So I think this latest twist in the topic is a slippery slope. The things I saw when I was in were not enough to trigger my attention, but more like foreshadowing. For me.
Can I judge another’s heart and blindness? No only God can. I can share mine.
When you see a pattern of 20 years passing with people climbing ladders promoting themselves and living the perks without whistle blowing you just have to question it.
Did I whistle blow? I spoke up about what I saw. I endured retaliation. Am I better? I don’t know.
What do you do about it once you do see though?
Lay another brick onto the Tower of Babel? Build your own unique one? Or tear it down and help build one that doesn’t magnify man or the devil?
Those are the major questions which remain in my mind about this topic and this group.
Yeah and I tend to think offshoots of TWI have a one-track mindset when it comes to any questions that challenge their frame of thought. I thought of this the other day when I saw a sign in front of a Chocolate Factory shop:
Chocolate is the answer! Who cares what the question is.
I wonder if fear of the unknown…fear of being wrong…fear of what’s outside their comfort zone are real big factors in folks clinging to TWI stuff...to revise Chocolate Factory’s sign accordingly – it’s like they’re saying:
wierwille has the answers! Who cares what the questions are.
If you don’t like “wierwille” in the above phrase, feel free to substitute something else…for instance my interpretation of the Bible is the answer! Who cares what the questions are.
the phrase simply means one is incapable of thinking outside the box.
Edited by T-Bone T-Bone is the answer...who cares what the FBI says
That's an interesting point. I do know why they started as a group in the first place, but I haven't heard the reasoning behind keeping this group together. I follow them, and all I see them doing is teaching on Sundays, and then they are all doing their thing in their respective areas. They do have a big gathering each year, typically in Florida, for a weekend of... I haven't been to one of them, so I can only guess - teachings. I don't know if there is a central theme either.
What I have seen very clearly is their adherence to VPW's teachings, and they have much admiration for him. It leads me to wonder if any of them actually were aware of the things going on with VPW, many of which DWBH has shared here. I can't believe they could have known about that and still think so highly of him.
Are you their apologist on Greasespot? Not one of them has the fortitude to come here and interact, they meet behind the scenes to plan teachings and annual gatherings.
The are not interested in other Christian input they know it all and have convinced themselves of their “calling”.
They behave in exactly the same fashion as every other splinter group has over the last decade. A behind the scenes BOD. Whether they call themselves that or not, people learn from what they are exposed to. They behave this way because they have not learned to behave differently.
Their actions and lack of them expose the gain or filthy lucre in their hearts to be over you as they were in the past. It is their lust for position. The lust for position and function in a certain fashion they cannot curtail any more than a crack habit.
This is the old wineskin. It is the one their pride and arrogance can’t allow them to get rid of regardless of money involved.
Accepting that major premise from them is a bribe.
Their actions and lack of them expose the gain or filthy lucre in their hearts to be over you as they were in the past. It is their lust for position. The lust for position and function in a certain fashion they cannot curtail any more than a crack habit.
It seems to me that you have had no interaction with them at all, for you to make this claim. I have been following them since May of 2017 and they have not once tried to tell us what to do or not do, other than that they don't want us to tithe to them. And I think that's wonderful for two reasons: 1. The tithe doesn't apply to us, and 2. They aren't interested in our money.
So, if they have a lust for position they have a pretty funny way of going about it.
9 minutes ago, chockfull said:
The are not interested in other Christian input they know it all and have convinced themselves of their “calling”.
This is also incorrect. I presented a disagreement, and it went into a group discussion, and they ended up thanking me for my input. In fact, they have had a few teachings already that corrected things we all had learned from TWI.
So, I must ask, how are you so sure of what they are doing?
If these facts “hurt” you Taxidev, it may be that “inner man” urging you to lighten up on some of that possible (though well-meaning) denial of the truth shared here at the GSC.
I'm not denying it at all. Besides what you have shared here, others here have corroborated and others elsewhere have also corroborated. While the depth of it surprised me, I doubted it only briefly, and I actually thanked you for being so forthcoming, if you recall.
It still surprises me, though, that anyone could have been close to the action like you were and still think so highly of him. Is it possible the passing of so much time has fogged over their memories of vpw?
It seems to me that you have had no interaction with them at all, for you to make this claim. I have been following them since May of 2017 and they have not once tried to tell us what to do or not do, other than that they don't want us to tithe to them. And I think that's wonderful for two reasons: 1. The tithe doesn't apply to us, and 2. They aren't interested in our money.
So, if they have a lust for position they have a pretty funny way of going about it.
This is also incorrect. I presented a disagreement, and it went into a group discussion, and they ended up thanking me for my input. In fact, they have had a few teachings already that corrected things we all had learned from TWI.
So, I must ask, how are you so sure of what they are doing?
One of the key determinants of humanity is the ability to recognize patterns. Another is that unless adult humans undergo a significant emotional event, they don't change their values. Another is that we act from habit most of the time.
It's not that we are 100 percent certain... but unless they demonstrate something out of the ordinary, we've pretty much got them pegged.
One of the key determinants of humanity is the ability to recognize patterns. Another is that unless adult humans undergo a significant emotional event, they don't change their values. Another is that we act from habit most of the time.
It's not that we are 100 percent certain... but unless they demonstrate something out of the ordinary, we've pretty much got them pegged.
It's not that we are 100 percent certain... but unless they demonstrate something out of the ordinary, we've pretty much got them pegged.
I understand completely why you would think that, and it is very possible you are correct. But, unlike most of you, I am willing to give them a chance to prove themselves. So far, other than their incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW, I have seen nothing in what they are doing that suggests they are following the mainstream offshoots.
'A leopard doesn't change it's spots'...we've all heard that one huh ? So it is with this group...where is the 'godly, sorrowful repentance' ?? A number of us on here were hurt, coerced, bullied, threatened by some in this RnR group. Do I expect an apology ? NO. Do I even want an apology ? NO. I just want them to keep the fudge away from myself, family, those I love. They may come across as sheep but lift the carcase and peek underneath.
I understand completely why you would think that, and it is very possible you are correct. But, unlike most of you, I am willing to give them a chance to prove themselves. So far, other than their incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW, I have seen nothing in what they are doing that suggests they are following the mainstream offshoots.
Okay.......let's go down a checklist:
"Incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW"......(your words). Check
Teaching wierwille-doctrine......1) Word takes place of absent Christ [Christ is absent?]; 2) Hierarchy positions to lord over others.....[why can't 'advanced class grads' be the leaders???]; 3) The Law of Believing.....[are they teaching this? still?]; 4) Ultra-dispensationalism.....thus, rendering the 4 gospels "for our learning"; 5) Wierwille was THE man of God......and Our Father in the Word [like CFF gave allegiance/innuendo to for years!!]; 6) Not willing to discuss or admit that wierwille was a plagiarist.....big time!!; 7) Wierwille's "research" is the final authority....cannot challenge it; 8) Sexual predation by wierwille, martindale and others is well-documented; 9) Corps coordinators were in lockstep-loyalty to wierwille and martindale.......and yeah, I'm looking at you Moneyhands, Forts, and Horneys; 10) The corps program was straight-up indoctrination.....and followship, NOT leadership!!! Etc. etc. etc. Check.
Centralization of power........authority is wielded by Ex-corps coordinators and corps. Imagine that. Check.
No local church involvement........just "teaching the word." Gawd, does it get MORE OBVIOUS?? Check.
No repentance to God......for hurting others and leading thousands astray. Nope. The past is past. Check.
No accountability.........anybody can teach the damn propaganda. I'd rather SEE the sermon..... Check.
No reaching out to CFF, or CES, or other splinters......WHY do they want to start their OWN group? $$$ and adulation. Check.
Of course, other corps have followed them out the door.......but have they come clean? Or joined another cult? Check.
Cult institutionalized.......hanging with those who jumped ship when you did? Is THAT the standard? Check.
Stage #1.......Do NOT ask for money. Build the following FIRST. Every splinter does this. Check.
Some people just don't understand or value the true meaning of **freedom in Christ.**
It seems to me that you have had no interaction with them at all, for you to make this claim. I have been following them since May of 2017 and they have not once tried to tell us what to do or not do, other than that they don't want us to tithe to them. And I think that's wonderful for two reasons: 1. The tithe doesn't apply to us, and 2. They aren't interested in our money.
So, if they have a lust for position they have a pretty funny way of going about it.
This is also incorrect. I presented a disagreement, and it went into a group discussion, and they ended up thanking me for my input. In fact, they have had a few teachings already that corrected things we all had learned from TWI.
So, I must ask, how are you so sure of what they are doing?
So who exactly is the "us" and "them" here in this? The R&R group consisting of whom exactly? The characters in the video? The extended cast of characters who signed the document and now are no longer welcome at the Way? Some anonymous body I am unaware of who go to R&R fellowships?
Us consists of whom? Those potential customers on the airwaves? Those attending fellowships?
Actually they don't have a funny way of going about it. They have a predictable way of going about it.
So since you brought it up, what was the disagreement you presented? What group discussed it? An Ecclesiastical council from varying Christian backgrounds? A group of local pastors in your area?
The "they" you mentioned have had "a few teachings" already on this? What were these teachings? Where were they presented?
A lot of what I "claim" is simple conclusion from what the Bible says about faith and shipwrecks and such.
I understand completely why you would think that, and it is very possible you are correct. But, unlike most of you, I am willing to give them a chance to prove themselves. So far, other than their incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW, I have seen nothing in what they are doing that suggests they are following the mainstream offshoots.
Taxi, the fact that the group loves VPW, tells me all I need to know about them. DWBH, who knows about Mental Illness, has posted numerous times about VPW's untreated Mental Instability. He knew VPW, and most of the people in R&R, quite well, and worked with them for years. I want nothing to do with anyone, who loves a sick POS like VPW. BTW, if this group loves, VPW as you claim, how come his kids aren't involved with them??
I understand completely why you would think that, and it is very possible you are correct. But, unlike most of you, I am willing to give them a chance to prove themselves. So far, other than their incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW, I have seen nothing in what they are doing that suggests they are following the mainstream offshoots.
you speak of giving them a chance to prove themselves – but perhaps what you think they’re shooting for might be quite different than what they’ve actually set out to accomplish…
to prove oneself is to show that one is able to do something or to succeed at something; You have already noted the group’s excessive admiration for wierwille. That in itself is a huge red flag to me or anyone else who has already endured the frustration, intimidation, elitism, exploitation, and hypocrisy of wierwille…Jesus hit the nail on the head when he called out hypocrites like him:
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean...Matthew 23:27
I don’t mean to sound like an alarmist but anyone who thinks this group is new and improved on Bible stuff, should take heed – that’s playing with fire. It appears the only reference point this group has is the warped yardstick of wierwille’s twisted doctrine and practice...if folks never think outside wierwille’s theological box – they’ll never see how much of it actually goes at cross-purposes to Jesus Christ himself!
…you know…even their chosen name for the group – revival and restoration – should be a clear warning to discerning Christians:
Revival - a reawakening of religious fervor, especially by means of a series of evangelistic meetings.
Restoration - the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition; the reinstatement of a previous practice, right, custom, or situation; the return of a hereditary monarch to a throne, a head of state to government, or a regime to power.
Their goal seems pretty clear to me…they want to revive …reawaken an admiration of wierwille in others…to restore – to return to a former condition of what TWI used to be like under wierwille’s regime of power…revive…restore…or let’s just say re-animate the bones of a dead hypocrite…
Buyer beware, if it smells like the same old $hit that wierwille dished out – it probably is.
Edited by T-Bone wait until you hear the "all clear" on clarity
I understand completely why you would think that, and it is very possible you are correct. But, unlike most of you, I am willing to give them a chance to prove themselves. So far, other than their incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW, I have seen nothing in what they are doing that suggests they are following the mainstream offshoots.
"Incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW"......(your words). Check - Agreed
Teaching wierwille-doctrine...... Not really. For instance, Steven Longley did a great teaching on "likeminded", which did NOT follow what TWI propounded. He showed, through his own research, that is has nothing to do with following what some "leader" wants, but rather what Jesus Christ wants.
1) Word takes place of absent Christ [Christ is absent?]; Hasn't happened
2) Hierarchy positions to lord over others.....[why can't 'advanced class grads' be the leaders???]; There are no "leaders", per se, only the original group that handles the web site, and the teaching schedule.
3) The Law of Believing.....[are they teaching this? still?]; I haven't heard anything on this yet. The law of Love, yes.
4) Ultra-dispensationalism.....thus, rendering the 4 gospels "for our learning"; I haven't heard anything on this yet either.
5) Wierwille was THE man of God......and Our Father in the Word [like CFF gave allegiance/innuendo to for years!!]; They have not propounded this, but informally several have expressed their respect for many of his teachings of old, so old that I haven't heard them.
6) Not willing to discuss or admit that wierwille was a plagiarist.....big time!!; I don't know what they did for their entire first year, and I was only partially following them from May 2017 to November. So what they discussed and/or admitted is not known to me.
7) Wierwille's "research" is the final authority....cannot challenge it; I have already challenged something with them, and there was a great discussion, and they were appreciative of my input. And as mentioned above, Longley contradicted his "research" already.
8) Sexual predation by wierwille, martindale and others is well-documented; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group.
9) Corps coordinators were in lockstep-loyalty to wierwille and martindale.......and yeah, I'm looking at you Moneyhands, Forts, and Horneys; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group, but I know things like this can happen in a cult.
10) The corps program was straight-up indoctrination.....and followship, NOT leadership!!! I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group. Etc. etc. etc. Check.
Centralization of power........authority is wielded by Ex-corps coordinators and corps. Imagine that. Check. The only "authority" demonstrated is in the handling of their web site.
No local church involvement........just "teaching the word." Gawd, does it get MORE OBVIOUS?? Check. Because they are all scattered throughout the US, I have no way of knowing what they are all doing on a local level. Do you?
No repentance to God......for hurting others and leading thousands astray. Nope. The past is past. Check. How could anyone know if they have repented?
No accountability.........anybody can teach the damn propaganda. I'd rather SEE the sermon..... Check. So far I haven't heard any propaganda teachings, only some pretty deep teachings of the Word.
No reaching out to CFF, or CES, or other splinters......WHY do they want to start their OWN group? $$$ and adulation. Check. So far, they have been very specific they don't want money. I haven't seen a desire for adulation, but I am not psychic.
Of course, other corps have followed them out the door.......but have they come clean? Or joined another cult? Check. I don't know how to respond to this one.
Cult institutionalized.......hanging with those who jumped ship when you did? Is THAT the standard? Check. My understanding of a cult includes control, but there are no words/actions or anything else in the way of control.
Stage #1.......Do NOT ask for money. Build the following FIRST. Every splinter does this. Check. And this one, as far as I'm concerned, is something in the "wait and see" category. I would like that your are incorrect, but I know there is the possibility you are not.
So who exactly is the "us" and "them" here in this?
"Them" is the founding group and the others who signed the formal letter. I believe that's about 18 people, or so. And "us" is all the rest of us who just listen to the teachings on Sundays.
13 hours ago, chockfull said:
So since you brought it up, what was the disagreement you presented? What group discussed it?
TWI taught that we are fellow workers with God, and I showed my understanding of that phrase to be God's fellow workers, as in FOR God, not with Him. We discussed this on a discussion forum, several of the group chimed in, some demonstrating they didn't really understand it, others did, and saw that what I was saying made sense, and one of the original group agreeing with me flat out.
13 hours ago, chockfull said:
The "they" you mentioned have had "a few teachings" already on this?
No, not "on this", but correcting prior TWI teachings, such as Steven Longley correcting what "likeminded" is really about. It was on one of the Sunday evening call-ins.
13 hours ago, chockfull said:
A lot of what I "claim" is simple conclusion from what the Bible says about faith and shipwrecks and such.
BTW, if this group loves, VPW as you claim, how come his kids aren't involved with them??
I really couldn't say. What I do understand is how heavily indoctrinated many of them were, and for a long time. I'm sure that takes time to undo. And while they do still admire VPW, I readily bring up my disagreements, when I have them, despite the adherence to his teachings that many of them have. I have no real ties to them, so if they don't like that I contradict teachings and tell me I'm no longer welcome, so be it. But so far, that hasn't happened.
but perhaps what you think they’re shooting for might be quite different than what they’ve actually set out to accomplish…
I could say the same about you. And please keep in mind, I am not defending anything they did in the past, nor am I defending what they are doing now. But I can only watch and listen now, and so far what I have seen and heard is not bad.
10 hours ago, T-Bone said:
if folks never think outside wierwille’s theological box – they’ll never see how much of it actually goes at cross-purposes to Jesus Christ himself!
And I have already seen that they are working their way out of that box.
11 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Their goal seems pretty clear to me…they want to revive …reawaken an admiration of wierwille in others…to restore – to return to a former condition of what TWI used to be like under wierwille’s regime of power…revive…restore…or let’s just say re-animate the bones of a dead hypocrite…
I haven't seen that happening. In the beginning they wanted to do that with TWI, but now that they have completely severed ties with TWI, these folks seem more to be trying to revive and restore the 1st century church. For instance, they taught that the tithe doesn't apply to us, and all of us is part of the body of Christ, and HE is the head, none of us are.
11 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Buyer beware, if it smells like the same old $hit that wierwille dished out – it probably is.
No, it doesn't smell like that at all to me. There are several that still admire his teachings, but they aren't regurgitating them like TWI did, and they aren't trying to control anyone. But time will tell.
"Incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW"......(your words). Check - Agreed
Teaching wierwille-doctrine...... Not really. For instance, Steven Longley did a great teaching on "likeminded", which did NOT follow what TWI propounded. He showed, through his own research, that is has nothing to do with following what some "leader" wants, but rather what Jesus Christ wants.
Thanks Taxidev.......appreciate your forthright answers.
Steven Longley........the same who was part of the three amigos who taught twi's newest foundational class?
Steven Longley
John Rupp
David Chavoiste (sp?)
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Steven Longley is now helping to spearhead the R&R teachings? WOW.......if that's the case then this last exodus of corps (and staff?) has cut deeper into the twi-cult than I've heard thus far. The board of directors must be seething over this....
NOW.......if this R&R group would EXPOSE the dirty secrets and gut the twi-cult.
Proabably, will never happen. I only see another wierwille-splinter in the making.......(sigh)
I could say the same about you. And please keep in mind, I am not defending anything they did in the past, nor am I defending what they are doing now. But I can only watch and listen now, and so far what I have seen and heard is not bad.
And I have already seen that they are working their way out of that box.
I haven't seen that happening. In the beginning they wanted to do that with TWI, but now that they have completely severed ties with TWI, these folks seem more to be trying to revive and restore the 1st century church. For instance, they taught that the tithe doesn't apply to us, and all of us is part of the body of Christ, and HE is the head, none of us are.
No, it doesn't smell like that at all to me. There are several that still admire his teachings, but they aren't regurgitating them like TWI did, and they aren't trying to control anyone. But time will tell.
Taxidev, I appreciate your articulate response and observations of R&R...and your patience!
I’ve never thought you were defending anything...I said that stuff in an effort to get a feel for what’s going on now relative to what I experienced “ages” ago...
...by the way - I figure you’ve probably said this before and I just missed it or forgot - but anyway how long were you involved in TWI and how did you come across the R&R group?
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Steven Longley is now helping to spearhead the R&R teachings? WOW
My understanding is he left because Rosalie closed the research department. She said they know all they need to know. I almost choked when I learned about that.
I figure you’ve probably said this before and I just missed it or forgot - but anyway how long were you involved in TWI and how did you come across the R&R group?
I started attending fellowship in 1995.
Last year a friend in Florida messaged me in facebook about the R&R livecast in May. I missed it because I wasn't on fb for several months, and say the invitation a week later when I finally went on fb. So I watched the recording. While it wasn't thrilling, and barely revealing, I figured I'd watch what they were up to while still attending TWI fellowship. I officially ended that in May this year.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi All! Well....I actually finished forcing myself to listen to those lying, sanctimonious, self-deluded fools. I could only take it in 8-10 minute segments, once a day. I felt as if I was watchi
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T-Bone
Yeah and I tend to think offshoots of TWI have a one-track mindset when it comes to any questions that challenge their frame of thought. I thought of this the other day when I saw a sign in front of a Chocolate Factory shop:
Chocolate is the answer! Who cares what the question is.
I wonder if fear of the unknown…fear of being wrong…fear of what’s outside their comfort zone are real big factors in folks clinging to TWI stuff...to revise Chocolate Factory’s sign accordingly – it’s like they’re saying:
wierwille has the answers! Who cares what the questions are.
If you don’t like “wierwille” in the above phrase, feel free to substitute something else…for instance my interpretation of the Bible is the answer! Who cares what the questions are.
the phrase simply means one is incapable of thinking outside the box.
Edited by T-BoneT-Bone is the answer...who cares what the FBI says
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chockfull
Are you their apologist on Greasespot? Not one of them has the fortitude to come here and interact, they meet behind the scenes to plan teachings and annual gatherings.
The are not interested in other Christian input they know it all and have convinced themselves of their “calling”.
They behave in exactly the same fashion as every other splinter group has over the last decade. A behind the scenes BOD. Whether they call themselves that or not, people learn from what they are exposed to. They behave this way because they have not learned to behave differently.
Their actions and lack of them expose the gain or filthy lucre in their hearts to be over you as they were in the past. It is their lust for position. The lust for position and function in a certain fashion they cannot curtail any more than a crack habit.
This is the old wineskin. It is the one their pride and arrogance can’t allow them to get rid of regardless of money involved.
Accepting that major premise from them is a bribe.
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Taxidev
It seems to me that you have had no interaction with them at all, for you to make this claim. I have been following them since May of 2017 and they have not once tried to tell us what to do or not do, other than that they don't want us to tithe to them. And I think that's wonderful for two reasons: 1. The tithe doesn't apply to us, and 2. They aren't interested in our money.
So, if they have a lust for position they have a pretty funny way of going about it.
This is also incorrect. I presented a disagreement, and it went into a group discussion, and they ended up thanking me for my input. In fact, they have had a few teachings already that corrected things we all had learned from TWI.
So, I must ask, how are you so sure of what they are doing?
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Taxidev
I'm not denying it at all. Besides what you have shared here, others here have corroborated and others elsewhere have also corroborated. While the depth of it surprised me, I doubted it only briefly, and I actually thanked you for being so forthcoming, if you recall.
It still surprises me, though, that anyone could have been close to the action like you were and still think so highly of him. Is it possible the passing of so much time has fogged over their memories of vpw?
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Taxidev
Not at all. I am merely stating my observations.
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Rocky
One of the key determinants of humanity is the ability to recognize patterns. Another is that unless adult humans undergo a significant emotional event, they don't change their values. Another is that we act from habit most of the time.
It's not that we are 100 percent certain... but unless they demonstrate something out of the ordinary, we've pretty much got them pegged.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, I agree. It
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, I agree. Same Bull as TWI, just a different day.
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Taxidev
I understand completely why you would think that, and it is very possible you are correct. But, unlike most of you, I am willing to give them a chance to prove themselves. So far, other than their incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW, I have seen nothing in what they are doing that suggests they are following the mainstream offshoots.
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Allan
'A leopard doesn't change it's spots'...we've all heard that one huh ? So it is with this group...where is the 'godly, sorrowful repentance' ?? A number of us on here were hurt, coerced, bullied, threatened by some in this RnR group. Do I expect an apology ? NO. Do I even want an apology ? NO. I just want them to keep the fudge away from myself, family, those I love. They may come across as sheep but lift the carcase and peek underneath.
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skyrider
Okay.......let's go down a checklist:
Some people just don't understand or value the true meaning of **freedom in Christ.**
.
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chockfull
So who exactly is the "us" and "them" here in this? The R&R group consisting of whom exactly? The characters in the video? The extended cast of characters who signed the document and now are no longer welcome at the Way? Some anonymous body I am unaware of who go to R&R fellowships?
Us consists of whom? Those potential customers on the airwaves? Those attending fellowships?
Actually they don't have a funny way of going about it. They have a predictable way of going about it.
So since you brought it up, what was the disagreement you presented? What group discussed it? An Ecclesiastical council from varying Christian backgrounds? A group of local pastors in your area?
The "they" you mentioned have had "a few teachings" already on this? What were these teachings? Where were they presented?
A lot of what I "claim" is simple conclusion from what the Bible says about faith and shipwrecks and such.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi, the fact that the group loves VPW, tells me all I need to know about them. DWBH, who knows about Mental Illness, has posted numerous times about VPW's untreated Mental Instability. He knew VPW, and most of the people in R&R, quite well, and worked with them for years. I want nothing to do with anyone, who loves a sick POS like VPW. BTW, if this group loves, VPW as you claim, how come his kids aren't involved with them??
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TLC
What, you think he only once used that Jedi mind trick? ha!
You can spin the rest of my post however you want. It doesn't change it one iota.
Edited by TLCLink to comment
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T-Bone
you speak of giving them a chance to prove themselves – but perhaps what you think they’re shooting for might be quite different than what they’ve actually set out to accomplish…
to prove oneself is to show that one is able to do something or to succeed at something; You have already noted the group’s excessive admiration for wierwille. That in itself is a huge red flag to me or anyone else who has already endured the frustration, intimidation, elitism, exploitation, and hypocrisy of wierwille…Jesus hit the nail on the head when he called out hypocrites like him:
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean... Matthew 23:27
I don’t mean to sound like an alarmist but anyone who thinks this group is new and improved on Bible stuff, should take heed – that’s playing with fire. It appears the only reference point this group has is the warped yardstick of wierwille’s twisted doctrine and practice...if folks never think outside wierwille’s theological box – they’ll never see how much of it actually goes at cross-purposes to Jesus Christ himself!
…you know…even their chosen name for the group – revival and restoration – should be a clear warning to discerning Christians:
Revival - a reawakening of religious fervor, especially by means of a series of evangelistic meetings.
Restoration - the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition; the reinstatement of a previous practice, right, custom, or situation; the return of a hereditary monarch to a throne, a head of state to government, or a regime to power.
Their goal seems pretty clear to me…they want to revive …reawaken an admiration of wierwille in others…to restore – to return to a former condition of what TWI used to be like under wierwille’s regime of power…revive…restore…or let’s just say re-animate the bones of a dead hypocrite…
Buyer beware, if it smells like the same old $hit that wierwille dished out – it probably is.
Edited by T-Bonewait until you hear the "all clear" on clarity
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Rocky
Take the blinders off... you'll see it.
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Taxidev
Let's.
"Incredibly ridiculous admiration for VPW"......(your words). Check - Agreed
Teaching wierwille-doctrine...... Not really. For instance, Steven Longley did a great teaching on "likeminded", which did NOT follow what TWI propounded. He showed, through his own research, that is has nothing to do with following what some "leader" wants, but rather what Jesus Christ wants.
1) Word takes place of absent Christ [Christ is absent?]; Hasn't happened
2) Hierarchy positions to lord over others.....[why can't 'advanced class grads' be the leaders???]; There are no "leaders", per se, only the original group that handles the web site, and the teaching schedule.
3) The Law of Believing.....[are they teaching this? still?]; I haven't heard anything on this yet. The law of Love, yes.
4) Ultra-dispensationalism.....thus, rendering the 4 gospels "for our learning"; I haven't heard anything on this yet either.
5) Wierwille was THE man of God......and Our Father in the Word [like CFF gave allegiance/innuendo to for years!!]; They have not propounded this, but informally several have expressed their respect for many of his teachings of old, so old that I haven't heard them.
6) Not willing to discuss or admit that wierwille was a plagiarist.....big time!!; I don't know what they did for their entire first year, and I was only partially following them from May 2017 to November. So what they discussed and/or admitted is not known to me.
7) Wierwille's "research" is the final authority....cannot challenge it; I have already challenged something with them, and there was a great discussion, and they were appreciative of my input. And as mentioned above, Longley contradicted his "research" already.
8) Sexual predation by wierwille, martindale and others is well-documented; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group.
9) Corps coordinators were in lockstep-loyalty to wierwille and martindale.......and yeah, I'm looking at you Moneyhands, Forts, and Horneys; I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group, but I know things like this can happen in a cult.
10) The corps program was straight-up indoctrination.....and followship, NOT leadership!!! I don't understand this point in regard to the R&R group. Etc. etc. etc. Check.
Centralization of power........authority is wielded by Ex-corps coordinators and corps. Imagine that. Check. The only "authority" demonstrated is in the handling of their web site.
No local church involvement........just "teaching the word." Gawd, does it get MORE OBVIOUS?? Check. Because they are all scattered throughout the US, I have no way of knowing what they are all doing on a local level. Do you?
No repentance to God......for hurting others and leading thousands astray. Nope. The past is past. Check. How could anyone know if they have repented?
No accountability.........anybody can teach the damn propaganda. I'd rather SEE the sermon..... Check. So far I haven't heard any propaganda teachings, only some pretty deep teachings of the Word.
No reaching out to CFF, or CES, or other splinters......WHY do they want to start their OWN group? $$$ and adulation. Check. So far, they have been very specific they don't want money. I haven't seen a desire for adulation, but I am not psychic.
Of course, other corps have followed them out the door.......but have they come clean? Or joined another cult? Check. I don't know how to respond to this one.
Cult institutionalized.......hanging with those who jumped ship when you did? Is THAT the standard? Check. My understanding of a cult includes control, but there are no words/actions or anything else in the way of control.
Stage #1.......Do NOT ask for money. Build the following FIRST. Every splinter does this. Check. And this one, as far as I'm concerned, is something in the "wait and see" category. I would like that your are incorrect, but I know there is the possibility you are not.
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Taxidev
"Them" is the founding group and the others who signed the formal letter. I believe that's about 18 people, or so. And "us" is all the rest of us who just listen to the teachings on Sundays.
TWI taught that we are fellow workers with God, and I showed my understanding of that phrase to be God's fellow workers, as in FOR God, not with Him. We discussed this on a discussion forum, several of the group chimed in, some demonstrating they didn't really understand it, others did, and saw that what I was saying made sense, and one of the original group agreeing with me flat out.
No, not "on this", but correcting prior TWI teachings, such as Steven Longley correcting what "likeminded" is really about. It was on one of the Sunday evening call-ins.
This is presumptuous and sidesteps my question.
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Taxidev
I really couldn't say. What I do understand is how heavily indoctrinated many of them were, and for a long time. I'm sure that takes time to undo. And while they do still admire VPW, I readily bring up my disagreements, when I have them, despite the adherence to his teachings that many of them have. I have no real ties to them, so if they don't like that I contradict teachings and tell me I'm no longer welcome, so be it. But so far, that hasn't happened.
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Taxidev
I could say the same about you. And please keep in mind, I am not defending anything they did in the past, nor am I defending what they are doing now. But I can only watch and listen now, and so far what I have seen and heard is not bad.
And I have already seen that they are working their way out of that box.
I haven't seen that happening. In the beginning they wanted to do that with TWI, but now that they have completely severed ties with TWI, these folks seem more to be trying to revive and restore the 1st century church. For instance, they taught that the tithe doesn't apply to us, and all of us is part of the body of Christ, and HE is the head, none of us are.
No, it doesn't smell like that at all to me. There are several that still admire his teachings, but they aren't regurgitating them like TWI did, and they aren't trying to control anyone. But time will tell.
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skyrider
Thanks Taxidev.......appreciate your forthright answers.
Steven Longley........the same who was part of the three amigos who taught twi's newest foundational class?
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Steven Longley is now helping to spearhead the R&R teachings? WOW.......if that's the case then this last exodus of corps (and staff?) has cut deeper into the twi-cult than I've heard thus far. The board of directors must be seething over this....
NOW.......if this R&R group would EXPOSE the dirty secrets and gut the twi-cult.
Proabably, will never happen. I only see another wierwille-splinter in the making.......(sigh)
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T-Bone
Taxidev, I appreciate your articulate response and observations of R&R...and your patience!
I’ve never thought you were defending anything...I said that stuff in an effort to get a feel for what’s going on now relative to what I experienced “ages” ago...
...by the way - I figure you’ve probably said this before and I just missed it or forgot - but anyway how long were you involved in TWI and how did you come across the R&R group?
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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Taxidev
My understanding is he left because Rosalie closed the research department. She said they know all they need to know. I almost choked when I learned about that.
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Taxidev
I started attending fellowship in 1995.
Last year a friend in Florida messaged me in facebook about the R&R livecast in May. I missed it because I wasn't on fb for several months, and say the invitation a week later when I finally went on fb. So I watched the recording. While it wasn't thrilling, and barely revealing, I figured I'd watch what they were up to while still attending TWI fellowship. I officially ended that in May this year.
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