I think it has to do with perspective. What's the fundamental place from which I view this or any "technical" question in the Bible and from which I then get my view, my perspective that informs me?
Christianity, faith in Christ, life in "the way, the truth and the life" is a rebirth, a new birth, a new beginning for me. So then, a question - if I didn't know anything more about it than that, could I still live it? If all I knew was that I now follow Jesus Christ, and accept my own human condition as one requiring mercy and forgiveness to succeed, that Jesus Christ has acted on my behalf and bridged a gap I would have been unable to, and that the full life possible is to be "born again of God's spirit", or God's "life".....then what?
The most basic place to go from there is "living the life". And the question would be is it "on or off", active or passive, in wait mode for a future or in act mode, living now? I think we could agree it's on, it's active, it's a life to be lived. Everything I read in the New Testament encourages me to be patient and steadfast in living this new life now, while knowing death is not the end, that there is a future beyond that, a "hope" and that I must transition to that future. So again and still - what is this new life, this place from which I now live and work?
The question of "gifts or manifestations" and related issues answers itself then - we have a new life, in Christ. We are born again of God's spirit, we are God's children, we are new creation in Christ, we have a fresh new set of answers and ideas to bring to our fellow man -
Accept God's gift of forgiveness and mercy through Christ. Believe that God showed us the Way through death in Christ's resurrection, believe that God raised Him from the dead and that now we too can be raised into new life believing in that, and that the new life to come is our future. Believe it, say it. Now - forgive as you've been forgiven. Extend mercy as it's been shown to you. Lift others as you have been lifted. Pray to God and seek Him, pray for others and that they will do the same. Act as Jesus did, do as He did, live the new life without owing anyone anything other than to love them.
I encourage people to a living faith, an active lifestyle that embraces all the fundamentals, all the time. "All nine all the time" sounds childish, boorish, to me now, like somethng I'd hear in a football game analysis. The whole attitude takes something eternal and incredible and turns it into a list of things-to-do and "believe for", greek words to be twisted and squeezed to gain some deeper understanding of what is already here, now and living in me.
One thing I learned in the Way - men will torture the life out of each other and every word in the Bible while condemning each other to hell, to get to some elevated stated of enlightened understanding and ignore mercy, forgiveness, grace.
There's that old saying - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"......in the Way we saw it as no, you can lead that horse to water and if you hose it down, stand it in 10 feet of water, show it pictures of water all day and say "water water water water water" a million times it will eventually just swallow whatever you're giving it to just get you to stop. It doesn't mean it liked it or won't bolt the minute you're not looking. And that isn't belief or faith or trust. How can God have the heart of a man or woman if they're only trying to please some lesser power or get something of lesser value than to please their Creator?
The line of people that want to start some new improved version of Christianity that's better than what's come before is pretty long. The line of those who give a shit about people, care for them and are willing to be as passionate about learning to forgive and love as they are about cutting out their lesser competition is much shorter.
“The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works.”
Psalm 145:8,9.
Edited by socks You read the Bible, Brett? Well, there's this passage I got memorized, sorta fits the occasion.....
I think it has to do with perspective. What's the fundamental place from which I view this or any "technical" question in the Bible and from which I then get my view, my perspective that informs me?
Christianity, faith in Christ, life in "the way, the truth and the life" is a rebirth, a new birth, a new beginning for me. So then, a question - if I didn't know anything more about it than that, could I still live it? If all I knew was that I now follow Jesus Christ, and accept my own human condition as one requiring mercy and forgiveness to succeed, that Jesus Christ has acted on my behalf and bridged a gap I would have been unable to, and that the full life possible is to be "born again of God's spirit", or God's "life".....then what?
The most basic place to go from there is "living the life". And the question would be is it "on or off", active or passive, in wait mode for a future or in act mode, living now? I think we could agree it's on, it's active, it's a life to be lived. Everything I read in the New Testament encourages me to be patient and steadfast in living this new life now, while knowing death is not the end, that there is a future beyond that, a "hope" and that I must transition to that future. So again and still - what is this new life, this place from which I now live and work?
The question of "gifts or manifestations" and related issues answers itself then - we have a new life, in Christ. We are born again of God's spirit, we are God's children, we are new creation in Christ, we have a fresh new set of answers and ideas to bring to our fellow man -
Accept God's gift of forgiveness and mercy through Christ. Believe that God showed us the Way through death in Christ's resurrection, believe that God raised Him from the dead and that now we too can be raised into new life believing in that, and that the new life to come is our future. Believe it, say it. Now - forgive as you've been forgiven. Extend mercy as it's been shown to you. Lift others as you have been lifted. Pray to God and seek Him, pray for others and that they will do the same. Act as Jesus did, do as He did, live the new life without owing anyone anything other than to love them.
I encourage people to a living faith, an active lifestyle that embraces all the fundamentals, all the time. "All nine all the time" sounds childish, boorish, to me now, like somethng I'd hear in a football game analysis. The whole attitude takes something eternal and incredible and turns it into a list of things-to-do and "believe for", greek words to be twisted and squeezed to gain some deeper understanding of what is already here, now and living in me.
One thing I learned in the Way - men will torture the life out of each other and every word in the Bible while condemning each other to hell, to get to some elevated stated of enlightened understanding and ignore mercy, forgiveness, grace.
There's that old saying - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"......in the Way we saw it as no, you can lead that horse to water and if you hose it down, stand it in 10 feet of water, show it pictures of water all day and say "water water water water water" a million times it will eventually just swallow whatever you're giving it to just get you to stop. It doesn't mean it liked it or won't bolt the minute you're not looking. And that isn't belief or faith or trust. How can God have the heart of a man or woman if they're only trying to please some lesser power or get something of lesser value than to please their Creator?
The line of people that want to start some new improved version of Christianity that's better than what's come before is pretty long. The line of those who give a dang about people, care for them and are willing to be as passionate about learning to forgive and love as they are about cutting out their lesser competition is much shorter.
“The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works.”
Psalm 145:8,9.
Very Good insight and practical application Socks. I give you a grade of "A" for your post. As an example of mercy, the book of Psalms was perhaps written by a number of authors along with the imperfect and sometimes sinful David and his son Solomon. Psalms is a book with many not long chapters. However, in doing additional research, David as a King was much better than Saul as a King. Saul was a crazy moron who could be considered demon possessed.
The original question - "Did Jesus 'do' 7 of the manifestations" - doesn't have much meaning for me - so I can't really answer it.
Why is that important? What would that mean to me or to my understanding of Jesus? Or who I am and the life I live.
Spiritual life is too mechanical the way that Dr. VPW taught it.
On the one hand he believed that "spirit" and things of the spirit can't be analyzed, can't be put into a test tube and broken down into an understanding produced by human, 5 sense analysis.
On the other hand he attempted to do exactly that when he proposed PFAL as a class on "How, with a capital H-O-W", to live the more than abundant life that Jesus promised.
One the one hand he believed that Jesus Christ promised a "more than abundant life" in all "categories that was only possible - "available" - when one was born again of God's spirit.
On the other hand he said he looked "round about me" in the community in which he lived and saw the "unbeliever" who wasn't born again living a life that was often "more abundant" than the "believers" in church.
Etc. etc. etc.
One of the great successes of PFAL's content is that it opens the Bible and reads it to the audience. "God's Word" is given preeminence, is made the authority and is the thing which must first be understood in order to understand everything else.
One of the great failures of PFAL's content is that it contrasts the "physical" and the "spiritual" in a way that never comes together for the listener to the end that they can ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND H-O-W it all works, as promised. In fact it comes together more as a conflicting set of conditions that never resolve, once assembled and listed out the way it's taught. Sure we're born again, "operating" God's spirit by session 12 - but GreaseSpot Cafe is a validation of an unfortunate but honest fact - many many of those who "took the Class" either faked or fumbled their way through a process that they later perfected through practice. "Excellors sessions" indeed.
Does that negate what the Bible teaches, what we can actually read? No.
In further fact I would contend that VPW's dualist theology, while based on biblical ideas and concepts, is really a non-biblical man's view of the spiritual universe described through out the Bible. The great "battle of the senses" and the "spiritual warfare" of Ephesians aren't described as a winnable "war", in this time frame before Christ's return to gather His Church together. It may be a fight but it's only a fight between losers. We "win" by choosing Christ, allowing God's sovereignty to reign in our hearts and living as best we can in the time we have.
VPW suggested as many many teachers have, that the emphasis in this life is to be placed on the "walk", the process, the sets of decisions and actions we take day after day......and our lives are made up of such things - but the emphasis of Christianity is that Christ bore the weight and responsibility of moving mankind forward and sets our paths towards the future. Thus there's no dualist ideal, no great division of good and evil and a war to see who "wins". God wins. Always, and always has, does and will. "Light and in whom there is no darkness". Once we are "seated in the heavenlies" of God's promises we are to no longer struggle to be better, or essentially see a problem where there is no longer one - rather we are to apply ourselves to "grow in grace" and grow in the abundance of God's gifts upon which our new life is made of. .
Period. That's it. The dualist, work-hard-win mindset isn't "the Believer's Lifestyle".
The earliest "believers" didn't have the time or the teaching to tweak doctrine the way we try to now. Their experience was real, the healings real in signifying God's greater presence and power, miracles that gave real human testimony to the spiritual. It wasn't like getting a perfect score on a test - it was Real Change, Real Life and Real Love.
Whether we or Jesus or my gramma "do" 7 of the 9 or 15 of the 20 or anything of anything is the wrong way to look at it. God's people need to stop being led around by the nose of that loser-ville jock-for-Jesus attitude that's been heaped on them. Start living the life. Start being "what God says you are".
Edited by socks No, improvising is wonderful. But, the thing is that you cannot improvise unless you know exactly what you're doing.
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Raf
Speaking as a moderator:
Please keep posts about the topic, not about the people.
And yeah, be nice.
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DontWorryBeHappy
And, perhaps, try being less smugly judgemental. That seems to help conversations around here. Try it.....you may like it. LOL!
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socks
Browsing and reading....
I think it has to do with perspective. What's the fundamental place from which I view this or any "technical" question in the Bible and from which I then get my view, my perspective that informs me?
Christianity, faith in Christ, life in "the way, the truth and the life" is a rebirth, a new birth, a new beginning for me. So then, a question - if I didn't know anything more about it than that, could I still live it? If all I knew was that I now follow Jesus Christ, and accept my own human condition as one requiring mercy and forgiveness to succeed, that Jesus Christ has acted on my behalf and bridged a gap I would have been unable to, and that the full life possible is to be "born again of God's spirit", or God's "life".....then what?
The most basic place to go from there is "living the life". And the question would be is it "on or off", active or passive, in wait mode for a future or in act mode, living now? I think we could agree it's on, it's active, it's a life to be lived. Everything I read in the New Testament encourages me to be patient and steadfast in living this new life now, while knowing death is not the end, that there is a future beyond that, a "hope" and that I must transition to that future. So again and still - what is this new life, this place from which I now live and work?
The question of "gifts or manifestations" and related issues answers itself then - we have a new life, in Christ. We are born again of God's spirit, we are God's children, we are new creation in Christ, we have a fresh new set of answers and ideas to bring to our fellow man -
Accept God's gift of forgiveness and mercy through Christ. Believe that God showed us the Way through death in Christ's resurrection, believe that God raised Him from the dead and that now we too can be raised into new life believing in that, and that the new life to come is our future. Believe it, say it. Now - forgive as you've been forgiven. Extend mercy as it's been shown to you. Lift others as you have been lifted. Pray to God and seek Him, pray for others and that they will do the same. Act as Jesus did, do as He did, live the new life without owing anyone anything other than to love them.
I encourage people to a living faith, an active lifestyle that embraces all the fundamentals, all the time. "All nine all the time" sounds childish, boorish, to me now, like somethng I'd hear in a football game analysis. The whole attitude takes something eternal and incredible and turns it into a list of things-to-do and "believe for", greek words to be twisted and squeezed to gain some deeper understanding of what is already here, now and living in me.
One thing I learned in the Way - men will torture the life out of each other and every word in the Bible while condemning each other to hell, to get to some elevated stated of enlightened understanding and ignore mercy, forgiveness, grace.
There's that old saying - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"......in the Way we saw it as no, you can lead that horse to water and if you hose it down, stand it in 10 feet of water, show it pictures of water all day and say "water water water water water" a million times it will eventually just swallow whatever you're giving it to just get you to stop. It doesn't mean it liked it or won't bolt the minute you're not looking. And that isn't belief or faith or trust. How can God have the heart of a man or woman if they're only trying to please some lesser power or get something of lesser value than to please their Creator?
The line of people that want to start some new improved version of Christianity that's better than what's come before is pretty long. The line of those who give a shit about people, care for them and are willing to be as passionate about learning to forgive and love as they are about cutting out their lesser competition is much shorter.
“The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works.”
Edited by socksPsalm 145:8,9.
You read the Bible, Brett? Well, there's this passage I got memorized, sorta fits the occasion.....
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Mark Sanguinetti
Very Good insight and practical application Socks. I give you a grade of "A" for your post. As an example of mercy, the book of Psalms was perhaps written by a number of authors along with the imperfect and sometimes sinful David and his son Solomon. Psalms is a book with many not long chapters. However, in doing additional research, David as a King was much better than Saul as a King. Saul was a crazy moron who could be considered demon possessed.
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socks
Thanks Mark.
The original question - "Did Jesus 'do' 7 of the manifestations" - doesn't have much meaning for me - so I can't really answer it.
Why is that important? What would that mean to me or to my understanding of Jesus? Or who I am and the life I live.
Spiritual life is too mechanical the way that Dr. VPW taught it.
On the one hand he believed that "spirit" and things of the spirit can't be analyzed, can't be put into a test tube and broken down into an understanding produced by human, 5 sense analysis.
On the other hand he attempted to do exactly that when he proposed PFAL as a class on "How, with a capital H-O-W", to live the more than abundant life that Jesus promised.
One the one hand he believed that Jesus Christ promised a "more than abundant life" in all "categories that was only possible - "available" - when one was born again of God's spirit.
On the other hand he said he looked "round about me" in the community in which he lived and saw the "unbeliever" who wasn't born again living a life that was often "more abundant" than the "believers" in church.
Etc. etc. etc.
One of the great successes of PFAL's content is that it opens the Bible and reads it to the audience. "God's Word" is given preeminence, is made the authority and is the thing which must first be understood in order to understand everything else.
One of the great failures of PFAL's content is that it contrasts the "physical" and the "spiritual" in a way that never comes together for the listener to the end that they can ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND H-O-W it all works, as promised. In fact it comes together more as a conflicting set of conditions that never resolve, once assembled and listed out the way it's taught. Sure we're born again, "operating" God's spirit by session 12 - but GreaseSpot Cafe is a validation of an unfortunate but honest fact - many many of those who "took the Class" either faked or fumbled their way through a process that they later perfected through practice. "Excellors sessions" indeed.
Does that negate what the Bible teaches, what we can actually read? No.
In further fact I would contend that VPW's dualist theology, while based on biblical ideas and concepts, is really a non-biblical man's view of the spiritual universe described through out the Bible. The great "battle of the senses" and the "spiritual warfare" of Ephesians aren't described as a winnable "war", in this time frame before Christ's return to gather His Church together. It may be a fight but it's only a fight between losers. We "win" by choosing Christ, allowing God's sovereignty to reign in our hearts and living as best we can in the time we have.
VPW suggested as many many teachers have, that the emphasis in this life is to be placed on the "walk", the process, the sets of decisions and actions we take day after day......and our lives are made up of such things - but the emphasis of Christianity is that Christ bore the weight and responsibility of moving mankind forward and sets our paths towards the future. Thus there's no dualist ideal, no great division of good and evil and a war to see who "wins". God wins. Always, and always has, does and will. "Light and in whom there is no darkness". Once we are "seated in the heavenlies" of God's promises we are to no longer struggle to be better, or essentially see a problem where there is no longer one - rather we are to apply ourselves to "grow in grace" and grow in the abundance of God's gifts upon which our new life is made of. .
Period. That's it. The dualist, work-hard-win mindset isn't "the Believer's Lifestyle".
The earliest "believers" didn't have the time or the teaching to tweak doctrine the way we try to now. Their experience was real, the healings real in signifying God's greater presence and power, miracles that gave real human testimony to the spiritual. It wasn't like getting a perfect score on a test - it was Real Change, Real Life and Real Love.
Whether we or Jesus or my gramma "do" 7 of the 9 or 15 of the 20 or anything of anything is the wrong way to look at it. God's people need to stop being led around by the nose of that loser-ville jock-for-Jesus attitude that's been heaped on them. Start living the life. Start being "what God says you are".
Edited by socksNo, improvising is wonderful. But, the thing is that you cannot improvise unless you know exactly what you're doing.
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