Just a reminder, if this argument were used in defense of any other god, you would point to it as evidence of that god's immorality and unworthiness of worship.
I won't "derail" the thread further. If you want to continue, feel free to open a thread in Questioning Faith.
(Note: I put "derail" in quotes because I don't think it's really a derailment, but courtesy demands taking this train of discussion elsewhere).
Just a reminder, if this argument were used in defense of any other god, you would point to it as evidence of that god's immorality and unworthiness of worship.
Actually, Raf, the question was this:
The question: what would present day Christendom do to a man like David?
which is not a question about God, but about Christian responses.
Twinky, my point is that present day Christianity would do exactly what I said... he would be tried for conspiracy to commit murder or some related crime. He would not be let off the hook because oh well.
Because modern day Christians are more moral than Yahweh.
But thank you for reminding me of the topic. (That was sincere, not sarcastic)
If you can invent a genocide, I can invent a bunch of lives that would have been saved if David had been removed and jailed instead of "bygones, you get to have Bathsheba as your wife now."
Just a reminder, if this argument were used in defense of any other god, you would point to it as evidence of that god's immorality and unworthiness of worship.
I won't "derail" the thread further. If you want to continue, feel free to open a thread in Questioning Faith.
(Note: I put "derail" in quotes because I don't think it's really a derailment, but courtesy demands taking this train of discussion elsewhere).
Well, God can be viewed as the combination of former gods over the course of history.
If you can invent a genocide, I can invent a bunch of lives that would have been saved if David had been removed and jailed instead of "bygones, you get to have Bathsheba as your wife now."
Starting with his son.
I don't believe I am inventing anything.
You're being silly. I think we can have better discussion than this.
I don't understand how God can be Almighty while simultaneously unable to protect the kingdom from a sociopathic king. And no, the answer is not "free will." An all-powerful God could institute a system of government in which a murderer can pay for his crime without the kingdom falling apart.
Unless of course, "all-powerful" is not really true.
Respectfully, you would reject your own reasoning if applied to any other god.
I don't understand how God can be Almighty while simultaneously unable to protect the kingdom from a sociopathic king. And no, the answer is not "free will." An all-powerful God could institute a system of government in which a murderer can pay for his crime without the kingdom falling apart.
Unless of course, "all-powerful" is not really true.
Respectfully, you would reject your own reasoning if applied to any other god.
He pays in conscience? Sheesh.
Look at what worship makes people excuse.
Try looking at it from the view of human beings within systems of other human beings.
We talked about Yertle the Tertle in another thread.
Respectfully, you have a prepackaged argument that does not flow here.
I do think we can have a productive argument though.
I think I am not the one with a prepackaged argument that doesn't flow.
You're the one making excuses for a killer to get away with murder, and a God too weak to do anything about it other than shrug and say "Well, you wanted s king!"
Don't you think an Almighty God could craft a way to protect Israel AND see to it that justice is served? I mean, without letting an innocent baby die to teach his dad a lesson?
I think I am not the one with a prepackaged argument that doesn't flow.
You're the one making excuses for a killer to get away with murder, and a God too weak to do anything about it other than shrug and say "Well, you wanted s king!"
Don't you think an Almighty God could craft a way to protect Israel AND see to it that justice is served? I mean, without letting an innocent baby die to teach his dad a lesson?
Why on earth would anyone think that?
I live in a world where Mother Nature rules. Having some God deal out whatever situation I think is best is not an option I have. Maybe you do.
I think this story presents a difficult and intriguing question. With a difficult choice to make.
Thank you rrob for starting the ball rolling on that.
God hand picked David to be king over Israel. He was the top leader over all of Israel (1 Samuel 1).
He used that position to commit murder in the first degree. He had Bath-sheba’s husband, Uriah, killed so he could have Bath-sheba all to himself. That is outlined in 2 Samuel chapter 11. A law school could use this chapter as an example of murder in the first degree. Conspiracy also and probably a few other niceties.
God wasn’t happy about David’s behaviour (2 Sam 11:27) so he had a talk with him. He told David that things wouldn’t be going very well for him and Israel from now on. But David immediately repented and so God completely forgave him (2 Sam 12). In fact, David ended up in the Hebrew’s chapter 11 “believers hall of fame” (Heb 11:32).
So the top leader of all Israel murders an innocent man. David repented. God forgave him.
The question: what would present day Christendom do to a man like David?
I think as has been shown the knee-jerk reaction is to incarcerate David.
One of things that goes on in the OT is that Kingdoms rise, fall, rise, split, fall.
Why? People aren't perfect. The systems they build aren't perfect. People in good systems corrupt the system.
I think this is a story that addresses some of that issue and how things can be better.
Attacking David is the easy answer.
Preserving David in order to preserve Israel or their culture is better in the long run for Israel.
What would probably happen is that the whole business would be papered over. The generals who withdrew would be made scapegoats, perhaps, for withdrawing.
And in today's times, leaders who do naughty things end up being excused.
A President has molested interns, got impeached and then let off, for example. Not sacked as Prez.
Another caused the death of thousands of young men in foreign countries, left those countries a worse mess, and suffered - what consequences? Vietnam is back on its feet; dead soldiers aren't.
African Prezes have committed genocidal campaigns and still "got away with it."
If enough people are murdered, it ceases to matter. Murder 6 million or more people of many backgrounds (including people from your own country), because of sexual orientation, nomadic habits, beliefs, etc, and a few perpetrators will suffer penalties, some of those penalties being laughably small in relation to their crimes. Others equally complicit suffered no consequences (but then, they weren't kings or Prezes or anybody that "mattered"). That's what the Nuremburg Trials were about. A semblance of justice and fairness.
And, at this present time, a President is ordering the killing members of his own community for apparent offences, but doesn't bother with the rigour of a trial. Some of the killings include government officials. Not for any "good" reason. Not only is this Prez immune from punishment, he gains increasingly high approval ratings. Duterte in the Philippines, anyone? And the Philippines are supposedly a great R Catholic country!
(I can't think of any modern kings who've committed heinous crimes like murder, hence the references to presidents.)
Sooooo..... what would Christendom do with a man like David? Slapped wrist? Maybe even give him more power? Like Duterte!
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
30
38
10
6
Popular Days
Jul 11
47
Jul 12
10
Jul 9
9
Jul 8
7
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 30 posts
Bolshevik 38 posts
Grace Valerie Claire 10 posts
rrobs 6 posts
Popular Days
Jul 11 2017
47 posts
Jul 12 2017
10 posts
Jul 9 2017
9 posts
Jul 8 2017
7 posts
Popular Posts
DontWorryBeHappy
Life in prison without parole.
waysider
"Dave's not here, man."
waysider
In the U.S., his fate (for his actions, not his beliefs) would be decided by society and governing entities, not.Christendom. If Christendom became part of the decision making process deciding David'
Bolshevik
Remember when LCM wrote a letter to all Wayfers about banging some other Dudes' wife?
He came clean. He was removed.
We all did one big group hug and TWI has flourished ever since.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Just a reminder, if this argument were used in defense of any other god, you would point to it as evidence of that god's immorality and unworthiness of worship.
I won't "derail" the thread further. If you want to continue, feel free to open a thread in Questioning Faith.
(Note: I put "derail" in quotes because I don't think it's really a derailment, but courtesy demands taking this train of discussion elsewhere).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Whose murder did he facilitate before his removal?
Oh, right.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Well, God serves a function in a society. If not him, then something else.
To me, it's like your saying T-Rex was a failure, because, where is he now? Every point in evolution is part of the process and should be appreciated.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Actually, Raf, the question was this:
The question: what would present day Christendom do to a man like David?
which is not a question about God, but about Christian responses.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Whose genocide would be facilitated by removal of a King?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Twinky, my point is that present day Christianity would do exactly what I said... he would be tried for conspiracy to commit murder or some related crime. He would not be let off the hook because oh well.
Because modern day Christians are more moral than Yahweh.
But thank you for reminding me of the topic. (That was sincere, not sarcastic)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
What the bloody hell?
Talk about a straw man! You can straight up invent a genocide that would have happened if David were removed?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
why not?
It's a Kingdom. Why do kingdom's exist? (or, why did they originate?)
Edited by Bolshevikclarity
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
If you can invent a genocide, I can invent a bunch of lives that would have been saved if David had been removed and jailed instead of "bygones, you get to have Bathsheba as your wife now."
Starting with his son.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Well, God can be viewed as the combination of former gods over the course of history.
I think you're injecting some other argument.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I don't believe I am inventing anything.
You're being silly. I think we can have better discussion than this.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I'm being silly?
You're inventing alternative universe genocides to justify David not having to pay for his crime, and I'm being silly?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Yes.
But he may pay in conscience.
The system that organizes and protects the people, which a King holds together, I do not understand how that can be ignored.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I don't understand how God can be Almighty while simultaneously unable to protect the kingdom from a sociopathic king. And no, the answer is not "free will." An all-powerful God could institute a system of government in which a murderer can pay for his crime without the kingdom falling apart.
Unless of course, "all-powerful" is not really true.
Respectfully, you would reject your own reasoning if applied to any other god.
He pays in conscience? Sheesh.
Look at what worship makes people excuse.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Try looking at it from the view of human beings within systems of other human beings.
We talked about Yertle the Tertle in another thread.
Respectfully, you have a prepackaged argument that does not flow here.
I do think we can have a productive argument though.
Was justice more important than survival?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I think I am not the one with a prepackaged argument that doesn't flow.
You're the one making excuses for a killer to get away with murder, and a God too weak to do anything about it other than shrug and say "Well, you wanted s king!"
Don't you think an Almighty God could craft a way to protect Israel AND see to it that justice is served? I mean, without letting an innocent baby die to teach his dad a lesson?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Why on earth would anyone think that?
I live in a world where Mother Nature rules. Having some God deal out whatever situation I think is best is not an option I have. Maybe you do.
I think this story presents a difficult and intriguing question. With a difficult choice to make.
Thank you rrob for starting the ball rolling on that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Hey, I attempted a serious answer.
But you lot - well, go play with your paintballs. I guess I'll wash the dishes. More productive.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I think as has been shown the knee-jerk reaction is to incarcerate David.
One of things that goes on in the OT is that Kingdoms rise, fall, rise, split, fall.
Why? People aren't perfect. The systems they build aren't perfect. People in good systems corrupt the system.
I think this is a story that addresses some of that issue and how things can be better.
Attacking David is the easy answer.
Preserving David in order to preserve Israel or their culture is better in the long run for Israel.
Hence God and forgiveness is invoked.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
The question: what would present day Christendom do to a man like David?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
What would probably happen is that the whole business would be papered over. The generals who withdrew would be made scapegoats, perhaps, for withdrawing.
And in today's times, leaders who do naughty things end up being excused.
(I can't think of any modern kings who've committed heinous crimes like murder, hence the references to presidents.)
Sooooo..... what would Christendom do with a man like David? Slapped wrist? Maybe even give him more power? Like Duterte!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Nothing. God is dead. Christendom does not exist. Or is not defined.
So I would assume any Western Mind. They'd treat him like a Rock Star.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grace Valerie Claire
If he lived in Florida, or Texas, he might be put to death.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.