The plagiarism explains why there is no research department, why nobody can replicate the research, why nobody can explain the research, most importantly, why nobody can build on it.
It's just random stuff that sounded good to the mentality of ignorant, idealistic youth.
The plagiarism explains why there is no research department, why nobody can replicate the research, why nobody can explain the research, most importantly, why nobody can build on it.
It's just random stuff that sounded good to the mentality of ignorant, idealistic youth.
As was one of those ignorant, idealistic youths, I resemble that remark.
I spent many hours here dealing with many aspects of the plagiarism issue. Do you remember any of it?
Can you search the archives here with any skill ? I can’t. At first, for hundreds of plagiarism posts here I relied on what I had thought was something Dr said about it in person. But low and behold, one day dMiller posted (with great chagrin) an odd item that he had found “The Way – Living in Love.”
He had found the comment I had relied on, thinking it was just verbal.
There in print, circa 1972, Dr admitted that he hardly had anything original to offer, but that he was simply guided by God to find it in the works of other people.
HE ADMITTED IT IN WRITING!
For two years, again to dMiller’s chagrin, I quoted and re-quoted his post of Dr admitting that he had MOSTLY only “put it all together.”
I CONSTANTLY and RELENTLESSLY posted for 5 years many other points on copyrights and plagiarism no one liked, and that nobody had dealt with before, but were huge mitigating factors in this great plagiarism bug in your craw.
Can you find those posts in the archives on your own? Please?
At least try. Find that Elena Whiteside quote at least.
When you find that quote, posted here many times, where Dr admitted major non-originality, then maybe I’ll find the time to give you (again) the many more details that tell me the plagiarism issue is fake news! ... I blame it all on the Russians!
Public Announcement: The position of Kellyanne Conway for wierwille apologetics has been filled.
Mike, you can dispense with gloating over imaginary victories - past or present. None of us actually overheard your supposed conversation with John S – and I for one don’t give a flip what Indulgences or Sanctions he may have granted you regarding wierwille’s hodgepodge of plagiarized material.
And if the best you can do is claim Whiteside’s quote gets vpw off the hook - then why don’t you open your copy of her book and quote it here. You must have it along with all the PFAL books. Go ahead and post it – I’ll let you know if that is a correct citation – since I have The Way Living in Love book too – but I think you should put your money where your mouth is, instead of having us do your homework for you. By the way, copyright lawyers would have a field day with that quote alone! Probably one of the reasons TWI didn’t sell his books on the open market.
vpw was a plagiarist and pathological liar. vpw changed the details of his stories so many times - and now dead men tell no tales...What a tangled web of deception he had woven. If this makes any sense to folks still stuck in his web – escape while you can!
Actually, now that I think about it, the whole background for the Way instructing followers that "research means re-search" or searching out again what has already been discovered. Is this not a plagiarists manifesto? Is this not following in the footsteps of the mighty VP founder?
For VPW, "research" meant plagiarism. Like the time he checked himself into the motel and wrote Receiving the Holy Spirit Today on a diet of grapes? Why did he need the motel? So nobody could see him transcribing over 70% of JE Stiles book that he would later publish as his own?
Any old acid head can testify that some pretty convincing and entertaining counterfeits are available, just from some simple chemistry. What if the adversary wanted to bamboozle me with a counterfeit return? How could I know to reject it? AND, just as perplexing to me was the GENUINE Return. How, and when into it, will we know for sure it’s the real thing?
Stupid question?
Yes, a rather stupid question. Perhaps you should spend some time learning/thinking about what Paul meant by being "changed" in 1Cor. 15:51-52. If we (who are Christ's) are changed, then there won't be any question about whether or not you will know you are changed.
8 hours ago, Mike said:
Does anyone yet see how all this leads to Jesus teaching us out of the Orange Book?
So, you do or don't believe that Jesus Christ is God? And if not God, why suppose that he (Jesus) would need to teach us anything if we (then) know God on a face to face basis?
There in print, circa 1972, Dr admitted that he hardly had anything original to offer, but that he was simply guided by God to find it in the works of other people.
Like it hasn't been known since the first century, right?
Yeah, I too was adjoined to that line for way too long. Does a remarkably fine job of inflating (and maintaining) gigantic egos. But consider this, if you can. Given your obvious infatuation with what VPW said or taught, do you not also recall him saying that (to paraphrase), As the time for the fulfillment of prophecy draws near, a better understanding of it begins to unfold? However, if true, then isn't it reasonable (and logical) to think and say that since we are closer now then ever before, shouldn't (and wouldn't) there be (or is) better or greater understanding now than there was 60, 50, or 40, or even 30 years ago? Even if it there was (at that time) some truth in what you have evidently glued yourself to, why stick with it, when different (better) is available now?
We all start to learn about God and Christ by our five senses. If, as was supposed back then, that the purpose of having or "knowing" the Word of God was to teach people to walk by the spirit... at what point do you actually learn to walk by the spirit (i.e., believe the Living truth)?
Please allow me to ask roughly a similar question of you. Do you think there are any modern God-breathed documents given in modern English?
If not, wouldn't they be a great thing to have? Wouldn't a loving God want to provide us with such? How stingy would God have to be to insist we utilize scripture fragments, written in a dead language, from a time when the devil had some 3 or 4 hundred years of time to focus on scrambling?
The answer to your first question is, NO. To your second question, YES, but I doubt it would make much difference. Your other questions imply that God must not know what He's doing. But, as revealed by Isaiah, man's thoughts are not God's thoughts, and His ways are not man's ways.
Consider this, if you can, Mike. When God called out Abraham, and separated Israel from all the other nations of the world... giving them all the advantages that could possibly be given them (blessing those that bless them, cursing those that curse them, etc.), showing them signs, miracles, and wonders (more than can be recounted)... what did they lack? In a word, nothing. They had it all. Yet, with all that they had (probably more advantages than we can even imagine), they still failed to recognize and accept their Messiah (which God had explicitly promised would come.)
So, what was the point of God's separating them and giving them every advantage, above all the nations of the earth?
Well, to prove that they were no different. Man, by his five sense, just does not (nor can he ever) really know God, no matter what material knowledge or "tools" (however you want to think of it) he has or is given. Matter of fact, they had the God-breathed documents in the first century. What do you honestly think it did or accomplish for them? Peter (and the other 12 apostles) had a hard time understanding some of the things Paul wrote, even in their "perfect" format. Do you really think it would be any different today?
Mike, you said when Jesus returns he will have a copy of the "Orange" Book aka PFAL in his right hand. What drugs were you taking when having that hallucination dream?
I sort of half way through the answer to your question. (spoiler alert: it was coffee!)
Have you had a chance to read what I wrote so far? ...about that issue took on a life of it's own and got all distorted out of proportion? I'll resume my story soon.
Topic is: Is it okay to recommend Weirwille's books to others?
Not: Is it okay to continue Mike's soap opera? Puh-leeze!!! Though the soap opera might be entertaining for some of the newer people here, for a while.
Public Announcement: The position of Kellyanne Conway for wierwille apologetics has been filled.
Mike, you can dispense with gloating over imaginary victories - past or present. None of us actually overheard your supposed conversation with John S – and I for one don’t give a flip what Indulgences or Sanctions he may have granted you regarding wierwille’s hodgepodge of plagiarized material.
And if the best you can do is claim Whiteside’s quote gets vpw off the hook - then why don’t you open your copy of her book and quote it here. You must have it along with all the PFAL books. Go ahead and post it – I’ll let you know if that is a correct citation – since I have The Way Living in Love book too – but I think you should put your money where your mouth is, instead of having us do your homework for you. By the way, copyright lawyers would have a field day with that quote alone! Probably one of the reasons TWI didn’t sell his books on the open market.
vpw was a plagiarist and pathological liar. vpw changed the details of his stories so many times - and now dead men tell no tales...What a tangled web of deception he had woven. If this makes any sense to folks still stuck in his web – escape while you can!
Furthermore, Mike's tendency to re-imagine events or invent them wholesale is evident here. When we discussed TW:LiL, and the apologists were claiming that one offhand comment in one book was equal to the legal citing of sources in all the books in which this comment wasn't even mentioned, there were 3 posters who said that. If Mike posted on it at all, he was an incredibly minor voice, although he's now remembering himself as the main proponent who scored imaginary victories then also. (Yes, we've had a consistent pattern of that, too.)
Based on how he's consistently misrepresented his discussions here over the decades, I'd be truly shocked if his discussion with JS even RESEMBLED what he's said. As if any of us here care what JS said in between managing his splinter group.
After looking into it for a while, I decided to believe that the difficulties that happened in TWI were due NOT to the books, but to the verbal tradition and other practices that grew up that were contrary to the books contents. It was due to not knowing the books well enough that the problems ended up prevailing. There were times and places in the ministry where things went well, and I seek those factors.
Hmmm. Where this logic fails is in examining the current TWI. Rosie pretty much has every single teaching focused on collaterals content. And magazine articles too. For her, those books are more important to adhere to than actual Bible verses.
And the fruit of that over the last couple decades is pretty evident with all that R & R group is posting up about numbers lost, people not sticking around, no need for yearly Adv. classes, etc. I mean just listen to their music or one of their teachings for Christ's sake. It is bland. Vanilla. Boring. Ridicule inspiring. Mind-numbingly dull. The production around it with the swinging ladies of the burlap maternity dresses and the lack of a live drumkit on set for decades is really a reincarnation of the Lawrence Welk show in an elevator filtered into on stage mannequins.
HQ today is a cesspool of vipers all biting and devouring one another. Spying, reporting, people being bullied and fired like has happened forever. And out of that venomous snake pit comes the dullest product ever presented to mankind.
Maybe the books were a good part of the problem all along. Lack of scholastic effort and integrity. Along with what Veep modeled with the narcissism and abusive and criminal behavior. I mean watching Leah Remini recently and her Scientology library - those books and L. Ron Hubbard's insistence on getting them into everyone's hands has been the means for Scientology to amass $$$ and control people for a long time.
Overall, I'd say find a better Christian minister to model. One who is a little more involved with research and less involved with abuse. And don't go looking amongst the splinter societies for that either. That's just plain simple Jesus-parable-about-new-wine-and-old-wineskins advice.
I don’t think we’ve met, yet. But I do hear you, about negative experiences.
After looking into it for a while, I decided to believe that the difficulties that happened in TWI were due NOT to the books, but to the verbal tradition and other practices that grew up that were contrary to the books contents. It was due to not knowing the books well enough that the problems ended up prevailing....
Mike I beg to differ - the practices contrary to what is often stated in the PFAL books were introduced by vpw himself!
In PFAL , vpw taught the Bible means what it says and says what it means -
but
in person - whether explaining to the corps while showing his favorite porn video or when sexually molesting women in the corps - he reinterpreted verses to allow for his licentiousness- like unto the pure all things are pure - or anything done in the love of god is ok.... seems like that contradicts Bible verses that prohibit adultery.... guess vpw meant to say in the class the Bible means what I say it should mean
Thanks Rocky, for the search engine directions. My eyes are not what they used to be. :)
I will admit this again:
As for the JS objections, he was VERY reluctant and exasperated when he admitted he knew of nothing that corrupting in the books that would hurt me, and that there was a lot of good in them too, hence my “doing well.”NOT best, he emphasized.
You folks might face the same challenge he did and try to come up with page numbers and passages that are evil in the books and will corrupt me. JS was unable to do that.
Interestingly, after years of protesting TWI, the CES organization put out a ten year anniversary booklet or letter. Right at the top was an open admission that VPW did indeed come up with a unique package of teachings that taught the Word like it had not been known since the first century. They had to admit that because it’s true.
As for the books corrupting TWI:
I spent many hours here showing how many thing in the book were either over our heads or had slipped out of our memory. I also showed how the Twi Verbal Traditions (TVT) that grew up around and smothering the books was the true operating doctrine at TWI, not the books.
No time to resume my story right now. I’ll be back.
It's entirely possible that SOME of those evil TVTs were from VPW himself. He had sin, because we all do. There were times when he could miss the mark he had written down. It's not HIM that I look to, it's the revelations God gave him. I was often annoyed at his policy decisions. It may be some were necessary, and intended only to be temporary, but TWI later institutionalized them via the TVTs.
It's entirely possible that SOME of those evil TVTs were from VPW himself. He had sin, because we all do. There were times when he could miss the mark he had written down. It's not HIM that I look to, it's the revelations God gave him. I was often annoyed at his policy decisions. It may be some were necessary, and intended only to be temporary, but TWI later institutionalized them via the TVTs.
Perhaps you'd feel differently if you were one of his sexual victims...or if you were indoctrinated to put up with his filth via way corps training....
another thing - yes we are all sinners - but honestly I was never a sexual predator, adulterer or pathological liar, thief (like an unabashed plagiarist) or some other life-dominating sin. The Bible is very clear about the church NOT tolerating such willful, evil , rebellious, recurring behavior; yeah - like # 1 they should not be leading a church - can't picture god giving someone like that much revelation - it would be counterproductive- sending mixed messages to the church don't you think
T-Bone, you're right. If I had suffered more, I'd have had a more difficult time arriving at my position. The confusion I had to deal with DID delay me a good 11 or 12 years before I came back to PFAL and started working the deeper details in the books. I feel much for those who suffered more. I think also of how Uriah's relatives felt. Things get pretty complicated and murky at times.
T-Bone I also know that power corrupts. If I had a lot of power, my "missings of the mark" could have much more far reaching effects than they do now. This is just a guess, but I think it pretty well applies to all of us.
T-Bone, you're right. If I had suffered more, I'd have had a more difficult time arriving at my position. The confusion I had to deal with DID delay me a good 11 or 12 years before I came back to PFAL and started working the deeper details in the books. I feel much for those who suffered more. I think also of how Uriah's relatives felt.
Things get pretty complicated and murky at times.
You're way off base trying to put vpw in the same class as David...David was a legitimate leader of God's people; and to review what I said earlier - yes we are all sinners - but David was NOT a willful repeat gross offender like vpw a lying, thieving, sexual predator !
Seriously- vpw is in a special class of those with life-dominating sins that are addressed many different ways in the Bible - - so If you're looking for types in the Bible that are similar to vpw - try doing a study of false prophets and corrupt idolatrous leaders, nazi-type Pharisees, and sexual predators / adulterers.
i know this can be hard to understand for some - but if a person will try to think outside the conscience-numbing mindset prevalent in vpw's doctrine and practice- they might see the hypocrisy of assuming vpw was in the same class as David or other notable people in the Bible . And to elaborate on life-dominating sin - if a person is a willful repeat offender - the Bible indicates that person has "earned" the right to bear a particular title - i.e. Adulterer , thief, liar, etc.
it wouldn't hurt for some folks to step back and reevaluate their scale of values; imagine what a shocking and offensive impact it would have on someone not in TWI if I were to say to them "I'm in a non-denominational church - our leader is a plagiarist, adulterer , pathological liar, megalomaniac, and likes to molest young women, oh and he drinks a lot but he's teaching the word like it hasn't been know for centuries- wouldn't you like to go to church with me?"
Complicated and murky situations come from allowing lying, thriving, sexual predators run their little crazy-town kingdoms.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
T-Bone I also know that power corrupts. If I had a lot of power, my "missings of the mark" could have much more far reaching effects than they do now. This is just a guess, but I think it pretty well applies to all of us.
vpw was corrupt to begin with - he took it to new heights during the reign of his miserable "ministry".
I sincerely hope that those who are so enamored with vpw do not come into power in any situation - but the reality of offshoots and splinter groups tells me otherwise....that's one reason I continue the fight against corruption , false prophets, plagiarists, and sexual predators on Grease Spot
Mike - Vpw was corrupt. To quote Jeses teaching - a corrupt tree produces corrupt fruit.
Vpw legacy screams corrupt fruit. Adulterer, drunk, thief aka plagiarist, hypocrite, and especially sexual predator. So u think the work he stole and amalgamated into whats known as Plaf is good fruit?
He used godly works of other men to promote his own lusts and he had many lusts. Go to the original authors and study their works that vic stole. Take that material to scripture to see if it stands approved. But dont dishonor those authors that vpw ripped off by elelevating plaf in any way.
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Bolshevik
The plagiarism explains why there is no research department, why nobody can replicate the research, why nobody can explain the research, most importantly, why nobody can build on it.
It's just random stuff that sounded good to the mentality of ignorant, idealistic youth.
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waysider
As was one of those ignorant, idealistic youths, I resemble that remark.
Edited by waysiderclarity
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T-Bone
Public Announcement: The position of Kellyanne Conway for wierwille apologetics has been filled.
Mike, you can dispense with gloating over imaginary victories - past or present. None of us actually overheard your supposed conversation with John S – and I for one don’t give a flip what Indulgences or Sanctions he may have granted you regarding wierwille’s hodgepodge of plagiarized material.
And if the best you can do is claim Whiteside’s quote gets vpw off the hook - then why don’t you open your copy of her book and quote it here. You must have it along with all the PFAL books. Go ahead and post it – I’ll let you know if that is a correct citation – since I have The Way Living in Love book too – but I think you should put your money where your mouth is, instead of having us do your homework for you. By the way, copyright lawyers would have a field day with that quote alone! Probably one of the reasons TWI didn’t sell his books on the open market.
vpw was a plagiarist and pathological liar. vpw changed the details of his stories so many times - and now dead men tell no tales...What a tangled web of deception he had woven. If this makes any sense to folks still stuck in his web – escape while you can!
Edited by T-Boneclarity and impact
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chockfull
Actually, now that I think about it, the whole background for the Way instructing followers that "research means re-search" or searching out again what has already been discovered. Is this not a plagiarists manifesto? Is this not following in the footsteps of the mighty VP founder?
For VPW, "research" meant plagiarism. Like the time he checked himself into the motel and wrote Receiving the Holy Spirit Today on a diet of grapes? Why did he need the motel? So nobody could see him transcribing over 70% of JE Stiles book that he would later publish as his own?
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waysider
He was transcribing The Grapes of Rats.
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TLC
Yes, a rather stupid question. Perhaps you should spend some time learning/thinking about what Paul meant by being "changed" in 1Cor. 15:51-52. If we (who are Christ's) are changed, then there won't be any question about whether or not you will know you are changed.
So, you do or don't believe that Jesus Christ is God? And if not God, why suppose that he (Jesus) would need to teach us anything if we (then) know God on a face to face basis?
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TLC
Like it hasn't been known since the first century, right?
Yeah, I too was adjoined to that line for way too long. Does a remarkably fine job of inflating (and maintaining) gigantic egos. But consider this, if you can. Given your obvious infatuation with what VPW said or taught, do you not also recall him saying that (to paraphrase), As the time for the fulfillment of prophecy draws near, a better understanding of it begins to unfold? However, if true, then isn't it reasonable (and logical) to think and say that since we are closer now then ever before, shouldn't (and wouldn't) there be (or is) better or greater understanding now than there was 60, 50, or 40, or even 30 years ago? Even if it there was (at that time) some truth in what you have evidently glued yourself to, why stick with it, when different (better) is available now?
We all start to learn about God and Christ by our five senses. If, as was supposed back then, that the purpose of having or "knowing" the Word of God was to teach people to walk by the spirit... at what point do you actually learn to walk by the spirit (i.e., believe the Living truth)?
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TLC
The answer to your first question is, NO. To your second question, YES, but I doubt it would make much difference. Your other questions imply that God must not know what He's doing. But, as revealed by Isaiah, man's thoughts are not God's thoughts, and His ways are not man's ways.
Consider this, if you can, Mike. When God called out Abraham, and separated Israel from all the other nations of the world... giving them all the advantages that could possibly be given them (blessing those that bless them, cursing those that curse them, etc.), showing them signs, miracles, and wonders (more than can be recounted)... what did they lack? In a word, nothing. They had it all. Yet, with all that they had (probably more advantages than we can even imagine), they still failed to recognize and accept their Messiah (which God had explicitly promised would come.)
So, what was the point of God's separating them and giving them every advantage, above all the nations of the earth?
Well, to prove that they were no different. Man, by his five sense, just does not (nor can he ever) really know God, no matter what material knowledge or "tools" (however you want to think of it) he has or is given. Matter of fact, they had the God-breathed documents in the first century. What do you honestly think it did or accomplish for them? Peter (and the other 12 apostles) had a hard time understanding some of the things Paul wrote, even in their "perfect" format. Do you really think it would be any different today?
Edited by TLCspelling
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Mike, you said when Jesus returns he will have a copy of the "Orange" Book aka PFAL in his right hand. What drugs were you taking when having that hallucination dream?
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Mike
Thomas Loy Bumgarner,
I sort of half way through the answer to your question. (spoiler alert: it was coffee!)
Have you had a chance to read what I wrote so far? ...about that issue took on a life of it's own and got all distorted out of proportion? I'll resume my story soon.
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Twinky
Topic is: Is it okay to recommend Weirwille's books to others?
Not: Is it okay to continue Mike's soap opera? Puh-leeze!!! Though the soap opera might be entertaining for some of the newer people here, for a while.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Waysider, excellent post!! I think I might use it someday!
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Mike
Is there a search engine for all the posts here? I was unable to find one.
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Rocky
Top of the page, right side of the dark blue bar.
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WordWolf
Furthermore, Mike's tendency to re-imagine events or invent them wholesale is evident here. When we discussed TW:LiL, and the apologists were claiming that one offhand comment in one book was equal to the legal citing of sources in all the books in which this comment wasn't even mentioned, there were 3 posters who said that. If Mike posted on it at all, he was an incredibly minor voice, although he's now remembering himself as the main proponent who scored imaginary victories then also. (Yes, we've had a consistent pattern of that, too.)
Based on how he's consistently misrepresented his discussions here over the decades, I'd be truly shocked if his discussion with JS even RESEMBLED what he's said. As if any of us here care what JS said in between managing his splinter group.
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chockfull
Hmmm. Where this logic fails is in examining the current TWI. Rosie pretty much has every single teaching focused on collaterals content. And magazine articles too. For her, those books are more important to adhere to than actual Bible verses.
And the fruit of that over the last couple decades is pretty evident with all that R & R group is posting up about numbers lost, people not sticking around, no need for yearly Adv. classes, etc. I mean just listen to their music or one of their teachings for Christ's sake. It is bland. Vanilla. Boring. Ridicule inspiring. Mind-numbingly dull. The production around it with the swinging ladies of the burlap maternity dresses and the lack of a live drumkit on set for decades is really a reincarnation of the Lawrence Welk show in an elevator filtered into on stage mannequins.
HQ today is a cesspool of vipers all biting and devouring one another. Spying, reporting, people being bullied and fired like has happened forever. And out of that venomous snake pit comes the dullest product ever presented to mankind.
Maybe the books were a good part of the problem all along. Lack of scholastic effort and integrity. Along with what Veep modeled with the narcissism and abusive and criminal behavior. I mean watching Leah Remini recently and her Scientology library - those books and L. Ron Hubbard's insistence on getting them into everyone's hands has been the means for Scientology to amass $$$ and control people for a long time.
Overall, I'd say find a better Christian minister to model. One who is a little more involved with research and less involved with abuse. And don't go looking amongst the splinter societies for that either. That's just plain simple Jesus-parable-about-new-wine-and-old-wineskins advice.
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T-Bone
Mike I beg to differ - the practices contrary to what is often stated in the PFAL books were introduced by vpw himself!
In PFAL , vpw taught the Bible means what it says and says what it means -
but
in person - whether explaining to the corps while showing his favorite porn video or when sexually molesting women in the corps - he reinterpreted verses to allow for his licentiousness- like unto the pure all things are pure - or anything done in the love of god is ok.... seems like that contradicts Bible verses that prohibit adultery.... guess vpw meant to say in the class the Bible means what I say it should mean
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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Mike
Thanks Rocky, for the search engine directions. My eyes are not what they used to be. :)
I will admit this again:As for the JS objections, he was VERY reluctant and exasperated when he admitted he knew of nothing that corrupting in the books that would hurt me, and that there was a lot of good in them too, hence my “doing well.” NOT best, he emphasized.
You folks might face the same challenge he did and try to come up with page numbers and passages that are evil in the books and will corrupt me. JS was unable to do that.
Interestingly, after years of protesting TWI, the CES organization put out a ten year anniversary booklet or letter. Right at the top was an open admission that VPW did indeed come up with a unique package of teachings that taught the Word like it had not been known since the first century. They had to admit that because it’s true.
As for the books corrupting TWI:I spent many hours here showing how many thing in the book were either over our heads or had slipped out of our memory. I also showed how the Twi Verbal Traditions (TVT) that grew up around and smothering the books was the true operating doctrine at TWI, not the books.
No time to resume my story right now. I’ll be back.
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Mike
T-Bone,
I can somewhat agree with you.
It's entirely possible that SOME of those evil TVTs were from VPW himself. He had sin, because we all do. There were times when he could miss the mark he had written down. It's not HIM that I look to, it's the revelations God gave him. I was often annoyed at his policy decisions. It may be some were necessary, and intended only to be temporary, but TWI later institutionalized them via the TVTs.
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T-Bone
Perhaps you'd feel differently if you were one of his sexual victims...or if you were indoctrinated to put up with his filth via way corps training....
another thing - yes we are all sinners - but honestly I was never a sexual predator, adulterer or pathological liar, thief (like an unabashed plagiarist) or some other life-dominating sin. The Bible is very clear about the church NOT tolerating such willful, evil , rebellious, recurring behavior; yeah - like # 1 they should not be leading a church - can't picture god giving someone like that much revelation - it would be counterproductive- sending mixed messages to the church don't you think
Edited by T-BoneClarity + typos
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Mike
T-Bone, you're right. If I had suffered more, I'd have had a more difficult time arriving at my position. The confusion I had to deal with DID delay me a good 11 or 12 years before I came back to PFAL and started working the deeper details in the books. I feel much for those who suffered more. I think also of how Uriah's relatives felt. Things get pretty complicated and murky at times.
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Mike
T-Bone I also know that power corrupts. If I had a lot of power, my "missings of the mark" could have much more far reaching effects than they do now. This is just a guess, but I think it pretty well applies to all of us.
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T-Bone
You're way off base trying to put vpw in the same class as David...David was a legitimate leader of God's people; and to review what I said earlier - yes we are all sinners - but David was NOT a willful repeat gross offender like vpw a lying, thieving, sexual predator !
Seriously- vpw is in a special class of those with life-dominating sins that are addressed many different ways in the Bible - - so If you're looking for types in the Bible that are similar to vpw - try doing a study of false prophets and corrupt idolatrous leaders, nazi-type Pharisees, and sexual predators / adulterers.
i know this can be hard to understand for some - but if a person will try to think outside the conscience-numbing mindset prevalent in vpw's doctrine and practice- they might see the hypocrisy of assuming vpw was in the same class as David or other notable people in the Bible . And to elaborate on life-dominating sin - if a person is a willful repeat offender - the Bible indicates that person has "earned" the right to bear a particular title - i.e. Adulterer , thief, liar, etc.
it wouldn't hurt for some folks to step back and reevaluate their scale of values; imagine what a shocking and offensive impact it would have on someone not in TWI if I were to say to them "I'm in a non-denominational church - our leader is a plagiarist, adulterer , pathological liar, megalomaniac, and likes to molest young women, oh and he drinks a lot but he's teaching the word like it hasn't been know for centuries- wouldn't you like to go to church with me?"
Complicated and murky situations come from allowing lying, thriving, sexual predators run their little crazy-town kingdoms.
vpw was corrupt to begin with - he took it to new heights during the reign of his miserable "ministry".
I sincerely hope that those who are so enamored with vpw do not come into power in any situation - but the reality of offshoots and splinter groups tells me otherwise....that's one reason I continue the fight against corruption , false prophets, plagiarists, and sexual predators on Grease Spot
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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OldSkool
Mike - Vpw was corrupt. To quote Jeses teaching - a corrupt tree produces corrupt fruit.
Vpw legacy screams corrupt fruit. Adulterer, drunk, thief aka plagiarist, hypocrite, and especially sexual predator. So u think the work he stole and amalgamated into whats known as Plaf is good fruit?
He used godly works of other men to promote his own lusts and he had many lusts. Go to the original authors and study their works that vic stole. Take that material to scripture to see if it stands approved. But dont dishonor those authors that vpw ripped off by elelevating plaf in any way.
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