This is a question that many bring up to us agnotstics and atheists. IMO it is a question that is quite telling.
(sorry, Chuck, I don't have time right now to read your link)
Telling in that it seems to assume that the only reason to live good lives and do good things is out of fear or bribery. Not out of love that is for sure...and this from Christians. As if the only reason to love and feel compassion is because the "one true, loving God" has commanded you to. Are there no other reasons to be a good person? Empathy, compassion, sympathy, love, civil responsibility, parenting, goodness kindness, do they mean absolutely nothing to you outside of the context of God? If so that is quite frightening.
Imagine for a second that there are no eternal rewards, no extra-natural being promising another world, and try to see if you can see any benefit to being good to your neighbor. Maybe even treating them the same way you would like to be treated.
You may come up with only seemingly selfish reasons, but there is nothing wrong with that.
My belief system is not without paradoxes. But to the rational mind faith in God and the supernatural are a paradox.
I have read that God hides himself, putting on us the job of seeking him. When he does so, evil invariably comes to cloud our vision.
So free will is a part, although I am not a true Arminianist. Predestination plays a part, although I am not a true Calivnist.
So if there is a choice between God and evil, shouldn't people get to go where there hearts take them? Isn't that fair?
Because if God is going to forcibly change people, then why not start now?
We love him, because he first loved us. We reach out to others, because we can see what will happen to them if they don't believe.
We hold ropes to rescue others, praying no one should feel the flames. But we know some will turn their back on God, deny he even exists and fight against God and his people.
We pray for them up to death, after that it is in God's hand.
They may not sin any more, but the punishment for their sin is just beginning. Without God and without hope. (the bible does say that)
This is a question that many bring up to us agnotstics and atheists. IMO it is a question that is quite telling.
(sorry, Chuck, I don't have time right now to read your link)
Telling in that it seems to assume that the only reason to live good lives and do good things is out of fear or bribery. Not out of love that is for sure...and this from Christians. As if the only reason to love and feel compassion is because the "one true, loving God" has commanded you to. Are there no other reasons to be a good person? Empathy, compassion, sympathy, love, civil responsibility, parenting, goodness kindness, do they mean absolutely nothing to you outside of the context of God? If so that is quite frightening.
Imagine for a second that there are no eternal rewards, no extra-natural being promising another world, and try to see if you can see any benefit to being good to your neighbor. Maybe even treating them the same way you would like to be treated.
You may come up with only seemingly selfish reasons, but there is nothing wrong with that.
Lindy without a concept of a supernatural force, we are left to follow nature and that is a world that is too cruel for me.
Those concepts you offer are proof to me of a loving God who has taught us how to care for one another. But when leave him out of the picture, then our hearts turn cold and barbaric.
But Chuck, did you notice his prayer at the end? He believes Jesus died and was rose again to defeat sin and bring salvation to the world.
That's different than what you believe isn't it? So why don't you measure up to this man's beliefs?
Like hell that's different! What the goddamn hell do you think we've been arguing about you idiot? I do in fact measure up to that man's beliefs, and when I do you give me an ungodly hassle over it. Are you too stupid to see that? Or are you just a plain hypocrite?
You don't believe Jesus brought salvation to the world, you believe he brought it to believers only. And you don't believe that Jesus died and rose again to defeat sin and Satan. It's clear and manifest in your eternal torment beliefs. I see now that you are mentally unstable.
You have not forgiven everyone, for the simple reason is that you don't love everyone. This is why you have excluded a great deal of people from salvation.
Also in that prayer he asked God to help him receive his UNCONDITIONAL love, that he may learn to give it to others.. YOU don't believe God's love is unconditional! You have placed too many conditions on it. Maybe you should pray that same prayer yourself.
Like you said Def, man has free will, and you have demonstrated what you would do by your free will in the absence of a hell-fire warning. You should be shot because you are just plain evil.
"But when leave him out of the picture, then our hearts turn cold and barbaric."
Yeah, like when the good Christians of England and France went off to kill the infidels that were living in the "holy" city of Jerusalem. Or when the good Catholics of Spain and France decided it would be a good thing to torture everyone who didn't believe properly, in order to save their souls. Or the countless religious persectutions over the centuries of people whose only crime was not believing "properly".
How many wars have been started because some good, Godly man decided it was time to put an end to evil?
Give me a decent, pragmatic atheist any day.
Or a sun-worshipper, maybe a Wiccan, anything but a good, Godly fundamentalist...
But when leave him out of the picture, then our hearts turn cold and barbaric.
Here, George, you see the standard 'atheists have no morals because they have no god' propaganda song-and-dance. And so many people believe it w/o questioning it, because if they actually thought about it, that line of 'reasoning' would be absurd on its face. And for a lot more reasons than you gave. Especially if they *knew* someone who was moral and caring, ... and an atheist. ;)-->
Chuck, Chuck, calm down, man! Def ain't evil or mentally unstable. Just has a different POV, that's all.
Repeat the following to yourself. It's ONLY a message board, ... only a message board, ... only a message board.
Like hell that's different! What the goddamn hell do you think we've been arguing about you idiot? I do in fact measure up to that man's beliefs, and when I do you give me an ungodly hassle over it. Are you too stupid to see that? Or are you just a plain hypocrite?
You don't believe Jesus brought salvation to the world, you believe he brought it to believers only. And you don't believe that Jesus died and rose again to defeat sin and Satan. It's clear and manifest in your eternal torment beliefs. I see now that you are mentally unstable.
You have not forgiven everyone, for the simple reason is that you don't love everyone. This is why you have excluded a great deal of people from salvation.
Wow. I guess you told him. -->
That's the problem when one gets too invested in some tightly wrapped belief system. Discussions turn into...this. Look folks, none of us really know, okay?
But when leave him out of the picture, then our hearts turn cold and barbaric.
Here, George, you see the standard 'atheists have no morals because they have no god' propaganda song-and-dance. And so many people believe it w/o questioning it, because if they actually thought about it, that line of 'reasoning' would be absurd on its face. And for a lot more reasons than you gave. Especially if they *knew* someone who was moral and caring, ... and an atheist. ;)-->
Chuck, Chuck, calm down, man! Def ain't evil or mentally unstable. Just has a different POV, that's all.
Repeat the following to yourself. It's ONLY a message board, ... only a message board, ... only a message board.
Garth, yes it's only my POV and it's only a message board.
But look at history when atheists rule and tell me how much better society becomes. You claim morals, fine and dandy, we should all have morals. But where did we learn them, from nature — where mom eats dad or kids or kids eat each other?
Or maybe our cultures remembered some rules for living they got from ancestors who talked with God. Again, it's my POV.
Like you said Def, man has free will, and you have demonstrated what you would do by your free will in the absence of a hell-fire warning. You should be shot because you are just plain evil.
OK, Chuck wants me killed. Does this violate GS rules? Can Pawtucket intervene?
"But when leave him out of the picture, then our hearts turn cold and barbaric."
Yeah, like when the good Christians of England and France went off to kill the infidels that were living in the "holy" city of Jerusalem. Or when the good Catholics of Spain and France decided it would be a good thing to torture everyone who didn't believe properly, in order to save their souls. Or the countless religious persectutions over the centuries of people whose only crime was not believing "properly".
How many wars have been started because some good, Godly man decided it was time to put an end to evil?
How many of the godly men were so godly? Better yet, how many godless men and women have started wars?
Give me a decent, pragmatic atheist any day.
Oh, like Lenin, Stalin, Adolph, Fidel, Madelyn perhaps. Your argument fails George because what those people did was not Christian. They committed a great sin. But atheists have killed far more people than religionists and that was in the 20th century alone.
Or a sun-worshipper, maybe a Wiccan, anything but a good, Godly fundamentalist...
Rome had its sun-worshipers and they committed great evil. Wiccans commit evil acts too. All this proves is we are people in need of a Savior.
But Chuck, did you notice his prayer at the end? He believes Jesus died and was rose again to defeat sin and bring salvation to the world.
That's different than what you believe isn't it? So why don't you measure up to this man's beliefs?
Like hell that's different! What the goddamn hell do you think we've been arguing about you idiot? I do in fact measure up to that man's beliefs, and when I do you give me an ungodly hassle over it. Are you too stupid to see that? Or are you just a plain hypocrite?
You don't believe Jesus brought salvation to the world, you believe he brought it to believers only. And you don't believe that Jesus died and rose again to defeat sin and Satan. It's clear and manifest in your eternal torment beliefs. I see now that you are mentally unstable.
You have not forgiven everyone, for the simple reason is that you don't love everyone. This is why you have excluded a great deal of people from salvation.
Also in that prayer he asked God to help him receive his UNCONDITIONAL love, that he may learn to give it to others.. YOU don't believe God's love is unconditional! You have placed too many conditions on it. Maybe you should pray that same prayer yourself.
Chuck, why are you so angry? It seems you are so intolerant of any other belief system that it must bring you into a rage. I never intended to hassle you and I wish we could discuss this peacefully.
But Chuck, you do not read what I say.
I believe Jesus is our savior, the way to the Father.
I believe he died for the sins of the whole world, and that salvation is available for all.
I also believe that not all will believe and that God will not force it on anyone to believe. He wants us to come to him freely and out of that desire, a love develops.
The god you believe in seems to cast spells to get people to believe.
I believe God puts clues and signs letting people know he's there. We just have to be diligent to keep looking for him.
We have creation, nature and his Word.
You have one word and your whole belief rests on one word. That's shaky to me.
Besides, who says you are right, or that I am.
I have been praying to God for you and all GSers and me that he would give understanding.
How many of the godly men were so godly? Better yet, how many godless men and women have started wars?
....
Give me a decent, pragmatic atheist any day.
Oh, like Lenin, Stalin, Adolph, Fidel, Madelyn perhaps. Your argument fails George because what those people did was not Christian. They committed a great sin. But atheists have killed far more people than religionists and that was in the 20th century alone.
Interesting how when it comes to religious people doing the war/abuse starting, you make exceptions for them, or give the standard "Well, they weren't really godly people who were doing this" white-wash. Yet when it comes to an atheist doing the same thing, I notice that the response is different. Ie., you portray it as atheism as being causal and part-and-parcel to the abusive activity.
Sorry! No can do. Gotta stick with a little bit of honest consistancy here. And a couple of corrections to make:
1) Adolph wasn't an atheist. His belief system was a rather wierd morph of Catholicism and Nordic spiritualism that looks like its been put together using drugs. --> But since he did believe in some sort of spirit world, that rules him out as an atheist, as atheists believe in NO spirit world.
2) Contrary to popular Billy Graham-inspired political dogma that many people goosestep to, atheism is, at most, incidental to Communism. Ie., the reason Communist states persecuted/controlled the churches, like they persecuted any other social structure/group of significant size, was to eliminate any and all competitors to power, NOT with any specific 'atheist intent' to eradicate religion. If that were true, then there would be NO churches left in those specific countries. At all. (Just like the same thing happened in Nazi Germany. And see my aforementioned item regarding Adolph's beliefs.)
Plus, if atheism is so related/alike to Communism, please explain to me why a good number of atheists in this country are Ayn Rand Objectivists and/or Libertarians? (Neil Boortz, anyone?) If you know anything about those POVs, one thing you do NOT say about them is that they are Communist. Not to their face, anyway.
3) For whatever loud mouth she undoubtedly had, Madelyn Murray O'Hare killed ... no one. She herself was killed however, and I don't believe it was by an atheist. Hmmm?
The difference between atheism and religion isn't how many people each group might have killed or not perse, but on whether or not a god is believed in. And that is as far as it goes, regardless of whatever 'all unbelievers are vile and immoral trash' propaganda you have been spoon fed.
Oh, and as to your point on where atheists have learned their morals, and to the strong undercurrent of your argument that, without God, they can learn no morals? Morals can be determined by realizing/learning of such activities that bring no harm to people and/or bring the most benefit to people.
You do not need a god to do that. ... No, you don't.
Like you said Def, man has free will, and you have demonstrated what you would do by your free will in the absence of a hell-fire warning. You should be shot because you are just plain evil.
OK, Chuck wants me killed. Does this violate GS rules? Can Pawtucket intervene?
Don't you know rhetoric when you see it? I guess Jesus would be guilty of violating GS rules too when he said that child molesters should have a weight wrapped around their necks and chucked into the sea.
Def, you are obviously so paranoid that you failed to see the rhetoric that was intended. If Paw wants to edit that post, that would be fine with me.
And what Garth posted is why Jesus judged good vs bad based on actual tangible fruit and not merely on words that one espouses.
"By their fruit ye shall know them".
Amen, Mark! Now Def is talking about how I actually hate him, and I say he is full of hate. You'd think with 2 people being full of hate, they would actually have fellowship! LOL :D--> I pointed out to Def in a rhetorical fashion that in the absence of hell, his true nature would stick out (and this is obviously his principle), so much so that he should be shot. He took it as a threat, which is was not. He is obviously paranoid, so much so that he failed to see that statement as nothing more than the rhetoric it was intended to be. (If Paw wants to edit that post in question, fine with me.)
There does exist a few groups who beleive that only if you beleive that that you are mortal and must one day face a supreme being, can you be trusted.
Since if you beleive that there is no rewards or penaltys for bad behavior then you can not be trusted. Since you obviously don't care about your behavior here.
If you beleive that you will one day face your creator, then you can be trusted to keep your word and to try and act within 'due-bounds'.
Chuck, I try to ignore the occasional argument between posters. Except when they drag out and go for a long time. I am sure that you were talking figuratively to make a point, but could we please all get along here?
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CM
That's a long answer....
Not to put down Def's answer but here's a short one....
Cause of what you have to go through when the Lord comes....and he will sooner or later to everyone.
Peace
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lindyhopper
This is a question that many bring up to us agnotstics and atheists. IMO it is a question that is quite telling.
(sorry, Chuck, I don't have time right now to read your link)
Telling in that it seems to assume that the only reason to live good lives and do good things is out of fear or bribery. Not out of love that is for sure...and this from Christians. As if the only reason to love and feel compassion is because the "one true, loving God" has commanded you to. Are there no other reasons to be a good person? Empathy, compassion, sympathy, love, civil responsibility, parenting, goodness kindness, do they mean absolutely nothing to you outside of the context of God? If so that is quite frightening.
Imagine for a second that there are no eternal rewards, no extra-natural being promising another world, and try to see if you can see any benefit to being good to your neighbor. Maybe even treating them the same way you would like to be treated.
You may come up with only seemingly selfish reasons, but there is nothing wrong with that.
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def59
Good article.
I agree, too much legalism has taken the joy out of Chrisitianity. God calls his children saints, not sinners.
I love God with all my heart as best as I can do and knowing I can do more as I allow more of Him in my life.
But some fear is healthy, because without it, we would all be dead from doing stupid things.
But Chuck, did you notice his prayer at the end? He believes Jesus died and was rose again to defeat sin and bring salvation to the world.
That's different than what you believe isn't it? So why don't you measure up to this man's beliefs?
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def59
Here's where we are at.
My belief system is not without paradoxes. But to the rational mind faith in God and the supernatural are a paradox.
I have read that God hides himself, putting on us the job of seeking him. When he does so, evil invariably comes to cloud our vision.
So free will is a part, although I am not a true Arminianist. Predestination plays a part, although I am not a true Calivnist.
So if there is a choice between God and evil, shouldn't people get to go where there hearts take them? Isn't that fair?
Because if God is going to forcibly change people, then why not start now?
We love him, because he first loved us. We reach out to others, because we can see what will happen to them if they don't believe.
We hold ropes to rescue others, praying no one should feel the flames. But we know some will turn their back on God, deny he even exists and fight against God and his people.
We pray for them up to death, after that it is in God's hand.
They may not sin any more, but the punishment for their sin is just beginning. Without God and without hope. (the bible does say that)
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CM
posted by lindy-
Not fear or bribery but just the way it is.
Like your post though.
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CM
btw-I didn't read all of that long answer myself.
But I think things are simple and uncomplicated.
They have to be for me to get it.
The Lord will come, not something to fear to those doing right.
Jesus talked about his coming a lot.
I won't quote the scriptures,
everyone here can read I reckon.
Simple - yeah
When will he come?
For each individual there will be a time for it.
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def59
Lindy without a concept of a supernatural force, we are left to follow nature and that is a world that is too cruel for me.
Those concepts you offer are proof to me of a loving God who has taught us how to care for one another. But when leave him out of the picture, then our hearts turn cold and barbaric.
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CKnapp3
Like hell that's different! What the goddamn hell do you think we've been arguing about you idiot? I do in fact measure up to that man's beliefs, and when I do you give me an ungodly hassle over it. Are you too stupid to see that? Or are you just a plain hypocrite?
You don't believe Jesus brought salvation to the world, you believe he brought it to believers only. And you don't believe that Jesus died and rose again to defeat sin and Satan. It's clear and manifest in your eternal torment beliefs. I see now that you are mentally unstable.
You have not forgiven everyone, for the simple reason is that you don't love everyone. This is why you have excluded a great deal of people from salvation.
Also in that prayer he asked God to help him receive his UNCONDITIONAL love, that he may learn to give it to others.. YOU don't believe God's love is unconditional! You have placed too many conditions on it. Maybe you should pray that same prayer yourself.
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CKnapp3
Like you said Def, man has free will, and you have demonstrated what you would do by your free will in the absence of a hell-fire warning. You should be shot because you are just plain evil.
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Oakspear
But if he was shot for his plain-evilness would he still be saved?
-->
I was told a few months back that I should be shot for conducting a panty raid.
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George Aar
"But when leave him out of the picture, then our hearts turn cold and barbaric."
Yeah, like when the good Christians of England and France went off to kill the infidels that were living in the "holy" city of Jerusalem. Or when the good Catholics of Spain and France decided it would be a good thing to torture everyone who didn't believe properly, in order to save their souls. Or the countless religious persectutions over the centuries of people whose only crime was not believing "properly".
How many wars have been started because some good, Godly man decided it was time to put an end to evil?
Give me a decent, pragmatic atheist any day.
Or a sun-worshipper, maybe a Wiccan, anything but a good, Godly fundamentalist...
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GarthP2000
Here, George, you see the standard 'atheists have no morals because they have no god' propaganda song-and-dance. And so many people believe it w/o questioning it, because if they actually thought about it, that line of 'reasoning' would be absurd on its face. And for a lot more reasons than you gave. Especially if they *knew* someone who was moral and caring, ... and an atheist.
;)-->
Chuck, Chuck, calm down, man! Def ain't evil or mentally unstable. Just has a different POV, that's all.
Repeat the following to yourself. It's ONLY a message board, ... only a message board, ... only a message board.
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TheEvan
Wow. I guess you told him.
-->
That's the problem when one gets too invested in some tightly wrapped belief system. Discussions turn into...this. Look folks, none of us really know, okay?
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CM
I agree with TheEvan.
Stay flexible...we all just know in part as Paul said.
Staying dead set on one thing stops it from growing and unfolding on it's own.
The truth brings Peace as some of it's fruit.
No need to get all up in arms about it when someone thinks differently.
One day we will know even as we are known...
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def59
Garth, yes it's only my POV and it's only a message board.
But look at history when atheists rule and tell me how much better society becomes. You claim morals, fine and dandy, we should all have morals. But where did we learn them, from nature — where mom eats dad or kids or kids eat each other?
Or maybe our cultures remembered some rules for living they got from ancestors who talked with God. Again, it's my POV.
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def59
OK, Chuck wants me killed. Does this violate GS rules? Can Pawtucket intervene?
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def59
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def59
Chuck, why are you so angry? It seems you are so intolerant of any other belief system that it must bring you into a rage. I never intended to hassle you and I wish we could discuss this peacefully.
But Chuck, you do not read what I say.
I believe Jesus is our savior, the way to the Father.
I believe he died for the sins of the whole world, and that salvation is available for all.
I also believe that not all will believe and that God will not force it on anyone to believe. He wants us to come to him freely and out of that desire, a love develops.
The god you believe in seems to cast spells to get people to believe.
I believe God puts clues and signs letting people know he's there. We just have to be diligent to keep looking for him.
We have creation, nature and his Word.
You have one word and your whole belief rests on one word. That's shaky to me.
Besides, who says you are right, or that I am.
I have been praying to God for you and all GSers and me that he would give understanding.
If you want to hate me, that's your prerogative.
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GarthP2000
Def,
Now you are the one who needs to 'calm down'.
Interesting how when it comes to religious people doing the war/abuse starting, you make exceptions for them, or give the standard "Well, they weren't really godly people who were doing this" white-wash. Yet when it comes to an atheist doing the same thing, I notice that the response is different. Ie., you portray it as atheism as being causal and part-and-parcel to the abusive activity.
Sorry! No can do. Gotta stick with a little bit of honest consistancy here. And a couple of corrections to make:
1) Adolph wasn't an atheist. His belief system was a rather wierd morph of Catholicism and Nordic spiritualism that looks like its been put together using drugs.
--> But since he did believe in some sort of spirit world, that rules him out as an atheist, as atheists believe in NO spirit world.
2) Contrary to popular Billy Graham-inspired political dogma that many people goosestep to, atheism is, at most, incidental to Communism. Ie., the reason Communist states persecuted/controlled the churches, like they persecuted any other social structure/group of significant size, was to eliminate any and all competitors to power, NOT with any specific 'atheist intent' to eradicate religion. If that were true, then there would be NO churches left in those specific countries. At all. (Just like the same thing happened in Nazi Germany. And see my aforementioned item regarding Adolph's beliefs.)
Plus, if atheism is so related/alike to Communism, please explain to me why a good number of atheists in this country are Ayn Rand Objectivists and/or Libertarians? (Neil Boortz, anyone?) If you know anything about those POVs, one thing you do NOT say about them is that they are Communist. Not to their face, anyway.
3) For whatever loud mouth she undoubtedly had, Madelyn Murray O'Hare killed ... no one. She herself was killed however, and I don't believe it was by an atheist. Hmmm?
The difference between atheism and religion isn't how many people each group might have killed or not perse, but on whether or not a god is believed in. And that is as far as it goes, regardless of whatever 'all unbelievers are vile and immoral trash' propaganda you have been spoon fed.
Oh, and as to your point on where atheists have learned their morals, and to the strong undercurrent of your argument that, without God, they can learn no morals? Morals can be determined by realizing/learning of such activities that bring no harm to people and/or bring the most benefit to people.
You do not need a god to do that. ... No, you don't.
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Mark Sanguinetti
And what Garth posted is why Jesus judged good vs bad based on actual tangible fruit and not merely on words that one espouses.
"By their fruit ye shall know them".
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CKnapp3
Don't you know rhetoric when you see it? I guess Jesus would be guilty of violating GS rules too when he said that child molesters should have a weight wrapped around their necks and chucked into the sea.
Def, you are obviously so paranoid that you failed to see the rhetoric that was intended. If Paw wants to edit that post, that would be fine with me.
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CKnapp3
Amen, Mark! Now Def is talking about how I actually hate him, and I say he is full of hate. You'd think with 2 people being full of hate, they would actually have fellowship! LOL
:D--> I pointed out to Def in a rhetorical fashion that in the absence of hell, his true nature would stick out (and this is obviously his principle), so much so that he should be shot. He took it as a threat, which is was not. He is obviously paranoid, so much so that he failed to see that statement as nothing more than the rhetoric it was intended to be. (If Paw wants to edit that post in question, fine with me.)
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Galen
There does exist a few groups who beleive that only if you beleive that that you are mortal and must one day face a supreme being, can you be trusted.
Since if you beleive that there is no rewards or penaltys for bad behavior then you can not be trusted. Since you obviously don't care about your behavior here.
If you beleive that you will one day face your creator, then you can be trusted to keep your word and to try and act within 'due-bounds'.
I belong to a few such 'groups'.
:-)
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Mark Sanguinetti
Chuck, I try to ignore the occasional argument between posters. Except when they drag out and go for a long time. I am sure that you were talking figuratively to make a point, but could we please all get along here?
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