This dual meaning of Revelation has been mentioned in some Preterist circles...that the symbolism refers to 70AD as well as the future. Pretty interesting stuff and I haven't completely written it off. I think the Idealists from England I chatted with online years ago think along these lines to some degree.
As far as replacement theology. Physical Israel did take a break for a while, but if Israel was completely replaced I don't think that God would have brought Israel back as a nation state in 1948. The ball started rolling on that in 1917 when British General Allenby marched into Jerusalem during WW1. If Luke 21:24 is referring to dominion and not just the Roman attack from 66-73AD, then the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" happened during the year 1948 or 1967 depending on how you look at it. It is obvious that God is now dealing with Israel favorably.
You sound undecided, which seems quite unusual even for a "partial Preterist." And, I can't follow the reasoning behind why you think the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled must happen exactly 29 years after the start of the restoration of the nation of Israel. Evidently you think that God is now dealing with Israel favorably. While I might be inclined to agree with the "now dealing with Israel favorably" part of your statement, I'd be interested to hear what sort of justification or further explanation(s) you think goes along with that.
Furthermore, if you retain the nation of Israel as being essential to the fulfillment of certain prophecies, what aspect(s) of your "partial Preterist" position do you see as being incompatible with mid Acts dispensationism?
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thor
I found this article in the link below, well presented and compelling with much background information and good arguments from the author regarding the September 23rd planetary alignments. I stro
thor
I'm interested in your opinions on what's below. Recently I stumbled across all this while looking up something about the pyramids at Giza, stars, and Jewish holidays & holy days on the inter
mamouda
Sorry English not my mother tongue... The teachings, some things were off but we didn't see them really, we just believed what was said such as : needs and wants parallels... or If you don't tithe God
Bolshevik
Lots of numbers and verses. My gut would suggest statistical fallacy.
https://flowingdata.com/2012/05/03/common-statistical-fallacies/
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thor
Bolshevik, if you're inferring to the numbers regarding the 7 year Tribulation period, I might have been a little pedantic, but there's a reason behind it. There are 2 camps in the end times discussion, one saying a 3 1/2 year Tribulation period, one saying 7 years- I'm of the 7 year camp so I explained my logic above. It would only matter to a few people. The numbers of days in the post is relevant to calculation time between events since there are a lot.
These apparent signs are happening now in the night sky stars, which has always been a means of declaration of events for God. There's approximately a 7 year period between the Rapture and the destruction of the Temple. The Tribulation is Israel's last chance to recognize the Messiah is Jesus Christ, and also the chance for all those who didn't believe before or who are born during that period.
Phil 2:10, 11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
For those who study the end times prophecies, I hate to throw more numbers your way, but there's over 737 distinct prophecies in the scriptures, often repeated in various books, as of now 594 have been fulfilled so there's still more yet to come to pass. The study of end times prophecies are relevant in this way in regards to the Sept. 23rd massing of planets, stars and constellations which just might be a fulfillment of prophecy.
It says in Revelation 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars
which is also a prophecy regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, which the Magi saw, they were taught by Daniel to watch the stars for signs-centuries beforehand, (it actually meant something to them to care about God's plan & people who they would never meet since all this happened centuries after the original Magi's lifespan) they followed those stars which spoke of the event of His birth and they used the stars in order to find Mary, Joseph and Jesus. This September 23rd massing of planets appears to mirror that same description, but it is happening again now.
Which begs our attention if in fact God in essence is speaking to the world now, again, through the use of stars.
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Bolshevik
It looks like you've noted a lot of patterns in the scripture and astronomy and between the two?
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waysider
You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say. In fact, some guy once showed me how you can even make it say "There is no God.".
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thor
Waysider, that's true but what exactly are you objecting to?
The fulcrum here is the constellation of Sept 23rd and whether it's relative to Revelation 12.
I'm no astronomer, but I have great interest in the scriptures and how it all fits together. I guess it's been a lifelong goal to see His Word fit together and to understand it.
When I came across this information regarding the Sept 23rd star alignment/eclipse/autumn equinox/Feast of Trumpets, I was actually looking for something else. Since I was also studying the book of Revelation I recognized the verses of Revelation 12 matching up to that alignment. I was looking for information regarding the star shafts in the Great Pyramid at Giza, Egypt. There are verses in the OT that tell of signs from God in Egypt of the coming of the Lord, and that there's an altar to the Lord in the midst of Egypt.
Isaiah 19:19,20
In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Jeremiah 32:20a
Which hast set signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, even unto this day
Great Pyramid of Giza facts click here: https://www.ancient-code.com/15-facts-that-prove-the-great-pyramid-of-giza-was-built-by-an-extremely-advanced-ancient-civilization/
The three pyramids are in fact aligned with the stars, they are lined out in the exact pattern of the constellation Orion's Belt, the Great Pyramid is located at the exact center of the world as well, plus ALOT more.
The problem is I'm a layman too, not well versed in astronomy nor in biblical meanings of the stars, I have a fairly good grasp on the book of Revelation and am still working OT prophecy regarding end times. I'm learning as I go, I was hoping someone here with background in these subject could weigh in. The more info I find the more convinced I am that it is something though.
I cannot say enough about how much Patrick Heron's books helped me to understand the scriptures of the end times, his books are an incredibly good source for those who want to know more, I believe he was an 11th Corps grad.
This researcher helped a lot regarding the star shafts there's also a book they used for their research
http://watchfortheday.org/signsoftheend/giza2024.html
Robert Bauval has written several books on the subject starting with "The Orion Mystery".
Anyway it seems this all points to the second coming of Christ and the end times, kind of a big deal to God, maybe others now or in the future will think so too.
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waysider
That's called confirmation bias. We all do it to one degree or another.
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Bolshevik
Our brains are designed to look for patterns. That is a great tool. Sometimes it can trick us, though.
You might consider pareidolia. We see faces in random objects. It's something our brain does automatically. It is a good tool for scanning for something like a predator or enemy or even a loved one. But it can play tricks on us if you let it. Maybe when you look at an electrical outlet, you see a face? That's pareidolia. Or do you see shapes in clouds? Everyone does.
That's just an example.
We do the same thing with data. That includes numbers and scripture.
So it's important to break your reasoning down further. Some of it may be perfectly correct. Some of it may be simple, normal, mind tricks that feel correct, but are not.
You've got a lot of information there. Maybe break it down slowly, step by step, from the beginning, one point at a time?
Edited by Bolshevikspelling
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Infoabsorption
I agree that God gives us astronomical signs and they are relevant even in our day and time. We should take note especially if these things occur on the Jewish feast days.
However, the book of Revelation is symbolism which is referring to events that took place during the Roman attack on Israel(a.k.a The Great Tribulation) from 66-73AD, a seven year period. The 42 months or 3 1/2 years was the beginning of the campaign to the destruction of Jerusalem & the 2nd Temple(Matt 24:1,2) in 70AD.
Revelation 12 is referring to a Babylonian constellation. Here is a commentary on this: http://revelationrevolution.org/revelation-12-a-preterist-commentary/
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Bolshevik
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thor
"The more information I find the more convinced I am it is something though", said the atheist while reading the Bible for the first time.
You could say it's "confirmation bias" whenever anyone reads the scriptures and is convinced it's true.
I'll ask you again, what exactly are you objecting too?
This is a forum of discussing biblical concepts, and scripture, is it not? Is it not the Doctrinal Forum? You have not once commented on the content or scriptures. You have resorted to mocking the poster simply because you disagree with another's view of scriptures and events?
Wow, I guess I overestimated the integrity of this Forum, I was under the impression this is the forum to talk about scriptures and meanings. Something has gone terribly wrong here at GS when even if you disagree with the interpretation of scripture you don't engage it biblically you verbally put down the poster instead.
You don't think we're in the "end times" now, fine, I assure you there are many who do including many worldwide denominations, Christian organizations and individuals globally. Not interested in prophecies in the scripture for future events? Fine, go to another thread that you're interested in. Don't believe there'll be signs in the heavens portending future events? Fine. E.W. Bullinger would beg to differ, ever heard of "Witness of the Stars"? Why not go to a thread where you can mock Wierwillians all day long.
The above does not apply to Infoabsorption, thank you for your comment.
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waysider
I'm not mocking you, I'm questioning the methodology you're using. There's a big difference. In fact, I applaud your curiosity and efforts.
When you research a subject...any subject...you can't latch on to findings that bolster your preconceived hypothesis at the expense of ignoring those that contradict it. That's what is meant by confirmation bias. It's not unique to people studying the Bible, either. Scientists can fall victim, as well, if the refuted findings jeopardize their funding. That's where the process of peer review enters the picture.
Credibility of sources becomes an issue, too. For example, one of your sources has a cross-link to this article discussing the possibility we descended from space aliens. Maybe we did. Maybe we didn't. What I'm questioning here is the method the author used to arrive at such an extraordinary conclusion.
Again, I'm not putting you down, bashing Wierwille or disagreeing with the scriptures. I simply don't agree with this type of approach to the subject.
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Bolshevik
I posted an example of how data can confirm a bias. Nothing to do with scripture. Did you see the joke?
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TLC
Unfortunately, that seems to happen a lot around here. Perhaps one of the deepest, most damaging, and most difficult attribute to correct or cover up (or even mitigate) is the egotism that bred and flourished at TWI.
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waysider
No one is being mocked or attacked.Perhaps a slightly different approach might move things along. My suggestion would be to break the hypothesis into more bite-size pieces and deal with them on a more individualized level. Pick a more particular scripture, or section of scripture, and deal with it specifically.
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Bolshevik
A person's favorite word is their own name. I think that's something taught in TWI.
God called out the stars by their names. If I remember correctly.
Our minds see in the world what is meaningful. When you look at any object you see its meaning. If you look at a coffee mug, you see significant object with a handle that your mind and hand automatically adjust to pick up in an amazingly coordinated way, without thought. Because you've previously assigned it meaning.
The stars have names. They were given meaning.
So I agree there is something meaningful in scripture about the stars.
This is a discussion to articulate what that might be?
Edited by Bolshevikspelling, you know what I meant
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T-Bone
I think Waysider has some good suggestions....and I wanted to add a few of my own thoughts about the doctrinal forum in general before I offer an opinion on this particular subject.
I think of Grease Spot doctrinal forum as maybe an entry level doctrinal discussion when compared to the many Christian doctrinal discussion boards out there - where one had better be rock solid in their own brand of theology, biblical hermeneutics, and thoroughly familiar with opposing viewpoints....and they still might get "the beating of the week" . ...
...And maybe that's the great thing about Grease Spot - it doesn't matter what your viewpoint is , what credentials or experience you may have - just come here with an inquisitive mind, be honest and courageous enough to once and a while sneak a glimpse outside what bias you may have, and engage the old "brain muscles".
And usually Grease Spot is a stimulating and thought-provoking environment - - even when some posters want to adhere to wierwille dogmatics - which for the most part is the bane of critical thinking. Occasionally getting nudged outside our comfort zone can be exciting.
== == == ==
Over the years I have enjoyed studying the book of Revelation (have quite a few commentaries on it - hardback, software, e-Books...and have a few Hugh Ross books too)....i liked InfoAbsorption's post getting into the preterist commentary. I believe there are 4 major views of interpreting Revelation - and I believe they all have merit. On something like this I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket... just in case the world is going to hell in an Easter Basket.
I think I might enjoy looking at the topic in bite-size pieces as Waysider put it.
For what it's worth I've had a personal experience that kinda relates to this stuff that sort of threw all my dear paradigms into a tizzy. It was after 9/11 happened, I felt like a dark cloud of confusion was spread over my head - even entertained ideas like: the rapture had already happened and I was among those left behind, or the mid-trib folks were right, or there is no God and somehow we're now in the hi-gear-to-annihilation-mode....needless to say I've tempered my viewpoint with some flexibility / adaptability - maybe I'm a little bit of a "philosophical prepper " now to go along with any contingency planning.
Regarding this topic, of late I tend to look more at what's going on in the Middle East and also in the rest of the world politically / economically , details of the "third temple" and other stuff in light of scripture alluding to future events like in Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 - - and of course Revelation too - but I don't get hung up in trying to decipher all the symbolism - I try to get a feel for the back drop of unfolding events - how things will come into place politically and economically..
..folks have always played guessing games on who is the antichrist and what is the mark of the beast, how close are we to the return of Christ...I know Jesus said no one but the Father knows the hour...I mean...all that stuff is interesting but I feel some groups so fixate on these things I tend to think they're disconnected with the here and now - like they're punching a clock and can't wait for quitting time....
you know , considering the fact that the STATE of Israel came into existence in 1948 is enough of a sign of the times for me...and thinking about the trend toward globalism, mounting political tensions, terrorism, environmental issues I think it will all eventually come to a head... and if I find myself stuck in the great tribulation I hope I'll be strong enough to help others get through it.
Whew! After all that just want to say I tend to look more at these more conspicuous signs rather than astronomical ones where there could be issues with lining up occurrences with various dating systems, feasts, scriptural significance, etc.
Of course this is all just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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Bolshevik
We know history repeats. We know, or it is apparent, that ancients took these same stories that are repeated today and projected them into the stars.
It's only logical to see converging, apparently correlating, patterns today.
We looked through a child's telescope last night and saw the moons of Jupiter. I saw three moons. Another saw Four. According to the charts there was only a slight possibility of seeing four at that hour. I couldn't see four. Maybe the other person could. We have different sets of eyes.
I think the answer to the question of the opening post is yes, you see SOMETHING, not NOTHING. I know I see SOMETHING. If all we're aiming for here is SOMETHING, that's not much of a target though.
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Infoabsorption
T-Bone, you made some very good points regarding GSC. I truly believed that when I started posting here regarding my Preterist beliefs that I would be banned from this site. I've been banned from various Christian forums just for mentioning the word Preterism. Many thanks goes to the person or persons running GSC for being tolerant of alternative viewpoints no matter how crazy they seem. One thing I did expect (if I wasn't banned) was to get slammed as being debbil pozzessed or a heretic or something along those lines but that hasn't happened to my amazement. I was prepared for that and I think DWBH said something along these lines: "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen." I think for the most part we are an open minded group. We may not all agree with each other but we all are lovers of the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution.
Here is a little background on my switch to Preterism from Dispensational Futurism. I was like most Christians believing that the eschatological prophecies recorded in the Bible are in our future. I became fascinated with Revelation during my teen years back in the early 80's. I read anything I could about the subject. I even saw Perry Stone and Hal Lindsey live a few times. Jump ahead to 2004... I saw a History Channel program about the early Roman Empire and some of the factions they were fighting at the time(Gauls etc). Being a history nut, I looked up 1st century Roman history online just for craps & giggles. During that internet search I ran into a Preterist web page describing the Beast of Revelation as 1st century Rome. My initial reaction was to laugh out loud and say "Bull SH**T!!!. It was the craziest thing I had ever heard of. I blew it off but then a few weeks later I ran into a different web page explaining Matthew 24 from a Preterist perspective. This got my attention because of its explanation of verse 34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." This verse always bugged me. Even the futurist explanation didn't really make sense to me...that it is a future generation that witnesses all of those events. I accepted that explanation but in the back of my mind there was some doubt. Why didn't Christ use the phrase "that generation" if it was a future generation? The web site also listed some parallel verses such as Matthew 16:27,28:
"27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
This one is harder to twist into a future generation. But it was these anomalies that triggered my own study of this alternative explanation of Bible Prophecy. Basically, I read anything I could about Preterism for 2 years before I became 100% convinced. It was a casual study and I took my time. I think the verses that really convinced me was Revelation 22:6 & 10:
6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.
Revelation 22:10 parallels Daniel 12:9:
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end.
The angel told Daniel that the prophecy would not occur in his lifetime, thus the figurative phrase rolled up and sealed is used. But Revelation 22:10 states "Do not seal up the words of this scroll." ??????
I know this is getting a bit lengthy but I want to clarify that I am a Partial Preterist. Some of the sites that I reference such as Dr. Morais's Revelation Revolution are Full Preterist sites but they contain interesting information so I reference them. Full Preterism is the belief that all of the prophecies were fulfilled by 70AD. I see Christ's return in final judgement, the 2nd resurrection, Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the Beast & False prophet(also fallen angels) already are as occurring in our future.
Edited by Infoabsorptionspelling, grammar
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waysider
Nice , straight to the point, explanation of Preterism.
Thanks.
Edited by waysiderwrong choice of words.
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T-Bone
Nice post, InfoAbsorption ! I always enjoy when someone walks me through their thinking process - it often helps me reevaluate my viewpoint. You know what – I’m probably a bit of a preterist myself – or maybe even a mix of the the 4 major eschatological views
I won’t even get into all the subdivisions concerning the millennium…oh that reminds me … I do have to mention my “brush with greatness”
– years ago I did have the honor of working on the security system at the home of J. Dwight Pentecost author of “Things to Come”…..(quite an interesting read!) Did we meet and discuss all kinds of Revelation stuff? Naw – his staff assistant let me in – but I’m here to tell you his home was absolutely lovely. 
By the way, tonight I was doing some extra credit work for this thread
– and found out there’s a name for combining all four viewpoints - some scholars propose a fifth method of interpretation – the eclectic approach that tries to maximize the strengths of all four views...not sure if that's really possible though...but it sure sounds diplomatic 
. I read about it here preterist approach
personally I don’t think any single one of these views can work out all the kinks – and since I’m not a preacher or teacher or concerned with selling more books – I feel I'm free to work out each “kink” on a kink-by-kink basis…so I’m a little kinky.
Edited by T-Bonebonus features of DVD
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rrobs
Who told you that?
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TLC
So are you amillennialist, and think that Israel has been replaced, or do you think that Israel (as an earthly nation) will yet enter into a 1000 years of peace?
Also, are you aware that it is really not that uncommon for scriptural prophecies to appear to have both a near term and a much more robust (more distant) fulfillment?
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Infoabsorption
TLC said:
"So are you amillennialist, and think that Israel has been replaced, or do you think that Israel (as an earthly nation) will yet enter into a 1000 years of peace?
Also, are you aware that it is really not that uncommon for scriptural prophecies to appear to have both a near term and a much more robust (more distant) fulfillment?"
TLC,
I am amillennialist in the sense that I do believe that we are now in the millennium which started in 70AD when the saints took possession of the Kingdom...see Daniel 7:21&22 and Rev. 20 4&5. In Daniel 7:19 the "other horn"(11th) of the 4th Beast wages war against the holy people & defeating them until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgement in favor of the holy people. There are only 4 Beasts in Daniel & the 4th one is no doubt Rome. If you count from Julias Caesar to Vespasian you get 10 rulers(horns). The 11th horn was Titus(son of Vespasian) the Roman general who actually led the attack on Jerusalem in 70AD. That is why the futurists who read Daniel say it must be a future revival of the Roman Empire.
As far as replacement theology. Physical Israel did take a break for a while, but if Israel was completely replaced I don't think that God would have brought Israel back as a nation state in 1948. The ball started rolling on that in 1917 when British General Allenby marched into Jerusalem during WW1. If Luke 21:24 is referring to dominion and not just the Roman attack from 66-73AD, then the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" happened during the year 1948 or 1967 depending on how you look at it. It is obvious that God is now dealing with Israel favorably.
I see the 1000 years as figurative meaning a very long period of time... so far 19 hundred and forty some years since 70AD. Christ is ruling from heaven: John 18:36 "My kingdom is not of this world." That is where the peace is, not here on earth. Here on earth we may be in the time where Satan is released for a short time to deceive the nations again (Rev 20:3). Then the forces of evil march across the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of the saints. This is figurative language but It sure seems like Christianity is under assault right now doesn't it?( in many different ways). Then fire comes down out of heaven and devours the forces of evil. In other words: Christ coming in final judgement. I'm looking forward to that and the new heavens and new earth.
This dual meaning of Revelation has been mentioned in some Preterist circles...that the symbolism refers to 70AD as well as the future. Pretty interesting stuff and I haven't completely written it off. I think the Idealists from England I chatted with online years ago think along these lines to some degree.
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TLC
You sound undecided, which seems quite unusual even for a "partial Preterist." And, I can't follow the reasoning behind why you think the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled must happen exactly 29 years after the start of the restoration of the nation of Israel. Evidently you think that God is now dealing with Israel favorably. While I might be inclined to agree with the "now dealing with Israel favorably" part of your statement, I'd be interested to hear what sort of justification or further explanation(s) you think goes along with that.
Furthermore, if you retain the nation of Israel as being essential to the fulfillment of certain prophecies, what aspect(s) of your "partial Preterist" position do you see as being incompatible with mid Acts dispensationism?
Edited by TLCLink to comment
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