I read some of it, was more interested in who signed it, my goodness some heavy hitters in there, don't know all of them.
Here's something funny:
Quote
At the Dallas Advanced Class Special 2000, Rev. Rivenbark met with the attending Way Corps and confronted us regarding the situation with former ministry president Craig Martindale. She declared, “Those of you who were aware of what was going on should have yelled loud and long. It is your responsibility as Way Corps.”
It's obvious RFR knew about LCM's activities, her confrontation was a smoke screen to cover her posterior.
It's too painful to read the rest, I skimmed and didn't see the value in picking it apart.
Many folks here know my position, I have done my comparative religion research and found that what people call the KJV of the bible is like all the other versions rehashed Egyptian mythology. Argue with me all you want I don't care, you can't prove the truthfulness of a textbook by what the book says about itself, you must have outside sources and there are none. There is damning evidence within the KJV text that prove it was a fabrication of the Roman aristocracy.
Anyway Same old TWI if RFR was VPW they'd all still be kissing her foot, and no 7-page letter would have been written.
“Those of you who were aware of what was going on should have yelled loud and long. It is your responsibility as Way Corps.”
Oh that’s rich. I got kicked out for doing exactly this. I went to leadership about rampant adultery and was yelled at so bad I thought I was going to get hit.
Like I said on the other thread that referred to this letter, the delusion continues. For one thing, the "accuracy of The Word," is a mirage. If you don't believe that, try looking at any number of different versions of the Bible and see the differences. It's pretty obvious to anyone who reads carefully.
To me, this letter is evidence that the signers are so enmeshed in the ideology that VPW dreamed up, I doubt they will ever change. But I am proof people can extricate themselves and really change, so I can't predict what will happen with these folks, despite the decades they've invested.
I can tell you that in about 1998 or 1999, I contacted Do+tie Mo*nihan, who was at the time the Limb leader of Florida with her husband, Bob. I had found their phone number in the telephone book (ah the pre-internet days, at least for me). I was divorced, attending college, and working full time. I had been out of TWI for more than 10 years. The reason I called was to ask how her experience in graduate school for mental health counseling had helped her help people in TWI. I was considering going into that field. I also wanted to find out how she could justify continuing with TWI knowing of its extreme problems. At the time LCM was still president.
She met with me, but she had asked if she could bring another 3rd Corps grad, a TWI-ordained woman with her, someone I had known over the years, too. Understand, I had not seen either of these women since 1987 at HQ just before I escaped. I said sure, bring her. We met in a café in Winter Park, FL. During a friendly, but surreal conversation, at least for me, I asked Do+tie why she had stayed with TWI. She said she wanted stand with her ordained husband. She also said she was a simple believer. Let the research be done by others, she would believe it,. like Uncle Harry used to say.
It was then I told her flat out that TWI had never been a research ministry. I had been on the research team, which she knew because she was at HQ when I resigned from the team. I told her that "The Word" was whatever Wierwille said The Word was. Period. She looked shocked. She turned to her friend and they exchanged a glace I knew too well.
I'm sharing this because it is not news to at least one of the signers of this document (Do*tie) that The Word was of Wierwille's making, yet she and the others persist in their delusional beliefs about Wierwille and the Bible. Those two things combine to make a strong tonic. In my view, this letter is proof of mind control if there ever was proof.
Any ideology that tells you that your feelings do not matter, only The Word matters (which VP said all the time) is abusive. No one deserves to be abused. No one. People who were abused and continue to rationalize it, continue to name it something else, continue to dismiss it, will only continue to perpetuate it.
What I recommend is that we keep sharing our stories here. You'd be surprised who might be reading them. There is another way of life, a better way, than offered by The Way International.
We need to share our stories with our children and grandchildren. I can't tell you how many second generation Wayfers (or who they are) have contacted me about my story in Undertow, thanking me for shedding light on TWI, telling me it has helped heal them. If TWI was so great, then why do they need healing? Why do we need healing? Isn't it a pity that it's all come to this? That VPW's legacy is pain, confusion, and destruction?
My hope is that the generation my daughter is a part of will someday see these GSC posts and learn from them, look through this window into their parents' pasts and understand the seriousness of mind control and its collateral damage. Sadly, they are a part of it in some form or other, some more than others, but many are still in denial just like their parents.
Spread the word about helpful resources. I'm hoping to be part of a healing solution, which I think involves serious education. In my view, one of the best books for understanding all this is Bounded Choice by Janja Lalich.
To those interested, you can check out Lalich's book and others at your local public library. In 1987, libraries were the immediate source of my healing. Then came people I could trust who did not have any stake in my life other than to encourage things that served my best interest, not their ego.
Other than Undertow, Yuval Noah Harari's book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, provided tremendous insight on how our species (homo sapiens) goes about concocting elaborate fictions upon which to base our lives and cultures.
In MANY ways, Wierwille's fiction is just like Hubbard's.
Like Charlene said, " the "accuracy of The Word," is a mirage..."
ha. guess it should read. marked and avoided former 2nd Corps grad ...
Well, since former is an adjective, it would have to modify a noun, and the only one in the sequence is grad, so it's OK, I guess. (It would have had to have been formerly to modify marked and avoided.) Perhaps the addition of commas would have helped: "former, marked and avoided, 2nd Corps grad." Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled thread...
Okay. I read through this long-winded snoozer. I swear I have never seen a document that says less in more words. What is the problem? Rosalie took over the cult in the same fashion it was modeled by the former 2 presidents. As opposed to how she promised she would with distributing the balance of power. Totality of control. Totality of decision making power.
This reminds me of the challenges raising kids. They don't listen to what you say. But they model what you do 100% perfectly.
These leaders don't know to do anything different than start another cult. They never have had anything different modeled. All they have really experienced through modeling is how to run a cult, not how the true body of Christ interacts. As a result of that, I would like to comment on what I would consider the best of the splinters. CFFM. Started out to preserve "the truth" of the ministry but correct the practical error. I'm sure they still do that to a certain extent. But go read one of their publications now. You've got Tonya S in charge now because her dad who founded the splinter promised it to her as an inheritance basically. Now the language of the publications is changing slightly to emphasize the structure of the group, coded language is being invented - state contacts - regional contacts, etc. Do you think in another decade or two there is any way they will avoid the same "the purpose of the twig is to carry the heart of the BOD to each leaflet on the tree" type of logic???
In that document I love how Way leaders always over-inflate their own importance by talking about how we are going to lose the "Great Mystery" TM in practical application. First off, it's not rocket science that Christians should work together. In fact, most churches in your own city have done a better job of this than the Way for decades. They collaborate to feed the homeless, help the downtrodden, and pair up with other ministries doing things like working to end sex slavery with groups like Exodus Road. Actually, most churches in your own city - to be better than the Way, all they would need to do is not have their community neighbors hate them. The whole fact that this is such a revelation to people wanting to leave the Way is a testament to the destructive isolationist mindsets taught with the whole "household versus body" teachings. They are emerging with a slanted perspective on this here.
I mean, HELLO, you already lost the mystery a long time ago functionally. And in reality, if what you mean by the mystery is Christians collaborating and working together for a common cause, it was never there in the Way ministry to start with. The Way is a separatist cult, not looking to collaborate with the rest of the body of Christ, but to isolate believers off from the body of Christ. And its leaders know nothing different. When there is dissent, what do they do? Redefine what the word "household" means, and circle the troops. Now, "household" to the Way members means all of those people not associated with "Revival and Restoration".
In all actuality, if you want to get real about what "the household" is, it is whatever group of people that is currently in the BOD good favor.
So what are these people doing to fix it? Ensuring that they get marked and avoided, and leaving while trying to draw the most amount of people away with them. Are they going to be better than the cult? Sure they are. They have all the same great intentions of other splinters. I'm sure everything will be fine. After all, they have one thing down already. Being able to produce a bunch of hot air with little substance.
Well said Chockfull, they are all too s#*t scared to even step foot into other churches ( lest they be possessed) to LEARN how to do some/many things differn'tly ! It's bleatingly obvious that MORE works in other churches than those with way mentality. Other churches are ALIVE, PROSPERING, FLOURISHING...imagine that ( and that's without the 'accuracy' of the Word ) !!
Sorry chockful. Tonya S. is NOT John Shroyer's daughter. She's his daughter in law. So there's no "inheritance".
JayDee, please check CFFM references. Wayne Clapp stepped down from main clergy responsibilities there because John Shroyer promised the ministry to Tonya whether or not she was his daughter or daugther in law. Kevin G still works there part time but the main responsibility transferred to Tonya because she convinced Wayne of John Shroyer's promise.
JayDee, please check CFFM references. Wayne Clapp stepped down from main clergy responsibilities there because John Shroyer promised the ministry to Tonya whether or not she was his daughter or daugther in law. Kevin G still works there part time but the main responsibility transferred to Tonya because she convinced Wayne of John Shroyer's promise.
I am not mistaken here.
All I'm saying is that you said Tonia was John's daughter. That's all. She's not his daughter. And yes, several years before John died he told Tonia she would be the next president if she wanted the responsibility.
Wayne is a full time staff minister living in the Florida panhandle. Kevin Guigou is a full time staff minister living in Vandalia, OH. Tom Dill is also a staff minister but receives no salary.
Is it any wonder why God would choose a lowly sheep herder (considered by Egyptians, if not others, to be about the lowest profession of men) to be His voice to the world? How many priests after the lineage of Aaron were chosen? (Yeah... which of the next generation of youngsters do you suppose have thought any of these things through...)
And the mighty Moses... who thought himself to be the one to deliver the nation of Israel... but no, it was... go first and be a lowly shepherd for a lifetime (i.e., 40 years), and learn a little humility before taking on that roll.
Granted, lots of things have changed since back then. Other things? Maybe not so much. Things most affiliated with TWI never quite figured out.
Recommended Posts
Twinky
More and more of the same twaddle, mudslinging, and refusal to look at what's really going on. Sad.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
It may be a bit longer than what some people care to read.
I'll hit the high points.
"Dr. said." something, something, something.
"Snow on the gas pumps" something, something, something.
"Dr. also said." something, something, something.
God Bless
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Seth R.
I read some of it, was more interested in who signed it, my goodness some heavy hitters in there, don't know all of them.
Here's something funny:
It's obvious RFR knew about LCM's activities, her confrontation was a smoke screen to cover her posterior.
It's too painful to read the rest, I skimmed and didn't see the value in picking it apart.
Many folks here know my position, I have done my comparative religion research and found that what people call the KJV of the bible is like all the other versions rehashed Egyptian mythology. Argue with me all you want I don't care, you can't prove the truthfulness of a textbook by what the book says about itself, you must have outside sources and there are none. There is damning evidence within the KJV text that prove it was a fabrication of the Roman aristocracy.
Anyway Same old TWI if RFR was VPW they'd all still be kissing her foot, and no 7-page letter would have been written.
Seth
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Junior Corps Surviver
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outandabout
"We as fellow Way Corps ministers" - not for long.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
Like I said on the other thread that referred to this letter, the delusion continues. For one thing, the "accuracy of The Word," is a mirage. If you don't believe that, try looking at any number of different versions of the Bible and see the differences. It's pretty obvious to anyone who reads carefully.
To me, this letter is evidence that the signers are so enmeshed in the ideology that VPW dreamed up, I doubt they will ever change. But I am proof people can extricate themselves and really change, so I can't predict what will happen with these folks, despite the decades they've invested.
I can tell you that in about 1998 or 1999, I contacted Do+tie Mo*nihan, who was at the time the Limb leader of Florida with her husband, Bob. I had found their phone number in the telephone book (ah the pre-internet days, at least for me). I was divorced, attending college, and working full time. I had been out of TWI for more than 10 years. The reason I called was to ask how her experience in graduate school for mental health counseling had helped her help people in TWI. I was considering going into that field. I also wanted to find out how she could justify continuing with TWI knowing of its extreme problems. At the time LCM was still president.
She met with me, but she had asked if she could bring another 3rd Corps grad, a TWI-ordained woman with her, someone I had known over the years, too. Understand, I had not seen either of these women since 1987 at HQ just before I escaped. I said sure, bring her. We met in a café in Winter Park, FL. During a friendly, but surreal conversation, at least for me, I asked Do+tie why she had stayed with TWI. She said she wanted stand with her ordained husband. She also said she was a simple believer. Let the research be done by others, she would believe it,. like Uncle Harry used to say.
It was then I told her flat out that TWI had never been a research ministry. I had been on the research team, which she knew because she was at HQ when I resigned from the team. I told her that "The Word" was whatever Wierwille said The Word was. Period. She looked shocked. She turned to her friend and they exchanged a glace I knew too well.
I'm sharing this because it is not news to at least one of the signers of this document (Do*tie) that The Word was of Wierwille's making, yet she and the others persist in their delusional beliefs about Wierwille and the Bible. Those two things combine to make a strong tonic. In my view, this letter is proof of mind control if there ever was proof.
Any ideology that tells you that your feelings do not matter, only The Word matters (which VP said all the time) is abusive. No one deserves to be abused. No one. People who were abused and continue to rationalize it, continue to name it something else, continue to dismiss it, will only continue to perpetuate it.
What I recommend is that we keep sharing our stories here. You'd be surprised who might be reading them. There is another way of life, a better way, than offered by The Way International.
We need to share our stories with our children and grandchildren. I can't tell you how many second generation Wayfers (or who they are) have contacted me about my story in Undertow, thanking me for shedding light on TWI, telling me it has helped heal them. If TWI was so great, then why do they need healing? Why do we need healing? Isn't it a pity that it's all come to this? That VPW's legacy is pain, confusion, and destruction?
My hope is that the generation my daughter is a part of will someday see these GSC posts and learn from them, look through this window into their parents' pasts and understand the seriousness of mind control and its collateral damage. Sadly, they are a part of it in some form or other, some more than others, but many are still in denial just like their parents.
Spread the word about helpful resources. I'm hoping to be part of a healing solution, which I think involves serious education. In my view, one of the best books for understanding all this is Bounded Choice by Janja Lalich.
To those interested, you can check out Lalich's book and others at your local public library. In 1987, libraries were the immediate source of my healing. Then came people I could trust who did not have any stake in my life other than to encourage things that served my best interest, not their ego.
Cheers,
Charlene Lamy (former married name: Bishop) Edge
former marked and avoided 2nd Corps Grad
Edited by penworksLink to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
So...you're no longer marked and avoided?
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
ha. guess it should read. marked and avoided former 2nd Corps grad ...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Other than Undertow, Yuval Noah Harari's book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, provided tremendous insight on how our species (homo sapiens) goes about concocting elaborate fictions upon which to base our lives and cultures.
In MANY ways, Wierwille's fiction is just like Hubbard's.
Like Charlene said, " the "accuracy of The Word," is a mirage..."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
Well, since former is an adjective, it would have to modify a noun, and the only one in the sequence is grad, so it's OK, I guess. (It would have had to have been formerly to modify marked and avoided.) Perhaps the addition of commas would have helped: "former, marked and avoided, 2nd Corps grad." Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled thread...
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Okay. I read through this long-winded snoozer. I swear I have never seen a document that says less in more words. What is the problem? Rosalie took over the cult in the same fashion it was modeled by the former 2 presidents. As opposed to how she promised she would with distributing the balance of power. Totality of control. Totality of decision making power.
This reminds me of the challenges raising kids. They don't listen to what you say. But they model what you do 100% perfectly.
These leaders don't know to do anything different than start another cult. They never have had anything different modeled. All they have really experienced through modeling is how to run a cult, not how the true body of Christ interacts. As a result of that, I would like to comment on what I would consider the best of the splinters. CFFM. Started out to preserve "the truth" of the ministry but correct the practical error. I'm sure they still do that to a certain extent. But go read one of their publications now. You've got Tonya S in charge now because her dad who founded the splinter promised it to her as an inheritance basically. Now the language of the publications is changing slightly to emphasize the structure of the group, coded language is being invented - state contacts - regional contacts, etc. Do you think in another decade or two there is any way they will avoid the same "the purpose of the twig is to carry the heart of the BOD to each leaflet on the tree" type of logic???
In that document I love how Way leaders always over-inflate their own importance by talking about how we are going to lose the "Great Mystery" TM in practical application. First off, it's not rocket science that Christians should work together. In fact, most churches in your own city have done a better job of this than the Way for decades. They collaborate to feed the homeless, help the downtrodden, and pair up with other ministries doing things like working to end sex slavery with groups like Exodus Road. Actually, most churches in your own city - to be better than the Way, all they would need to do is not have their community neighbors hate them. The whole fact that this is such a revelation to people wanting to leave the Way is a testament to the destructive isolationist mindsets taught with the whole "household versus body" teachings. They are emerging with a slanted perspective on this here.
I mean, HELLO, you already lost the mystery a long time ago functionally. And in reality, if what you mean by the mystery is Christians collaborating and working together for a common cause, it was never there in the Way ministry to start with. The Way is a separatist cult, not looking to collaborate with the rest of the body of Christ, but to isolate believers off from the body of Christ. And its leaders know nothing different. When there is dissent, what do they do? Redefine what the word "household" means, and circle the troops. Now, "household" to the Way members means all of those people not associated with "Revival and Restoration".
In all actuality, if you want to get real about what "the household" is, it is whatever group of people that is currently in the BOD good favor.
So what are these people doing to fix it? Ensuring that they get marked and avoided, and leaving while trying to draw the most amount of people away with them. Are they going to be better than the cult? Sure they are. They have all the same great intentions of other splinters. I'm sure everything will be fine. After all, they have one thing down already. Being able to produce a bunch of hot air with little substance.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
great points Chockfull !!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JayDee
Sorry chockful. Tonya S. is NOT John Shroyer's daughter. She's his daughter in law. So there's no "inheritance".
Edited by JayDeeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
Well said Chockfull, they are all too s#*t scared to even step foot into other churches ( lest they be possessed) to LEARN how to do some/many things differn'tly ! It's bleatingly obvious that MORE works in other churches than those with way mentality. Other churches are ALIVE, PROSPERING, FLOURISHING...imagine that ( and that's without the 'accuracy' of the Word ) !!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
JayDee, please check CFFM references. Wayne Clapp stepped down from main clergy responsibilities there because John Shroyer promised the ministry to Tonya whether or not she was his daughter or daugther in law. Kevin G still works there part time but the main responsibility transferred to Tonya because she convinced Wayne of John Shroyer's promise.
I am not mistaken here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JayDee
All I'm saying is that you said Tonia was John's daughter. That's all. She's not his daughter. And yes, several years before John died he told Tonia she would be the next president if she wanted the responsibility.
Wayne is a full time staff minister living in the Florida panhandle. Kevin Guigou is a full time staff minister living in Vandalia, OH. Tom Dill is also a staff minister but receives no salary.
Edited by JayDeeLink to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
Is it any wonder why God would choose a lowly sheep herder (considered by Egyptians, if not others, to be about the lowest profession of men) to be His voice to the world? How many priests after the lineage of Aaron were chosen? (Yeah... which of the next generation of youngsters do you suppose have thought any of these things through...)
And the mighty Moses... who thought himself to be the one to deliver the nation of Israel... but no, it was... go first and be a lowly shepherd for a lifetime (i.e., 40 years), and learn a little humility before taking on that roll.
Granted, lots of things have changed since back then. Other things? Maybe not so much. Things most affiliated with TWI never quite figured out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.