1 Corinthians 12 - manifestation of the spirit.

[rrobs]

I took PFAL in the late 60's. I never really understood the whole, "to profit" thing when it talks about the nine ways the spirit manifests. I know from the Greek that the word "to" has to refer to a person (case endings dictated that), not the manifestation, as we were taught.

I knew from experience that I could get word of knowledge, wisdom, etc. I had seen miracles and healing, so I knew on some level that we could operate 9 manifestations. Still, my belief was based on experience mostly, and the word just a bit. Knowing the overall message of the Bible also led me to believe in the manifestations. But I was never totally comfortable with 1 Cor 12.

Not long ago I got hit with a lightening bolt. Jesus plainly said we would do the works he did and then some (John 14:12). Well that settled it once and for all in my mind. I do believe Jesus did all the things mentioned in 1 Cor 12 with the notable exception of tongues and interpretation of tongues. Are those the greater works Jesus mentioned? If so, that is pretty significant. But maybe he was talking about something else.

Any input from anybody?

Edited July 5, 2017 by rrobs
typo

[Infoabsorption]

I think we have put too much mind into these spiritual things. I mean we were arguing that there is a difference between spiritual gifts and manifestations. I think the manifestations are spiritual gifts. To receive these spiritual gifts maybe we need to clean our act up and get close to the Lord. I think it's more than just "believing" for them. If one is a bad representative is God going to bestow spiritual power to that person? I saw very few genuine spiritual happenings while involved with TWI, although there were a few. I think it's not just a problem with TWI followers(and ex followers) but Christians in general especially in the USA and Europe. One of the biggest problems is the fact we've become too materialistic which in our culture is very hard to avoid. Perhaps we've been blocking the reception of these spiritual gifts. I no longer buy into the prosperity gospel. Not that God wants us to live in poverty but we are so focused on making gobs of money that we may be getting close to the realm of idolatry. I'm speaking in general terms and I'm not pointing fingers because I'm in this boat as well.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Infoabsorption

[WordWolf]

My OPINION is that-if it refers to us as well as the people he spoke to at the time-  then it refers to having the pleasure of leading people into "The New Birth."  Before Jesus ascended, people could do lots of supernatural things, but not that.

Also, I think twi fetishized speaking in tongues and added so many things to their practice that it didn't resemble actual speaking in tongues.

 

 

[Infoabsorption]

7 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

My OPINION is that-if it refers to us as well as the people he spoke to at the time-  then it refers to having the pleasure of leading people into "The New Birth."  Before Jesus ascended, people could do lots of supernatural things, but not that.

Also, I think twi fetishized speaking in tongues and added so many things to their practice that it didn't resemble actual speaking in tongues.

 

 

Without a doubt speaking in tongues TWI style was the most phony aspect of TWI I've ever experienced. Actually I don't think I've ever experienced genuine SIT.  I've been to some contemporary non-denominational churches that had phony speaking in tongues almost as bad as TWI and phony miracles as well.  

[TLC]

The difference between having only heard, read of, or talked about different dispensations, and knowing, understanding or believing what those exact differences really are and mean (on a practical level)...   are miles apart.  And whether you do or don't suppose that VPW (and hence, TWI) somehow falls into the later part of that statement (as I once upon a time did), well... you may still want to consider the possibility that you're still miles apart from what the truth might on these things actually be.   

Some here are unabashedly convinced that dispensations are a farce, the imaginations of one or two scholars from an earlier century or so.  Anybody that's ever been on prescription medication ought to know the dangers of swallowing down that which is plainly prescribed to (i.e., dispensed) and intended for the benefit of somebody.  Yet, when it concerns God and the scriptures, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to them that Jesus Christ was a minister to the circumcision.  Jesus was a great healer... so I'll take a mighty strong dose of whatever he gave them there people,  Surely won't have any ill effects on us, will it?

[TLC]

53 minutes ago, Infoabsorption said:

One of the biggest problems is the fact we've become too materialistic which in our culture is very hard to avoid. Perhaps we've been blocking the reception of these spiritual gifts. I no longer buy into the prosperity gospel.

Israel was (always was), and from what I can tell, always will be, focused on the material realm.  In fact, so much so, that it seems reasonable to think and say that it was and is (at least in part) the natural result of their being "chosen" (i.e., favored) by God above all other nations on earth.  It was even evidenced in the Mosaic law.  Do this, and you will prosper.  Do that, and I will multiply you.  Don't do this, or you will have sickness and disease.  Etc., etc...

"Show us a sign..."  And God did.  Over, and over, and over...

What did, or could, they believe without signs, miracles, and wonders? (hint:  not a dang thing.)  Shoot, only a very small few (a remnant) scraped by, believing (or partly believing) that God was the reason behind whatever signs and wonders did happen.  The promises of prosperity, right along with every other promise that the prophets, or that Jesus Christ himself spoke, were ALL (without exception) directed towards (dispensed to) Israel.  

So, just think about that for a while.  And while you're at it, why is it that these manifestations of the spirit, if they're all so darn important to have or see every single day in every one of our lives, are really only discussed and brought to prominence in the epistle addressed to these carnally minded Corinthians... who undoubted sought and chased hard after them in order to "prove" their spirituality to those around them?

Yes, manifestations of the spirit can and do occur.  Yes, they can and do benefit the church of the body.  Yes, it is good that we can recognize and properly acknowledge them when they do occur.  Yet, is it not primarily God's prerogative when and where they occur, and not our great "mission" in life to find or experience them?  Though experiencing any of them can indeed be a blessing, I've become more inclined to think believing that it's God at work within us to will and to do of His good pleasure (even though we might not actually see or recognize it as such) is more peaceful, and even more rewarding.  

 

 

 

 

 

[waysider]

How do we know Jesus didn't speak in tongues? Speaking in tongues predates the time of Christ.

[Bolshevik]

If someone gets hit with a lightning bolt that could mess with their heart and they should probably go see a real doctor.  

[Raf]

Be nice.

[rrobs]

8 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

If someone gets hit with a lightning bolt that could mess with their heart and they should probably go see a real doctor.  

Haven't been to a doctor for ages and ages. God healed me from the lighting strike.

 

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, rrobs said:

Haven't been to a doctor for ages and ages. God healed me from the lighting strike.

 

Hey that's the spirit.

[chockfull]

On 7/5/2017 at 0:50 PM, rrobs said:

I took PFAL in the late 60's. I never really understood the whole, "to profit" thing when it talks about the nine ways the spirit manifests. I know from the Greek that the word "to" has to refer to a person (case endings dictated that), not the manifestation, as we were taught.

I knew from experience that I could get word of knowledge, wisdom, etc. I had seen miracles and healing, so I knew on some level that we could operate 9 manifestations. Still, my belief was based on experience mostly, and the word just a bit. Knowing the overall message of the Bible also led me to believe in the manifestations. But I was never totally comfortable with 1 Cor 12.

Not long ago I got hit with a lightening bolt. Jesus plainly said we would do the works he did and then some (John 14:12). Well that settled it once and for all in my mind. I do believe Jesus did all the things mentioned in 1 Cor 12 with the notable exception of tongues and interpretation of tongues. Are those the greater works Jesus mentioned? If so, that is pretty significant. But maybe he was talking about something else.

Any input from anybody?

Yes.  He was encouraging them.  It was figurative language.  Like I tell my kids "you'll grow up to do so many greater things in the world than I have".  

Now perhaps Dake, or others with extreme OCD would want to enumerate works and compare.  

But the whole "see I told you so Jesus prophesied that we would do all 9 all the time" vision of John 14:12 with acrobat logic over to I Cor 12 is a very PFAL like interpretation of all of that.  I mean I haven't watched those tapes in decades but the ole VP logic of "what are those greater works?" SIT, no, no, no.

I mean when I read John 14 the whole chapter in context it doesn't really seem to flow to drill in on minutae to try and prove something in one of Paul's letters.  That doesn't seem to be looking at it in the spirit of Jesus' intentions speaking it.  He was preparing them, comforting them, and shedding light on a few details to be seen later about the comforter.

[rrobs]

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yes.  He was encouraging them.  It was figurative language.  Like I tell my kids "you'll grow up to do so many greater things in the world than I have".  

Now perhaps Dake, or others with extreme OCD would want to enumerate works and compare.  

But the whole "see I told you so Jesus prophesied that we would do all 9 all the time" vision of John 14:12 with acrobat logic over to I Cor 12 is a very PFAL like interpretation of all of that.  I mean I haven't watched those tapes in decades but the ole VP logic of "what are those greater works?" SIT, no, no, no.

I mean when I read John 14 the whole chapter in context it doesn't really seem to flow to drill in on minutae to try and prove something in one of Paul's letters.  That doesn't seem to be looking at it in the spirit of Jesus' intentions speaking it.  He was preparing them, comforting them, and shedding light on a few details to be seen later about the comforter.

The question remains, did Jesus do 7 of the 9 things in 1 Cor or not? Furthermore, did he or did he not say they would also do those things? I'm not talking about the greater works. Was God OCD for enumerating 9 ways the spirit manifests? 

[rrobs]

On 7/5/2017 at 4:34 PM, Infoabsorption said:

I think we have put too much mind into these spiritual things. I mean we were arguing that there is a difference between spiritual gifts and manifestations. I think the manifestations are spiritual gifts. To receive these spiritual gifts maybe we need to clean our act up and get close to the Lord. I think it's more than just "believing" for them. If one is a bad representative is God going to bestow spiritual power to that person? I saw very few genuine spiritual happenings while involved with TWI, although there were a few. I think it's not just a problem with TWI followers(and ex followers) but Christians in general especially in the USA and Europe. One of the biggest problems is the fact we've become too materialistic which in our culture is very hard to avoid. Perhaps we've been blocking the reception of these spiritual gifts. I no longer buy into the prosperity gospel. Not that God wants us to live in poverty but we are so focused on making gobs of money that we may be getting close to the realm of idolatry. I'm speaking in general terms and I'm not pointing fingers because I'm in this boat as well.

The language of 1 Cor 12 definitely makes a distinction between gifts and manifestations. We should also. Otherwise we are saying God's opinion doesn't matter. That won't go anywhere.

Although some say manifestations, the Bible uses the singular. 

1Cor 12:7: But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

That first word, but, sets the manifestation apart from the gifts in the first part of the chapter.

 

 

[Infoabsorption]

the "manifestation of the Spirit is given".    It is a gift! or it wouldn't say given. Dude you're still brainwashed.

[Infoabsorption]

rrobs,

The point I was trying to make with my initial reply was the fact that VPW was splitting hairs regarding 1st Corinthians chapter 12. I think his argument is absolutely ridiculous.  VPW's interpretation of 1st Cor. chapter 12 is another example of him claiming to have special knowledge of Scripture that no one else has. 

[waysider]

rrobs

Try using something other than PFAL material as your point of reference.

[DontWorryBeHappy]

That's impossible waysider! NOTHING captain robson "shares"  is anything but his own brilliant insights based on that huge dose of pneuma hagion he was endowed with after he saw the snow in his cockpit. It's all his own, remember? He hates veepee, and refuses to even talk about him, remember? Kinda like veepee and B.G. Leonard. Captain  wrongWay Peachfuzz never learned anything from J.E. Stiles, or B.G., or Ethelbert. Nope! It was ALL dictor paul. How dare you accuse the captain of just vomiting out old DPW plagiarisms, delusions, and drunken Nazi rants. Look at all the scholastic, and textual evidence he has so far provided? Look at all the questions he refuses to answer? Not because he doesn't know all the answers like dictor Paul his personal revelator, but because YOU are too dumb, resistant to truth, cravenly UN-spurchal, prideful, lazy, and far too intellectually and spiritually lazy to receive the pearls of the incredible wisdom and wit wrapped in the beautiful package of manure that captain wierwille presents. I love the smell of bull manure in the evening! It smells like Victor-y! LMAO! Fly on captain! 

[Twinky]

To start with, "all nine all the time" is such nonsense.  "All the time"?  Someone's working miracles "all the time"?  Healing people "all the time"?  If one is alone, who is being healed or having a miracle performed for their benefit?  Is the person who is alone in such constant prayer that every second they are healing someone at some remote location?  (Or rather, praying for someone to be healed?)

Not even Jesus was healing people or working miracles "all the time"!

For myself, I prefer to live a life that's quietly in line with what God wants, not "talking to" anyone but constantly trying to line up my heart and my thinking up with what I know and understand from the Bible.  But when I get in conversation, it is amazing how many times someone will say something and my response is nothing planned but the other person says, "That's just what I needed to hear!"or "That's so helpful!" and I perceive these to be words of wisdom that God has given me to speak to that person at that moment. 

It may also be that God is working in the heart of the other person to be able to receive such words.  (I say it, he hears it; God energises both.)

Perhaps that's how it works for all the evidence (manifestation) of the gift that is within us.  Jesus was pleaded with for help, healing; in his compassion he prayed for it and there was a healing, a miracle. Blood flows ceased, the dead were raised, crowds fed. 

Passion = strong feeling or emotion.  Com = with.  Compassion = strong feeling or emotion, shared with someone else, individual or group.

[Taxidev]

On 7/5/2017 at 2:50 PM, rrobs said:

Jesus plainly said we would do the works he did and then some

There is a huge difference between works and abilities.  Having the ability to discern a devil spirit is vastly different than casting that devil spirit out.  

On 7/5/2017 at 8:04 PM, WordWolf said:

it refers to having the pleasure of leading people into "The New Birth." 

I'm inclined to agree.  This would absolutely be one of the "greater works".  I have been pondering on what the others would or could be.

On 7/5/2017 at 8:16 PM, Infoabsorption said:

Without a doubt speaking in tongues TWI style was the most phony aspect of TWI I've ever experienced.

I have also found this.  After a while I realized people were babbling the same 8 or 10 sounds, with a vastly different message each time.  How could that be?

I think Infoabsorption hit it on the head with this one:

On 7/5/2017 at 7:34 PM, Infoabsorption said:

To receive these spiritual gifts maybe we need to clean our act up and get close to the Lord.

 

On 7/11/2017 at 5:52 AM, Twinky said:

To start with, "all nine all the time" is such nonsense.  "All the time"?

Agreed, Twinky.  Just another catch phrase to lock us in.

And this brings me to my big question: in 1 Cor 12 I am unsure of this section -

1Co 12:4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 
1Co 12:5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 
1Co 12:6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 
1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 
1Co 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 
1Co 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 
1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 
1Co 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 

Often I can look at Thayer and Strong for the Greek, but this section isn't as clear as others I've looked at.  The direction and the operator of these verbs is what I'm having issue with, probably because of years of TWI teachings.  But I'm leaning toward not everyone has all of them, at least not at first.

Any ideas?

[jim jack]

in my study of divine healing recently, this question of "greater works" was addressed..as I'm not so sure this is right but I'll throw it out there..

 

they basically were saying that the greater works would be an outreach to a greater number of people.. I can minister healing over the phone "long distance " & get results based on God working thru me etc...whereas Jesus could only be in one place at one time. So in terms of outreach in the area of healing for example...this could be greatly multiplied out if believers realized the power within themselves & began to minister..even if over the phone, which of course wasn't available in Jesus' day..just think of the potential out there...so yeh I "hear that" and  HOPE that is the way God would like us to rise up in life & be for people.. Typically people who know about the laying on of hands tend to not offer it..perhaps fearful that they will see no immediate results & then look foolish..so to minister by phone is a great way to love others & set them free..

I agree with the poster about all 9 all da time..lol..as I think all nine are designed for us who believe, but obviously I'm doing alot of other things in life where these might be an interference of sorts..so the concept would appear to be very unrealistic..but  sure is thought provoking huh??

 

I do like the word "evidence" for manifestation..what does happen if we were manifesting Jesus in our lives...? the blind would see ..the deaf would hear & the dead would or could be raised....as Jesus did w can do also!!..the question is..will we make the attempt or just have head knowledge about it.

[waysider]

 

[jim jack]

since we're "really not" supposed to name names..still I could just see "LJ" on the bongos/drums" in this song...cool song..thanx WS

 

Bible is clear "ask anything in my name & it shall be given him"..what an awesome God & savior who loves us with "oceans" of love..almost unfathomable..huh??

 

[sastian]

On 7/10/2017 at 6:06 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

That's impossible waysider! NOTHING captain robson "shares"  is anything but his own brilliant insights based on that huge dose of pneuma hagion he was endowed with after he saw the snow in his cockpit. It's all his own, remember? He hates veepee, and refuses to even talk about him, remember? Kinda like veepee and B.G. Leonard. Captain  wrongWay Peachfuzz never learned anything from J.E. Stiles, or B.G., or Ethelbert. Nope! It was ALL dictor paul. How dare you accuse the captain of just vomiting out old DPW plagiarisms, delusions, and drunken Nazi rants. Look at all the scholastic, and textual evidence he has so far provided? Look at all the questions he refuses to answer? Not because he doesn't know all the answers like dictor Paul his personal revelator, but because YOU are too dumb, resistant to truth, cravenly UN-spurchal, prideful, lazy, and far too intellectually and spiritually lazy to receive the pearls of the incredible wisdom and wit wrapped in the beautiful package of manure that captain wierwille presents. I love the smell of bull manure in the evening! It smells like Victor-y! LMAO! Fly on captain! 

looking forward to your loving replies to my posts in the future.

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Don’t hold your breath! LOL!