The people I'm with locally aren't the originators of R&R. They homeowner is former way corps, but only having been a branch coordinator. And he is the most loving and loved branch coordinator I've ever met, aside from one other.
You have the wrong impression of what I wrote. I was referring to my belief, when you said "And, if you believe that, I’ve got a White House to sell ya!" They aren't trying to convince me of anything, I can see what is happening. You, however, cannot, and have jumped to conclusions regarding my local group.
The group I'm with have no criminal behavior to repent of, unless you consider receiving the tithes to be criminal. I said I can't speak for what is happening with the original group, I can only speak for the local group I am with. And they are wonderful. They have been wonderful for as long as I've known them, which is since 2010. They have never been on staff, and have been branch coordinators since their first assignment. You may have reason to criticize the originators of R&R, but you are way off base criticizing these people.
Taxi, the bottom line is this: if you are happy fellowshiping with the people you fellowship with, great!! Good for you!! However, you seem like a very young person to me. Many of us older people, attended Twigs, run by TWI. Many, many people were badly, f--ked by the organization. I think people here at the GSC, are trying to warn you to be careful about R&R, because they know what such groups are capable of. Forty years ago, if many of us had known how corrupt TWI was, we would never have gotten involved with them. So fellowship with whomever you wish, but please be forewarned that R&R could be another evil cult.
So fellowship with whomever you wish, but please be forewarned that R&R could be another evil cult.
I appreciate the concern, from all who have that concern for me.
No, I am not so young, I just was never as heavily involved as many of you were. Since I was 22 years old, I have been committed to understanding and living God's Word. I try to learn from many sources, and always have. What I liked most about TWI was the teachings from my fellowship coordinators and others in my local fellowship. Yes, I took all the classes, multiple times, and I picked up on the Way slant in some of the segments. At one point the bloated egotism of LCM spewed right out from the screen, and I was just flabbergasted. It wasn't long after that when he "stepped down" for his sexual antics. In 2004 I did the Way Disciple program, which I found to be not such a great time.
Over the last 10 years my connection to TWI has gradually weakened until, about 4 years ago, I wouldn't even invite anyone to my fellowship. Three years ago I was becoming really disappointed with the STS from Ohio, and wouldn't go to the hookups anymore. Right around the time R&R was setting up their facebook activity, I was already considering no longer attending TWI fellowship. I was looking elsewhere for biblical teachings with some meat to them. Last month I ended my association, weak as it was, with TWI.
Through this whole thing, I have been committed to no individual, nor to the leadership. I have asked many questions that went inadequately answered and, just when I was considering sending my question to the BOD, I was introduced to R&R. It was then that I realized the futility of sending in my concerns and questions. My friend here, during the building of momentum of R&R, did connect with them, but his view of many things they had brought up was substantially different. He and I had many in depth discussions of very specific topics in the Word, and I consider his view of the ekklesia to be considerably more advanced than what the R&R group has discussed publicly.
I have always maintained an arms length approach to religious organizations, but I have enjoyed some great times with some wonderful individuals.
That's a good recap, DWBH, thank you. So much of what I've seen as well as heard from others says that the Moneyhands are a very damaged couple who are not interested in helping much less "restoring" anyone unless it serves their own purposes.
Taxiperson, you're on the right track. Remember, in the "old" days everyone used to say that The Way was....Jesus Christ, and that we were followers of the Way, of Jesus Christ, not people.
That has a practical application and requires you and I actually do it, and understand that Jesus Christ was and IS the Living Logos, and it is through that Word that we understand and have a perspective of God. God magnified "His Word" above His own name, which puts the Living Word as the thing that we must live to see and follow.
Men and women will always want you to follow THEM, as an aid, a means to better do that....their "ministries", so called, if given by God are in SERVICE to God's people and will always magnify Jesus Christ, making His Way clearer. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word, indeed....and it's that "faith of Jesus Christ" which is complete and full and all that we need to rely on and identify with.
Yes, thank God we have a written record to read and learn from - but we must always remember that the Way of Christ is straight, simple and easily intreated, not burdensome though we may choose to bear the burdens of others as Christ has our own - it's loving, forgiving and only requires that we subject ourselves to God's forgiveness, knowing that we need it - we need the broken ends of our lives brought that together and "restored" - so we can live for God.
The Way was so subtle replacing the simplicity in Christ with the complexities of it's own religion, born out of The Way Corps program which ultimately drilled down into every fellowship The Way held for many years. Ultimately in order to be true to God, each person that came out of the Corps program had to divest it'self from the authority of The Way in order to make any use of what they'd learned.
I for one did learn a great deal and I do not understate the value of the experiences I had, including of course the mistakes I myself made and those of others that affected me. It's far outweighed by what I gained. This in no way values bad over good, error over truth or ungodliness over true faith. However everything I am today is the sum total of what I have been and done up to this point, and it will never be the perfection that God promises through eternal life wholness, in Christ. Still I persist! There's really nothing else to do but that.
Don'tWorryBeHappy said : "They both returned to Greenville, where Marcia finished her degree and Steve got run off for being gay."
"As Col. Louis said to Rick at the end of Casablanca, that was the beginning of a “beautiful friendship” which continues to this very day! Think about the kind of relationship Rosie and Donna have shared and add a third wheel, and you’ll get the picture."
DWBH, I'm a little confused. They kicked out a guy for being gay but a lesbian ends up running the show?
Don'tWorryBeHappy said : "They both returned to Greenville, where Marcia finished her degree and Steve got run off for being gay."
"As Col. Louis said to Rick at the end of Casablanca, that was the beginning of a “beautiful friendship” which continues to this very day! Think about the kind of relationship Rosie and Donna have shared and add a third wheel, and you’ll get the picture."
DWBH, I'm a little confused. They kicked out a guy for being gay but a lesbian ends up running the show?
That would be a great thing to inquire about at Way HQ.
"Alleged" lesbian runs the show. Alleged by eyewitnesses. According to some people, vpw never hurt anyone because he was only "alleged" to hurt people and was never formally charged with any crime, only "alleged" to have done so by victims and eyewitnesses. Also, don't forget "the golden rule"- he who has the gold makes the rules. Question rfr and be kicked out and have your reputation ruined.
Then again, with all the misinformation twi throws around when kicking people out, that guy might have been straight. When lcm sat on the throne, everybody who questioned him or even failed to give 100% loyalty was kicked out for being "a homo", "a homo sympathizer", or just due to "genuine spiritual suspicion." (As God is my witness, those were HIS terms and I made up none of them.)
Truth is indeed stranger than fiction, Info! The evolution from hetero to bisexuality and homosexuality was gradual, imho. Before entering the 4th corpse, Donna M. (henceforth Belladonna) was a staff secretary for a year at HQ. At that time, Donna Randall served as both Research Secretary, and Secretary to the president, and Rhoda Wierwille was still dictor’s “Personal Secretary”. Donna, was in the secretarial “pool” which was coordinated by Donna Randall and dictor himself. Claudette Royal was also in that Secretarial pool at HQ prior to her entering the 4th corpse with the rest of us in July, 1973.
Donna had been sexually active with dictor during that year she was on staff prior to her in-Rez career. Donna was also sexually active with dictor during a trip of his to NC during our interim year in NC. Rosie was also quite active sexually with various in-Rez corpse men from early on in her corpse career as well, including turns with dictor and Donnie. I have no personal knowledge of Marcia Faulk’s personal sexual preferences during that time.
Remember, all the women I mentioned were single, unmarried, and therefore, in dictor’s perverted mind, “property of the King” as dictor said they were in the Old T., referring to Saul, David, Solomon and then the long line of the Kings of Judah and Benjamin in the south and the Kings of the 10 northern tribes, united under the name Israel. Which, when critically examined put EVERY king of Israel in the immediate and untenable position of breaking 3 or 4 of the 10 Commandments (most notably, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”, and, “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”) including, in most cases, Thou shalt not lie, and Thou shalt not commit murder! That meant if dic’s “rightly-dividing” was indeed right, every king of Israel should have been put to death!
This kind of promiscuity by Belladonna and Rosie continued, and Belladonna eventually married da forehead, and Rosie kept using her charms in all the right spaces, which unfortunately, included a bunch of married men in prominent “leadership” positions at HQ. Faulk (5th corpse) married Bill Greene (8th corpse) and bounced around various jobs at HQ mostly being an attachment-at-the-hip to Belladonna, as she was in Greenville, NC, 1974.
The breakthrough into lesbianism between Belladonna and Rosie progressed during the insane years 1981-1986. Dic had made his choice of successor, da forehead, then the insanity of the Outreach Weeks, 40th Anniversary Weekend in every Region, culminating in Living Victoriously, June 1982, corpse week and ROA, August 1982, and the biggy....The 40th Anniversary Celebration Weekend, during which dic officially retired and “passed the mantle” to King Okie. Rosie was the co-coordinator of these events along with Bob Winegarner, and myself and the Region Coordinators for the events “on da field”. So, Rosie and Belladonna (now the future “First Lady”!) were spending more and more time together and, apparently were spotted a number of times being physically intimate with one another. Their relationship became more intense and obvious after the implosion of POOP’n’Geer, and the following “Fog Years” of 1986-1990. The incredible Bacchus-orgy type of culture da forehead built during his spirits in the athlete mania contributed powerfully to Belladonna’s physical rejection of her “king” into the eager arms of Rosie the Riveter.
The TWIt reign of terror commenced in 1990 and ran all the way through 2000, when da forehead finally forced his own dismissal, and was banished to Toledo, divorced by Belladonna and Rosie, with great joy I’m sure. During that time, the Greene’s were big shots behind the walls of Zion and the troika of Greenville was reborn, providing the comfort of old time friendship and the sedation of nostalgia for las tres amigas. Remember also, that during Okie’s reign of terror, the misogyny and its accompanying widespread sexual abuse and promiscuity were running rampant in NK at every level of their stratified cult society and in every age group! It was the Sodom and Gomrroah of the “Grace Administration” in the time of the prevailing word! What a cruel and horrific “Christian” tragedy.
Truth is indeed stranger than fiction, Info! The evolution from hetero to bisexuality and homosexuality was gradual, imho. Before entering the 4th corpse, Donna M. (henceforth Belladonna) was a staff secretary for a year at HQ. At that time, Donna Randall served as both Research Secretary, and Secretary to the president, and Rhoda Wierwille was still dictor’s “Personal Secretary”. Donna, was in the secretarial “pool” which was coordinated by Donna Randall and dictor himself. Claudette Royal was also in that Secretarial pool at HQ prior to her entering the 4th corpse with the rest of us in July, 1973.
Donna had been sexually active with dictor during that year she was on staff prior to her in-Rez career. Donna was also sexually active with dictor during a trip of his to NC during our interim year in NC. Rosie was also quite active sexually with various in-Rez corpse men from early on in her corpse career as well, including turns with dictor and Donnie. I have no personal knowledge of Marcia Faulk’s personal sexual preferences during that time.
Remember, all the women I mentioned were single, unmarried, and therefore, in dictor’s perverted mind, “property of the King” as dictor said they were in the Old T., referring to Saul, David, Solomon and then the long line of the Kings of Judah and Benjamin in the south and the Kings of the 10 northern tribes, united under the name Israel. Which, when critically examined put EVERY king of Israel in the immediate and untenable position of breaking 3 or 4 of the 10 Commandments (most notably, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”, and, “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”) including, in most cases, Thou shalt not lie, and Thou shalt not commit murder! That meant if dic’s “rightly-dividing” was indeed right, every king of Israel should have been put to death!
This kind of promiscuity by Belladonna and Rosie continued, and Belladonna eventually married da forehead, and Rosie kept using her charms in all the right spaces, which unfortunately, included a bunch of married men in prominent “leadership” positions at HQ. Faulk (5th corpse) married Bill Greene (8th corpse) and bounced around various jobs at HQ mostly being an attachment-at-the-hip to Belladonna, as she was in Greenville, NC, 1974.
The breakthrough into lesbianism between Belladonna and Rosie progressed during the insane years 1981-1986. Dic had made his choice of successor, da forehead, then the insanity of the Outreach Weeks, 40th Anniversary Weekend in every Region, culminating in Living Victoriously, June 1982, corpse week and ROA, August 1982, and the biggy....The 40th Anniversary Celebration Weekend, during which dic officially retired and “passed the mantle” to King Okie. Rosie was the co-coordinator of these events along with Bob Winegarner, and myself and the Region Coordinators for the events “on da field”. So, Rosie and Belladonna (now the future “First Lady”!) were spending more and more time together and, apparently were spotted a number of times being physically intimate with one another. Their relationship became more intense and obvious after the implosion of POOP’n’Geer, and the following “Fog Years” of 1986-1990. The incredible Bacchus-orgy type of culture da forehead built during his spirits in the athlete mania contributed powerfully to Belladonna’s physical rejection of her “king” into the eager arms of Rosie the Riveter.
The TWIt reign of terror commenced in 1990 and ran all the way through 2000, when da forehead finally forced his own dismissal, and was banished to Toledo, divorced by Belladonna and Rosie, with great joy I’m sure. During that time, the Greene’s were big shots behind the walls of Zion and the troika of Greenville was reborn, providing the comfort of old time friendship and the sedation of nostalgia for las tres amigas. Remember also, that during Okie’s reign of terror, the misogyny and its accompanying widespread sexual abuse and promiscuity were running rampant in NK at every level of their stratified cult society and in every age group! It was the Sodom and Gomrroah of the “Grace Administration” in the time of the prevailing word! What a cruel and horrific “Christian” tragedy.
DWBH, OMG!! How do Donna, and Rosie sleep at night, knowing what they did decades ago??!! Reading this upsets me; if I had known all this Dreck decades ago, I would have left TWI a lot sooner than I did.
DWBH, OMG!! How do Donna, and Rosie sleep at night, knowing what they did decades ago??!! Reading this upsets me; if I had known all this Dreck decades ago, I would have left TWI a lot sooner than I did.
"What is my conscience? It's a three-cornered thing in my chest. When I do wrong, it spins, and the points hurt me. But if I keep doing wrong, the points wear down and they don't hurt anymore."
DWBH, OMG!! How do Donna, and Rosie sleep at night, knowing what they did decades ago??!! Reading this upsets me; if I had known all this Dreck decades ago, I would have left TWI a lot sooner than I did.
DWBH, OMG!! How do Donna, and Rosie sleep at night, knowing what they did decades ago??!! Reading this upsets me; if I had known all this Dreck decades ago, I would have left TWI a lot sooner than I did.
Me too. Grace your post inspired me to start a thread on white-wash.
On 5/9/2018 at 5:58 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:
DWBH, OMG!! How do Donna, and Rosie sleep at night, knowing what they did decades ago??!! Reading this upsets me; if I had known all this Dreck decades ago, I would have left TWI a lot sooner than I did.
Speaking of Refesteration and Revilery, here's a question fer y'all...lemme see if I can make this make sense...I was thinking about it after reading that one of the principles of the STFI/Truth of Tradition ministry had left and was teaching something radically different than what the group teaches.
It made me wonder - would those who leave that group refer back to their roots and the points at which they left the herd by name and by date, for instance using the name of John Schoenheit or John Lynn or whomever....since they're branching off from a group that built their doctrinal platform by the hands of a few people, it would make sense if they did. It might also make sense for them to reach even further back or for that matter, to skip people altogether and just start from "scratch" so to speak, from "The Word" and not what their previous founders and bible-pounders taught. Or from some other point of reference that they consider important.
Likewise, today there are groups, ministries, fellowships and otherswho are carrying forth the teachings of Dr. Wiewille, by name, both in part and whole. Refaced PFAL classes, reworked teachings and books, in whatever form, some people openly favor all or some part of "what they were taught" and are willing and ready to keep the candle burning for "What Doctor Taught"....
But - I never hear of anyone referencing or building their platform from what Craig Martindale taught - and he redid the Way's "Foundational" series class....yet there seems to be a vast void of anyone who references him directly as "What Rev. Martindale Taught" or as a way of calling the fold together around something he taught in the past....it seems no one sees a point of his involvement as a milestone date or event in a positive way.
And I could see why - I personally can't think of anything he did or said that's worth remembering, other than some personal communications I might have had with him, but nothing on a deeper scale. I was only involved for a short few years after he took over but others were on board with him for many years....
So is that correct - did LCM's legacy amount to "0" for EVERYone, whether they continue to maintain some, all or any part of what they were taught by The Way....?
Your responses are welcome.
Edited by socks Space...the final frontier....these are the voyages of th-
A) People with personal experience of lcm remember him as abrasive, domineering and foul-mouthed. Parents said their kids learned to curse from mandatory exposure to his tirades. Some of them were kicked out by him, and others got fed up and left because of him.
B) The chicks in charge of twi (we need a nickname for the 3 chicks running the show now) painted lcm as the big villain when he was in, and made it look like their hands were clean, no matter how complicit they were in everything. He was set up to take the blame for everything THEY did as well as everything HE did.
C) Leaders who were around dealing with lcm found him difficult to deal with at best, and abrasive and domineering at worst. None of them had positive memories of him overall. Even when he was "at his best", he insisted on pushing his way into the spotlight and making sure his capricious whims were followed no matter how impractical that was.
D) vpw knew to turn on the charm and fake being a nice guy. vpw knew to fake liking the leaders so long as he got his own way with them. vpw was older and had the mystique he constructed, that he was on another level than the leaders that he dealt with (for the most part; a few never quite bought into it- hi, Ralph!)
E) People who have fantasies that twi was nearly perfect when they were young and naive credit vpw for the idyllic paradise of their fantasies- and need a villain to explain what went wrong. In their case, they blame lcm for freaking EVERYTHING.
F) lcm lacks academic credentials, and the skill to plagiarize the way vpw did. So, he has nothing of his own to bring to the table. He presented his own versions of vpw's stuff, but in his urge to be different, he managed to construct inferior material to graft on, and it showed. So, the old stuff is seen a superior to the lcm stuff.
So, in short, at best, lcm is the designated villain, and at worst, the plague that adulterated vpw's stuff and ruined what was good to begin with. So, lcm counts as zero when he doesn't count as a negative number.
Threads about lcm and nobody lining up to make an lcm ministry:
"I'm somewhat surprised..." "Does the way lidership that was loyal to lcm form their own splinter groups after they leave?" "PFAL vs WayAP- Comparing Foundational Classes" "Why hasn't Loy started his own splinter group?"
A) People with personal experience of lcm remember him as abrasive, domineering and foul-mouthed. Parents said their kids learned to curse from mandatory exposure to his tirades. Some of them were kicked out by him, and others got fed up and left because of him.
B) The chicks in charge of twi (we need a nickname for the 3 chicks running the show now) painted lcm as the big villain when he was in, and made it look like their hands were clean, no matter how complicit they were in everything. He was set up to take the blame for everything THEY did as well as everything HE did.
C) Leaders who were around dealing with lcm found him difficult to deal with at best, and abrasive and domineering at worst. None of them had positive memories of him overall. Even when he was "at his best", he insisted on pushing his way into the spotlight and making sure his capricious whims were followed no matter how impractical that was.
D) vpw knew to turn on the charm and fake being a nice guy. vpw knew to fake liking the leaders so long as he got his own way with them. vpw was older and had the mystique he constructed, that he was on another level than the leaders that he dealt with (for the most part; a few never quite bought into it- hi, Ralph!)
E) People who have fantasies that twi was nearly perfect when they were young and naive credit vpw for the idyllic paradise of their fantasies- and need a villain to explain what went wrong. In their case, they blame lcm for freaking EVERYTHING.
F) lcm lacks academic credentials, and the skill to plagiarize the way vpw did. So, he has nothing of his own to bring to the table. He presented his own versions of vpw's stuff, but in his urge to be different, he managed to construct inferior material to graft on, and it showed. So, the old stuff is seen a superior to the lcm stuff.
So, in short, at best, lcm is the designated villain, and at worst, the plague that adulterated vpw's stuff and ruined what was good to begin with. So, lcm counts as zero when he doesn't count as a negative number.
I agree wholeheartedly with the essence of your post. However, I believe that you may have softened LCM's persona with your euphemistic description of him as "abrasive, domineering and foul-mouthed." I believe you left out "extremely emotionally and sexually abusive."
A) People with personal experience of lcm remember him as abrasive, domineering and foul-mouthed. Parents said their kids learned to curse from mandatory exposure to his tirades. Some of them were kicked out by him, and others got fed up and left because of him.
B) The chicks in charge of twi (we need a nickname for the 3 chicks running the show now) painted lcm as the big villain when he was in, and made it look like their hands were clean, no matter how complicit they were in everything. He was set up to take the blame for everything THEY did as well as everything HE did.
C) Leaders who were around dealing with lcm found him difficult to deal with at best, and abrasive and domineering at worst. None of them had positive memories of him overall. Even when he was "at his best", he insisted on pushing his way into the spotlight and making sure his capricious whims were followed no matter how impractical that was.
D) vpw knew to turn on the charm and fake being a nice guy. vpw knew to fake liking the leaders so long as he got his own way with them. vpw was older and had the mystique he constructed, that he was on another level than the leaders that he dealt with (for the most part; a few never quite bought into it- hi, Ralph!)
E) People who have fantasies that twi was nearly perfect when they were young and naive credit vpw for the idyllic paradise of their fantasies- and need a villain to explain what went wrong. In their case, they blame lcm for freaking EVERYTHING.
F) lcm lacks academic credentials, and the skill to plagiarize the way vpw did. So, he has nothing of his own to bring to the table. He presented his own versions of vpw's stuff, but in his urge to be different, he managed to construct inferior material to graft on, and it showed. So, the old stuff is seen a superior to the lcm stuff.
So, in short, at best, lcm is the designated villain, and at worst, the plague that adulterated vpw's stuff and ruined what was good to begin with. So, lcm counts as zero when he doesn't count as a negative number.
F) lcm lacks academic credentials, and the skill to plagiarize the way vpw did. So, he has nothing of his own to bring to the table. He presented his own versions of vpw's stuff, but in his urge to be different, he managed to construct inferior material to graft on, and it showed. So, the old stuff is seen a superior to the lcm stuff.
But then............so did wierwille. He lacked academic credentials AND his "putting it all together" had lots of holes in it.
It is a lot easier to fool a 19 year old........than a 36 year old. By then, many of us had serious doubts about wierwille's spiel.....and, even if we stuck around, it had more to do with relationships, indoctrination and habit patterns than *believing* that wierwille was incredibly gifted.
Gawd, I had doubts about wierwille's shtick when I was in-residence corps in 1978.
But then............so did wierwille. He lacked academic credentials AND his "putting it all together" had lots of holes in it.
It is a lot easier to fool a 19 year old........than a 36 year old. By then, many of us had serious doubts about wierwille's spiel.....and, even if we stuck around, it had more to do with relationships, indoctrination and habit patterns than *believing* that wierwille was incredibly gifted.
Gawd, I had doubts about wierwille's shtick when I was in-residence corps in 1978.
But VPW at least attended denominational institutions for academic classes. LCM never did attend denominational colleges, universities, seminaries, divinity schools, although we haven't seen Weird willie's report cards/grades from Lakeland/Mission House nor Princeton University/ Seminary because said institutions are ashamed to release material.
LCM certainly had a greater influence here than VPW did. VPW is some dead guy who couldn't write or even plagiarize in plain english. That is all.
VPW had the spirit of the 60s he could fashion and mold easily, as far as I understand. People were begging for "leaders" like him. LCM, had memories of some dead guy, and a bunch of people with nowhere else to go.
The Princeton Theological Seminary is in no way affiliated with Princeton University, the Ivy League powerhouse. It was established as a Presbyterian Seminary under the auspices of The Rev. Dr. Archibald Alexander, The General Assembly of The Presbyterian Church, and the College of New Jersey, in 1812, making it the second oldest seminary in the USA. Dic earned himself a Masters of Divinity degree as far as I know. I’ve never seen the sheepskin so who knows for sure. The tie-in to Princeton University was an illicit attempt by dic to “upgrade” the value of his degree. Unnecessary imo, since the Princeton Theological Seminary, which by the way, is still in existence, is quite well-known on it’s own, being the second oldest Seminary in the US. Paranoid narcissicism has no bounds and no end at attempted self-aggrandizement.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi All! Well....I actually finished forcing myself to listen to those lying, sanctimonious, self-deluded fools. I could only take it in 8-10 minute segments, once a day. I felt as if I was watchi
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I'm not even going to bother listening/watching to the R&R presentations you all are talking about. I remember when we got the boot writing a four-page letter explaining our situation to the Rever
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I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse. I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi, the bottom line is this: if you are happy fellowshiping with the people you fellowship with, great!! Good for you!! However, you seem like a very young person to me. Many of us older people, attended Twigs, run by TWI. Many, many people were badly, f--ked by the organization. I think people here at the GSC, are trying to warn you to be careful about R&R, because they know what such groups are capable of. Forty years ago, if many of us had known how corrupt TWI was, we would never have gotten involved with them. So fellowship with whomever you wish, but please be forewarned that R&R could be another evil cult.
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Taxidev
I appreciate the concern, from all who have that concern for me.
No, I am not so young, I just was never as heavily involved as many of you were. Since I was 22 years old, I have been committed to understanding and living God's Word. I try to learn from many sources, and always have. What I liked most about TWI was the teachings from my fellowship coordinators and others in my local fellowship. Yes, I took all the classes, multiple times, and I picked up on the Way slant in some of the segments. At one point the bloated egotism of LCM spewed right out from the screen, and I was just flabbergasted. It wasn't long after that when he "stepped down" for his sexual antics. In 2004 I did the Way Disciple program, which I found to be not such a great time.
Over the last 10 years my connection to TWI has gradually weakened until, about 4 years ago, I wouldn't even invite anyone to my fellowship. Three years ago I was becoming really disappointed with the STS from Ohio, and wouldn't go to the hookups anymore. Right around the time R&R was setting up their facebook activity, I was already considering no longer attending TWI fellowship. I was looking elsewhere for biblical teachings with some meat to them. Last month I ended my association, weak as it was, with TWI.
Through this whole thing, I have been committed to no individual, nor to the leadership. I have asked many questions that went inadequately answered and, just when I was considering sending my question to the BOD, I was introduced to R&R. It was then that I realized the futility of sending in my concerns and questions. My friend here, during the building of momentum of R&R, did connect with them, but his view of many things they had brought up was substantially different. He and I had many in depth discussions of very specific topics in the Word, and I consider his view of the ekklesia to be considerably more advanced than what the R&R group has discussed publicly.
I have always maintained an arms length approach to religious organizations, but I have enjoyed some great times with some wonderful individuals.
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socks
That's a good recap, DWBH, thank you. So much of what I've seen as well as heard from others says that the Moneyhands are a very damaged couple who are not interested in helping much less "restoring" anyone unless it serves their own purposes.
Taxiperson, you're on the right track. Remember, in the "old" days everyone used to say that The Way was....Jesus Christ, and that we were followers of the Way, of Jesus Christ, not people.
That has a practical application and requires you and I actually do it, and understand that Jesus Christ was and IS the Living Logos, and it is through that Word that we understand and have a perspective of God. God magnified "His Word" above His own name, which puts the Living Word as the thing that we must live to see and follow.
Men and women will always want you to follow THEM, as an aid, a means to better do that....their "ministries", so called, if given by God are in SERVICE to God's people and will always magnify Jesus Christ, making His Way clearer. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word, indeed....and it's that "faith of Jesus Christ" which is complete and full and all that we need to rely on and identify with.
Yes, thank God we have a written record to read and learn from - but we must always remember that the Way of Christ is straight, simple and easily intreated, not burdensome though we may choose to bear the burdens of others as Christ has our own - it's loving, forgiving and only requires that we subject ourselves to God's forgiveness, knowing that we need it - we need the broken ends of our lives brought that together and "restored" - so we can live for God.
The Way was so subtle replacing the simplicity in Christ with the complexities of it's own religion, born out of The Way Corps program which ultimately drilled down into every fellowship The Way held for many years. Ultimately in order to be true to God, each person that came out of the Corps program had to divest it'self from the authority of The Way in order to make any use of what they'd learned.
I for one did learn a great deal and I do not understate the value of the experiences I had, including of course the mistakes I myself made and those of others that affected me. It's far outweighed by what I gained. This in no way values bad over good, error over truth or ungodliness over true faith. However everything I am today is the sum total of what I have been and done up to this point, and it will never be the perfection that God promises through eternal life wholness, in Christ. Still I persist! There's really nothing else to do but that.
PEACE!!
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Infoabsorption
Don'tWorryBeHappy said : "They both returned to Greenville, where Marcia finished her degree and Steve got run off for being gay."
"As Col. Louis said to Rick at the end of Casablanca, that was the beginning of a “beautiful friendship” which continues to this very day! Think about the kind of relationship Rosie and Donna have shared and add a third wheel, and you’ll get the picture."
DWBH, I'm a little confused. They kicked out a guy for being gay but a lesbian ends up running the show?
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Rocky
That would be a great thing to inquire about at Way HQ.
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WordWolf
"Alleged" lesbian runs the show. Alleged by eyewitnesses. According to some people, vpw never hurt anyone because he was only "alleged" to hurt people and was never formally charged with any crime, only "alleged" to have done so by victims and eyewitnesses. Also, don't forget "the golden rule"- he who has the gold makes the rules. Question rfr and be kicked out and have your reputation ruined.
Then again, with all the misinformation twi throws around when kicking people out, that guy might have been straight. When lcm sat on the throne, everybody who questioned him or even failed to give 100% loyalty was kicked out for being "a homo", "a homo sympathizer", or just due to "genuine spiritual suspicion." (As God is my witness, those were HIS terms and I made up none of them.)
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Taxidev
I never heard about this until fairly recently. What a s#@tshow!
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DontWorryBeHappy
Truth is indeed stranger than fiction, Info! The evolution from hetero to bisexuality and homosexuality was gradual, imho. Before entering the 4th corpse, Donna M. (henceforth Belladonna) was a staff secretary for a year at HQ. At that time, Donna Randall served as both Research Secretary, and Secretary to the president, and Rhoda Wierwille was still dictor’s “Personal Secretary”. Donna, was in the secretarial “pool” which was coordinated by Donna Randall and dictor himself. Claudette Royal was also in that Secretarial pool at HQ prior to her entering the 4th corpse with the rest of us in July, 1973.
Donna had been sexually active with dictor during that year she was on staff prior to her in-Rez career. Donna was also sexually active with dictor during a trip of his to NC during our interim year in NC. Rosie was also quite active sexually with various in-Rez corpse men from early on in her corpse career as well, including turns with dictor and Donnie. I have no personal knowledge of Marcia Faulk’s personal sexual preferences during that time.
Remember, all the women I mentioned were single, unmarried, and therefore, in dictor’s perverted mind, “property of the King” as dictor said they were in the Old T., referring to Saul, David, Solomon and then the long line of the Kings of Judah and Benjamin in the south and the Kings of the 10 northern tribes, united under the name Israel. Which, when critically examined put EVERY king of Israel in the immediate and untenable position of breaking 3 or 4 of the 10 Commandments (most notably, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”, and, “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”) including, in most cases, Thou shalt not lie, and Thou shalt not commit murder! That meant if dic’s “rightly-dividing” was indeed right, every king of Israel should have been put to death!
This kind of promiscuity by Belladonna and Rosie continued, and Belladonna eventually married da forehead, and Rosie kept using her charms in all the right spaces, which unfortunately, included a bunch of married men in prominent “leadership” positions at HQ. Faulk (5th corpse) married Bill Greene (8th corpse) and bounced around various jobs at HQ mostly being an attachment-at-the-hip to Belladonna, as she was in Greenville, NC, 1974.
The breakthrough into lesbianism between Belladonna and Rosie progressed during the insane years 1981-1986. Dic had made his choice of successor, da forehead, then the insanity of the Outreach Weeks, 40th Anniversary Weekend in every Region, culminating in Living Victoriously, June 1982, corpse week and ROA, August 1982, and the biggy....The 40th Anniversary Celebration Weekend, during which dic officially retired and “passed the mantle” to King Okie. Rosie was the co-coordinator of these events along with Bob Winegarner, and myself and the Region Coordinators for the events “on da field”. So, Rosie and Belladonna (now the future “First Lady”!) were spending more and more time together and, apparently were spotted a number of times being physically intimate with one another. Their relationship became more intense and obvious after the implosion of POOP’n’Geer, and the following “Fog Years” of 1986-1990. The incredible Bacchus-orgy type of culture da forehead built during his spirits in the athlete mania contributed powerfully to Belladonna’s physical rejection of her “king” into the eager arms of Rosie the Riveter.
The TWIt reign of terror commenced in 1990 and ran all the way through 2000, when da forehead finally forced his own dismissal, and was banished to Toledo, divorced by Belladonna and Rosie, with great joy I’m sure. During that time, the Greene’s were big shots behind the walls of Zion and the troika of Greenville was reborn, providing the comfort of old time friendship and the sedation of nostalgia for las tres amigas. Remember also, that during Okie’s reign of terror, the misogyny and its accompanying widespread sexual abuse and promiscuity were running rampant in NK at every level of their stratified cult society and in every age group! It was the Sodom and Gomrroah of the “Grace Administration” in the time of the prevailing word! What a cruel and horrific “Christian” tragedy.
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, OMG!! How do Donna, and Rosie sleep at night, knowing what they did decades ago??!! Reading this upsets me; if I had known all this Dreck decades ago, I would have left TWI a lot sooner than I did.
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WordWolf
"What is my conscience? It's a three-cornered thing in my chest. When I do wrong, it spins, and the points hurt me. But if I keep doing wrong, the points wear down and they don't hurt anymore."
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Rocky
Da-Nile ain't just a river in Egypt.
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chockfull
Me too. Grace your post inspired me to start a thread on white-wash.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock,
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Together in bed, not giving a damn about it
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socks
Speaking of Refesteration and Revilery, here's a question fer y'all...lemme see if I can make this make sense...I was thinking about it after reading that one of the principles of the STFI/Truth of Tradition ministry had left and was teaching something radically different than what the group teaches.
It made me wonder - would those who leave that group refer back to their roots and the points at which they left the herd by name and by date, for instance using the name of John Schoenheit or John Lynn or whomever....since they're branching off from a group that built their doctrinal platform by the hands of a few people, it would make sense if they did. It might also make sense for them to reach even further back or for that matter, to skip people altogether and just start from "scratch" so to speak, from "The Word" and not what their previous founders and bible-pounders taught. Or from some other point of reference that they consider important.
Likewise, today there are groups, ministries, fellowships and otherswho are carrying forth the teachings of Dr. Wiewille, by name, both in part and whole. Refaced PFAL classes, reworked teachings and books, in whatever form, some people openly favor all or some part of "what they were taught" and are willing and ready to keep the candle burning for "What Doctor Taught"....
But - I never hear of anyone referencing or building their platform from what Craig Martindale taught - and he redid the Way's "Foundational" series class....yet there seems to be a vast void of anyone who references him directly as "What Rev. Martindale Taught" or as a way of calling the fold together around something he taught in the past....it seems no one sees a point of his involvement as a milestone date or event in a positive way.
And I could see why - I personally can't think of anything he did or said that's worth remembering, other than some personal communications I might have had with him, but nothing on a deeper scale. I was only involved for a short few years after he took over but others were on board with him for many years....
So is that correct - did LCM's legacy amount to "0" for EVERYone, whether they continue to maintain some, all or any part of what they were taught by The Way....?
Edited by socksYour responses are welcome.
Space...the final frontier....these are the voyages of th-
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WordWolf
Are you kidding?
A) People with personal experience of lcm remember him as abrasive, domineering and foul-mouthed. Parents said their kids learned to curse from mandatory exposure to his tirades. Some of them were kicked out by him, and others got fed up and left because of him.
B) The chicks in charge of twi (we need a nickname for the 3 chicks running the show now) painted lcm as the big villain when he was in, and made it look like their hands were clean, no matter how complicit they were in everything. He was set up to take the blame for everything THEY did as well as everything HE did.
C) Leaders who were around dealing with lcm found him difficult to deal with at best, and abrasive and domineering at worst. None of them had positive memories of him overall. Even when he was "at his best", he insisted on pushing his way into the spotlight and making sure his capricious whims were followed no matter how impractical that was.
D) vpw knew to turn on the charm and fake being a nice guy. vpw knew to fake liking the leaders so long as he got his own way with them. vpw was older and had the mystique he constructed, that he was on another level than the leaders that he dealt with (for the most part; a few never quite bought into it- hi, Ralph!)
E) People who have fantasies that twi was nearly perfect when they were young and naive credit vpw for the idyllic paradise of their fantasies- and need a villain to explain what went wrong. In their case, they blame lcm for freaking EVERYTHING.
F) lcm lacks academic credentials, and the skill to plagiarize the way vpw did. So, he has nothing of his own to bring to the table. He presented his own versions of vpw's stuff, but in his urge to be different, he managed to construct inferior material to graft on, and it showed. So, the old stuff is seen a superior to the lcm stuff.
So, in short, at best, lcm is the designated villain, and at worst, the plague that adulterated vpw's stuff and ruined what was good to begin with. So, lcm counts as zero when he doesn't count as a negative number.
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WordWolf
Threads about lcm and nobody lining up to make an lcm ministry:
"I'm somewhat surprised..." "Does the way lidership that was loyal to lcm form their own splinter groups after they leave?" "PFAL vs WayAP- Comparing Foundational Classes" "Why hasn't Loy started his own splinter group?"
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/21658-im-somewhat-surprised/
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/19281-does-the-way-lidership-that-was-loyal-to-lcm-form-their-own-splinter-groups-afther-they-leave/
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/6425-pfal-vs-wayap-comparing-foundational-classes/
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4649-why-hasnt-loy-started-his-own-splinter-group/
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Rocky
I agree wholeheartedly with the essence of your post. However, I believe that you may have softened LCM's persona with your euphemistic description of him as "abrasive, domineering and foul-mouthed." I believe you left out "extremely emotionally and sexually abusive."
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW,
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skyrider
But then............so did wierwille. He lacked academic credentials AND his "putting it all together" had lots of holes in it.
It is a lot easier to fool a 19 year old........than a 36 year old. By then, many of us had serious doubts about wierwille's spiel.....and, even if we stuck around, it had more to do with relationships, indoctrination and habit patterns than *believing* that wierwille was incredibly gifted.
Gawd, I had doubts about wierwille's shtick when I was in-residence corps in 1978.
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T-Bone
I think LCM didn’t have whatever finesse wierwille had to charm and manipulate folks. Lacking finesse he resorted to force - bully tactics.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
But VPW at least attended denominational institutions for academic classes. LCM never did attend denominational colleges, universities, seminaries, divinity schools, although we haven't seen Weird willie's report cards/grades from Lakeland/Mission House nor Princeton University/ Seminary because said institutions are ashamed to release material.
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Bolshevik
LCM certainly had a greater influence here than VPW did. VPW is some dead guy who couldn't write or even plagiarize in plain english. That is all.
VPW had the spirit of the 60s he could fashion and mold easily, as far as I understand. People were begging for "leaders" like him. LCM, had memories of some dead guy, and a bunch of people with nowhere else to go.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Thomas!
The Princeton Theological Seminary is in no way affiliated with Princeton University, the Ivy League powerhouse. It was established as a Presbyterian Seminary under the auspices of The Rev. Dr. Archibald Alexander, The General Assembly of The Presbyterian Church, and the College of New Jersey, in 1812, making it the second oldest seminary in the USA. Dic earned himself a Masters of Divinity degree as far as I know. I’ve never seen the sheepskin so who knows for sure. The tie-in to Princeton University was an illicit attempt by dic to “upgrade” the value of his degree. Unnecessary imo, since the Princeton Theological Seminary, which by the way, is still in existence, is quite well-known on it’s own, being the second oldest Seminary in the US. Paranoid narcissicism has no bounds and no end at attempted self-aggrandizement.
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