My understanding is he left because Rosalie closed the research department. She said they know all they need to know. I almost choked when I learned about that.
Well......Steven Longley has a long road of learning ahead.
Charlene's book, Undertow.......could go a long way in showing him that twi's "research department" had been hamstrung by wierwille since the early 1980s. Perhaps, Steven (11th corps grad - 1983) didn't see the revolving door at the research department as so many talented individuals left.
IMO........All of wierwille's ballyhoo circled his wagons around 1) research, 2) teaching, and 3) fellowship in a twisted version of wierwilleology, a first cousin of scientology. Research the dots and squibbles in every Pauline verse.......teach it in the context of cult doxology........and gather together in meetings to fellowship around it.
Maybe.......it's time to rejoice in "the simplicity that is in Christ."
Maybe.......it's time to stop seeking positions of power as "researchers" and "teachers."
Maybe.......it's time to unload trucks at Wheeler Mission.
Maybe.......it's time to put on an apron and serve food at a homeless shelter.
Maybe.......it's time to undo the heavy burdens and set at liberty them that are bruised.
8) Sexual predation by wierwille, martindale and others is well-documented; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group.
==
No repentance to God......for hurting others and leading thousands astray. Nope. The past is past. Check. How could anyone know if they have repented?
==
Of course, other corps have followed them out the door.......but have they come clean? Or joined another cult? Check. I don't know how to respond to this one.
I think it’s a matter of principle that one should make an official response when the organization that one was once a part of comes under fire for the predatory behavior of top leadership; to remain silent is to be complicit in the matter; that’s why we hear of institutions and organizations issuing statements condemning such behavior in their ranks - seems like that’s been in the news a lot for awhile now.
And as far knowing whether or not they’ve repented -as if it’s just a matter between their conscience and God - is to reduce the act of repentance to nothing more than a shallow self-medicating drug to dull the soul’s sense of what’s right and wrong - especially when there’s others involved who were hurt by their actions - or in-actions - just looking the other way or remaining silent on the matter.
So there’s a lot more to true repentance than just squaring away things with God almighty - Since we’re talking about things that happened in the Church - we should seek biblical references on how things should be handled; just to mention two that come to mind (there’s a ton more throughout the Bible) there’s Matthew 5: 23 & 24 about the priority of reconciling with those we have hurt - Jesus said that was more important than any religious or spiritual obligation; and there’s Matthew 18 verses 15 and following on dealing with sin in the Church.
just to mention two that come to mind (there’s a ton more throughout the Bible) there’s Matthew 5: 23 & 24 about the priority of reconciling with those we have hurt - Jesus said that was more important than any religious or spiritual obligation; and there’s Matthew 18 verses 15 and following on dealing with sin in the Church.
I wasn't aware of them in their entire first year, and I don't know any of the details of what these folks may or may not have done after leaving TWI, so this is just speculation.
In Matt 5, I think the presumption is they know how to find the person who had been offended. Maybe they want to but don't know how to find them.
In Matt 18, it is the offended person that is to approach the offender. I'm sure some here have approached these folks while they were still with TWI, but have they approached them since they left? I remember DWBH mentioning contacting someone, but I don't remember when that was. The reply he received was startling to me. But that was only one person. What about the rest? The attempt I made a while ago for some here was done anonymously, and they didn't seem to appreciate that.
And I would be EXTREMELY interested in hearing about it. That would speak louder than a megaphone, whether they have the humility to work through it all or not.
i can think of solutions to that problem; how about a public apology...come clean on any wrong-doings or cover-ups. You might be surprised at how many would come forth ; we’ve seen it in the news when a scandal breaks - how many come forth who were afraid to before because of what would happen to their career, livelihood or whatever reason.
Being in a position of influence - a leader...a teacher...think about what you convey to those you mentor or know your personal lifestyle when you’re not on “stage”...a predator such as wierwille taught - by example - it’s ok to be a hypocrite - it’s one of the perks of being “spiritually mature”... in effect establishing a double standard . One standard for those in “the pews” - or in his classes or reading his books - and another standard for those in power.
And how would they go about that? It's not like the latest Catholic scandal, where it's already in the news media. Facebook? Would you see their posts?
So, what about the Matt 18 aspect? Do you not want to confront them?
1 hour ago, T-Bone said:
Don’t know how to find them?!?!
that’s hilarious!!!!
Like I said, I was speculating. Okay, it's always good to have a chuckle, right?
How to issue a public apology? The same way they get their teachings out there - a website...newsletter...phone hook-ups...whatever - just use the same platform they’ve been using to spread their message.
Maybe a reason why the sex and abuse scandals of cults are not in the mainstream news is because cults like to remain in the shadows - so they can have more spin control.
As far as the offended party confronting the offender in light of Matthew 18 - many here at Grease Spot will testify how well that worked out...usually the person bringing allegations against a leader is declared to be possessed and/or railroaded off property “booms quick”...other defensive measures have been used like “Mark and Avoid”.
I really couldn't say. What I do understand is how heavily indoctrinated many of them were, and for a long time. I'm sure that takes time to undo. And while they do still admire VPW, I readily bring up my disagreements, when I have them, despite the adherence to his teachings that many of them have. I have no real ties to them, so if they don't like that I contradict teachings and tell me I'm no longer welcome, so be it. But so far, that hasn't happened.
Taxi, I believe I told you this before; please be careful about this R&R group. To me, something stinks in Denmark. You have been warned.
It seems to me that you have had no interaction with them at all, for you to make this claim. I have been following them since May of 2017 and they have not once tried to tell us what to do or not do, other than that they don't want us to tithe to them. And I think that's wonderful for two reasons: 1. The tithe doesn't apply to us, and 2. They aren't interested in our money.
So, if they have a lust for position they have a pretty funny way of going about it.
This is also incorrect. I presented a disagreement, and it went into a group discussion, and they ended up thanking me for my input. In fact, they have had a few teachings already that corrected things we all had learned from TWI.
So, I must ask, how are you so sure of what they are doing?
All right so I'm back to answering this post. My "interaction" with them consists of going through this thread, listening to their video and listening to it, and then comparing what I hear now with all of those people and what I knew of them over the years I actually worked with them face to face, what they shared, how they acted, the people they abused, how they covered up things, how they carried on their own acts independent of VPW and LCM. I find what they say now to be kind lacking much "congruity". That is all I am willing to say at this point without going into extreme detail about the evil in people's past. Suffice it to say there is cause for alarm and concern.
Their lust for position they are displaying now is evident throughout their actions. For instance, why did the "council of 7 or whatever that appeared in that video even need to appear at all?" Plenty have confronted the Way, left the way, sent letters in. What was the purpose behind that pomp and circumstance video that contained a whole lot of nothing? So that everyone watching would see who their new leadership would be. That is the group that is planning out what is taught on Sundays, right? They are the central group to whom people ask questions about the Bible? Correct?
We've invited that specific group to come interact here - and they have to a person declined. Why?
I say they accept no other Christian input, and you are climbing all over me because you consider yourself to be "other Christian input". But consider for a minute, are they interacting with other Christians regularly? Or does the "council" just meet regularly and plan weekly teachings? Do they meet with local Christian pastors? Why not? Most other churches do. What specific other groups of Christians outside of those under their influence do they interact with regularly? I would say they appease you and do what they want. The matter you brought up was not that significant.
Why are they acting "separatist" from the rest of the body of Christ to include even those who left the Way a decade before them?
Of course, they aren't going to tell anyone what to do, and just teach the Bible. Just like Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer after the Way discarded them. CFF was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, all the good Bible and none of the rules. Woohoo! Wayne would fly around the country and meet with whoever wanted to, be loving, whatever. Recruitment. Then sign you up for running one of their fellowships. They tried to poach off disgruntled Way followers for a decade or more, and now have turned into kind of like a local church combined with a Way Tree structure with home fellowships over the country. Their Sunday teachings drive everything.
I know of a half a dozen similar organizations and fellowships that exist within 100 square miles of where I currently live. People who split off from the Way, carved out their own little Private Idaho, and have run fellowships or "ministries" since then. All have one thing in common - the unreasonable adoration of Victor Paul Wierwille and his works.
Some of this is how I am sure of what they are doing. None of it is presumptuous, other than presuming more details from history than you are aware of.
Why are they acting "separatist" from the rest of the body of Christ to include even those who left the Way a decade before them?
Exactly right, chockfull.......
Why doesn't/didn't the R&R "leaders" contact CFF? or Panarello's group?
If they want to LEARN HOW TO UNDO CULT INDOCTRINATION..........here at GSC, we've been discussing these things for 18 years !!!
Could it be (cough, cough) that Moynihan, Fort, Horney, Sheldon, Longley and others want to start a splinter? bask in adulation? consolidate power? have access to weekly tithes and offerings, travel perks, and free dinner invites wherever they travel to teach? These guys are near retirement and need a lane to run in. They are self-serving.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they told people to "stay off the internet and stay away from GSC." LOL
"Incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW"......(your words). Check - Agreed
Teaching wierwille-doctrine...... Not really. For instance, Steven Longley did a great teaching on "likeminded", which did NOT follow what TWI propounded. He showed, through his own research, that is has nothing to do with following what some "leader" wants, but rather what Jesus Christ wants.
1) Word takes place of absent Christ [Christ is absent?]; Hasn't happened
2) Hierarchy positions to lord over others.....[why can't 'advanced class grads' be the leaders???]; There are no "leaders", per se, only the original group that handles the web site, and the teaching schedule.
3) The Law of Believing.....[are they teaching this? still?]; I haven't heard anything on this yet. The law of Love, yes.
4) Ultra-dispensationalism.....thus, rendering the 4 gospels "for our learning"; I haven't heard anything on this yet either.
5) Wierwille was THE man of God......and Our Father in the Word [like CFF gave allegiance/innuendo to for years!!]; They have not propounded this, but informally several have expressed their respect for many of his teachings of old, so old that I haven't heard them.
6) Not willing to discuss or admit that wierwille was a plagiarist.....big time!!; I don't know what they did for their entire first year, and I was only partially following them from May 2017 to November. So what they discussed and/or admitted is not known to me.
7) Wierwille's "research" is the final authority....cannot challenge it; I have already challenged something with them, and there was a great discussion, and they were appreciative of my input. And as mentioned above, Longley contradicted his "research" already.
8) Sexual predation by wierwille, martindale and others is well-documented; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group.
9) Corps coordinators were in lockstep-loyalty to wierwille and martindale.......and yeah, I'm looking at you Moneyhands, Forts, and Horneys; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group, but I know things like this can happen in a cult.
10) The corps program was straight-up indoctrination.....and followship, NOT leadership!!! I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group. Etc. etc. etc. Check.
Centralization of power........authority is wielded by Ex-corps coordinators and corps. Imagine that. Check. The only "authority" demonstrated is in the handling of their web site.
No local church involvement........just "teaching the word." Gawd, does it get MORE OBVIOUS?? Check. Because they are all scattered throughout the US, I have no way of knowing what they are all doing on a local level. Do you?
No repentance to God......for hurting others and leading thousands astray. Nope. The past is past. Check. How could anyone know if they have repented?
No accountability.........anybody can teach the damn propaganda. I'd rather SEE the sermon..... Check. So far I haven't heard any propaganda teachings, only some pretty deep teachings of the Word.
No reaching out to CFF, or CES, or other splinters......WHY do they want to start their OWN group? $$$ and adulation. Check. So far, they have been very specific they don't want money. I haven't seen a desire for adulation, but I am not psychic.
Of course, other corps have followed them out the door.......but have they come clean? Or joined another cult? Check. I don't know how to respond to this one.
Cult institutionalized.......hanging with those who jumped ship when you did? Is THAT the standard? Check. My understanding of a cult includes control, but there are no words/actions or anything else in the way of control.
Stage #1.......Do NOT ask for money. Build the following FIRST. Every splinter does this. Check. And this one, as far as I'm concerned, is something in the "wait and see" category. I would like that your are incorrect, but I know there is the possibility you are not.
You appear to be too close to the subject to be capable of objective analysis. In journalism, that's strictly forbidden. On forums, not so much.
The key point is that you rationalize and try to justify what you see. You SAY you're just giving your observations, but you're just too close to your subject.
Case in point: you clearly have stated that you have not observed evidence of the R&R group wanting followers' money. Do you have any idea what an investigative journalist would do to actually find out? It goes well beyond seeing whether they have a "donate" button on their website. I've asked you questions that could lead you to exploring the issue if you had a genuine inquisitiveness. Beyond claiming "they have been very specific they don't want money," how deep has been the public discussion about how the organization will fund its activities?
i can think of solutions to that problem; how about a public apology...come clean on any wrong-doings or cover-ups. You might be surprised at how many would come forth ; we’ve seen it in the news when a scandal breaks - how many come forth who were afraid to before because of what would happen to their career, livelihood or whatever reason.
Like... this IS on the internet. Can people not be found if they have any footprint on the internet?????
And how would they go about that? It's not like the latest Catholic scandal, where it's already in the news media. Facebook? Would you see their posts?
I have to wonder about your level of curiosity... and/or resourcefulness. Dude, if you want to know something... "seek and ye shall find." Ever heard of that before?
filthy lucre is a hard one to explain - KJV term. practically it may have zero to do with actual finances, but more to do with perceived power and influence. in whatever circle you travel someone who is able to show influence over larger numbers has more perceived power, and can come to a point where they are reluctant to give it up.
Alrighty then. Thanks for all of that. And, BTW, I was the person that invited them here for all of you.
1 hour ago, chockfull said:
Plenty have confronted the Way, left the way, sent letters in. What was the purpose behind that pomp and circumstance video that contained a whole lot of nothing?
That's an interesting point. I was supposing they wanted to communicate to the Way body the action/reaction between them and the BOD. But, it's true, plenty of people have left TWI and they just seem to vanish. I remember when Larry Panarello left - it took months for me to even find out he was gone.
1 hour ago, chockfull said:
That is the group that is planning out what is taught on Sundays, right?
I'm not sure who organizes that, but I do know they don't decide what is taught, only who will be teaching. Someone in my area was asked to teach, and then he taught what he wanted to teach.
2 hours ago, chockfull said:
CFF
I just found about about this one today, and when I looked at the web site I wasn't impressed. I was actually going to post a question here to see if anyone knew anything about them. So thanks for sharing that.
2 hours ago, chockfull said:
I actually worked with them face to face
Well, that changes my view of what you had originally brought up. I keep forgetting that many of you here were involved long ago, and at the root. Forgive me.
I appreciate everything you've shared about this. Please know I am always interested in learning more of the history of TWI, and of the individuals.
Beyond claiming "they have been very specific they don't want money," how deep has been the public discussion about how the organization will fund its activities?
Their web site is very simple, so I'm supposing, based on personal experience, that it costs them $120 / yr for that, plus another $12 for the domain name. Between the 12 or so that signed that last letter, I think they can handle that.
As for anything else they do, I don't know of any public discussion. I only know they haven't ask us out in the ether for any money. That's good enough for me.
I do know that when they have an event, they divide the cost of the venue among those attending. I just found out today that a few of them are running classes, and they are free.
You appear to be too close to the subject to be capable of objective analysis.
I don't know why you would think that. I personally know two of them, and they don't seem to be part of the coordinating group. I listen to their teachings on Sundays, but I listen to teachings from many people. I haven't participated in any of their other activities.
So, I'm probably as close to them as I am to GSC, and I'm not close to anyone here either. I appreciate what I've learned from many here, just as I appreciate what I learn from anyone, R&R included.
I see the biggest difference between me and many here with regards to the R&R group is that I'm not holding onto anger against them. So I'm free to just watch them at arms length without emotion clouding my vision. And that vision is in the now, not the past.
Taxi, I believe I told you this before; please be careful about this R&R group. To me, something stinks in Denmark. You have been warned.
Thanks, Grace. I appreciate your concern, and I am being careful. I'm not personally involved with them, I just listen to the teachings on Sundays, just as I listen to teachings from others.
I don't know why you would think that. I personally know two of them, and they don't seem to be part of the coordinating group. I listen to their teachings on Sundays, but I listen to teachings from many people. I haven't participated in any of their other activities.
So, I'm probably as close to them as I am to GSC, and I'm not close to anyone here either. I appreciate what I've learned from many here, just as I appreciate what I learn from anyone, R&R included.
I see the biggest difference between me and many here with regards to the R&R group is that I'm not holding onto anger against them. So I'm free to just watch them at arms length without emotion clouding my vision. And that vision is in the now, not the past.
Glad you asked for clarification. I answered it in several prior posts on this thread. Btw, I'm (three plus) decades removed from involvement with twi so I have no anger. But in that three plus decades, I have lived a life. I've had careers in accounting and journalism. I've tried to be well read on issues of life. I also have a few (12 or so) years experience in the cult. You might say I've been around the block a few times.
If you really want to know why I would think that, reread a few key posts I've made (like defining humanity, recognizing patterns and habits, etc.) and if you still want further insight on the question, certainly ask away.
I don't read most of the comments on this thread as being angry. But correctly recognizing emotion in interaction between people is also very important in the process of understanding group dynamics.
As I've said before, you don't seem to demonstrate much curiosity or inquisitiveness regarding the group. You very likely could learn a lot more about them, beneath the surface so to speak, if you did.
As I've said before, you don't seem to demonstrate much curiosity or inquisitiveness regarding the group. You very likely could learn a lot more about them, beneath the surface so to speak, if you did.
You are correct, I'm not really interested in digging deeper into this group. I'm just watching them, and listening to what they teach. As for beneath the surface, I really don't care what's beneath the surface. When it rises to the surface, then I'll care. Until then, I'll just watch and listen.
6 hours ago, Rocky said:
Glad you asked for clarification. I answered it in several prior posts on this thread.
You have already explained why you would think I'm too close to them to be objective? Please point me to that, because I don't remember anything like that in anything you've posted.
Oh? You mean the Steve and Meg Longley at whose wedding I officiated? The Meg Longley that lived with my family and I in one of the trailers at HQ for a year? That Steve Longley had something to do with that bogus non-Research Dept.? Bwaaaahahahaha! Now THAT’S funny! If he’s some kind of “example” for you, you’re understanding of the Bible is quite limited imho.
I don't know why you would think that. I personally know two of them, and they don't seem to be part of the coordinating group. I listen to their teachings on Sundays, but I listen to teachings from many people. I haven't participated in any of their other activities.
So, I'm probably as close to them as I am to GSC, and I'm not close to anyone here either. I appreciate what I've learned from many here, just as I appreciate what I learn from anyone, R&R included.
I see the biggest difference between me and many here with regards to the R&R group is that I'm not holding onto anger against them. So I'm free to just watch them at arms length without emotion clouding my vision. And that vision is in the now, not the past.
That’s probably a safer way to check things out…
…I’ve found from my experience with a cult, the more involved you get with the group the more they sink their claws into you; it’s called organizational entanglement.
I think that’s why the mass exodus after the passing of a turd paper came out was comprised mostly of a lot of corps. We were the deeply committed and involved ones who experienced firsthand the “wear and tear” of the cult’s life-sucking machinations…I imagine for a long time prior, there were a variety of reasons to leave building up in the hearts of many – and perhaps the aftermath of the turd paper – which I think was the first truly big challenge to the power structure of TWI - was merely the tipping point in many folks’ minds - finally deciding to actually leave TWI…
…while at the same time you had most of the faithful followers down at the local fellowship level scratching their heads wondering what the hell was going on – “how come all these corps people tripped out?”; corps were like a buffer zone, that insulated the lower levels from a lot of those life-sucking machinations…often softening any “mandates” issued from HQ, being a good sales rep for whatever HQ was “selling”, absorbing the costs (time and resources) of keeping classes and events operational and generally doing this with a good attitude because we thought we were serving God and the one true ministry…yeah, just sucking it up in the daily grind as long as that feel-good-pablum gets doled out to the masses and they keep that money rolling in to HQ.
...so anyway...if you happen to get more involved with them let me know of your experience.
That Steve Longley had something to do with that bogus non-Research Dept.? Bwaaaahahahaha! Now THAT’S funny! If he’s some kind of “example” for you, you’re understanding of the Bible is quite limited imho.
I didn't say he was an example for me. I said he did a good teaching on what likeminded actually is, as opposed to what TWI propounded it to be.
while at the same time you had most of the faithful followers down at the local fellowship level scratching their heads wondering what the hell was going on – “how come all these corps people tripped out?”;
I think it would have been helpful to all of us out there if something had been communicated. The BOD certainly wasn't going to do it, so we were left to our imaginations every time.
39 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
so anyway...if you happen to get more involved with them let me know of your experience.
Don't hold your breath.
From what I've learned here about the lot of them, I may just remain at arm's length, and just enjoy my local fellowship, and maybe get involved in some community aid program here in my area. I know I have my own ministry, as do all of us, and I don't need anyone to give me direction on that - I get that from God. And there are more than enough resources that if I have a question about scripture, I'm positive I can get it clarified.
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Hi All! Well....I actually finished forcing myself to listen to those lying, sanctimonious, self-deluded fools. I could only take it in 8-10 minute segments, once a day. I felt as if I was watchi
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skyrider
Well......Steven Longley has a long road of learning ahead.
Charlene's book, Undertow.......could go a long way in showing him that twi's "research department" had been hamstrung by wierwille since the early 1980s. Perhaps, Steven (11th corps grad - 1983) didn't see the revolving door at the research department as so many talented individuals left.
IMO........All of wierwille's ballyhoo circled his wagons around 1) research, 2) teaching, and 3) fellowship in a twisted version of wierwilleology, a first cousin of scientology. Research the dots and squibbles in every Pauline verse.......teach it in the context of cult doxology........and gather together in meetings to fellowship around it.
Maybe.......it's time to rejoice in "the simplicity that is in Christ."
Maybe.......it's time to stop seeking positions of power as "researchers" and "teachers."
Maybe.......it's time to unload trucks at Wheeler Mission.
Maybe.......it's time to put on an apron and serve food at a homeless shelter.
Maybe.......it's time to undo the heavy burdens and set at liberty them that are bruised.
Maybe.......it's time to walk As He Is.
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T-Bone
I think it’s a matter of principle that one should make an official response when the organization that one was once a part of comes under fire for the predatory behavior of top leadership; to remain silent is to be complicit in the matter; that’s why we hear of institutions and organizations issuing statements condemning such behavior in their ranks - seems like that’s been in the news a lot for awhile now.
And as far knowing whether or not they’ve repented -as if it’s just a matter between their conscience and God - is to reduce the act of repentance to nothing more than a shallow self-medicating drug to dull the soul’s sense of what’s right and wrong - especially when there’s others involved who were hurt by their actions - or in-actions - just looking the other way or remaining silent on the matter.
So there’s a lot more to true repentance than just squaring away things with God almighty - Since we’re talking about things that happened in the Church - we should seek biblical references on how things should be handled; just to mention two that come to mind (there’s a ton more throughout the Bible) there’s Matthew 5: 23 & 24 about the priority of reconciling with those we have hurt - Jesus said that was more important than any religious or spiritual obligation; and there’s Matthew 18 verses 15 and following on dealing with sin in the Church.
Edited by T-BoneRevision
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Taxidev
What a GREAT term!
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Taxidev
I wasn't aware of them in their entire first year, and I don't know any of the details of what these folks may or may not have done after leaving TWI, so this is just speculation.
In Matt 5, I think the presumption is they know how to find the person who had been offended. Maybe they want to but don't know how to find them.
In Matt 18, it is the offended person that is to approach the offender. I'm sure some here have approached these folks while they were still with TWI, but have they approached them since they left? I remember DWBH mentioning contacting someone, but I don't remember when that was. The reply he received was startling to me. But that was only one person. What about the rest? The attempt I made a while ago for some here was done anonymously, and they didn't seem to appreciate that.
And I would be EXTREMELY interested in hearing about it. That would speak louder than a megaphone, whether they have the humility to work through it all or not.
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T-Bone
Don’t know how to find them?!?!
that’s hilarious!!!!
i can think of solutions to that problem; how about a public apology...come clean on any wrong-doings or cover-ups. You might be surprised at how many would come forth ; we’ve seen it in the news when a scandal breaks - how many come forth who were afraid to before because of what would happen to their career, livelihood or whatever reason.
Being in a position of influence - a leader...a teacher...think about what you convey to those you mentor or know your personal lifestyle when you’re not on “stage”...a predator such as wierwille taught - by example - it’s ok to be a hypocrite - it’s one of the perks of being “spiritually mature”... in effect establishing a double standard . One standard for those in “the pews” - or in his classes or reading his books - and another standard for those in power.
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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Taxidev
And how would they go about that? It's not like the latest Catholic scandal, where it's already in the news media. Facebook? Would you see their posts?
So, what about the Matt 18 aspect? Do you not want to confront them?
Like I said, I was speculating. Okay, it's always good to have a chuckle, right?
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T-Bone
How to issue a public apology? The same way they get their teachings out there - a website...newsletter...phone hook-ups...whatever - just use the same platform they’ve been using to spread their message.
Maybe a reason why the sex and abuse scandals of cults are not in the mainstream news is because cults like to remain in the shadows - so they can have more spin control.
As far as the offended party confronting the offender in light of Matthew 18 - many here at Grease Spot will testify how well that worked out...usually the person bringing allegations against a leader is declared to be possessed and/or railroaded off property “booms quick”...other defensive measures have been used like “Mark and Avoid”.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi, I believe I told you this before; please be careful about this R&R group. To me, something stinks in Denmark. You have been warned.
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chockfull
All right so I'm back to answering this post. My "interaction" with them consists of going through this thread, listening to their video and listening to it, and then comparing what I hear now with all of those people and what I knew of them over the years I actually worked with them face to face, what they shared, how they acted, the people they abused, how they covered up things, how they carried on their own acts independent of VPW and LCM. I find what they say now to be kind lacking much "congruity". That is all I am willing to say at this point without going into extreme detail about the evil in people's past. Suffice it to say there is cause for alarm and concern.
Their lust for position they are displaying now is evident throughout their actions. For instance, why did the "council of 7 or whatever that appeared in that video even need to appear at all?" Plenty have confronted the Way, left the way, sent letters in. What was the purpose behind that pomp and circumstance video that contained a whole lot of nothing? So that everyone watching would see who their new leadership would be. That is the group that is planning out what is taught on Sundays, right? They are the central group to whom people ask questions about the Bible? Correct?
We've invited that specific group to come interact here - and they have to a person declined. Why?
I say they accept no other Christian input, and you are climbing all over me because you consider yourself to be "other Christian input". But consider for a minute, are they interacting with other Christians regularly? Or does the "council" just meet regularly and plan weekly teachings? Do they meet with local Christian pastors? Why not? Most other churches do. What specific other groups of Christians outside of those under their influence do they interact with regularly? I would say they appease you and do what they want. The matter you brought up was not that significant.
Why are they acting "separatist" from the rest of the body of Christ to include even those who left the Way a decade before them?
Of course, they aren't going to tell anyone what to do, and just teach the Bible. Just like Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer after the Way discarded them. CFF was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, all the good Bible and none of the rules. Woohoo! Wayne would fly around the country and meet with whoever wanted to, be loving, whatever. Recruitment. Then sign you up for running one of their fellowships. They tried to poach off disgruntled Way followers for a decade or more, and now have turned into kind of like a local church combined with a Way Tree structure with home fellowships over the country. Their Sunday teachings drive everything.
I know of a half a dozen similar organizations and fellowships that exist within 100 square miles of where I currently live. People who split off from the Way, carved out their own little Private Idaho, and have run fellowships or "ministries" since then. All have one thing in common - the unreasonable adoration of Victor Paul Wierwille and his works.
Some of this is how I am sure of what they are doing. None of it is presumptuous, other than presuming more details from history than you are aware of.
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skyrider
Exactly right, chockfull.......
Why doesn't/didn't the R&R "leaders" contact CFF? or Panarello's group?
If they want to LEARN HOW TO UNDO CULT INDOCTRINATION..........here at GSC, we've been discussing these things for 18 years !!!
Could it be (cough, cough) that Moynihan, Fort, Horney, Sheldon, Longley and others want to start a splinter? bask in adulation? consolidate power? have access to weekly tithes and offerings, travel perks, and free dinner invites wherever they travel to teach? These guys are near retirement and need a lane to run in. They are self-serving.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they told people to "stay off the internet and stay away from GSC." LOL
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Rocky
You appear to be too close to the subject to be capable of objective analysis. In journalism, that's strictly forbidden. On forums, not so much.
The key point is that you rationalize and try to justify what you see. You SAY you're just giving your observations, but you're just too close to your subject.
Case in point: you clearly have stated that you have not observed evidence of the R&R group wanting followers' money. Do you have any idea what an investigative journalist would do to actually find out? It goes well beyond seeing whether they have a "donate" button on their website. I've asked you questions that could lead you to exploring the issue if you had a genuine inquisitiveness. Beyond claiming "they have been very specific they don't want money," how deep has been the public discussion about how the organization will fund its activities?
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Rocky
Like... this IS on the internet. Can people not be found if they have any footprint on the internet?????
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Rocky
I have to wonder about your level of curiosity... and/or resourcefulness. Dude, if you want to know something... "seek and ye shall find." Ever heard of that before?
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chockfull
filthy lucre is a hard one to explain - KJV term. practically it may have zero to do with actual finances, but more to do with perceived power and influence. in whatever circle you travel someone who is able to show influence over larger numbers has more perceived power, and can come to a point where they are reluctant to give it up.
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Taxidev
Alrighty then. Thanks for all of that. And, BTW, I was the person that invited them here for all of you.
That's an interesting point. I was supposing they wanted to communicate to the Way body the action/reaction between them and the BOD. But, it's true, plenty of people have left TWI and they just seem to vanish. I remember when Larry Panarello left - it took months for me to even find out he was gone.
I'm not sure who organizes that, but I do know they don't decide what is taught, only who will be teaching. Someone in my area was asked to teach, and then he taught what he wanted to teach.
I just found about about this one today, and when I looked at the web site I wasn't impressed. I was actually going to post a question here to see if anyone knew anything about them. So thanks for sharing that.
Well, that changes my view of what you had originally brought up. I keep forgetting that many of you here were involved long ago, and at the root. Forgive me.
I appreciate everything you've shared about this. Please know I am always interested in learning more of the history of TWI, and of the individuals.
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Taxidev
Their web site is very simple, so I'm supposing, based on personal experience, that it costs them $120 / yr for that, plus another $12 for the domain name. Between the 12 or so that signed that last letter, I think they can handle that.
As for anything else they do, I don't know of any public discussion. I only know they haven't ask us out in the ether for any money. That's good enough for me.
I do know that when they have an event, they divide the cost of the venue among those attending. I just found out today that a few of them are running classes, and they are free.
That's all I know regarding the money, Rocky.
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Taxidev
I don't know why you would think that. I personally know two of them, and they don't seem to be part of the coordinating group. I listen to their teachings on Sundays, but I listen to teachings from many people. I haven't participated in any of their other activities.
So, I'm probably as close to them as I am to GSC, and I'm not close to anyone here either. I appreciate what I've learned from many here, just as I appreciate what I learn from anyone, R&R included.
I see the biggest difference between me and many here with regards to the R&R group is that I'm not holding onto anger against them. So I'm free to just watch them at arms length without emotion clouding my vision. And that vision is in the now, not the past.
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Taxidev
Thanks, Grace. I appreciate your concern, and I am being careful. I'm not personally involved with them, I just listen to the teachings on Sundays, just as I listen to teachings from others.
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Rocky
Glad you asked for clarification. I answered it in several prior posts on this thread. Btw, I'm (three plus) decades removed from involvement with twi so I have no anger. But in that three plus decades, I have lived a life. I've had careers in accounting and journalism. I've tried to be well read on issues of life. I also have a few (12 or so) years experience in the cult. You might say I've been around the block a few times.
If you really want to know why I would think that, reread a few key posts I've made (like defining humanity, recognizing patterns and habits, etc.) and if you still want further insight on the question, certainly ask away.
I don't read most of the comments on this thread as being angry. But correctly recognizing emotion in interaction between people is also very important in the process of understanding group dynamics.
As I've said before, you don't seem to demonstrate much curiosity or inquisitiveness regarding the group. You very likely could learn a lot more about them, beneath the surface so to speak, if you did.
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Taxidev
You are correct, I'm not really interested in digging deeper into this group. I'm just watching them, and listening to what they teach. As for beneath the surface, I really don't care what's beneath the surface. When it rises to the surface, then I'll care. Until then, I'll just watch and listen.
You have already explained why you would think I'm too close to them to be objective? Please point me to that, because I don't remember anything like that in anything you've posted.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Oh? You mean the Steve and Meg Longley at whose wedding I officiated? The Meg Longley that lived with my family and I in one of the trailers at HQ for a year? That Steve Longley had something to do with that bogus non-Research Dept.? Bwaaaahahahaha! Now THAT’S funny! If he’s some kind of “example” for you, you’re understanding of the Bible is quite limited imho.
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T-Bone
That’s probably a safer way to check things out…
…I’ve found from my experience with a cult, the more involved you get with the group the more they sink their claws into you; it’s called organizational entanglement.
I think that’s why the mass exodus after the passing of a turd paper came out was comprised mostly of a lot of corps. We were the deeply committed and involved ones who experienced firsthand the “wear and tear” of the cult’s life-sucking machinations…I imagine for a long time prior, there were a variety of reasons to leave building up in the hearts of many – and perhaps the aftermath of the turd paper – which I think was the first truly big challenge to the power structure of TWI - was merely the tipping point in many folks’ minds - finally deciding to actually leave TWI…
…while at the same time you had most of the faithful followers down at the local fellowship level scratching their heads wondering what the hell was going on – “how come all these corps people tripped out?”; corps were like a buffer zone, that insulated the lower levels from a lot of those life-sucking machinations…often softening any “mandates” issued from HQ, being a good sales rep for whatever HQ was “selling”, absorbing the costs (time and resources) of keeping classes and events operational and generally doing this with a good attitude because we thought we were serving God and the one true ministry…yeah, just sucking it up in the daily grind as long as that feel-good-pablum gets doled out to the masses and they keep that money rolling in to HQ.
...so anyway...if you happen to get more involved with them let me know of your experience.
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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Taxidev
I didn't say he was an example for me. I said he did a good teaching on what likeminded actually is, as opposed to what TWI propounded it to be.
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Taxidev
I think it would have been helpful to all of us out there if something had been communicated. The BOD certainly wasn't going to do it, so we were left to our imaginations every time.
Don't hold your breath.
From what I've learned here about the lot of them, I may just remain at arm's length, and just enjoy my local fellowship, and maybe get involved in some community aid program here in my area. I know I have my own ministry, as do all of us, and I don't need anyone to give me direction on that - I get that from God. And there are more than enough resources that if I have a question about scripture, I'm positive I can get it clarified.
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