This is more a suspicion than an observation, so take it with a grain of salt.
I think part of the problem in discussions about "critical thinking" is a lack of agreement on what "critical" means.
It sounds to me like one person is using it to mean "searching for and finding fault," while another is using it to mean "examining the argument and determining whether its logical bases are flawed.
Someone who is engaged in critical thinking is NOT looking to find flaws or fault. He's not being cynical. If you're not engaged in critical thinking, you can be suckered into anything. If you are engaged in cynical thinking, you won't believe the truth even when is is staring you in the face.
Anyway, just a thought.
A critical thought.
An interesting reflection, for sure. At least partly true/factual.
This is more a suspicion than an observation, so take it with a grain of salt.
I think part of the problem in discussions about "critical thinking" is a lack of agreement on what "critical" means.
It sounds to me like one person is using it to mean "searching for and finding fault," while another is using it to mean "examining the argument and determining whether its logical bases are flawed.
Someone who is engaged in critical thinking is NOT looking to find flaws or fault. He's not being cynical. If you're not engaged in critical thinking, you can be suckered into anything. If you are engaged in cynical thinking, you won't believe the truth even when is is staring you in the face.
Anyway, just a thought.
I think you've got an excellent point, Raf !
I've had some similar thoughts too - but haven't been able to articulate them...kudos to you !
I have a few sets of commentaries on my bookshelf but I always come back to these three favorites – concise, technical but brief with good cross-references
I don't have any of those. I've only got the ones that came with the e-Sword software. There are 15 in total, but I've found a few of them to be lacking. The Expositors Bible Commentary and Vincent’s Word Studies I find are the most worthwhile, at least for that particular topic about rightly dividing.
It's truly amazing the wealth of information and insight available once we leave the confines of TWI. Not that I was so confined, but they did do their job of propounding what THEY wanted us to look at.
Yae! That's nice work, T-Bone and TaxiDev. Thanks.
I read 2:15 now and I see it pointing towards how the truth is handled, and as the person being one who "works the ground", a cultivator.
To an extent it was self serving for VPW to overly emphasize 2:15 as meaning researching the Bible since that's what he said he did. He expounded on how he had spent hours and hours every day for years "working that Word", studying it, "rightly dividing it". Yet, in context the reader would never get that impression from chapter 2, without the impression of the English word "Study"...."spoudazo" is used 11 times in the N.T. and is never translated study anywhere else, or anything similar. In fact in use it deals more with what one does and how they do it, like being diligent or eager, or putting forth strong effort, "work". It's not sitting behind a desk racking up hours in books although that could certainly be part of how it could be understood in broader context.
Yet, without doing that and doing it with a high degree of honesty and integrity, the Bible can be very misunderstood. So it's really .... ironic. How this all shapes up. Life can be - just, weird and wildly whacky.
I for one appreciate what VPW did with PFAL and although I was very young first taking it I got it fairly quick. The 1967 version was at least the second formal collation of the teaching into a "class". It would have benefitted from a Ver 3.0, maybe even a 4.0, to straighten out a few sections and shorten it to it's leanest and greenest rendering. He never - ever- ever- supported the idea of continuing to work on PFAL to improve it - in the Way culture of that time it was sacrosanct. And as time went on and I got to know VPW more it always seemed clear to me that he was overly impressed with himself, or at least wanted everyone else to be. That said, most of the work he pulled together and taught has been very useful to me.
Edited by socks If one understands things in this manner, he should be able to hear about all ways and be more and more in accord with his own.
A bit off topic, but I'm beginning to wonder if the word "study" had an ancient meaning that gave a different nuance. We all know that AV [KJV] is written in 1600s English, and some words have changed their meaning somewhat.
A bit like the word "practise/practice." Now, we often mean it to learn a skill - say, piano playing. We practise scales, etc by doing that repetitively. But doctors, lawyers, architects - and musician - etc, "practise" as they work repetitively at the same sort of tasks, and they're very skilled already while they do those tasks..
Innerestin' - there's a bit of that in the contect of 2 Twinky, as the writer is warning Timothy about a couple people who were teaching and misleading people.
Here's a nice translation of that section of 2:
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,who have departed from the truth.
"handling the truth" correctly, or "making a straight way" with the Word of truth.....later in verse 25 it reads "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth"...
"Restoration and revival" - The phrase implies there's a former state that is being restored and revived, presumably a right one, a good one, one that should be present. It has to be a personal thing, a people thing that deals with individuals lives. Frankly I think it's going to have to be more than mirror image of what once was, and it's really just like the logic of Timothy's wisdom and in the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 9 - "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost as well as the skins. No, new wine is put into fresh wineskins." When Jesus was asked why His followers didn't observe fasting practices and traditions that were were advocated by the religious leaders of the day he used that example to illustrate that it was better to not try and put His teaching into the old practices that didn't serve or represent the same things he was teaching. Much like today we would not want to dress up or refresh old ideas based on doctrine that was was wrong and then try to achieve different results - it doesn't really make sense. (or you might say "....doing the same things over and over and expecting different results is insanity....")
Ephesians 4:11-16...."Ministries" are God given spiritual gifts from God to the Church, the body of Christ. They are given to people, for people. God doesn't give "Gift Farms" or "Gift Buildings" to the Church, he gives spiritual gifts to His people and the "work of the ministry" is to help support each other into a rich full relationship with God, in the "church of Christ". The realities of that are in us, in our lives, thoughts, feelings. The "invisible" things of God are then visible through our lives.
So every church pastor needs a sign in his office that says "it's God and the people, stupid!"....because everything in the Bible leads us to understand that all this claptrap we're so earnestly building to glorify God is going to turn to dust and end up in someone's else's landfill. What will go on forever is - "Love", the essence of the pneuma hagion that is the "us", reborn, anew, and rockin' that new body smell someday. The BRC won't be resurrected, that grass I cut so clean and neat to look good for the Sunday Night Services won't be restored. It's "LIFE", our lives, eternally bound together with God, now.
One thing I learned is that I needed to REMOVE and REPLACE some of the things that had accumulated and worked their way into my spiritual life, things I thought were necessary, things that were comfortable and familiar. In reality they were just baggage, dead weight. "Nice to have's". So perhaps there needs to be a REMOVE and REPLACE movement too.
Edited by socks Somebody's piece of pie was bigger than mine - I mean, not cut right. Enough.
A bit off topic, but I'm beginning to wonder if the word "study" had an ancient meaning that gave a different nuance. We all know that AV [KJV] is written in 1600s English, and some words have changed their meaning somewhat.
A bit like the word "practise/practice." Now, we often mean it to learn a skill - say, piano playing. We practise scales, etc by doing that repetitively. But doctors, lawyers, architects - and musician - etc, "practise" as they work repetitively at the same sort of tasks, and they're very skilled already while they do those tasks..
The word "study" is a poor translation of the word. The more modern translations don't shy away from translating it either as "be diligent" or "do your best" or "make every effort". "Spoude" doesn't have anything to do with "studying." Someone inferred that from the verse, and altered the verb in the verse to say that.
Innerestin' - there's a bit of that in the contect of 2 Twinky, as the writer is warning Timothy about a couple people who were teaching and misleading people.
Here's a nice translation of that section of 2:
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,who have departed from the truth.
"handling the truth" correctly, or "making a straight way" with the Word of truth.....later in verse 25 it reads "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth"...
"Restoration and revival" - The phrase implies there's a former state that is being restored and revived, presumably a right one, a good one, one that should be present. It has to be a personal thing, a people thing that deals with individuals lives. Frankly I think it's going to have to be more than mirror image of what once was, and it's really just like the logic of Timothy's wisdom and in the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 9 - "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost as well as the skins. No, new wine is put into fresh wineskins." When Jesus was asked why His followers didn't observe fasting practices and traditions that were were advocated by the religious leaders of the day he used that example to illustrate that it was better to not try and put His teaching into the old practices that didn't serve or represent the same things he was teaching. Much like today we would not want to dress up or refresh old ideas based on doctrine that was was wrong and then try to achieve different results - it doesn't really make sense. (or you might say "....doing the same things over and over and expecting different results is insanity....")
Ephesians 4:11-16...."Ministries" are God given spiritual gifts from God to the Church, the body of Christ. They are given to people, for people. God doesn't give "Gift Farms" or "Gift Buildings" to the Church, he gives spiritual gifts to His people and the "work of the ministry" is to help support each other into a rich full relationship with God, in the "church of Christ". The realities of that are in us, in our lives, thoughts, feelings. The "invisible" things of God are then visible through our lives.
So every church pastor needs a sign in his office that says "it's God and the people, stupid!"....because everything in the Bible leads us to understand that all this claptrap we're so earnestly building to glorify God is going to turn to dust and end up in someone's else's landfill. What will go on forever is - "Love", the essence of the pneuma hagion that is the "us", reborn, anew, and rockin' that new body smell someday. The BRC won't be resurrected, that grass I cut so clean and neat to look good for the Sunday Night Services won't be restored. It's "LIFE", our lives, eternally bound together with God, now.
One thing I learned is that I needed to REMOVE and REPLACE some of the things that had accumulated and worked their way into my spiritual life, things I thought were necessary, things that were comfortable and familiar. In reality they were just baggage, dead weight. "Nice to have's". So perhaps there needs to be a REMOVE and REPLACE movement too.
With the emphasis on how freaking perfect vpw's system allegedly was, nobody's eager to REMOVE or REPLACE it. To keep the money moving and the people in their seats, they want to claim to just "revive" and "restore" the "classic" twi- since selective memory makes that a paradise that in few ways resembles the actual experience.
With the emphasis on how freaking perfect vpw's system allegedly was, nobody's eager to REMOVE or REPLACE it. To keep the money moving and the people in their seats, they want to claim to just "revive" and "restore" the "classic" twi- since selective memory makes that a paradise that in few ways resembles the actual experience.
So perhaps there needs to be a REMOVE and REPLACE movement too.
I wouldn't say, "too", I would say "only". Unless we're trying to revive and restore the 1st century church, there's nothing since then that's worth reviving and restoring. Everything after that has been a construction of man, and I'm sure we all know what that means.
With the emphasis on how freaking perfect vpw's system allegedly was, nobody's eager to REMOVE or REPLACE it. To keep the money moving and the people in their seats, they want to claim to just "revive" and "restore" the "classic" twi- since selective memory makes that a paradise that in few ways resembles the actual experience.
Not for everyone, WW. But yeah, I get what your'e saying I think.
Your "selective memory" may parse the experience one way, but someone else, particularly someone who actually had an experience with VPW's "system" and it's "perfect" status as you called it, or otherwise will have theirs. In fact I think a person's actual experience is going to be primarily for them to evaluate. They may be wrong or right by any number of values including yours and my opinion and informed evaluation - but it's theirs to have. And I would add in my own sphere of contacts I would say there are people who see their past experience differently than I do, and who in fact see certain things more favorably and positive than I do, or would and vice versa. I've come to understand through extensive conversations with them - as friends and not to debate or condemn or even arbitrarily correct anything but just to share the loving friendship we have - that they do think differently than I do about certain things. I offer my perspective and where I think it's a matter of "handling the Word of truth" I do my best to help where I can but it's up to them to consider and decide. Interestingly these are not all cut and dry matters looking at it within people's lives and not as an academic reconstruction of a past I have only heard about.
And to be clear, I have NO skin in this game, theirs or any other, other than to put forth my own ideas and information. I am still not a member of any Way or ex-Way ministries, fellowships, groups, churches or organizations, formally or ex officio. I'm still me. And I can promise you that barring a hand written granite card from God showing up on a Grand Canyon wall addressed to me saying do otherwise, I have no intention of joining in anyone's effort to restore, revive or restuff and pickle anything to do with The Way. I'm just fine, thankya.
I do know some of these people being named and have varying interests in their well being but overall I'd say I have an interest for anyone and everyone to be well and learn and enjoy the life God has for them.
Edited by socks If only we had the time to really get into that.
I wouldn't say, "too", I would say "only". Unless we're trying to revive and restore the 1st century church, there's nothing since then that's worth reviving and restoring. Everything after that has been a construction of man, and I'm sure we all know what that means.
True. But I am not for reviving and restoring anything from the past, to be honest. I made a mostly rhetorical statement with that, since I think we can guess that as long as some of these peeps have an audience, an interest and a paycheck be it dollars or just ego-boosting praise and worship, they're going to go their own way. But yeah, remove and replace is the ideal way to go.
My view of the Gospels, Acts and Epistles are that while they give me a view of what happened, and why and a strong degree of "what God wants us to know" in terms of doctrine and practice I don't think they should be viewed as the one-and-only way in which to do things, to live. They don't really provide a finished template from which a final product will be produced, rather they give what I'd call a "functional guide" as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body, we have attributes of say, a fountain or a river - everyone sees the water and hears the sound of the water but it's not the same water every minute. The whole of the expanse of what is that river or fountain is much larger than the single drops I see at one time.
For generations the word "Church" has been synonymous with "Building". The Church has for many been first a place where a leader of some sort presides and the people gather and attend to listen and participate in some form of ritualized activity. Yet we don't see that happening in the first few generations of Christians and there's nothing written indicating that's the desired state for the Christians in the records we see generated by Luke, Paul, Peter, and other writers and scribes of that early era.
So we get from the Bible a kind of "how to do all things through Christ, how to be abased and how to abound", in both individual life as well as group church life. The clearest message of the epistles is that there is no need for anything extraneous beyond the people themselves and their ability to come together and meet and interact as a "body" of Christ, with each person an individual part contributing to the whole, with support and assistance from God through Christ to each member. A "diversity" of ways and means, all through that "selfsame spirit".
So - and this is like preaching to the choir I suppose - but by building an extensive library of copy cat rituals, traditions and requirements that essentially act as governance for individual and group behavior we, they, whoever, severely restrict their own ability to really "be" the body of Christ. Any artifice or facade, any set of authorization codes for specialized access, any levels of participation, titles, recognition and reward that restricts the free movement of all the parts will reduce and even prevent growth and function. Timothy and Titus give us a well rounded view of how the church should "run" itself, and there aren't any peripherals.
Anyway - I find churches pretty boring and dull if all they do is meet/greet/sit down/shut up/listen/and go home, and they'll become germ-farms for all manner of ungodly viruses. Today more and more churches diversify and work "across the aisle" with other churches who may do different things. And they should - if we're all Christian in essence we're all related and have a godly right to our own diversity as well as a godly responsibility to share with others.
They don't really provide a finished template from which a final product will be produced, rather they give what I'd call a "functional guide" as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism.
Exactly. And that is what I meant by bringing that structure back - a free, open structure, where Jesus Christ is the head and ALL THE REST of us are the body.
6 hours ago, socks said:
Any artifice or facade, any set of authorization codes for specialized access, any levels of participation, titles, recognition and reward that restricts the free movement of all the parts will reduce and even prevent growth and function.
Absolutely. Actually, your entire description fits perfectly, but this section really hit a chord. It can be helpful for someone who is knowledgeable on a particular topic to share on that topic. But I get more out of a group study session, where each of us contributes what we do understand, and also asks questions to provoke more study, deeper study, and then sharing with each other the results of that study.
Paul shared his incredible understanding with many, but he act like their boss - he knew he wasn't their boss. That's iron sharpening iron, which apparently is what God wants us ALL to do.
I was told in my fellowship that we should stand when an ordained minister enters the room, so I asked why? Doesn't it say specifically in the bible not to do stuff like that? Not to give greater honor because of a title? They had lost what really mattered, living the Love of God.
6 hours ago, socks said:
The Church has for many been first a place where a leader of some sort presides and the people gather and attend to listen and participate in some form of ritualized activity.
This is precisely what I saw TWI had become. It was boring. And while some of the teachers locally to me were pretty good, it was still so pathetically rigid in its format. The life was drained out, it was just business as usual.
It's not talking about academic study, it's talking about accurately "handling" God's revealed Word, of how it's lived and taught - not a mechanical process of efforts to set it straight, separate it or literally "divide" it.
With all the emphasis and effort that has put into expounding 2Tim. 2:15, one might think there's little left to be understood there. Yet, frankly speaking, my view of it has changed rather radically from what it once was years ago, when I was so want to "dig into" the Greek, or Hebrew, or Aramaic... searching for a much deeper and/or more significant truth in scripture.
In part, because I've seen some of the error that can (and so often does) result from an overly (and overtly) zealousness to focus on "the text" of what is written, and the elevation of it above what might be described as a much more "simplistic" understanding resulting from a more careful consideration of who it was (or is) written to, and why it may have been written.
Personally, I think this verse in 2 Timothy relates very closely to what is written in Philippians 1:9,10. But, perhaps that would make more sense to some of you if the word "excellent" in verse 10 were translated (more accurately) as "different." Because many things that Paul spoke of and wrote about were, in fact, quite different from what was coming out of the church that was in Jerusalem. Maybe then this "right dividing" or separating that is spoken of of 2 Timothy makes plenty good sense, given Paul's prayer in Philippians for their love to abound yet more and more... which appears to be a prerequisite for approving things that are "different" (I.e., needing separation.)
True. But I am not for reviving and restoring anything from the past, to be honest. I made a mostly rhetorical statement with that, since I think we can guess that as long as some of these peeps have an audience, an interest and a paycheck be it dollars or just ego-boosting praise and worship, they're going to go their own way. But yeah, remove and replace is the ideal way to go.
My view of the Gospels, Acts and Epistles are that while they give me a view of what happened, and why and a strong degree of "what God wants us to know" in terms of doctrine and practice I don't think they should be viewed as the one-and-only way in which to do things, to live. They don't really provide a finished template from which a final product will be produced, rather they give what I'd call a "functional guide" as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body, we have attributes of say, a fountain or a river - everyone sees the water and hears the sound of the water but it's not the same water every minute. The whole of the expanse of what is that river or fountain is much larger than the single drops I see at one time. ..(SNIP)
Wow, Socks – you’ve really got me thinking there!
Wasn’t it something along the lines of a transition out of necessity for the early Christians to start meeting in the homes – since the Gospel message wasn’t that welcome in the synagogues… …but as you said seeing something like what we read about in Acts as just one facet of a “functional guide as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body…” so maybe there’s some formalism…or traditionalism in the thinking of some folks who have an excessive adherence to doing some things exactly as they did in the Bible. I guess it looks biblical.
…different times, different cultures…and a lot more technology…the Internet, cell-phones, blogs, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, books, magazines, "planes, trains and automobiles" etc. help folks connect, focus, organize, meet, stay informed and not just the social aspect but even scripture/doctrine/research-wise…we’re light-years ahead of the printing press – online Bibles, commentaries, research tools, etc...that reminds me - I heard of a drive-thru church on the radio...I'm not kidding...that's just another amazing modern marvel .
a few years ago there was a discussion on one thread where I mentioned something along the lines of Grease Spot being my church. In some ways it still is…granted, it’s a pretty diverse congregation with no special creed... I think there’s an ongoing healing service in the About the Way forum…well, it’s great therapy for me anyway…and I kinda see the Doctrinal forum as a multi-faith * council where Grease Spotters come together to exchange ideas and information and to have a dialog about biblical/spiritual/religious/philosophical and sometimes social issues. (* by “multi-faith” in this context I simply mean "faith" is whatever your beliefs are - I just used "faith" cuz it sounds churchy ).
but - - - - even though the times and cultures may be different – I think you’ll still find the same basic concerns are present: family, safety & security, livelihood, social needs, the human condition…purpose and meaning in life...so I think the guts of your religion, philosophy...or whatever it is that you believe has the "timeless answers" - should be able to adapt to any given environment and conditions to meet those needs.
Yikes ! Can I ramble or what?!?! Sorry about that…anyway bringing it back to some thoughts I’ve had pertinent to this thread: who wants to revive and restore things to “the good old days”...or however you fondly remember things...Not me…honestly, everyone has had different experiences…I prefer to pick and choose what to hold on to and what new direction or directions to explore...as far as the R and R folks go - - I guess I am alittle very leery or cynical that a bunch of “old timers” who have no retirement benefits from TWI now want to start their own group purely for altruistic reasons…getting back to the good old days or whatever it is they're trying to resuscitate …yeah – right – that’s some noble-sounding bull$hit if you ask me.
Edited by T-Bone Thyme travel: a flatbed landscaping truck hauling a buttload of aromatic perennial evergreen herbs
Wasn’t it something along the lines of a transition out of necessity for the early Christians to start meeting in the homes – since the Gospel message wasn’t that welcome in the synagogues… …but as you said seeing something like what we read about in Acts as just one facet of a “functional guide as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body…” so maybe there’s some formalism…or traditionalism in the thinking of some folks who have an excessive adherence to doing some things exactly as they did in the Bible. I guess it looks biblical.
…different times, different cultures…and a lot more technology…the Internet, cell-phones, blogs, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, books, magazines, "planes, trains and automobiles" etc. help folks connect, focus, organize, meet, stay informed and not just the social aspect but even scripture/doctrine/research-wise…we’re light-years ahead of the printing press – online Bibles, commentaries, research tools, etc...that reminds me - I heard of a drive-thru church on the radio...I'm not kidding...that's just another amazing modern marvel .
a few years ago there was a discussion on one thread where I mentioned something along the lines of Grease Spot being my church. In some ways it still is…granted, it’s a pretty diverse congregation with no special creed... I think there’s an ongoing healing service in the About the Way forum…well, it’s great therapy for me anyway…and I kinda see the Doctrinal forum as a multi-faith * council where Grease Spotters come together to exchange ideas and information and to have a dialog about biblical/spiritual/religious/philosophical and sometimes social issues. (* by “multi-faith” in this context I simply mean "faith" is whatever your beliefs are - I just used "faith" cuz it sounds churchy ).
but - - - - even though the times and cultures may be different – I think you’ll still find the same basic concerns are present: family, safety & security, livelihood, social needs, the human condition…purpose and meaning in life...so I think the guts of your religion, philosophy...or whatever it is that you believe has the "timeless answers" - should be able to adapt to any given environment and conditions to meet those needs.
Yikes ! Can I ramble or what?!?! Sorry about that…anyway bringing it back to some thoughts I’ve had pertinent to this thread: who wants to revive and restore things to “the good old days”...or however you fondly remember things...Not me…honestly, everyone has had different experiences…I prefer to pick and choose what to hold on to and what new direction or directions to explore...as far as the R and R folks go - - I guess I am alittle very leery or cynical that a bunch of “old timers” who have no retirement benefits from TWI now want to start their own group purely for altruistic reasons…getting back to the good old days or whatever it is they're trying to resuscitate …yeah – right – that’s some noble-sounding bull$hit if you ask me.
You're a ramblin' TBone, but no more than me! Great stuff, I'll be digesting for awhile.
Exactly. And that is what I meant be bringing that structure back - a free, open structure, where Jesus Christ is the head and ALL THE REST of us are the body.
Absolutely. Actually, your entire description fits perfectly, but this section really hit a chord. It can be helpful for someone who is knowledgeable on a particular topic to share on that topic. But I get more out of a group study session, where each of us contributes what we do understand, and also asks questions to provoke more study, deeper study, and then sharing with each other the results of that study.
Paul shared his incredible understanding with many, but he act like their boss - he knew he wasn't their boss. That's iron sharpening iron, which apparently is what God wants us ALL to do.
I was told in my fellowship that we should stand when an ordained minister enters the room, so I asked why? Doesn't it say specifically in the bible not to do stuff like that? Not to give greater honor because of a title? They had lost what really mattered, living the Love of God.
This is precisely what I saw TWI had become. It was boring. And while some of the teachers locally to me were pretty good, it was still so pathetically rigid in its format. The life was drained out, it was just business as usual.
Anyway, socks, I think you nailed it.
Thanks.
The stand-for-the-boss routines used in the Way were, are heinous. You'd think if they read Corinthians and Ephesians they'd get the idea that when the "believers" get together to hang out, pray, fellowship or eat it should be the ONE and possibly last place on earth where you can chill and be yourself and not have to lose a good seat and the big piece of chicken to some "elder" everyone feels the need to impress since they took their precious time to come and eat your food, drink your coffee and talk to you about something you may have already heard. Many times. And better. So I agree with that.
Someone told me once they'd drive hours to hear Lynn teach - "He's SO FUNNY".
He's not that funny. You gotta be pretty lonely, desperate or just plain sad to think that. I think that's why he mugs it up so much - he uses physical tips and triggers to signal when he's trying to be funny. Somewhere between the standing up for His Reverendship and the auto-laughter triggers there's a sore butt in a chair, that much I know. But - it's better than robbing a 7-11 I guess.
Martin Luther's objections to Roman Catholic doctrine and practice led his actions. RC doctrine was a hybrid of the Bible's "saved by faith" or as Paul put it another doctrine that wasn't really another doctrine but a completely different animal of it's own kind. Luther also objected then of course to them selling Indulgences, certificates that gave remission of sins after one died. Now THAT'S a scam worthy of some effort. If you're going to absolutely degrade anything resembling even the slightest bit of good, then go all in - put one's eternal future on it and sell that puppy. Sit back and watch it roll in. Pretty nifty. If you're THE DEVIL.
Anyway, Luther wasn't really trying to demolish or destroy the Catholic Church, he wanted to clean it up, purge it. He also had some ideas that would become popular later, like getting rid of the Jews in Germany. Anyway...
Restoring and reviving is only important to people's lives. I can say that easily because whatever I lost through my dis association with the Way has been far outweighed by not having to be entangled with their bullsh it. The only thing I care about still today are the people involved, but if they're happy stewing and simmering there I can't do anything about that. Frankly I've never made it a full time job to "save" them from themselves. Cuz they don' a wanna change, so they's a not a gonna change, no matta wattah I do.
Luther never got the RC's to change. Well, maybe a teeny bit sort of over years but not in any real substantive way that they would recognize. More recently I think it was Pope Benedict who tried to establish some ecumenical platform for RC's accepting a couple tenets of Protestant theology buuuuuut I think that's just window dressing on the ol' RC Childcare Store front. I mean, they're church face.
Anyway - that's why I don't worry about what the next wave of geezers leaving the Way is doing. The only advice I would give them is they aren't young anymore, so there's not a lot of years to burn doing something you don't really want to do. So get busy livin' and get on with it.
I cannot speak for the whole group, but I know at least one of the people in the panel, and I don't see greed/power or monetary gain being the motivation here.
I think it is more of a mid-life crisis type of situation, knowing they have invested the better part of their lives towards an organization that has given them nothing back. Yes, they may have been previously aware of issues, but you don't question leadership in the Way (and you certainly don't discuss them) you just follow orders.
I think we all can relate to knowing about sites like waydale in the 2000s when still with the Way, and and not wanting to know what was on there. It has always been an us vs. them mentality.
I think they have just had enough of the BS. I agree they are holding their tongue on many things but it will be interesting to see how it plays out. If they had truly fresh thinking and research they would have a much higher chance of success than trying to go back to a baseline of VPW's plagerized material as their foundation. The rabbit hole just goes way too deep, and this is why I left years ago.
I have been going to way fellowships since 1980. Those people in that panel are some of the false teachers mentioned in Peter. I know a guy that was F'd over by one of them. Good riddance !
When we left in 1989, the majority of NYers had a simple position:
Changing the presidency of TWI would no longer be considered a solution because anyone who replaced LCM from within at that point would have been someone who bent the knee -- someone who chose LCM over JC.
It's an interesting take that allowed us to exclude from serious consideration anyone who did not leave at the same time we did (Dubofsky, Lynn, Schoenheit, Graeser and others all left too soon. Everyone else, too late.
My observation is that this temporary isolationism softened as the years passed. But at the time, it was an interesting dynamic
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi All! Well....I actually finished forcing myself to listen to those lying, sanctimonious, self-deluded fools. I could only take it in 8-10 minute segments, once a day. I felt as if I was watchi
Watered Garden
I'm not even going to bother listening/watching to the R&R presentations you all are talking about. I remember when we got the boot writing a four-page letter explaining our situation to the Rever
penguin2
I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse. I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I
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Rocky
A critical thought.
An interesting reflection, for sure. At least partly true/factual.
The fact is, we ALL (even setting aside having been sucked into TWI) are subject to and have been conned.
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T-Bone
I think you've got an excellent point, Raf !
I've had some similar thoughts too - but haven't been able to articulate them...kudos to you !
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Taxidev
I don't have any of those. I've only got the ones that came with the e-Sword software. There are 15 in total, but I've found a few of them to be lacking. The Expositors Bible Commentary and Vincent’s Word Studies I find are the most worthwhile, at least for that particular topic about rightly dividing.
It's truly amazing the wealth of information and insight available once we leave the confines of TWI. Not that I was so confined, but they did do their job of propounding what THEY wanted us to look at.
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socks
Yae! That's nice work, T-Bone and TaxiDev. Thanks.
I read 2:15 now and I see it pointing towards how the truth is handled, and as the person being one who "works the ground", a cultivator.
To an extent it was self serving for VPW to overly emphasize 2:15 as meaning researching the Bible since that's what he said he did. He expounded on how he had spent hours and hours every day for years "working that Word", studying it, "rightly dividing it". Yet, in context the reader would never get that impression from chapter 2, without the impression of the English word "Study"...."spoudazo" is used 11 times in the N.T. and is never translated study anywhere else, or anything similar. In fact in use it deals more with what one does and how they do it, like being diligent or eager, or putting forth strong effort, "work". It's not sitting behind a desk racking up hours in books although that could certainly be part of how it could be understood in broader context.
Yet, without doing that and doing it with a high degree of honesty and integrity, the Bible can be very misunderstood. So it's really .... ironic. How this all shapes up. Life can be - just, weird and wildly whacky.
I for one appreciate what VPW did with PFAL and although I was very young first taking it I got it fairly quick. The 1967 version was at least the second formal collation of the teaching into a "class". It would have benefitted from a Ver 3.0, maybe even a 4.0, to straighten out a few sections and shorten it to it's leanest and greenest rendering. He never - ever- ever- supported the idea of continuing to work on PFAL to improve it - in the Way culture of that time it was sacrosanct. And as time went on and I got to know VPW more it always seemed clear to me that he was overly impressed with himself, or at least wanted everyone else to be. That said, most of the work he pulled together and taught has been very useful to me.
Edited by socksIf one understands things in this manner, he should be able to hear about all ways and be more and more in accord with his own.
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Twinky
A bit off topic, but I'm beginning to wonder if the word "study" had an ancient meaning that gave a different nuance. We all know that AV [KJV] is written in 1600s English, and some words have changed their meaning somewhat.
A bit like the word "practise/practice." Now, we often mean it to learn a skill - say, piano playing. We practise scales, etc by doing that repetitively. But doctors, lawyers, architects - and musician - etc, "practise" as they work repetitively at the same sort of tasks, and they're very skilled already while they do those tasks..
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socks
Innerestin' - there's a bit of that in the contect of 2 Twinky, as the writer is warning Timothy about a couple people who were teaching and misleading people.
Here's a nice translation of that section of 2:
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth.
"handling the truth" correctly, or "making a straight way" with the Word of truth.....later in verse 25 it reads "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth"...
"Restoration and revival" - The phrase implies there's a former state that is being restored and revived, presumably a right one, a good one, one that should be present. It has to be a personal thing, a people thing that deals with individuals lives. Frankly I think it's going to have to be more than mirror image of what once was, and it's really just like the logic of Timothy's wisdom and in the words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 9 - "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost as well as the skins. No, new wine is put into fresh wineskins." When Jesus was asked why His followers didn't observe fasting practices and traditions that were were advocated by the religious leaders of the day he used that example to illustrate that it was better to not try and put His teaching into the old practices that didn't serve or represent the same things he was teaching. Much like today we would not want to dress up or refresh old ideas based on doctrine that was was wrong and then try to achieve different results - it doesn't really make sense. (or you might say "....doing the same things over and over and expecting different results is insanity....")
Ephesians 4:11-16...."Ministries" are God given spiritual gifts from God to the Church, the body of Christ. They are given to people, for people. God doesn't give "Gift Farms" or "Gift Buildings" to the Church, he gives spiritual gifts to His people and the "work of the ministry" is to help support each other into a rich full relationship with God, in the "church of Christ". The realities of that are in us, in our lives, thoughts, feelings. The "invisible" things of God are then visible through our lives.
Edited by socksSo every church pastor needs a sign in his office that says "it's God and the people, stupid!"....because everything in the Bible leads us to understand that all this claptrap we're so earnestly building to glorify God is going to turn to dust and end up in someone's else's landfill. What will go on forever is - "Love", the essence of the pneuma hagion that is the "us", reborn, anew, and rockin' that new body smell someday. The BRC won't be resurrected, that grass I cut so clean and neat to look good for the Sunday Night Services won't be restored. It's "LIFE", our lives, eternally bound together with God, now.
One thing I learned is that I needed to REMOVE and REPLACE some of the things that had accumulated and worked their way into my spiritual life, things I thought were necessary, things that were comfortable and familiar. In reality they were just baggage, dead weight. "Nice to have's". So perhaps there needs to be a REMOVE and REPLACE movement too.
Somebody's piece of pie was bigger than mine - I mean, not cut right. Enough.
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WordWolf
The word "study" is a poor translation of the word. The more modern translations don't shy away from translating it either as "be diligent" or "do your best" or "make every effort". "Spoude" doesn't have anything to do with "studying." Someone inferred that from the verse, and altered the verb in the verse to say that.
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WordWolf
With the emphasis on how freaking perfect vpw's system allegedly was, nobody's eager to REMOVE or REPLACE it. To keep the money moving and the people in their seats, they want to claim to just "revive" and "restore" the "classic" twi- since selective memory makes that a paradise that in few ways resembles the actual experience.
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socks
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Taxidev
I wouldn't say, "too", I would say "only". Unless we're trying to revive and restore the 1st century church, there's nothing since then that's worth reviving and restoring. Everything after that has been a construction of man, and I'm sure we all know what that means.
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T-Bone
Socks and WordWolf, true that!
after this thread I might need some R and R ...rest and relaxation.
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socks
Not for everyone, WW. But yeah, I get what your'e saying I think.
Your "selective memory" may parse the experience one way, but someone else, particularly someone who actually had an experience with VPW's "system" and it's "perfect" status as you called it, or otherwise will have theirs. In fact I think a person's actual experience is going to be primarily for them to evaluate. They may be wrong or right by any number of values including yours and my opinion and informed evaluation - but it's theirs to have. And I would add in my own sphere of contacts I would say there are people who see their past experience differently than I do, and who in fact see certain things more favorably and positive than I do, or would and vice versa. I've come to understand through extensive conversations with them - as friends and not to debate or condemn or even arbitrarily correct anything but just to share the loving friendship we have - that they do think differently than I do about certain things. I offer my perspective and where I think it's a matter of "handling the Word of truth" I do my best to help where I can but it's up to them to consider and decide. Interestingly these are not all cut and dry matters looking at it within people's lives and not as an academic reconstruction of a past I have only heard about.
And to be clear, I have NO skin in this game, theirs or any other, other than to put forth my own ideas and information. I am still not a member of any Way or ex-Way ministries, fellowships, groups, churches or organizations, formally or ex officio. I'm still me. And I can promise you that barring a hand written granite card from God showing up on a Grand Canyon wall addressed to me saying do otherwise, I have no intention of joining in anyone's effort to restore, revive or restuff and pickle anything to do with The Way. I'm just fine, thankya.
I do know some of these people being named and have varying interests in their well being but overall I'd say I have an interest for anyone and everyone to be well and learn and enjoy the life God has for them.
Edited by socksIf only we had the time to really get into that.
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socks
True. But I am not for reviving and restoring anything from the past, to be honest. I made a mostly rhetorical statement with that, since I think we can guess that as long as some of these peeps have an audience, an interest and a paycheck be it dollars or just ego-boosting praise and worship, they're going to go their own way. But yeah, remove and replace is the ideal way to go.
My view of the Gospels, Acts and Epistles are that while they give me a view of what happened, and why and a strong degree of "what God wants us to know" in terms of doctrine and practice I don't think they should be viewed as the one-and-only way in which to do things, to live. They don't really provide a finished template from which a final product will be produced, rather they give what I'd call a "functional guide" as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body, we have attributes of say, a fountain or a river - everyone sees the water and hears the sound of the water but it's not the same water every minute. The whole of the expanse of what is that river or fountain is much larger than the single drops I see at one time.
For generations the word "Church" has been synonymous with "Building". The Church has for many been first a place where a leader of some sort presides and the people gather and attend to listen and participate in some form of ritualized activity. Yet we don't see that happening in the first few generations of Christians and there's nothing written indicating that's the desired state for the Christians in the records we see generated by Luke, Paul, Peter, and other writers and scribes of that early era.
So we get from the Bible a kind of "how to do all things through Christ, how to be abased and how to abound", in both individual life as well as group church life. The clearest message of the epistles is that there is no need for anything extraneous beyond the people themselves and their ability to come together and meet and interact as a "body" of Christ, with each person an individual part contributing to the whole, with support and assistance from God through Christ to each member. A "diversity" of ways and means, all through that "selfsame spirit".
So - and this is like preaching to the choir I suppose - but by building an extensive library of copy cat rituals, traditions and requirements that essentially act as governance for individual and group behavior we, they, whoever, severely restrict their own ability to really "be" the body of Christ. Any artifice or facade, any set of authorization codes for specialized access, any levels of participation, titles, recognition and reward that restricts the free movement of all the parts will reduce and even prevent growth and function. Timothy and Titus give us a well rounded view of how the church should "run" itself, and there aren't any peripherals.
Anyway - I find churches pretty boring and dull if all they do is meet/greet/sit down/shut up/listen/and go home, and they'll become germ-farms for all manner of ungodly viruses. Today more and more churches diversify and work "across the aisle" with other churches who may do different things. And they should - if we're all Christian in essence we're all related and have a godly right to our own diversity as well as a godly responsibility to share with others.
What say ye?
Edited by socksIf I don't, who will?
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Taxidev
Exactly. And that is what I meant by bringing that structure back - a free, open structure, where Jesus Christ is the head and ALL THE REST of us are the body.
Absolutely. Actually, your entire description fits perfectly, but this section really hit a chord. It can be helpful for someone who is knowledgeable on a particular topic to share on that topic. But I get more out of a group study session, where each of us contributes what we do understand, and also asks questions to provoke more study, deeper study, and then sharing with each other the results of that study.
Paul shared his incredible understanding with many, but he act like their boss - he knew he wasn't their boss. That's iron sharpening iron, which apparently is what God wants us ALL to do.
I was told in my fellowship that we should stand when an ordained minister enters the room, so I asked why? Doesn't it say specifically in the bible not to do stuff like that? Not to give greater honor because of a title? They had lost what really mattered, living the Love of God.
This is precisely what I saw TWI had become. It was boring. And while some of the teachers locally to me were pretty good, it was still so pathetically rigid in its format. The life was drained out, it was just business as usual.
Anyway, socks, I think you nailed it.
Edited by Taxidevspelling
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TLC
With all the emphasis and effort that has put into expounding 2Tim. 2:15, one might think there's little left to be understood there. Yet, frankly speaking, my view of it has changed rather radically from what it once was years ago, when I was so want to "dig into" the Greek, or Hebrew, or Aramaic... searching for a much deeper and/or more significant truth in scripture.
In part, because I've seen some of the error that can (and so often does) result from an overly (and overtly) zealousness to focus on "the text" of what is written, and the elevation of it above what might be described as a much more "simplistic" understanding resulting from a more careful consideration of who it was (or is) written to, and why it may have been written.
Personally, I think this verse in 2 Timothy relates very closely to what is written in Philippians 1:9,10. But, perhaps that would make more sense to some of you if the word "excellent" in verse 10 were translated (more accurately) as "different." Because many things that Paul spoke of and wrote about were, in fact, quite different from what was coming out of the church that was in Jerusalem. Maybe then this "right dividing" or separating that is spoken of of 2 Timothy makes plenty good sense, given Paul's prayer in Philippians for their love to abound yet more and more... which appears to be a prerequisite for approving things that are "different" (I.e., needing separation.)
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T-Bone
Wow, Socks – you’ve really got me thinking there!
Wasn’t it something along the lines of a transition out of necessity for the early Christians to start meeting in the homes – since the Gospel message wasn’t that welcome in the synagogues… …but as you said seeing something like what we read about in Acts as just one facet of a “functional guide as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body…” so maybe there’s some formalism…or traditionalism in the thinking of some folks who have an excessive adherence to doing some things exactly as they did in the Bible. I guess it looks biblical.
…different times, different cultures…and a lot more technology…the Internet, cell-phones, blogs, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, books, magazines, "planes, trains and automobiles"
etc. help folks connect, focus, organize, meet, stay informed and not just the social aspect but even scripture/doctrine/research-wise…we’re light-years ahead of the printing press – online Bibles, commentaries, research tools, etc...that reminds me - I heard of a drive-thru church on the radio...I'm not kidding...that's just another amazing modern marvel 
.
a few years ago there was a discussion on one thread where I mentioned something along the lines of Grease Spot being my church. In some ways it still is…granted, it’s a pretty diverse congregation with no special creed... I think there’s an ongoing healing service in the About the Way forum…well, it’s great therapy for me anyway…and I kinda see the Doctrinal forum as a multi-faith * council where Grease Spotters come together to exchange ideas and information and to have a dialog about biblical/spiritual/religious/philosophical and sometimes social issues. (* by “multi-faith” in this context I simply mean "faith" is whatever your beliefs are - I just used "faith" cuz it sounds churchy ).
but - - - - even though the times and cultures may be different – I think you’ll still find the same basic concerns are present: family, safety & security, livelihood, social needs, the human condition…purpose and meaning in life...so I think the guts of your religion, philosophy...or whatever it is that you believe has the "timeless answers" - should be able to adapt to any given environment and conditions to meet those needs.
Yikes ! Can I ramble or what?!?! Sorry about that…anyway bringing it back to some thoughts I’ve had pertinent to this thread: who wants to revive and restore things to “the good old days”...or however you fondly remember things...Not me…honestly, everyone has had different experiences…I prefer to pick and choose what to hold on to and what new direction or directions to explore...as far as the R and R folks go - - I guess I am
…yeah – right – that’s some noble-sounding bull$hit if you ask me.
Edited by T-Bonealittlevery leery or cynical that a bunch of “old timers” who have no retirement benefits from TWI now want to start their own group purely for altruistic reasons…getting back to the good old days or whatever it is they're trying to resuscitateThyme travel: a flatbed landscaping truck hauling a buttload of aromatic perennial evergreen herbs
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socks
You're a ramblin' TBone, but no more than me! Great stuff, I'll be digesting for awhile.
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socks
Thanks.
The stand-for-the-boss routines used in the Way were, are heinous. You'd think if they read Corinthians and Ephesians they'd get the idea that when the "believers" get together to hang out, pray, fellowship or eat it should be the ONE and possibly last place on earth where you can chill and be yourself and not have to lose a good seat and the big piece of chicken to some "elder" everyone feels the need to impress since they took their precious time to come and eat your food, drink your coffee and talk to you about something you may have already heard. Many times. And better. So I agree with that.
Someone told me once they'd drive hours to hear Lynn teach - "He's SO FUNNY".
He's not that funny. You gotta be pretty lonely, desperate or just plain sad to think that. I think that's why he mugs it up so much - he uses physical tips and triggers to signal when he's trying to be funny. Somewhere between the standing up for His Reverendship and the auto-laughter triggers there's a sore butt in a chair, that much I know. But - it's better than robbing a 7-11 I guess.
Edited by socksI left my keys on the stool.
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socks
R and R -
Martin Luther's objections to Roman Catholic doctrine and practice led his actions. RC doctrine was a hybrid of the Bible's "saved by faith" or as Paul put it another doctrine that wasn't really another doctrine but a completely different animal of it's own kind. Luther also objected then of course to them selling Indulgences, certificates that gave remission of sins after one died. Now THAT'S a scam worthy of some effort. If you're going to absolutely degrade anything resembling even the slightest bit of good, then go all in - put one's eternal future on it and sell that puppy. Sit back and watch it roll in. Pretty nifty. If you're THE DEVIL.
Anyway, Luther wasn't really trying to demolish or destroy the Catholic Church, he wanted to clean it up, purge it. He also had some ideas that would become popular later, like getting rid of the Jews in Germany. Anyway...
Restoring and reviving is only important to people's lives. I can say that easily because whatever I lost through my dis association with the Way has been far outweighed by not having to be entangled with their bullsh it. The only thing I care about still today are the people involved, but if they're happy stewing and simmering there I can't do anything about that. Frankly I've never made it a full time job to "save" them from themselves. Cuz they don' a wanna change, so they's a not a gonna change, no matta wattah I do.
Luther never got the RC's to change. Well, maybe a teeny bit sort of over years but not in any real substantive way that they would recognize. More recently I think it was Pope Benedict who tried to establish some ecumenical platform for RC's accepting a couple tenets of Protestant theology buuuuuut I think that's just window dressing on the ol' RC Childcare Store front. I mean, they're church face.
Anyway - that's why I don't worry about what the next wave of geezers leaving the Way is doing. The only advice I would give them is they aren't young anymore, so there's not a lot of years to burn doing something you don't really want to do. So get busy livin' and get on with it.
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waysider
Wisdom that transcends time.
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shiftthis
I have been going to way fellowships since 1980. Those people in that panel are some of the false teachers mentioned in Peter. I know a guy that was F'd over by one of them. Good riddance !
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DogLover
Remove and replace is a much better idea.
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penworks
I think it's ridiculous that they are getting any attention from anyone on the planet.
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Raf
When we left in 1989, the majority of NYers had a simple position:
Changing the presidency of TWI would no longer be considered a solution because anyone who replaced LCM from within at that point would have been someone who bent the knee -- someone who chose LCM over JC.
It's an interesting take that allowed us to exclude from serious consideration anyone who did not leave at the same time we did (Dubofsky, Lynn, Schoenheit, Graeser and others all left too soon. Everyone else, too late.
My observation is that this temporary isolationism softened as the years passed. But at the time, it was an interesting dynamic
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