There is nothing in that verse that even remotely suggests the bible is divided into separate compartments.
Without going into further detail, i might suggest some other discussions that have taken place of that very same word that has been translated as dispensation in that verse. I'm not very good at searches but there is a search window at the top.
The word dispensation in Ephesians 11:10 is the Greek word oikonomia. In other places it is translated administration.
Strong's Concordance: administration (of a household or estate).
Morish Bible Dictionary: Dispensation, oikonomia. This is literally 'administration of a house,' an 'economy,' and hence an ordered dealing with men by God in the varied administration of his ways at different times. In reviewing God's administrations with man, we may notice the state of innocence in Eden, though it hardly partook of the character of a dispensation. One law was given to Adam and Eve, and obedience was required, the penalty being announced if they failed.
This was followed by the lengthy period of nearly 1600 years till the flood — a time of no ordered dealing of God with men, during which men corrupted their way, and the earth was filled with violence. Then the world was 'spoken to' by God in the person of Noah, who was 'a preacher of righteousness;' and their repentance was waited for in long-suffering mercy while the ark was preparing. 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5. They repented not and the old world was destroyed. In the post-diluvian world government of man by his fellow was established by God, while a knowledge of God, as a God who judged evil, was spread abroad by the descendants of Noah; traditions of the Flood being found all over the earth. This was an additional testimony for God. Then followed the division of the earth into various nations and tribes, according to their families and tongues. Among these ignorance of God prevailed in spite of the testimony of God's power and divinity, and the admonition of conscience spoken of in Rom. 1, 2.
About 360 years after the deluge the Patriarchal Age was begun by the call of Abraham, a new and sovereign dealing of God; but this was confined to Abraham and his descendants.
The Dispensation of the Law followed, strictly the first publicly ordered system of God's dealing with men, and administered by angels. The oracles of God were given to a nation, the only nation in all the earth that God had known in this way. Amos 3:2. It was the dispensation of 'Do this, and live and be blessed; disobey, and be cursed.' This dispensation had three phases:
a. About 400 years under the Judges, when God would have been their king, but during which time every one did that which was right in his own eyes.
b. 500 years as a kingdom under royalty.
c. 600 years from the captivity to the coming of Christ. Connected with this was prophetic testimony: the law and the prophets were until John. Luke 16:16.
During this 'Dispensation of Law' the Times of the Gentiles commenced in the political supremacy of Nebuchadnezzar, the head of gold and king of kings. Dan. 51:37, 38. They still run their course, and will continue until the Lord Jesus commences His reign.
2. The Dispensation of Grace and Truth commenced, after the preaching of John, by the advent of Christ. During this economy the gospel is preached to every creature under heaven, and the calling out of the Church takes place, extending as a parenthesis, from the day of Pentecost to the rapture of the saints. Acts 2:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Paul had a special 'dispensation' committed to him by God, both as to the gospel and to fulfil the word of God by the doctrine of the church as the body of Christ. 1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 3:2, 3; Col. 1:25, 26.
3. The Dispensation of the Reign of Christ over the earth during the millennium. It is also called 'the dispensation of the fulness of times.' Eph. 1:10; Rev. 20:1-6. See MILLENNIUM.
Under these varied administrations the goodness and faithfulness of God shine out, and the failure of man is everywhere made manifest.
I see a lot of cherry picked scripture references supposedly supporting a man-made concept. What I don't see is something showing me the Bible has been sub divided into neat little compartments. But, hey, if that's what you need to make it all fit like a hand in a sock, more power to you.
Then, by all means, why not go ahead (it's been 3 days) and offer up your "painfully easy to state" answer (to something, which evidently puzzled TWI's research team for years)?
Or, did you not receive many PM's on this, and still want or need more time for a better answer to show up?
Then, by all means, why not go ahead (it's been 3 days) and offer up your "painfully easy to state" answer (to something, which evidently puzzled TWI's research team for years)?
Or, did you not receive many PM's on this, and still want or need more time for a better answer to show up?
I guess I'll be the party-pooper who spills the bean dip. There is no difference. There, I said it. It might have been Steve Lortz or Raf who examined this rather extensively, I'm not sure. If not, I offer my preemptive apology to whoever it was that did the leg work. It's all here if you are curious enough to seek it out. Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are used synonymously in the scriptures.
That's a huuuuge assumption, especially when you factor in chronology. Remember...the gospels were written quite a bit AFTER the epistles. At any rate, the audience would have been limited and you can't know what depth of understanding someone might have come away with.
Regardless of when the Gospels were written, Jesus said a lot of things to the Apostles. Now, because the written Gospels came some time later, we didn't know what he told them, but they certainly would have known what he told them. So now, after the Gospels were written, we too can know a lot of what he told them. No assumptions needed...it's all written down for anybody who is interested.
I see a lot of cherry picked scripture references supposedly supporting a man-made concept. What I don't see is something showing me the Bible has been sub divided into neat little compartments. But, hey, if that's what you need to make it all fit like a hand in a sock, more power to you.
Been to the garden of Eden lately? Or how about the new heavens and new earth, been there lately? Of course not! Why? Because they are different compartments. We are currently in the grace compartment.
You are right about me needing different administrations to make sense out of the Bible. At least I can.
If you need a non-scriptural concept to make sense of scripture, you may want to reexamine your methodology.
1Cor 12:5,
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
If it's in the scriptures, it's scriptural. My methodology is to read it. If you understood that sentence, why the problem understanding 1 Cor 12:5? Both pretty straight forward language.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
If it's in the scriptures, it's scriptural. My methodology is to read it. If you understood that sentence, why the problem understanding 1 Cor 12:5? Both pretty straight forward language.
So you're saying that verse proves the Bible is chronologically compartmentalized?
I see a lot of cherry picked scripture references supposedly supporting a man-made concept. What I don't see is something showing me the Bible has been sub divided into neat little compartments. But, hey, if that's what you need to make it all fit like a hand in a sock, more power to you.
Maybe 2 Cor 4:4 explains why you can't see it. I hope that's not the case for your sake, but it looks like that may very well be your problem. But not to worry, with God all things are possible and the scales may fall from your eyes yet.
I'm clearly superior to the the typical gsc cult follower, both in wit and scriptural knowledge. You guys should humble yourselves and learn from me.
I didn't ask you what Bullinger or Darby said. I asked you what the scriptures say.
The scriptures also say it. Check out the words, "administration" and "dispensation" in a concordance. I'll help get you started in your own research so you don't have to rely on my, vp, or gsc (get the rhyme there? ) for the answer:
Eph 2:1-7,
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
In those verses your have in time past (v2), present (v6) and the future (v7). They are quite distinct from each other.
If you go from there, you will see that they all represent very different ways God deals with man in the different times.
Did the death and resurrection of Jesus change anything? I would say a major affirmative on that. Different times, different "rules."
Then, by all means, why not go ahead (it's been 3 days) and offer up your "painfully easy to state" answer (to something, which evidently puzzled TWI's research team for years)?
Or, did you not receive many PM's on this, and still want or need more time for a better answer to show up?
Sorry I didn't respond immediately to your 2nd pm, but occasionally life interferes with my internet posting, and it did so again. This question was answered a long time ago. The oddest part is WHO spilled the beans on this one originally. That was CHR1S G33R of all people. Mr "I'm enshrining wierwille's stuff" himself had to address this because he came across it, and it was too blatant to leave alone. That was back in the early 1990s, with a 2-tape set on the subject (I used to joke that it was one tape per kingdom.) However, the subject really didn't take long to cover. Bullinger came up with it, and it was one of the incidents (there were others) where Bullinger came up with something and decided that was true without tying it to the Biblical usages. vpw, naturally, plagiarized him without checking out whether or not it was so (vpw was a LAZY plagiarist and often didn't understand what he plagiarized.) However, there's few Biblical usages of EITHER phrase, and they're used in parallel verses to make IDENTICAL points in the SYNOPTIC Gospels. There is no BIBLICAL justification for saying they're 2 different things. The only justification is "if God meant one thing he would have used one word, not two", but this isn't the only example where there's 2 words or phrases that mean the same thing. Language is NOT mathematically exact-which means communication CANNOT be mathematically exact. There's a beauty and a poetry in a living language that would evade a cold, calculated language.
I'll expound on the subject as soon as I have a reasonable amount of time, but really, it just takes the reading of the verses side-by-side and a willingness to let their overt meaning be the conclusion. In the meantime, someone linked to a discussion where it was already explained. Everyone except the vpw fanatics on that thread was able to follow without difficulty.
Push and pull seem so common and ordinary in our experience of life that we humans think little of these forces. Most of us assume they are simple opposites. In and out. Back and forth. Force directed in one direction or its opposite. However whether something pushes or pulls something else, there is a difference. A couple of examples will illustrate.
Imagine pushing a ping pong ball on a smooth table with the point of a sharp pencil. The ball would always roll away from the direction of the push, first rolling one way then the other. Now imagine the difference, if you attach a string to the ping pong ball with tape, and pull it toward you. The string would always bring it directly towards you.
Another example from common experience occurs when pulling a trailer with a car. When your car is pulling the trailer uphill, you are pulling against gravity. The trailer can not push the car while going uphill. The trailer falls in line nicely behind your car. Now if you are driving downhill too slow, the trailer may begin to push the car instead of the car pulling the trailer. This produces a strong, unpredictable side to side force. Your trailer will begin to sway from side to side. If not corrected a violent crash will almost certainly result.
Our standing and state are like the car pulling the trailer. The car is your standing, the trailer your state. The same could be said for doctrine and your walk. The doctrine is the car, your walk is the trailer. To maintain order, the doctrine must pull the walk. Your walk will naturally line up with correct doctrine. However, the moment the walk begins to push the doctrine, order gives way to chaos. If left unchecked for some period of time, the doctrine will be forgotten and replaced by man’s reasoning. Walking a Christian walk is simply out of the question when that happens.
The Corinthians were letting their walk push the doctrine. They became so focused on being a “good Christian” that they forgot the things from the book of Romans. They were sincere but they didn’t realize that their walk was, in fact, contrary to that doctrine. It wasn’t long before the doctrine was basically gone. That is where the Galatians were when Paul wrote his epistle to them. Their walk had so warped the doctrine that the doctrine was corrupted to the point that it no longer lined up much at all with God’s word. Religion and the denominations that thrive on that religion are the end of that path.
Bottom line: get the doctrine straight and the walk will naturally be lined up with the doctrine. Without a thorough knowledge of the doctrine, the walk will be nothing but vain attempts at self justification. Instead of trying to be a good Christian, look at what God has already made you. The only place to learn that is in the Bible.
Just curious. Is this you pulling your own trailer here? Or you cut and pasting someone else's words into GSC's "trailer" ???
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chockfull
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rrobs
But you'll never know for sure.
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T-Bone
What are the five things you must know to receive anything from a troll ?
1. Know what’s available: bull$hit, lies, and deception
2. Know how to receive it: engage a troll in a discussion about “The Word”, PFAL, or wierwille
3. Know what to do with it after you’ve got it: flush it down the toilet
4. Have your needs and wants parallel: I definitely don’t need or want bull$hit, lies, and deception
5. Know a troll's willingness equals their ability: yup – see # 1 & #2 (though both technically are a # 2) – a "good" troll has it all!
Edited by T-Boneintegrity and accuracy
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rrobs
The word dispensation in Ephesians 11:10 is the Greek word oikonomia. In other places it is translated administration.
Strong's Concordance: administration (of a household or estate).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morish Bible Dictionary: Dispensation, oikonomia. This is literally 'administration of a house,' an 'economy,' and hence an ordered dealing with men by God in the varied administration of his ways at different times. In reviewing God's administrations with man, we may notice the state of innocence in Eden, though it hardly partook of the character of a dispensation. One law was given to Adam and Eve, and obedience was required, the penalty being announced if they failed.
This was followed by the lengthy period of nearly 1600 years till the flood — a time of no ordered dealing of God with men, during which men corrupted their way, and the earth was filled with violence. Then the world was 'spoken to' by God in the person of Noah, who was 'a preacher of righteousness;' and their repentance was waited for in long-suffering mercy while the ark was preparing. 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5. They repented not and the old world was destroyed. In the post-diluvian world government of man by his fellow was established by God, while a knowledge of God, as a God who judged evil, was spread abroad by the descendants of Noah; traditions of the Flood being found all over the earth. This was an additional testimony for God. Then followed the division of the earth into various nations and tribes, according to their families and tongues. Among these ignorance of God prevailed in spite of the testimony of God's power and divinity, and the admonition of conscience spoken of in Rom. 1, 2.
About 360 years after the deluge the Patriarchal Age was begun by the call of Abraham, a new and sovereign dealing of God; but this was confined to Abraham and his descendants.
The Dispensation of the Law followed, strictly the first publicly ordered system of God's dealing with men, and administered by angels. The oracles of God were given to a nation, the only nation in all the earth that God had known in this way. Amos 3:2. It was the dispensation of 'Do this, and live and be blessed; disobey, and be cursed.' This dispensation had three phases:
a. About 400 years under the Judges, when God would have been their king, but during which time every one did that which was right in his own eyes.
b. 500 years as a kingdom under royalty.
c. 600 years from the captivity to the coming of Christ. Connected with this was prophetic testimony: the law and the prophets were until John. Luke 16:16.
During this 'Dispensation of Law' the Times of the Gentiles commenced in the political supremacy of Nebuchadnezzar, the head of gold and king of kings. Dan. 51:37, 38. They still run their course, and will continue until the Lord Jesus commences His reign.
2. The Dispensation of Grace and Truth commenced, after the preaching of John, by the advent of Christ. During this economy the gospel is preached to every creature under heaven, and the calling out of the Church takes place, extending as a parenthesis, from the day of Pentecost to the rapture of the saints. Acts 2:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Paul had a special 'dispensation' committed to him by God, both as to the gospel and to fulfil the word of God by the doctrine of the church as the body of Christ. 1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 3:2, 3; Col. 1:25, 26.
3. The Dispensation of the Reign of Christ over the earth during the millennium. It is also called 'the dispensation of the fulness of times.' Eph. 1:10; Rev. 20:1-6. See MILLENNIUM.
Under these varied administrations the goodness and faithfulness of God shine out, and the failure of man is everywhere made manifest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lot's more info on the web. Just Google it. God bless.
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waysider
I see a lot of cherry picked scripture references supposedly supporting a man-made concept. What I don't see is something showing me the Bible has been sub divided into neat little compartments. But, hey, if that's what you need to make it all fit like a hand in a sock, more power to you.
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TLC
Is that so...
Then, by all means, why not go ahead (it's been 3 days) and offer up your "painfully easy to state" answer (to something, which evidently puzzled TWI's research team for years)?
Or, did you not receive many PM's on this, and still want or need more time for a better answer to show up?
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waysider
I guess I'll be the party-pooper who spills the bean dip. There is no difference. There, I said it. It might have been Steve Lortz or Raf who examined this rather extensively, I'm not sure. If not, I offer my preemptive apology to whoever it was that did the leg work. It's all here if you are curious enough to seek it out. Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are used synonymously in the scriptures.
edit: There is THIS for starters...
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/19171-kingdom-of-god-vs-kingdom-of-heaven/
Edited by waysideradd link
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rrobs
Regardless of when the Gospels were written, Jesus said a lot of things to the Apostles. Now, because the written Gospels came some time later, we didn't know what he told them, but they certainly would have known what he told them. So now, after the Gospels were written, we too can know a lot of what he told them. No assumptions needed...it's all written down for anybody who is interested.
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rrobs
Been to the garden of Eden lately? Or how about the new heavens and new earth, been there lately? Of course not! Why? Because they are different compartments. We are currently in the grace compartment.
You are right about me needing different administrations to make sense out of the Bible. At least I can.
Edited by rrobstypo
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waysider
If you need a non-scriptural concept to make sense of scripture, you may want to reexamine your methodology.
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rrobs
1Cor 12:5,
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
If it's in the scriptures, it's scriptural. My methodology is to read it. If you understood that sentence, why the problem understanding 1 Cor 12:5? Both pretty straight forward language.
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waysider
So you're saying that verse proves the Bible is chronologically compartmentalized?
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rrobs
Maybe 2 Cor 4:4 explains why you can't see it. I hope that's not the case for your sake, but it looks like that may very well be your problem. But not to worry, with God all things are possible and the scales may fall from your eyes yet.
I'm clearly superior to the the typical gsc cult follower, both in wit and scriptural knowledge. You guys should humble yourselves and learn from me.
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rrobs
Chronology, by nature is compartmentalized. Now is now, then is then, and what will be is what will be.
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TLC
lol...
neither does (nor can) a colorblind person see much of any difference between these:
Say or explain to them whatever you want, they will never "get" or see the difference that you do.
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waysider
Heavy, dude!
Allow me to rephrase my comment:
Are you saying that, in light of of this verse, the Bible has offered proof of itself that it's been sub-divided into distinct time periods?
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waysider
May I kiss your ring, Your Holiness?
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rrobs
Yes. Bullinger, Daraby and others see it that way also. Either could explain it to you better than I. Check 'em out.
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rrobs
Easy there, my friend. I'm not into fetishes!
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waysider
I didn't ask you what Bullinger or Darby said. I asked you what the scriptures say.
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rrobs
The scriptures also say it. Check out the words, "administration" and "dispensation" in a concordance. I'll help get you started in your own research so you don't have to rely on my, vp, or gsc (get the rhyme there?
) for the answer:
Eph 2:1-7,
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
In those verses your have in time past (v2), present (v6) and the future (v7). They are quite distinct from each other.
If you go from there, you will see that they all represent very different ways God deals with man in the different times.
Did the death and resurrection of Jesus change anything? I would say a major affirmative on that. Different times, different "rules."
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rrobs
I see V and P. LMAO.
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waysider
HERE is an old discussion that may interest you.
edit: Please be aware that some of the people who posted in this thread have since passed away.
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WordWolf
Sorry I didn't respond immediately to your 2nd pm, but occasionally life interferes with my internet posting, and it did so again. This question was answered a long time ago. The oddest part is WHO spilled the beans on this one originally. That was CHR1S G33R of all people. Mr "I'm enshrining wierwille's stuff" himself had to address this because he came across it, and it was too blatant to leave alone. That was back in the early 1990s, with a 2-tape set on the subject (I used to joke that it was one tape per kingdom.) However, the subject really didn't take long to cover. Bullinger came up with it, and it was one of the incidents (there were others) where Bullinger came up with something and decided that was true without tying it to the Biblical usages. vpw, naturally, plagiarized him without checking out whether or not it was so (vpw was a LAZY plagiarist and often didn't understand what he plagiarized.) However, there's few Biblical usages of EITHER phrase, and they're used in parallel verses to make IDENTICAL points in the SYNOPTIC Gospels. There is no BIBLICAL justification for saying they're 2 different things. The only justification is "if God meant one thing he would have used one word, not two", but this isn't the only example where there's 2 words or phrases that mean the same thing. Language is NOT mathematically exact-which means communication CANNOT be mathematically exact. There's a beauty and a poetry in a living language that would evade a cold, calculated language.
I'll expound on the subject as soon as I have a reasonable amount of time, but really, it just takes the reading of the verses side-by-side and a willingness to let their overt meaning be the conclusion. In the meantime, someone linked to a discussion where it was already explained. Everyone except the vpw fanatics on that thread was able to follow without difficulty.
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chockfull
Just curious. Is this you pulling your own trailer here? Or you cut and pasting someone else's words into GSC's "trailer" ???
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