Thanks for your response Taxidev and I’m glad you’ll be around awhile and will be sharing on what’s happening in both groups...I value everyone’s input here - it helps me see the bigger picture.
There are a good number of teachings on their FB page, and they also have a web site with chronological recorded teachings. I'm currently up to April of this year, having started at the beginning, Aug of last year. They also conduct a massive get together in Florida - there is one this February, but I can't make it. It would have been my first. They also had one this past November, also in Florida. They seem to like the warm weather. :)
Everything they do is free. I'm guessing they took to heart what Jesus Christ said, freely you've received, freely give.
Taxi, thank you for answering my questions. If others want to read their teachings, or go to their meetings, that's fine. However, I was involved in TWI for ten years. I do not want to get involved with a TWI Splinter Group.
But Grace, you're here. With R&R, there are really great teachings from the Word, without the TWI slant on it.
Taxi, thanks, but I really am NOT interested in R&R. I would rather spend my time in at the GSC. I am pleasantly surprised by how much Godly information I glean from reading the posts. But again, thank you for the information.
The R&R group receives no money from any of us who listen to their teachings. They don't want our money. Instead, they want each of us to give where we see fit. Sorry if I didn't explain that clearly. They have taken to heart what Jesus Christ said, freely they received and freely they are giving.
There's no denying the hypocrisy of TWI. That's one of the issues the R&R group has had with them, and a growing issue with the folks here in my area. I personally know a long time believer that just stepped out of any association with them. It caused quite a stir with the leadership here.
Because I am currently involved with both groups, TWI and R&R, I am able to share with all of you the most current happenings with them. You seem interested in how things are today, and that's pretty interesting, given all the TWI bashing I have encountered here so far. I was pretty surprised by how much R&R bashing there is already too. They are a new group, still finding their way, and the former way leaders are working pretty diligently at undoing what was done to themselves as well as others. They deserve a little more consideration.
Perhaps you weren't completely clear. "They don't want our money." ≠ " they want each of us to give where we see fit."
"They don't want our money" does equal that they already have enough money to cover start up costs for their new enterprise. I'd wonder where they got it.
"They are a new group, still finding their way..." Well, maybe... but it really just looks from here like they just rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic, figuratively speaking. Though TWI really isn't comparable in size to the Titanic. The leaders of "R&" (no longer two R's, right?) aren't new people. Moneyhands and most of the others have been in TWI for at least four decades.
I would also ask you to help us understand what they are undoing and how they are going about it undoing it.
I would also ask you to help us understand what they are undoing and how they are going about it undoing it.
Initially, by conferring together and composing a letter of issues they had all noticed, almost entirely independently, they had all taken a long look at what the Word says about the things they were seeing, to make sure they were on the right track.
Now, they address in their public teachings many of the issues that they have had to address, many of the wrongs they also had a hand in, and what the Word says about these things. Personally, I have had only positive experiences with some of them, and no experiences with the rest.
Not being in leadership myself, there were many things going on I was not aware of. But other things they did bring up, while not seeing them directly, I was feeling the effects of in my fellowship. For instance, outreach. It's been over a year since I have invited someone to fellowship. I was very happy to discuss the bible and God, but I made no move to invite them. Why? Because in my gut I felt it would be wrong, even though I didn't understand why I felt that. Now I do. And on this topic, R&R has shown, in the Word, that outreach isn't about getting people to a fellowship or in a class, it is about clearing the fog for people, to show them the light of the Word. That's it. If they want more, they'll ask for more. But they don't have to sit in a WI class to get more, I am quite capable to teach them more. And that's really what we should be doing. The Word fitly spoken. For free.
This is just one example of the doctrinal error TWI has propagated that the R&R group is dismantling. The tithe is another, which I have already mentioned. There are others, but I need to sleep. I'll be back, and we can continue this discussion.
Initially, by conferring together and composing a letter of issues they had all noticed, almost entirely independently, they had all taken a long look at what the Word says about the things they were seeing, to make sure they were on the right track.
Now, they address in their public teachings many of the issues that they have had to address, many of the wrongs they also had a hand in, and what the Word says about these things. Personally, I have had only positive experiences with some of them, and no experiences with the rest.
Not being in leadership myself, there were many things going on I was not aware of. But other things they did bring up, while not seeing them directly, I was feeling the effects of in my fellowship. For instance, outreach. It's been over a year since I have invited someone to fellowship. I was very happy to discuss the bible and God, but I made no move to invite them. Why? Because in my gut I felt it would be wrong, even though I didn't understand why I felt that. Now I do. And on this topic, R&R has shown, in the Word, that outreach isn't about getting people to a fellowship or in a class, it is about clearing the fog for people, to show them the light of the Word. That's it. If they want more, they'll ask for more. But they don't have to sit in a WI class to get more, I am quite capable to teach them more. And that's really what we should be doing. The Word fitly spoken. For free.
This is just one example of the doctrinal error TWI has propagated that the R&R group is dismantling. The tithe is another, which I have already mentioned. There are others, but I need to sleep. I'll be back, and we can continue this discussion.
Sleep well. I look forward to more discussion with you. And... Merry Christmas.
Because I am currently involved with both groups, TWI and R&R, I am able to share with all of you the most current happenings with them. You seem interested in how things are today, and that's pretty interesting, given all the TWI bashing I have encountered here so far. I was pretty surprised by how much R&R bashing there is already too. They are a new group, still finding their way, and the former way leaders are working pretty diligently at undoing what was done to themselves as well as others. They deserve a little more consideration.
Welcome to GSC Taxidev.
I’m curious how you manage to be “currently involved with both groups”? Aren’t they mutually exclusive these days? The idea that they’re “a new group, still finding their way” is (forgive me) laughable IMHO. These folks have been around for decades and were a big part of VeePee and twi’s hypocrisy, and deception. They were enablers and contributed to destroying countless lives. They’re not trying to undo anything. They still think VeePee was the greatest since Saul of Tarsus.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see that they deserve or warrant any “consideration” except people should be warned about what they’re up to which in my mind is no good.
I’m glad you’re here with the courage to post your views. Please keep it up. Merry Christmas.
They were enablers and contributed to destroying countless lives.
JayDee,
They have admitted such. And they have expressed their apologies and sorrow for having done any harm to anyone. While they are all adults, they did think they were doing the right thing. Being deceived was not an easy thing to recognize and acknowledge, but that is what they have done. And they have asked for forgiveness.
I don't have a long history with many of these people, but the ones I know personally are incredible men of God, with a strong stand on the Word as opposed to any organization or individual, other then Jesus Christ. It is because of those individuals that I know personally that I am following what they are doing and teaching. I see here that many of you have a plethora of negative experiences with many of them, but I don't. Maybe that's why I am more willing to give them a chance to prove themselves.
These two groups, R&R and TWI, are NOT mutually exclusive, because I am committed to neither. I listen to the teachings from both, and to the best I can I act like the Bereans and check the Word for myself. I was being raise Roman Catholic, so when I met TWI I learned more in one year than I had in the prior 40 of my life, and that included reading the bible for myself - what an eye opener THAT was. There is more depth in the R&R teachings than I have gotten from TWI in the past 10 years. I also listen to other ministers, ordained or not - because I don't give much credence to that title - and I learn what I can learn from each of them. For me, it is the Word that matters, so I can easily distance myself from the organization and the individuals and just listen to the teachings.
I really am hopeful that you are incorrect about R&R, but if you are not I will realize it and I will take appropriate action to protect myself. But so far none of them have propounded VPW's views on managing a ministry. In fact, they have taken a completely different course in running their group. And, while they do occasionally mention something he taught, what they mention is backed up in the Word, and that's all that matters to me.
Welcome, Taxidev. Think you already have a coffee. Nice to chat with you.
It's going to be interesting to hear what a current innie has to say. Don't let aggressive comments from some here put you off.
And, Taxidev, good that you find you can also learn from the R&R lot, but don't let that stop you from exploring what others have to say. There are good (and not so good) teachings and sermons in churches and on the net. If you listen to those outside of TWI kinda of thinking, your hackles will rise and your mind will start "correcting " what you hear. But stick with it, and you may gain some different perspectives. Take nothing and no one as being completely 100% accurate. They're all doing their best with what they know now (unless they are knowing scammers). They, like you, are free to reassess.
They were enablers and contributed to destroying countless lives.
1 hour ago, Taxidev said:
JayDee,
They have admitted such. And they have expressed their apologies and sorrow for having done any harm to anyone. While they are all adults, they did think they were doing the right thing. Being deceived was not an easy thing to recognize and acknowledge, but that is what they have done. And they have asked for forgiveness.
This always amazes me. They wreck how many lives? They abuse how many people? They refuse to listen to their iniquities for how many years? Then, when it's obvious the ship is sinking, they think all it takes is a an apology and all will be fogiven and it'll all go back to business as usual.
Tell me, if somebody robs your house, you may forgive them, but are you gonna let the front door unlocked? If someone stole money from you, you may forgive them, but are you going to let your cash lay around when they come visiting?
If they were sincerely sorry, they would resign and put the ministry in the hands of someone who will run it the way the claim they will.
I understand, they did some pretty crappy things, many that are difficult to forget. I didn't experience that crap, but I am still at arm's length. I don't easily entrench myself, and I am in no rush to be committed to an organization. But so far, I like what they are doing. I'm sure it is BECAUSE I didn't experience what you did that I am able to approach them without judgement. I believe everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves, and by their fruits they will be known.
I understand, they did some pretty crappy things, many that are difficult to forget. I didn't experience that crap, but I am still at arm's length. I don't easily entrench myself, and I am in no rush to be committed to an organization. But so far, I like what they are doing. I'm sure it is BECAUSE I didn't experience what you did that I am able to approach them without judgement. I believe everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves, and by their fruits they will be known.
What I experience was nothing compared to what many others in this forum experienced.
However, as to proving themselves.
How much of a chance did they give a person to prove themself before a facemelting? Before they marked and avoided them?
They've had plenty of opportunity to prove themselves, years and years of opportunities. How many people do you think approached them to tell them where they were off and, rather than listen to them, they had those people marked and avoided?
The Scorpion And The Frog
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out. But in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
I understand, they did some pretty crappy things, many that are difficult to forget. I didn't experience that crap, but I am still at arm's length. I don't easily entrench myself, and I am in no rush to be committed to an organization. But so far, I like what they are doing. I'm sure it is BECAUSE I didn't experience what you did that I am able to approach them without judgement. I believe everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves, and by their fruits they will be known.
“Pretty crappy” doesn’t come close to the evil these folks were/are a part of. And because you “didn’t experience” what they did makes it no less evil. These folks have been known “by their fruits”. For decades. That’s why you’re being warned. Could they change and repent? I honestly don’t know. Their video that’s been viewed here at GSC didn’t indicate any change of heart IMO.
You mentioned Vince Finnegan in another comment. My suggestion is to search him here at GSC and you’ll find out all you want to know about him. I trust you’ll take the time.
Again, thanks for taking your time to post here. Your insights into both groups are appreciated.
To be clear on my position with RnR, i am waiting to see. I have no judgement or bitterness in my heart towards them, or anyone for that matter. I need to relisten to the teachings. Some of the leadership were my peers when i was cabinet and i didnt fit the mold then either. Im surprised many of them grew a pair and stood up to rosie, that took guts, or maybe shes so old now they thought granny would roll over and play retired.....lol....either way. If their movement is from the Lord Jesus Christ time will tell. Glad your here!
"They have admitted such. And they have expressed their apologies and sorrow for having done any harm to anyone. While they are all adults, they did think they were doing the right thing. Being deceived was not an easy thing to recognize and acknowledge, but that is what they have done. And they have asked for forgiveness."
"I don't have a long history with many of these people, but the ones I know personally are incredible men of God, with a strong stand on the Word as opposed to any organization or individual, other then Jesus Christ. It is because of those individuals that I know personally that I am following what they are doing and teaching. I see here that many of you have a plethora of negative experiences with many of them, but I don't. Maybe that's why I am more willing to give them a chance to prove themselves."
I have been reading with interest, your several posts concerning R&R. You do have a unique, and much closer view of both TWIt and it's latest Offshoot, R&R, as they exist today, and your firsthand experiences with some of the major actors in both cults. I quoted the first two paragraphs of a post you posted early yesterday morning, because imo, it effectively summarizes your baseline opinions and attitudes toward TWIt and R&R, and it sparked some thoughts on my part that may expand your knowledge of facts which you are most likely not aware of.
You say you got involved in TWIt in 1995. By that time Boob and Doody MoneyHands and Michael Fort had already been involved with TWIT for 25 plus years. Moyneyhands officiated at my wedding in 1973, and was in-rez with my wife and I for the one year the 3rd corpse was in-rez with the 4th. Boob and Doody were made "honorary" 3rd corpse grads after that year. Boob got ordained in the fall of 1970 at HQ by dictor Paul in the BRC along with John Lynn and Steve Heefner. Heefner went to The Way East (NY and New England), Lynn to IN, and Moyneyhands to NC and the ECU Way Home. Later, when dictor paul pulled his silent coup/takeover of the Way East in March of 1972, firing Heefner and replacing him with none other than Boob and Doody, I was a full-time TWIt employee at The Way of Long Island.
I had first been to ECU in March, 1971 for a "Youth Advance". I went down with Pressed Down and Steve Heefner from NY. That's where I first met Boob and Doody. Then, I was a full-time Branch Leader in Queens/Brooklyn under Steve Perez, when Boob came to be the hatchet-man for dic's putsch. Heefner was fired, Perez quit, and the full-timers in Long Island and NYC all quit and got jobs. That is when my 16 year interaction with boob and Doody began.
You said they have apologized with sorrow "for any harm they have done to anyone". Well, they did great harm to me and my family 22 years before you ever heard of TWIt'n'Piffle. I confronted them. They NEVER repented, not to this day nor have they ever apologized.
They were adults alright, but they were NOT DECEIVED! They knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and why they were doing it. They knew EVERYTHING and I KNOW what they knew because I confronted them, and da Forehead, and the board of trustees personally for 9 months at HQ in 1986, right up to when I resigned in December of that year. They repeatedly and willingly lied to cover for Wierwille, both dic and Donnie, Howard Allen, Da Forehead and BellaDonna, Rosalie Rivenbark, THEMSELVES and all their ECU pals, who were just loving dic's Ephesians license to sin teachings. I have shared numerous incidents of their lying, manipulative phony "counseling", covering up for all the scores and scores of abusive sex acts committed by their moggie pals, contributing directly to suicides among those who had been raped or molested by their BOT and other "top leadership", in order to guard their "lockboxes" and the man-o-gawd. There are numerous posts for you to review here Taxidev, should you want to know more facts. They did that for 20 years before you ever heard of TWIt! Do you realize how many VICTIMS they have yet to apologize to???
Fortunately for you, you "don't have a long history with many of these people." I do, and let me assure you, these "incredible men of God" are exactly THAT! INCREDIBLE! They are liars. They have been participants in and guardians of the very behaviors you say they "independently" and concurrently arrived at a biblical consensus about, thus condemning everything they themselves gleefully participated in for 25 years before you ever met them. There can be no genuine forgiveness to elders in the church without their genuine repentance (Matt 18). They never asked me for forgiveness. That's what Jesus taught, but that's only "for your learning, it's not TO you"! LOL!
They were not deceived. Not since 1972! And they STILL lie. They're still guilty. And, so are the Forts, and the Horneys. I know plenty of their facts too. They have not apologized to me nor asked for my forgiveness. It's been 31 years since I last confronted them face-to-face. I wrote them a letter and submitted 16 separate questions for their FB dog'n'pony show last May. Never answered any one of them. I did get a response from incredible boob though! I posted it here. It was, "Hi Ralph." Many of us here do have a "plethora" of nasty experiences with your pals at R&R. We ate their rotten "fruit" for 20 years before you got to personally know how incredible they are. They "proved themselves" as pimps and whores for 20 years before they pimped you. They got more "consideration" by far, than they ever even considered having for those they helped destroy through 48 years of faithful TWIt service. There are dead human beings on their "bema list"! I think their bema time will be a helluva lot of "I never knew you(s)" and very few, if any, "rewards". Looking forward to your thoughts Taxidev..............peace.
Some of that R&R leadership group were willing participants in many of the types of misdeeds we have cataloged here including the sexual swinger's club at the top level. While I appreciate their words of contrition, their actions right now exactly mirror the Way's. Whitewash their past, while securing their future by starting a new ministry utilizing their teaching credentials and connections from the past.
Starting a new splinter group is not a new thing. There's even threads on "How to Start a Cult" around here, giving pointers to better ways. Some of the old wineskin groups are less harmful than others of the old wineskin groups. For example, I remember talking to Shr0yer and Cl@pp when they left and started CFFM. That's the last group to leave the Way and teach all the good stuff but remove all the bad stuff. I guess they weren't good buddies enough with this group leaving and Shr0yer left it as an inheritance to Tonya his daughter so they can't have the same power over there. So instead joining that group, they need to found a new splinter. So they can have power and influence again. It is another variation of serving their own belly as the Bible states. Their primary interests are their "position" - in society, in this new group they are founding. They are the leaders, the founders, the head cheeses in charge.
I mean why couldn't they realize so much about their training is messed up and have the humility to allow others with better training to lead? Like joining a church locally. Or mixing it up with other Christians in the body of Christ. But no, they gravitate towards those that treat them with the same status they had in the Way.
It's a ministry founded on alligator tears and fake contrition.
I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse. I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I was that torn up about having misled people either into the lies or deeper into the lies and slavery of twi. I spent several years after I left reevaluating ALL of my beliefs. I think anyone who leaves needs time to decompress and reevaluate. I wouldn't even read KJV because of the ruts in my brain that led to twi beliefs. I'm still in process.
Taxidev, as someone who has a bro-in-law directly involved in leadership and the COUNTLESS wrongs he has done to my family and I and others ( including a number of women..I think you get the drift ) I will let you know when we get an apology from him and his wife ! That might tell me something about this r & r group and their motives. That it's taken them 20 years to jump ship ( After the LCM fiasco speaks volumes to me. IMO, they are all a bunch of used up hacks that have realised they aint gonna be getting any support from twi as their sunset years fast approach so are going to use what abs they have for themselves and THEIR families....
I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse. I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I was that torn up about having misled people either into the lies or deeper into the lies and slavery of twi. I spent several years after I left reevaluating ALL of my beliefs. I think anyone who leaves needs time to decompress and reevaluate. I wouldn't even read KJV because of the ruts in my brain that led to twi beliefs. I'm still in process.
Its taken me nearly 10 years to find myself after the corps and being mistreated by the directors. Please pm me if theres anything i can do or help with. Ive learned to be a listener instead of a lecturer. I wish u all the best!
On December 24, 2017 at 10:14 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:
Hi Taxidev. Welcome to the Spot!
"They have admitted such. And they have expressed their apologies and sorrow for having done any harm to anyone. While they are all adults, they did think they were doing the right thing. Being deceived was not an easy thing to recognize and acknowledge, but that is what they have done. And they have asked for forgiveness."
"I don't have a long history with many of these people, but the ones I know personally are incredible men of God, with a strong stand on the Word as opposed to any organization or individual, other then Jesus Christ. It is because of those individuals that I know personally that I am following what they are doing and teaching. I see here that many of you have a plethora of negative experiences with many of them, but I don't. Maybe that's why I am more willing to give them a chance to prove themselves."
I have been reading with interest, your several posts concerning R&R. You do have a unique, and much closer view of both TWIt and it's latest Offshoot, R&R, as they exist today, and your firsthand experiences with some of the major actors in both cults. I quoted the first two paragraphs of a post you posted early yesterday morning, because imo, it effectively summarizes your baseline opinions and attitudes toward TWIt and R&R, and it sparked some thoughts on my part that may expand your knowledge of facts which you are most likely not aware of.
You say you got involved in TWIt in 1995. By that time Boob and Doody MoneyHands and Michael Fort had already been involved with TWIT for 25 plus years. Moyneyhands officiated at my wedding in 1973, and was in-rez with my wife and I for the one year the 3rd corpse was in-rez with the 4th. Boob and Doody were made "honorary" 3rd corpse grads after that year. Boob got ordained in the fall of 1970 at HQ by dictor Paul in the BRC along with John Lynn and Steve Heefner. Heefner went to The Way East (NY and New England), Lynn to IN, and Moyneyhands to NC and the ECU Way Home. Later, when dictor paul pulled his silent coup/takeover of the Way East in March of 1972, firing Heefner and replacing him with none other than Boob and Doody, I was a full-time TWIt employee at The Way of Long Island.
I had first been to ECU in March, 1971 for a "Youth Advance". I went down with Pressed Down and Steve Heefner from NY. That's where I first met Boob and Doody. Then, I was a full-time Branch Leader in Queens/Brooklyn under Steve Perez, when Boob came to be the hatchet-man for dic's putsch. Heefner was fired, Perez quit, and the full-timers in Long Island and NYC all quit and got jobs. That is when my 16 year interaction with boob and Doody began.
You said they have apologized with sorrow "for any harm they have done to anyone". Well, they did great harm to me and my family 22 years before you ever heard of TWIt'n'Piffle. I confronted them. They NEVER repented, not to this day nor have they ever apologized.
They were adults alright, but they were NOT DECEIVED! They knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and why they were doing it. They knew EVERYTHING and I KNOW what they knew because I confronted them, and da Forehead, and the board of trustees personally for 9 months at HQ in 1986, right up to when I resigned in December of that year. They repeatedly and willingly lied to cover for Wierwille, both dic and Donnie, Howard Allen, Da Forehead and BellaDonna, Rosalie Rivenbark, THEMSELVES and all their ECU pals, who were just loving dic's Ephesians license to sin teachings. I have shared numerous incidents of their lying, manipulative phony "counseling", covering up for all the scores and scores of abusive sex acts committed by their moggie pals, contributing directly to suicides among those who had been raped or molested by their BOT and other "top leadership", in order to guard their "lockboxes" and the man-o-gawd. There are numerous posts for you to review here Taxidev, should you want to know more facts. They did that for 20 years before you ever heard of TWIt! Do you realize how many VICTIMS they have yet to apologize to???
Fortunately for you, you "don't have a long history with many of these people." I do, and let me assure you, these "incredible men of God" are exactly THAT! INCREDIBLE! They are liars. They have been participants in and guardians of the very behaviors you say they "independently" and concurrently arrived at a biblical consensus about, thus condemning everything they themselves gleefully participated in for 25 years before you ever met them. There can be no genuine forgiveness to elders in the church without their genuine repentance (Matt 18). They never asked me for forgiveness. That's what Jesus taught, but that's only "for your learning, it's not TO you"! LOL!
They were not deceived. Not since 1972! And they STILL lie. They're still guilty. And, so are the Forts, and the Horneys. I know plenty of their facts too. They have not apologized to me nor asked for my forgiveness. It's been 31 years since I last confronted them face-to-face. I wrote them a letter and submitted 16 separate questions for their FB dog'n'pony show last May. Never answered any one of them. I did get a response from incredible boob though! I posted it here. It was, "Hi Ralph." Many of us here do have a "plethora" of nasty experiences with your pals at R&R. We ate their rotten "fruit" for 20 years before you got to personally know how incredible they are. They "proved themselves" as pimps and whores for 20 years before they pimped you. They got more "consideration" by far, than they ever even considered having for those they helped destroy through 48 years of faithful TWIt service. There are dead human beings on their "bema list"! I think their bema time will be a helluva lot of "I never knew you(s)" and very few, if any, "rewards". Looking forward to your thoughts Taxidev..............peace.
If I had a buck for every person I've counseled who got bad advice and counseling from Moynihan I could buy us both a couple of dinners at the Wooden Shoe Inn, DWB.
None of us were perfect, every one of us in the earliest years you're referring to had challenges, made mistakes. Every one of us got our butts kicked more than once, and deservedly so, in order to get our attention and get us moving in the right direction when we weren't. We were young and learning.
The problem with guys like him is they never got the foundation set right. He and Dottie came into the Corps with previous seniority from NC pending evaluation. After the first few months they and several others were bumped into the 3rd Corps and graduated with a year of "Corps training". They were nice but they were skidding - I'll never forget the BS he gave my wife and I after we discussed his a situation I'd observed, and questioned his handling of it. All I wanted was to see it set right, and I was more than willing to talk about it to help, if I could. Instead he blamed ME for not being "spiritually" minded enough to see how he was right....a tactic that became all too common for him as the years progressed. It seemed minor, we moved on - until it blew up in the people's face later that year, as his "counseling" to them failed. He completely disconnected from any involvement or responsibility. He did the same kind of thing for many years after that. He was also famous for never getting his facts straight and making excuses it didn't matter, later.
Another thing I learned early on about most of the self declared heavies from the early Corps was that most of them were not successful at witnessing, signing people up for PFAL and under shepherding them over time which was the basic thing being promoted at that time - sign 'em up, get 'em in.. They crowed about everyone else being able to do it and castigated failures but many of the assignments they got they didn't have the kind of godly revival that was seen in the early years in the West and East Coast fellowships, Kansas, and other places, they TALKED a lot about it, "taught", telling others what they should do but were not successful at doing it when it came to actual outreach. 1000's of people heard the Word of God and the "signs, miracles and wonders" abounded, confirming the preaching of Jesus Christ. Frankly I was so youthfully dumb at the time I just assumed "they" knew something I didn't when it was the reverse. Charlene talks about this in her book - if you read in and remember what it was like, it becomes painfully obvious. Picture Donnie Fugit, who just "did it", versus other guys who were more interested in "teaching" ad infinitum what was already in PFAL, while there were assuming positions in the ministry.
Did I love Bob - do I today? Absolutely. But everything I've seen and read they've stated they finally saw was "wrong" was wrong for many years prior. I was not happy to see all those people who turned a cold shoulder to God and His people and stayed on there for so many years. Taking all those years to see what they were doing was wrong, they're in need of very very serious rehab. Give them ample space and time to do that.
I remember a guy years ago - he'd been a long standing supporter of the Way for years after many of us had left. His wife had dropped out of active participation, he still had half a leg in and it was either on GS or WayDale where he finally posted a copy of a letter he had just sent to Rosalie. It had the tone of - "you know me, I'm a Corps grad, long time supporter and you know how I love the ministry and support it financially and now here I am, I have some recommendations that I think would help you be a better ministry". He offered to come there, meet with her and discuss these things. He expected a positive response - after all, it was HIM, right? They would listen to him, right? He got a turn down and was ignored beyond that, as he reported it - and he was SHOCKED! Why? Because he had the feeling many others had had before him - hey, it's ME, I'm with you on this, I just want to help....!
When I saw how this most recent group had bailed out, domino style, what they wrote about it reminded me of the same thing, adding of course that they'd been poking needles in anything that acted legitimate for years themselves. The only good news is they disconnected, for whatever reasons. Time will tell where that leads them.
I love you and Mrs. Socks, and verify EVERYTHING you posted. WE were there. Before we were in the 4th together! YOU KNOW what you're talking about and I KNOW and can verify everything you say regarding events we shared together. "You can lead a horse to water son, but you cannot make him drink." Read and learn Greasespotters.! The Socks know whereof they speak!
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi All! Well....I actually finished forcing myself to listen to those lying, sanctimonious, self-deluded fools. I could only take it in 8-10 minute segments, once a day. I felt as if I was watchi
Watered Garden
I'm not even going to bother listening/watching to the R&R presentations you all are talking about. I remember when we got the boot writing a four-page letter explaining our situation to the Rever
penguin2
I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse. I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I
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T-Bone
Thanks for your response Taxidev and I’m glad you’ll be around awhile and will be sharing on what’s happening in both groups...I value everyone’s input here - it helps me see the bigger picture.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi, thank you for answering my questions. If others want to read their teachings, or go to their meetings, that's fine. However, I was involved in TWI for ten years. I do not want to get involved with a TWI Splinter Group.
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Taxidev
But Grace, you're here. With R&R, there are really great teachings from the Word, without the TWI slant on it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Taxi, thanks, but I really am NOT interested in R&R. I would rather spend my time in at the GSC. I am pleasantly surprised by how much Godly information I glean from reading the posts. But again, thank you for the information.
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Rocky
Perhaps you weren't completely clear. "They don't want our money." ≠ " they want each of us to give where we see fit."
"They don't want our money" does equal that they already have enough money to cover start up costs for their new enterprise. I'd wonder where they got it.
"They are a new group, still finding their way..." Well, maybe... but it really just looks from here like they just rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic, figuratively speaking. Though TWI really isn't comparable in size to the Titanic. The leaders of "R&" (no longer two R's, right?) aren't new people. Moneyhands and most of the others have been in TWI for at least four decades.
I would also ask you to help us understand what they are undoing and how they are going about it undoing it.
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Taxidev
Initially, by conferring together and composing a letter of issues they had all noticed, almost entirely independently, they had all taken a long look at what the Word says about the things they were seeing, to make sure they were on the right track.
Now, they address in their public teachings many of the issues that they have had to address, many of the wrongs they also had a hand in, and what the Word says about these things. Personally, I have had only positive experiences with some of them, and no experiences with the rest.
Not being in leadership myself, there were many things going on I was not aware of. But other things they did bring up, while not seeing them directly, I was feeling the effects of in my fellowship. For instance, outreach. It's been over a year since I have invited someone to fellowship. I was very happy to discuss the bible and God, but I made no move to invite them. Why? Because in my gut I felt it would be wrong, even though I didn't understand why I felt that. Now I do. And on this topic, R&R has shown, in the Word, that outreach isn't about getting people to a fellowship or in a class, it is about clearing the fog for people, to show them the light of the Word. That's it. If they want more, they'll ask for more. But they don't have to sit in a WI class to get more, I am quite capable to teach them more. And that's really what we should be doing. The Word fitly spoken. For free.
This is just one example of the doctrinal error TWI has propagated that the R&R group is dismantling. The tithe is another, which I have already mentioned. There are others, but I need to sleep. I'll be back, and we can continue this discussion.
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Rocky
Sleep well. I look forward to more discussion with you. And... Merry Christmas.
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JayDee
Welcome to GSC Taxidev.
I’m curious how you manage to be “currently involved with both groups”? Aren’t they mutually exclusive these days? The idea that they’re “a new group, still finding their way” is (forgive me) laughable IMHO. These folks have been around for decades and were a big part of VeePee and twi’s hypocrisy, and deception. They were enablers and contributed to destroying countless lives. They’re not trying to undo anything. They still think VeePee was the greatest since Saul of Tarsus.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see that they deserve or warrant any “consideration” except people should be warned about what they’re up to which in my mind is no good.
I’m glad you’re here with the courage to post your views. Please keep it up. Merry Christmas.
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Taxidev
JayDee,
They have admitted such. And they have expressed their apologies and sorrow for having done any harm to anyone. While they are all adults, they did think they were doing the right thing. Being deceived was not an easy thing to recognize and acknowledge, but that is what they have done. And they have asked for forgiveness.
I don't have a long history with many of these people, but the ones I know personally are incredible men of God, with a strong stand on the Word as opposed to any organization or individual, other then Jesus Christ. It is because of those individuals that I know personally that I am following what they are doing and teaching. I see here that many of you have a plethora of negative experiences with many of them, but I don't. Maybe that's why I am more willing to give them a chance to prove themselves.
These two groups, R&R and TWI, are NOT mutually exclusive, because I am committed to neither. I listen to the teachings from both, and to the best I can I act like the Bereans and check the Word for myself. I was being raise Roman Catholic, so when I met TWI I learned more in one year than I had in the prior 40 of my life, and that included reading the bible for myself - what an eye opener THAT was. There is more depth in the R&R teachings than I have gotten from TWI in the past 10 years. I also listen to other ministers, ordained or not - because I don't give much credence to that title - and I learn what I can learn from each of them. For me, it is the Word that matters, so I can easily distance myself from the organization and the individuals and just listen to the teachings.
I really am hopeful that you are incorrect about R&R, but if you are not I will realize it and I will take appropriate action to protect myself. But so far none of them have propounded VPW's views on managing a ministry. In fact, they have taken a completely different course in running their group. And, while they do occasionally mention something he taught, what they mention is backed up in the Word, and that's all that matters to me.
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Twinky
Welcome, Taxidev. Think you already have a coffee. Nice to chat with you.
It's going to be interesting to hear what a current innie has to say. Don't let aggressive comments from some here put you off.
And, Taxidev, good that you find you can also learn from the R&R lot, but don't let that stop you from exploring what others have to say. There are good (and not so good) teachings and sermons in churches and on the net. If you listen to those outside of TWI kinda of thinking, your hackles will rise and your mind will start "correcting " what you hear. But stick with it, and you may gain some different perspectives. Take nothing and no one as being completely 100% accurate. They're all doing their best with what they know now (unless they are knowing scammers). They, like you, are free to reassess.
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So_crates
This always amazes me. They wreck how many lives? They abuse how many people? They refuse to listen to their iniquities for how many years? Then, when it's obvious the ship is sinking, they think all it takes is a an apology and all will be fogiven and it'll all go back to business as usual.
Tell me, if somebody robs your house, you may forgive them, but are you gonna let the front door unlocked? If someone stole money from you, you may forgive them, but are you going to let your cash lay around when they come visiting?
If they were sincerely sorry, they would resign and put the ministry in the hands of someone who will run it the way the claim they will.
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Taxidev
So,
I understand, they did some pretty crappy things, many that are difficult to forget. I didn't experience that crap, but I am still at arm's length. I don't easily entrench myself, and I am in no rush to be committed to an organization. But so far, I like what they are doing. I'm sure it is BECAUSE I didn't experience what you did that I am able to approach them without judgement. I believe everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves, and by their fruits they will be known.
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So_crates
What I experience was nothing compared to what many others in this forum experienced.
However, as to proving themselves.
How much of a chance did they give a person to prove themself before a facemelting? Before they marked and avoided them?
They've had plenty of opportunity to prove themselves, years and years of opportunities. How many people do you think approached them to tell them where they were off and, rather than listen to them, they had those people marked and avoided?
The Scorpion And The Frog
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out. But in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “It’s my nature…”
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JayDee
“Pretty crappy” doesn’t come close to the evil these folks were/are a part of. And because you “didn’t experience” what they did makes it no less evil. These folks have been known “by their fruits”. For decades. That’s why you’re being warned. Could they change and repent? I honestly don’t know. Their video that’s been viewed here at GSC didn’t indicate any change of heart IMO.
You mentioned Vince Finnegan in another comment. My suggestion is to search him here at GSC and you’ll find out all you want to know about him. I trust you’ll take the time.
Again, thanks for taking your time to post here. Your insights into both groups are appreciated.
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OldSkool
To be clear on my position with RnR, i am waiting to see. I have no judgement or bitterness in my heart towards them, or anyone for that matter. I need to relisten to the teachings. Some of the leadership were my peers when i was cabinet and i didnt fit the mold then either. Im surprised many of them grew a pair and stood up to rosie, that took guts, or maybe shes so old now they thought granny would roll over and play retired.....lol....either way. If their movement is from the Lord Jesus Christ time will tell. Glad your here!
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hi Taxidev. Welcome to the Spot!
"They have admitted such. And they have expressed their apologies and sorrow for having done any harm to anyone. While they are all adults, they did think they were doing the right thing. Being deceived was not an easy thing to recognize and acknowledge, but that is what they have done. And they have asked for forgiveness."
"I don't have a long history with many of these people, but the ones I know personally are incredible men of God, with a strong stand on the Word as opposed to any organization or individual, other then Jesus Christ. It is because of those individuals that I know personally that I am following what they are doing and teaching. I see here that many of you have a plethora of negative experiences with many of them, but I don't. Maybe that's why I am more willing to give them a chance to prove themselves."
I have been reading with interest, your several posts concerning R&R. You do have a unique, and much closer view of both TWIt and it's latest Offshoot, R&R, as they exist today, and your firsthand experiences with some of the major actors in both cults. I quoted the first two paragraphs of a post you posted early yesterday morning, because imo, it effectively summarizes your baseline opinions and attitudes toward TWIt and R&R, and it sparked some thoughts on my part that may expand your knowledge of facts which you are most likely not aware of.
You say you got involved in TWIt in 1995. By that time Boob and Doody MoneyHands and Michael Fort had already been involved with TWIT for 25 plus years. Moyneyhands officiated at my wedding in 1973, and was in-rez with my wife and I for the one year the 3rd corpse was in-rez with the 4th. Boob and Doody were made "honorary" 3rd corpse grads after that year. Boob got ordained in the fall of 1970 at HQ by dictor Paul in the BRC along with John Lynn and Steve Heefner. Heefner went to The Way East (NY and New England), Lynn to IN, and Moyneyhands to NC and the ECU Way Home. Later, when dictor paul pulled his silent coup/takeover of the Way East in March of 1972, firing Heefner and replacing him with none other than Boob and Doody, I was a full-time TWIt employee at The Way of Long Island.
I had first been to ECU in March, 1971 for a "Youth Advance". I went down with Pressed Down and Steve Heefner from NY. That's where I first met Boob and Doody. Then, I was a full-time Branch Leader in Queens/Brooklyn under Steve Perez, when Boob came to be the hatchet-man for dic's putsch. Heefner was fired, Perez quit, and the full-timers in Long Island and NYC all quit and got jobs. That is when my 16 year interaction with boob and Doody began.
You said they have apologized with sorrow "for any harm they have done to anyone". Well, they did great harm to me and my family 22 years before you ever heard of TWIt'n'Piffle. I confronted them. They NEVER repented, not to this day nor have they ever apologized.
They were adults alright, but they were NOT DECEIVED! They knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and why they were doing it. They knew EVERYTHING and I KNOW what they knew because I confronted them, and da Forehead, and the board of trustees personally for 9 months at HQ in 1986, right up to when I resigned in December of that year. They repeatedly and willingly lied to cover for Wierwille, both dic and Donnie, Howard Allen, Da Forehead and BellaDonna, Rosalie Rivenbark, THEMSELVES and all their ECU pals, who were just loving dic's Ephesians license to sin teachings. I have shared numerous incidents of their lying, manipulative phony "counseling", covering up for all the scores and scores of abusive sex acts committed by their moggie pals, contributing directly to suicides among those who had been raped or molested by their BOT and other "top leadership", in order to guard their "lockboxes" and the man-o-gawd. There are numerous posts for you to review here Taxidev, should you want to know more facts. They did that for 20 years before you ever heard of TWIt! Do you realize how many VICTIMS they have yet to apologize to???
Fortunately for you, you "don't have a long history with many of these people." I do, and let me assure you, these "incredible men of God" are exactly THAT! INCREDIBLE! They are liars. They have been participants in and guardians of the very behaviors you say they "independently" and concurrently arrived at a biblical consensus about, thus condemning everything they themselves gleefully participated in for 25 years before you ever met them. There can be no genuine forgiveness to elders in the church without their genuine repentance (Matt 18). They never asked me for forgiveness. That's what Jesus taught, but that's only "for your learning, it's not TO you"! LOL!
They were not deceived. Not since 1972! And they STILL lie. They're still guilty. And, so are the Forts, and the Horneys. I know plenty of their facts too. They have not apologized to me nor asked for my forgiveness. It's been 31 years since I last confronted them face-to-face. I wrote them a letter and submitted 16 separate questions for their FB dog'n'pony show last May. Never answered any one of them. I did get a response from incredible boob though! I posted it here. It was, "Hi Ralph." Many of us here do have a "plethora" of nasty experiences with your pals at R&R. We ate their rotten "fruit" for 20 years before you got to personally know how incredible they are. They "proved themselves" as pimps and whores for 20 years before they pimped you. They got more "consideration" by far, than they ever even considered having for those they helped destroy through 48 years of faithful TWIt service. There are dead human beings on their "bema list"! I think their bema time will be a helluva lot of "I never knew you(s)" and very few, if any, "rewards". Looking forward to your thoughts Taxidev..............peace.
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chockfull
Some of that R&R leadership group were willing participants in many of the types of misdeeds we have cataloged here including the sexual swinger's club at the top level. While I appreciate their words of contrition, their actions right now exactly mirror the Way's. Whitewash their past, while securing their future by starting a new ministry utilizing their teaching credentials and connections from the past.
Starting a new splinter group is not a new thing. There's even threads on "How to Start a Cult" around here, giving pointers to better ways. Some of the old wineskin groups are less harmful than others of the old wineskin groups. For example, I remember talking to Shr0yer and Cl@pp when they left and started CFFM. That's the last group to leave the Way and teach all the good stuff but remove all the bad stuff. I guess they weren't good buddies enough with this group leaving and Shr0yer left it as an inheritance to Tonya his daughter so they can't have the same power over there. So instead joining that group, they need to found a new splinter. So they can have power and influence again. It is another variation of serving their own belly as the Bible states. Their primary interests are their "position" - in society, in this new group they are founding. They are the leaders, the founders, the head cheeses in charge.
I mean why couldn't they realize so much about their training is messed up and have the humility to allow others with better training to lead? Like joining a church locally. Or mixing it up with other Christians in the body of Christ. But no, they gravitate towards those that treat them with the same status they had in the Way.
It's a ministry founded on alligator tears and fake contrition.
It is as Jesus taught, an old wineskin.
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penguin2
I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse. I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I was that torn up about having misled people either into the lies or deeper into the lies and slavery of twi. I spent several years after I left reevaluating ALL of my beliefs. I think anyone who leaves needs time to decompress and reevaluate. I wouldn't even read KJV because of the ruts in my brain that led to twi beliefs. I'm still in process.
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Allan
Taxidev, as someone who has a bro-in-law directly involved in leadership and the COUNTLESS wrongs he has done to my family and I and others ( including a number of women..I think you get the drift ) I will let you know when we get an apology from him and his wife ! That might tell me something about this r & r group and their motives. That it's taken them 20 years to jump ship ( After the LCM fiasco speaks volumes to me. IMO, they are all a bunch of used up hacks that have realised they aint gonna be getting any support from twi as their sunset years fast approach so are going to use what abs they have for themselves and THEIR families....
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OldSkool
Its taken me nearly 10 years to find myself after the corps and being mistreated by the directors. Please pm me if theres anything i can do or help with. Ive learned to be a listener instead of a lecturer. I wish u all the best!
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socks
If I had a buck for every person I've counseled who got bad advice and counseling from Moynihan I could buy us both a couple of dinners at the Wooden Shoe Inn, DWB.
None of us were perfect, every one of us in the earliest years you're referring to had challenges, made mistakes. Every one of us got our butts kicked more than once, and deservedly so, in order to get our attention and get us moving in the right direction when we weren't. We were young and learning.
The problem with guys like him is they never got the foundation set right. He and Dottie came into the Corps with previous seniority from NC pending evaluation. After the first few months they and several others were bumped into the 3rd Corps and graduated with a year of "Corps training". They were nice but they were skidding - I'll never forget the BS he gave my wife and I after we discussed his a situation I'd observed, and questioned his handling of it. All I wanted was to see it set right, and I was more than willing to talk about it to help, if I could. Instead he blamed ME for not being "spiritually" minded enough to see how he was right....a tactic that became all too common for him as the years progressed. It seemed minor, we moved on - until it blew up in the people's face later that year, as his "counseling" to them failed. He completely disconnected from any involvement or responsibility. He did the same kind of thing for many years after that. He was also famous for never getting his facts straight and making excuses it didn't matter, later.
Another thing I learned early on about most of the self declared heavies from the early Corps was that most of them were not successful at witnessing, signing people up for PFAL and under shepherding them over time which was the basic thing being promoted at that time - sign 'em up, get 'em in.. They crowed about everyone else being able to do it and castigated failures but many of the assignments they got they didn't have the kind of godly revival that was seen in the early years in the West and East Coast fellowships, Kansas, and other places, they TALKED a lot about it, "taught", telling others what they should do but were not successful at doing it when it came to actual outreach. 1000's of people heard the Word of God and the "signs, miracles and wonders" abounded, confirming the preaching of Jesus Christ. Frankly I was so youthfully dumb at the time I just assumed "they" knew something I didn't when it was the reverse. Charlene talks about this in her book - if you read in and remember what it was like, it becomes painfully obvious. Picture Donnie Fugit, who just "did it", versus other guys who were more interested in "teaching" ad infinitum what was already in PFAL, while there were assuming positions in the ministry.
Did I love Bob - do I today? Absolutely. But everything I've seen and read they've stated they finally saw was "wrong" was wrong for many years prior. I was not happy to see all those people who turned a cold shoulder to God and His people and stayed on there for so many years. Taking all those years to see what they were doing was wrong, they're in need of very very serious rehab. Give them ample space and time to do that.
I remember a guy years ago - he'd been a long standing supporter of the Way for years after many of us had left. His wife had dropped out of active participation, he still had half a leg in and it was either on GS or WayDale where he finally posted a copy of a letter he had just sent to Rosalie. It had the tone of - "you know me, I'm a Corps grad, long time supporter and you know how I love the ministry and support it financially and now here I am, I have some recommendations that I think would help you be a better ministry". He offered to come there, meet with her and discuss these things. He expected a positive response - after all, it was HIM, right? They would listen to him, right? He got a turn down and was ignored beyond that, as he reported it - and he was SHOCKED! Why? Because he had the feeling many others had had before him - hey, it's ME, I'm with you on this, I just want to help....!
When I saw how this most recent group had bailed out, domino style, what they wrote about it reminded me of the same thing, adding of course that they'd been poking needles in anything that acted legitimate for years themselves. The only good news is they disconnected, for whatever reasons. Time will tell where that leads them.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Dearest Socks!
I love you and Mrs. Socks, and verify EVERYTHING you posted. WE were there. Before we were in the 4th together! YOU KNOW what you're talking about and I KNOW and can verify everything you say regarding events we shared together. "You can lead a horse to water son, but you cannot make him drink." Read and learn Greasespotters.! The Socks know whereof they speak!
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penworks
Love you, Socks and DWBH!
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DontWorryBeHappy
Right back atchya Penworks!!
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