I have personally confronted many way leadership and backed them down every time. they ran with there tails between there legs .
I would love to hear Timlee's accounts of just some of the times he has confronted Way leadership. Details of who, what was said, when, and what was the cause of the confrontation. There must be much to learn, in his accounts.
I would love to hear Timlee's accounts of just some of the times he has confronted Way leadership. Details of who, what was said, when, and what was the cause of the confrontation. There must be much to learn, in his accounts.
More politely stated than I would have... but I was thinking along those lines too.
Tim, you sound angry that we know things about Wierwille that you disagree with. If you are a Southern Baptist preacher with a BA in Theology, you should recognize we are not into giving Fake News about TWI. Experts both from outside and former members from the inside know the truth better than you. Are you an old time Way believer or child of one?
He sounds a great deal like the last child of one that passed through here, the one that later claimed to be his own Dad posting here to support his own posts, sockpuppet style. The "making up stuff" part's pretty obvious in spots. Remember how vpw claimed he "confronted" the church elders about money after they gave the newly-minted preacher ONE RULE and he made a policy of doing the exact opposite of what it was? Then he claimed they just went away after he spoke and he never had any consequences? Remember that pile of horse manure vpw peddled in "TW:LiL"? It's almost the same as the new claim of confronting people who just rolled over and took it with no consequences. Anyone who'd buy that one has never MET the people he's ALLEGEDLY confronted on MANY OCCASIONS.
To be accused multiple times on here of being a troll or making 2 accounts to troll is very ridiculous and unwelcoming for new members. Why do former the way members feel so special that I would personally waste my time to troll. Seems like everyone on here is paranoid from their experience with the way and take it out on new members. No I am not a troll and no I don't have multiple accounts on here to troll former damaged the way members. So drop the paranoia. I only created this thread to learn more about what I learned from vp wierwilles books and how am i even suppose to trust what some of you guys say here if you come off as paranoid and distrusting to any new member who comes here with genuine intentions and questions.
There is some clear bitterness from members here in regards to the way and I would think after some 20 odd years you would let that go. Instead some here hold hate in their heart for vp wierwille and for others from the way like john schoenheit who btw as rocky state has a good heart and good intentions. What more could one ask from someone than to have a good heart with good intentions unlike wierwille. Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there, who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille? makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple. Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all.
I never said you and timlee were the same. Both you and he should read some of the books by former TWI believers who are members of GSC. Also LCMS pastor John Juddes has written articles about Wierwille because he counseled so many former members. Imlikesoconfused, if you are a different person from timlee, please accept my apology for accusing you of being a troll(which I did not). Also read some of the forums here on GSC. They may clear up some confusion.
To be accused multiple times on here of being a troll or making 2 accounts to troll is very ridiculous and unwelcoming for new members. Why do former the way members feel so special that I would personally waste my time to troll. Seems like everyone on here is paranoid from their experience with the way and take it out on new members. No I am not a troll and no I don't have multiple accounts on here to troll former damaged the way members. So drop the paranoia. I only created this thread to learn more about what I learned from vp wierwilles books and how am i even suppose to trust what some of you guys say here if you come off as paranoid and distrusting to any new member who comes here with genuine intentions and questions.
There is some clear bitterness from members here in regards to the way and I would think after some 20 odd years you would let that go. Instead some here hold hate in their heart for vp wierwille and for others from the way like john schoenheit who btw as rocky state has a good heart and good intentions. What more could one ask from someone than to have a good heart with good intentions unlike wierwille.
Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there,
who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille?
makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple.
Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all.
ILSC: Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there,
T-Bone: Some of Schoenheit’s work does have issues (stuff that is wrong) – you can read about it in the doctrinal forum; on that thread I pointed out how they deliberately deviated from the Greek text of John 1
T-Bone: apparently Schoenheit and company think they are free to ignore the rules of grammar, syntax, etc. of biblical Greek so that they can craft a translation that supports their theology. wierwille did that too in his work – you can read about that in Undertow, the author who goes by Penworks when she posts here on Grease Spot was in TWI’s research department and had witnessed first hand the pressure wierwille put on them to twist and re-define words of the biblical Greek to agree with what he taught.
ILSC: who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille?
T-Bone: You seem to be stuck in an all-or-nothing frame of mind. Where in the Bible does it say a Christian has to listen to or follow someone or else they become an atheist? Seriously, other than Jesus Christ, of course – can you suggest there’s someone else I should listen to and follow?
ILSC:makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple.
T-Bone: again that's all-or-nothing thinking; I have not lost my faith; is wasn't until after I left TWI that I started to read and understand the simple message of the Bible without looking through wierwille's twisted doctrinal "reading glasses". It's a dangerous thing when a supposedly "christian" organization / followers become so enamored with their leader they put everything he says on par with the Holy Bible, or that the leader becomes the star of the show...that the leader becomes the gateway to a "deeper" understanding of the Scriptures....the leader becomes the head of the church - yikes!
ILSC: Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all.
T-Bone: I doubt if you can find any indication that folks on Grease Spot thought wierwille was more than human; however, you will find stories by lots of folks (myself included) who thought he was an honest human being.
BUT not only was he a fraud (plagiarizing the works of others, fabricating stories of miraculous feats, as well as being misleading in his credentials) but among other great acts of pretense - he deliberately deceived followers into thinking that his twisted doctrine – the things that he taught – and the Bible – were one and the same! wierwille was really into fraudulent misrepresentation – read all about it in Matthew 7. wierwille was a fraud and his work is fraudulent ! nothing worth holding onto. If you're a Christian and want something to hold onto - something you can put your faith in...try Jesus Christ.
love and peace
T-Bone
Edited by T-Bone trying to beat the time out of server
"To be accused multiple times on here of being a troll or making 2 accounts to troll is very ridiculous and unwelcoming for new members. Why do former the way members feel so special that I would personally waste my time to troll."
Nobody mentioned trolling outside of the context of this Tim, which is why we mentioned him by name. Nobody accused you of trolling in any capacity. There's a marked difference between disagreeing or being honestly mistaken (at worst, how we think of you so far) and trolling (the Tim guy.)
"Seems like everyone on here is paranoid from their experience with the way and take it out on new members. No I am not a troll and no I don't have multiple accounts on here to troll former damaged the way members. So drop the paranoia."
Dropping the paranoia is good. You go first. :) After all, we talked about someone else (by name) and you got offended about how we referred to you when we did...
" Instead some here hold hate in their heart for vp wierwille and for others from the way like john schoenheit who btw as rocky state has a good heart and good intentions. What more could one ask from someone than to have a good heart with good intentions unlike wierwille."
I think we all agree that js MEANS WELL. What more can I ask for than good intentions? How about good conduct? If one means well and ends up hurting others, that's not good enough for me. If a man claims to teach about God and spreads content with easy-to-correct mistakes, I expect him to stop and improve. Just because he's not a sexual predator like vpw doesn't mean he's admirable.
BTW, I think T-Bone did a good job of answering, so I'm going to quote him also.
ILSC: Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there,
T-Bone: Some of Schoenheit’s work does have issues (stuff that is wrong) – you can read about it in the doctrinal forum; on that thread I pointed out how they deliberately deviated from the Greek text of John 1
T-Bone: apparently Schoenheit and company think they are free to ignore the rules of grammar, syntax, etc. of biblical Greek so that they can craft a translation that supports their theology. wierwille did that too in his work – you can read about that in Undertow, the author who goes by Penworks when she posts here on Grease Spot was in TWI’s research department and had witnessed first hand the pressure wierwille put on them to twist and re-define words of the biblical Greek to agree with what he taught.
ILSC: who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille?
T-Bone: You seem to be stuck in an all-or-nothing frame of mind. Where in the Bible does it say a Christian has to listen to or follow someone or else they become an atheist? Seriously, other than Jesus Christ, of course – can you suggest there’s someone else I should listen to and follow?
ILSC:makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple.
T-Bone: again that's all-or-nothing thinking; I have not lost my faith; is wasn't until after I left TWI that I started to read and understand the simple message of the Bible without looking through wierwille's twisted doctrinal "reading glasses". It's a dangerous thing when a supposedly "christian" organization / followers become so enamored with their leader they put everything he says on par with the Holy Bible, or that the leader becomes the star of the show...that the leader becomes the gateway to a "deeper" understanding of the Scriptures....the leader becomes the head of the church - yikes!
ILSC: Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all.
T-Bone: I doubt if you can find any indication that folks on Grease Spot thought wierwille was more than human; however, you will find stories by lots of folks (myself included) who thought he was an honest human being.
BUT not only was he a fraud (plagiarizing the works of others, fabricating stories of miraculous feats, as well as being misleading in his credentials) but among other great acts of pretense - he deliberately deceived followers into thinking that his twisted doctrine – the things that he taught – and the Bible – were one and the same! wierwille was really into fraudulent misrepresentation – read all about it in Matthew 7. wierwille was a fraud and his work is fraudulent ! nothing worth holding onto. If you're a Christian and want something to hold onto - something you can put your faith in...try Jesus Christ.
I see you managed to edit your post above... just seen that.
And now to bed. It's 1.15am, way after the time those pesky devil spirits come out to hunt. (Or was that, when some of the Way head honchos come out to hunt?) Anyhow, the only peskies here are my two foolish cats. (See their photo at side.)
I don't think there is a teacher out there who doesn't have something wrong with his theology. It may be impossible to be 100% correct on everything you teach in the bible because quite frankly no one knows everything about the bible. I just find traditional theology not very compelling. This of course does not make it wrong but I don't think I can just read a book on systematic theology and come away thinking everything I read is actually true. So the toughest question is who can we trust to teach us the word? Obviously it would be best if we all had the time to learn greek and hebrew and read the earliest texts but many have already done that for us. And there seems to be differing opinions even among those who have done that. The bible is a very complex and difficult subject to grasp because no matter what route you take in approaching learning it, every route will lead to a different path and all clearly can't be correct. So what does one do here?
The best any of us can do is go with what we believe makes sense and believe is true. If something doesn't make sense then we need to dig deeper till be find a satisfactory answer. But I agree with many on here that the biggest mistake one could make when approaching the bible or learning from someone about the bible is that someone has the absolute truth. I think only God has the absolute truth. We can only get pieces of it here or there with no absolute certainty. Any thought of having the absolute truth is a mere illusion as we saw with the way. When I was reading weirwilles books him and the person who introduced me to the material(who btw still believes he has the absolute truth, which is a good feeling I admit but just a fantasy at best) seem to teach or think they have the absolute truth. Which is a dicey situation to be in if you are wrong which they both were. So while I like js as you guys call him here and his work, I no longer approach it with the view that this is just absolutely the truth. I approach it like I do anything else that could contain error, with caution and without thinking I know more than I know or that is knowable. The way seems to have taught they had the truth and everyone else was wrong and that isn't the right mindset to have. No one has the truth but God is my belief. Even if you read the bible and know all the knowledge the world has on the bible you would perhaps have the absolute truth but also have so many contradictions that knowing the absolute truth from whats false would be impossible to differentiate.
I don't think there is a teacher out there who doesn't have something wrong with his theology. It may be impossible to be 100% correct on everything you teach in the bible because quite frankly no one knows everything about the bible. I just find traditional theology not very compelling. This of course does not make it wrong but I don't think I can just read a book on systematic theology and come away thinking everything I read is actually true. So the toughest question is who can we trust to teach us the word? Obviously it would be best if we all had the time to learn greek and hebrew and read the earliest texts but many have already done that for us. And there seems to be differing opinions even among those who have done that. The bible is a very complex and difficult subject to grasp because no matter what route you take in approaching learning it, every route will lead to a different path and all clearly can't be correct. So what does one do here?
The best any of us can do is go with what we believe makes sense and believe is true. If something doesn't make sense then we need to dig deeper till be find a satisfactory answer. But I agree with many on here that the biggest mistake one could make when approaching the bible or learning from someone about the bible is that someone has the absolute truth. I think only God has the absolute truth. We can only get pieces of it here or there with no absolute certainty. Any thought of having the absolute truth is a mere illusion as we saw with the way. When I was reading weirwilles books him and the person who introduced me to the material(who btw still believes he has the absolute truth, which is a good feeling I admit but just a fantasy at best) seem to teach or think they have the absolute truth. Which is a dicey situation to be in if you are wrong which they both were. So while I like js as you guys call him here and his work, I no longer approach it with the view that this is just absolutely the truth. I approach it like I do anything else that could contain error, with caution and without thinking I know more than I know or that is knowable. The way seems to have taught they had the truth and everyone else was wrong and that isn't the right mindset to have. No one has the truth but God is my belief. Even if you read the bible and know all the knowledge the world has on the bible you would perhaps have the absolute truth but also have so many contradictions that knowing the absolute truth from whats false would be impossible to differentiate.
That is a very thoughtful post and I can relate to so much of what you said. One of the best points I take away from what you said is that no one on earth has all the answers. From what you’ve said here you seem to have given the issues a lot of thought. My advice to you is don’t ever stop doing that.
As far as an approach to Bible study there’s one book that I often refer to – Understanding the Bible by John Stott. It is a simple and solid approach.
That is a very thoughtful post and I can relate to so much of what you said. One of the best points I take away from what you said is that no one on earth has all the answers. From what you’ve said here you seem to have given the issues a lot of thought. My advice to you is don’t ever stop doing that.
As far as an approach to Bible study there’s one book that I often refer to – Understanding the Bible by John Stott. It is a simple and solid approach.
Thanks for the book recommendation, Confused. I just ordered if from Amazon. Read the intro that was available. Looks really good, though of course he thinks JC is God but who doesn't. Found I can still learn a lot from different scholars anyway. Why deprive myself of some great teaching just because one aspect of doctrine I don't agree with.
On 2/6/2017 at 10:07 PM, ImLikeSoConfused said:
That is true but I'd like to hear from others on their opinion on whether or not its a good idea or not.
Here's my opinion. First, my questions are: which books of "his" do you want to recommend and why?
If you do recommend any, I hope by now you have heard that much of what he published he plagiarized from other fundamentalists like E.W. Bullinger, J.E. Stiles, etc.. This fact is documented in many places here on GSC and other websites.. In my opinion, I would not recommend his books based on that fact alone.
Also, there are some of his books that have his name as the author but were not written by him. They were written by various members of this biblical research team over the years. None of those people are at TWI headquarters any longer. There are good reasons for that.
I'll finish by saying that once you begin looking into what Wierwille's teachings in his books really are, you'll see they prop up the assertion called "inerrancy of the Scripture." VPW put it like this: the Bible is God's Word, God is perfect, therefore His Word is perfect. He didn't say which version of the Bible is God's Word (there are many).There are mountains of problems with inerrancy and with VPW's simplistic statement about the Bible having to be perfect. Think about each part of his statement. Have you done that? If you are going to recommend a book to someone, it is a good idea to know what that book is really promoting. To me, much of VPW's positions reflected in his books are demeaning to other Christians' points of view, bigoted against other religions, and he often twisted Scripture and used it out of context to support his ideas. (he is not the only one who does this). Example: He insisted that the Greek word for "soldiers" in Ephesians chapter six, "must be wrong" because believers are athletes. Again, why did he make things up like that? He cherry-picked what he wanted from the Bible. Sometimes he took things literally, other times figuratively.
So, as you can see it is not my choice to recommend anything he has his name on. It's up to you. But think about what you are promoting. What kind of behaviors result from believing the dogmas that VPW claimed as "the truth?" In my experience, which was 17 years in TWI and as a member of his "research team," believing TWI teachings narrowed my mind, warped my identity, limited my choices. That is just the tip of the iceberg.
Here's my opinion. First, my questions are: which books of "his" do you want to recommend and why?
If you do recommend any, I hope by now you have heard that much of what he published he plagiarized from other fundamentalists like E.W. Bullinger, J.E. Stiles, etc.. This fact is documented in many places here on GSC and other websites.. In my opinion, I would not recommend his books based on that fact alone.
Also, there are some of his books that have his name as the author but were not written by him. They were written by various members of this biblical research team over the years. None of those people are at TWI headquarters any longer. There are good reasons for that.
I'll finish by saying that once you begin looking into what Wierwille's teachings in his books really are, you'll see they prop up the assertion called "inerrancy of the Scripture." VPW put it like this: the Bible is God's Word, God is perfect, therefore His Word is perfect. He didn't say which version of the Bible is God's Word (there are many).There are mountains of problems with inerrancy and with VPW's simplistic statement about the Bible having to be perfect. Think about each part of his statement. Have you done that? If you are going to recommend a book to someone, it is a good idea to know what that book is really promoting. To me, much of VPW's positions reflected in his books are demeaning to other Christians' points of view, bigoted against other religions, and he often twisted Scripture and used it out of context to support his ideas. (he is not the only one who does this). Example: He insisted that the Greek word for "soldiers" in Ephesians chapter six, "must be wrong" because believers are athletes. Again, why did he make things up like that? He cherry-picked what he wanted from the Bible. Sometimes he took things literally, other times figuratively.
So, as you can see it is not my choice to recommend anything he has his name on. It's up to you. But think about what you are promoting. What kind of behaviors result from believing the dogmas that VPW claimed as "the truth?" In my experience, which was 17 years in TWI and as a member of his "research team," believing TWI teachings narrowed my mind, warped my identity, limited my choices. That is just the tip of the iceberg.
Ciao for now,
Penworks
Bible tells me so I must admit was a good read. Whether or not some of it is a fib of course must be considered. And yes its true that he as a person hurt hundreds or even thousands of people. Not going to deny that. I also know some people or well a person who was taught by a person taught by weirwille who had their life changed for the better. They were down and out and hopeless and the instruction this person received from one of weirwilles students helped change this mans life for the better. Of course this may be an exception to what most have experienced. But lets think for a minute about how we felt and how our lives were when we believed weirwille was a decent or good person. Finding out he is a manipulating liar may make us not trust him but I don't think it should remove any good that came from his efforts and work. Even if some or all of those works werent his originally. Lets do a thought experiment for a second here and imagine weirwille was who he presented himself to be. And think about any possible positives he gave us then now lets think about how we feel after finding out hes a horrible person. Why should weirwilles behavior and poor character remove the good we received from him.
I definitely understand that a lot of people were hurt from him but we can't let our emotions override our logic. And is it logical to just throw away all the good we received because we find out the source wasn't the original source or the source was a terrible person? It seems a terrible person helped a lot of people myself included get to know God better. I would be lying if I said I think I would be as close to God if I hadn't read "his" book bible tells me so and all the others. Sure the law of believing isn't what he claimed it to be but it did increase my faith and helped me grow more spiritually to God. Theres certainly some fibs in his work I highly doubt he really healed a person with a lame arm or that it snowed at an impossible time. I don't think those things happened, I did before I found out what kind of person he was. But such things not being true aren't really important. Whats important is what did I gain from my experience reading his books? What did I lose? Sure I had some negatives that I discussed early in this thread, but I personally am better off now than I wouldve been had I not read his books, I would be dishonest if I said otherwise.
Now for those who have personal experience with the wretched man I can see how it is easy to just want to remove everything you ever knew or learned from him because what you learned was from a tainted source and its hard to separate the good he taught from the bad experiences he gave you. Not to disregard the terrible pain he caused many people but it is still important to forgive the evil done and keep the good that came out of the experience from him. It is much easier to go through life with an all or nothing approach, by saying okay such and such is just a rotten terrible evil person, hence it follows everything they did or do is rotten terrible and evil, and to be repulsed by anything associated with such a person. I completely understand where people are coming from with these feelings. I can't imagine the pain he caused. Heck I suffered some from going all in on his law of believing, but some good did result. I learned to speak in tongues, I experience God in my life daily now which is something I never did before. In one of his books he talks about fellowship with God being the key, now while I'm not sure if there is a key to life, but I found that statement stuck.
I personally don't think there are any keys to life because there is nothing that can stop us from failing or experiencing pain or negativity. So in that sense there is no key. But having a personal relationship with God is vital in my opinion. Having great faith in the bible is vital and changes you for the better. Faith is a very big and important virtue. It is something I lacked before reading his material. A relationship with God and experiencing God on a daily basis and receiving guidance from God on a daily basis and just having a personal relationship with God was something I didn't have before reading his books. I can't really stress enough that there was good that came from a very evil and rotten person. No one wants to admit good can come from someone so evil. But some good did come from him for me. Maybe thats not the case for most here. And I completely understand if people want nothing to do with his teachings or the bible or God or anything to do with anything that brings up even the slightest memory of him.
I'm sure I would feel betrayed and hurt like most here feel when it comes to him. If I had known the man or been apart of the way I would probably disassociate myself with any connection to anything involving him and would definitely question my faith and question God for allowing me to experience such evil. I couldn't imagine what it is like to be a part of an actual cult. It would have to mess with your mind for years before you recovered I'm sure. Healing from that can't be easy. So I'm definitely not excusing any of his behavior but what I would like to say is as hard as it may be, if we could just cut out the evil that came from him and only focus on the positive received perhaps we would all be better off. Such a thing is difficult to do though because of the hate or anger or other negative emotions such a person triggers. And I don't think I'm in any position to tell anyone here to forgive him. I however hope that we can all move on from the bad and maintain any of the good that resulted. It's like that parable of the tares. If you uproot everything you are taking the bad away sure but you are also removing any good in there as well.
(SNIP)...I'm sure I would feel betrayed and hurt like most here feel when it comes to him. If I had known the man or been apart of the way I would probably disassociate myself with any connection to anything involving him and would definitely question my faith and question God for allowing me to experience such evil. I couldn't imagine what it is like to be a part of an actual cult. It would have to mess with your mind for years before you recovered I'm sure. ...(SNIP)
This is a very important point - not to be missed ! You were not in wierwille’s cult. That right there is probably the biggest reason for the HUGE difference between your experience and that of those in wierwille’s cult.
As far as wierwille’s books go, you were left up to your own devices – as the saying goes. You had the freedom to pick and choose…what to accept…what to reject…you had the freedom to choose what you wanted to apply – and the freedom of how you would apply it. No one manipulated, deceived, misled, or coerced you into doing anything. Now perhaps this discussion could go around and around all day over wierwille’s books – which is ok - but we would need to get specific on exactly what is of value and what criteria to use to determine that - however I would like to zero in on the point you made at the end – your lack of the cult experience. You see - wierwille’s books are only one part of the cult formula.
The other part of the cult formula is the cult leader. The cult leader is the catalyst. In chemistry, the catalyst causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected. a catalyst
And what was the reaction that wierwille caused or accelerated in loyal followers who studied his books? Among many other insidious mind-screws it was a belief that he – wierwille was THE man of god for our day and time…I was in wierwille’s leadership training program – the way corps. We did not have the option to pick and choose what or how to apply the things in his books. If you did not agree with him you were thrown out !
being committed to a cult – it’s more than just about book learning – more than just information on a page. Now as I look back on my time in the way corps program I understand how plastic or malleable wierwille’s books and even the Bible became to suit his own agenda. That’s the “charm” of a charismatic leader and the “beauty” of group-think (I’m being sarcastic here). I don’t think outsiders praising wierwille’s books intend to be demeaning to former TWI followers – like we’ve ignorantly thrown out the baby with the bath water – discarding something valuable along with something undesirable. I’m not crazy about that idea because it ignores the complexity and individuality of people.
Instead of using very broad brush strokes perhaps a pencil with eraser is in order – I find myself re-evaluating things all the time; that’s the freedom of not being in a cult! I can change my mind on a doctrinal position. I may re-think some aspect and decide hey that’s not bathwater…or something I thought wasn’t bathwater – I now think it is.
Outsiders and even folks in the general TWI populace who are fascinated with wierwille’s books and his teachings of “the word” should take a look at the very real practical consequence of wierwille’s works. I’ll give links for three important books below – these are real stories by former committed followers who witnessed firsthand how wierwille often justified his abusive and exploitative behavior with pat answers from his own books or even some Bible verse.
This is a very important point - not to be missed ! You were not in wierwille’s cult. That right there is probably the biggest reason for the HUGE difference between your experience and that of those in wierwille’s cult.
As far as wierwille’s books go, you were left up to your own devices – as the saying goes. You had the freedom to pick and choose…what to accept…what to reject…you had the freedom to choose what you wanted to apply – and the freedom of how you would apply it. No one manipulated, deceived, misled, or coerced you into doing anything. Now perhaps this discussion could go around and around all day over wierwille’s books – which is ok - but we would need to get specific on exactly what is of value and what criteria to use to determine that - however I would like to zero in on the point you made at the end – your lack of the cult experience. You see - wierwille’s books are only one part of the cult formula.
The other part of the cult formula is the cult leader. The cult leader is the catalyst. In chemistry, the catalyst causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected.
I agree with what you are saying and can understand why those who were in it would reject anything related to him. Its the only natural response. But at the same time I wouldn't want to not believe something that is true because the author stole it from some source or is a corrupt individual. Even the devil tells some truth. Obviously its a slippery slope because it does make sense not to trust anything someone says if they are corrupt, but it just goes back to what I was saying with the parable of the tares, if you remove the bad theres some good you are losing out on as well. For most people the rage he caused is so significant that rejecting everything he said is the simplest choice. But in doing so theres some true things that you are by default rejecting.
I fail to see the slippery slope you fear so much. I’m not challenging some truth or whatever it is you’re afraid of losing. Hold onto whatever you want. I was responding to your comments about you not being in the way. I was telling you what that experience was like. I survived a cult. I survived the devilish way Bible truths were twisted by a cult to mislead me.
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Steve Lortz
Greetings, ImLikeSoConfused! I would have responded to this thread sooner, but I had a heart attack on February 9th which landed me at the hospital DOA. The docs resuscitated me and I've spent th
Longhunter
I don't agree with a single word if this. Such a wild claim requires a big burden of proof. His theological claims are unsubstantiated, his Greek was lousy at best, and his Biblical studies were fra
WordWolf
He sounds a great deal like the last child of one that passed through here, the one that later claimed to be his own Dad posting here to support his own posts, sockpuppet style. The "making up stuff"
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Twinky
I would love to hear Timlee's accounts of just some of the times he has confronted Way leadership. Details of who, what was said, when, and what was the cause of the confrontation. There must be much to learn, in his accounts.
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Twinky
Thomas, he doesn't say he's a preacher of any kind, just that he has a BA in Theology.
(Well, so do I... issued by TWI.
I also have real degrees, in very difficult subjects, from properly accredited organisations.)
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Rocky
More politely stated than I would have... but I was thinking along those lines too.
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WordWolf
He sounds a great deal like the last child of one that passed through here, the one that later claimed to be his own Dad posting here to support his own posts, sockpuppet style. The "making up stuff" part's pretty obvious in spots. Remember how vpw claimed he "confronted" the church elders about money after they gave the newly-minted preacher ONE RULE and he made a policy of doing the exact opposite of what it was? Then he claimed they just went away after he spoke and he never had any consequences? Remember that pile of horse manure vpw peddled in "TW:LiL"? It's almost the same as the new claim of confronting people who just rolled over and took it with no consequences. Anyone who'd buy that one has never MET the people he's ALLEGEDLY confronted on MANY OCCASIONS.
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ImLikeSoConfused
To be accused multiple times on here of being a troll or making 2 accounts to troll is very ridiculous and unwelcoming for new members. Why do former the way members feel so special that I would personally waste my time to troll. Seems like everyone on here is paranoid from their experience with the way and take it out on new members. No I am not a troll and no I don't have multiple accounts on here to troll former damaged the way members. So drop the paranoia. I only created this thread to learn more about what I learned from vp wierwilles books and how am i even suppose to trust what some of you guys say here if you come off as paranoid and distrusting to any new member who comes here with genuine intentions and questions.
There is some clear bitterness from members here in regards to the way and I would think after some 20 odd years you would let that go. Instead some here hold hate in their heart for vp wierwille and for others from the way like john schoenheit who btw as rocky state has a good heart and good intentions. What more could one ask from someone than to have a good heart with good intentions unlike wierwille. Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there, who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille? makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple. Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I never said you and timlee were the same. Both you and he should read some of the books by former TWI believers who are members of GSC. Also LCMS pastor John Juddes has written articles about Wierwille because he counseled so many former members. Imlikesoconfused, if you are a different person from timlee, please accept my apology for accusing you of being a troll(which I did not). Also read some of the forums here on GSC. They may clear up some confusion.
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T-Bone
ILSC: Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there,
T-Bone: Some of Schoenheit’s work does have issues (stuff that is wrong) – you can read about it in the doctrinal forum; on that thread I pointed out how they deliberately deviated from the Greek text of John 1
STF's REV in doctrinal forum
T-Bone: apparently Schoenheit and company think they are free to ignore the rules of grammar, syntax, etc. of biblical Greek so that they can craft a translation that supports their theology. wierwille did that too in his work – you can read about that in Undertow, the author who goes by Penworks when she posts here on Grease Spot was in TWI’s research department and had witnessed first hand the pressure wierwille put on them to twist and re-define words of the biblical Greek to agree with what he taught.
Undertow
ILSC: who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille?
T-Bone: You seem to be stuck in an all-or-nothing frame of mind. Where in the Bible does it say a Christian has to listen to or follow someone or else they become an atheist? Seriously, other than Jesus Christ, of course – can you suggest there’s someone else I should listen to and follow?
ILSC: makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple.
T-Bone: again that's all-or-nothing thinking; I have not lost my faith; is wasn't until after I left TWI that I started to read and understand the simple message of the Bible without looking through wierwille's twisted doctrinal "reading glasses". It's a dangerous thing when a supposedly "christian" organization / followers become so enamored with their leader they put everything he says on par with the Holy Bible, or that the leader becomes the star of the show...that the leader becomes the gateway to a "deeper" understanding of the Scriptures....the leader becomes the head of the church - yikes!
ILSC: Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all.
T-Bone: I doubt if you can find any indication that folks on Grease Spot thought wierwille was more than human; however, you will find stories by lots of folks (myself included) who thought he was an honest human being.
BUT not only was he a fraud (plagiarizing the works of others, fabricating stories of miraculous feats, as well as being misleading in his credentials) but among other great acts of pretense - he deliberately deceived followers into thinking that his twisted doctrine – the things that he taught – and the Bible – were one and the same! wierwille was really into fraudulent misrepresentation – read all about it in Matthew 7. wierwille was a fraud and his work is fraudulent ! nothing worth holding onto. If you're a Christian and want something to hold onto - something you can put your faith in...try Jesus Christ.
love and peace
T-Bone
Edited by T-Bonetrying to beat the time out of server
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Twinky
Were you going to say something, T-Bone?
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T-Bone
yes - how are you doing today Twinky ?
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WordWolf
"To be accused multiple times on here of being a troll or making 2 accounts to troll is very ridiculous and unwelcoming for new members. Why do former the way members feel so special that I would personally waste my time to troll."
Nobody mentioned trolling outside of the context of this Tim, which is why we mentioned him by name. Nobody accused you of trolling in any capacity. There's a marked difference between disagreeing or being honestly mistaken (at worst, how we think of you so far) and trolling (the Tim guy.)
"Seems like everyone on here is paranoid from their experience with the way and take it out on new members. No I am not a troll and no I don't have multiple accounts on here to troll former damaged the way members. So drop the paranoia."
Dropping the paranoia is good. You go first. :) After all, we talked about someone else (by name) and you got offended about how we referred to you when we did...
" Instead some here hold hate in their heart for vp wierwille and for others from the way like john schoenheit who btw as rocky state has a good heart and good intentions. What more could one ask from someone than to have a good heart with good intentions unlike wierwille."
I think we all agree that js MEANS WELL. What more can I ask for than good intentions? How about good conduct? If one means well and ends up hurting others, that's not good enough for me. If a man claims to teach about God and spreads content with easy-to-correct mistakes, I expect him to stop and improve. Just because he's not a sexual predator like vpw doesn't mean he's admirable.
BTW, I think T-Bone did a good job of answering, so I'm going to quote him also.
========================================================
ILSC: Whether you agree or disagree with schoenheits work the fact is unless you can prove he is wrong then its no different than any other teacher out there,
T-Bone: Some of Schoenheit’s work does have issues (stuff that is wrong) – you can read about it in the doctrinal forum; on that thread I pointed out how they deliberately deviated from the Greek text of John 1
STF's REV in doctrinal forum
T-Bone: apparently Schoenheit and company think they are free to ignore the rules of grammar, syntax, etc. of biblical Greek so that they can craft a translation that supports their theology. wierwille did that too in his work – you can read about that in Undertow, the author who goes by Penworks when she posts here on Grease Spot was in TWI’s research department and had witnessed first hand the pressure wierwille put on them to twist and re-define words of the biblical Greek to agree with what he taught.
Undertow
ILSC: who we all have to make a decision to listen to or just follow no one and become an atheist which it seems a lot of ex-way members have become because of one evil person wierwille?
T-Bone: You seem to be stuck in an all-or-nothing frame of mind. Where in the Bible does it say a Christian has to listen to or follow someone or else they become an atheist? Seriously, other than Jesus Christ, of course – can you suggest there’s someone else I should listen to and follow?
ILSC: makes no sense to lose your faith because of one bad apple.
T-Bone: again that's all-or-nothing thinking; I have not lost my faith; is wasn't until after I left TWI that I started to read and understand the simple message of the Bible without looking through wierwille's twisted doctrinal "reading glasses". It's a dangerous thing when a supposedly "christian" organization / followers become so enamored with their leader they put everything he says on par with the Holy Bible, or that the leader becomes the star of the show...that the leader becomes the gateway to a "deeper" understanding of the Scriptures....the leader becomes the head of the church - yikes!
ILSC: Lets not forget wierwille was human and some of you here seem to have thought he was more than human perhaps because of his stories of it snowing in a hot month and state or because he healed an indian mans lame arm or because of his charisma. One fraud does not make what hes representing(the bible) a fraud at all.
T-Bone: I doubt if you can find any indication that folks on Grease Spot thought wierwille was more than human; however, you will find stories by lots of folks (myself included) who thought he was an honest human being.
BUT not only was he a fraud (plagiarizing the works of others, fabricating stories of miraculous feats, as well as being misleading in his credentials) but among other great acts of pretense - he deliberately deceived followers into thinking that his twisted doctrine – the things that he taught – and the Bible – were one and the same! wierwille was really into fraudulent misrepresentation – read all about it in Matthew 7. wierwille was a fraud and his work is fraudulent ! nothing worth holding onto. If you're a Christian and want something to hold onto - something you can put your faith in...try Jesus Christ.
love and peace
T-Bone
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Twinky
Doing jus' fine, thanks, T-Bone.
I see you managed to edit your post above... just seen that.
And now to bed. It's 1.15am, way after the time those pesky devil spirits come out to hunt. (Or was that, when some of the Way head honchos come out to hunt?) Anyhow, the only peskies here are my two foolish cats. (See their photo at side.)
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ImLikeSoConfused
I don't think there is a teacher out there who doesn't have something wrong with his theology. It may be impossible to be 100% correct on everything you teach in the bible because quite frankly no one knows everything about the bible. I just find traditional theology not very compelling. This of course does not make it wrong but I don't think I can just read a book on systematic theology and come away thinking everything I read is actually true. So the toughest question is who can we trust to teach us the word? Obviously it would be best if we all had the time to learn greek and hebrew and read the earliest texts but many have already done that for us. And there seems to be differing opinions even among those who have done that. The bible is a very complex and difficult subject to grasp because no matter what route you take in approaching learning it, every route will lead to a different path and all clearly can't be correct. So what does one do here?
The best any of us can do is go with what we believe makes sense and believe is true. If something doesn't make sense then we need to dig deeper till be find a satisfactory answer. But I agree with many on here that the biggest mistake one could make when approaching the bible or learning from someone about the bible is that someone has the absolute truth. I think only God has the absolute truth. We can only get pieces of it here or there with no absolute certainty. Any thought of having the absolute truth is a mere illusion as we saw with the way. When I was reading weirwilles books him and the person who introduced me to the material(who btw still believes he has the absolute truth, which is a good feeling I admit but just a fantasy at best) seem to teach or think they have the absolute truth. Which is a dicey situation to be in if you are wrong which they both were. So while I like js as you guys call him here and his work, I no longer approach it with the view that this is just absolutely the truth. I approach it like I do anything else that could contain error, with caution and without thinking I know more than I know or that is knowable. The way seems to have taught they had the truth and everyone else was wrong and that isn't the right mindset to have. No one has the truth but God is my belief. Even if you read the bible and know all the knowledge the world has on the bible you would perhaps have the absolute truth but also have so many contradictions that knowing the absolute truth from whats false would be impossible to differentiate.
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T-Bone
That is a very thoughtful post and I can relate to so much of what you said. One of the best points I take away from what you said is that no one on earth has all the answers. From what you’ve said here you seem to have given the issues a lot of thought. My advice to you is don’t ever stop doing that.
As far as an approach to Bible study there’s one book that I often refer to – Understanding the Bible by John Stott. It is a simple and solid approach.
Understanding the Bible by John Stott
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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ImLikeSoConfused
Just bookmarked that book thanks for the recommendation.
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MRAP
The blood of two are in the water, the GSC sharks are circling. Soon enough, the sharks will have nothing else to attack, except themselves.
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outandabout
Thanks for the book recommendation, Confused. I just ordered if from Amazon. Read the intro that was available. Looks really good, though of course he thinks JC is God but who doesn't. Found I can still learn a lot from different scholars anyway. Why deprive myself of some great teaching just because one aspect of doctrine I don't agree with.
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waysider
What does that mean?
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JayDee
❓❓❓❓❓
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penworks
Here's my opinion. First, my questions are: which books of "his" do you want to recommend and why?
If you do recommend any, I hope by now you have heard that much of what he published he plagiarized from other fundamentalists like E.W. Bullinger, J.E. Stiles, etc.. This fact is documented in many places here on GSC and other websites.. In my opinion, I would not recommend his books based on that fact alone.
Also, there are some of his books that have his name as the author but were not written by him. They were written by various members of this biblical research team over the years. None of those people are at TWI headquarters any longer. There are good reasons for that.
I'll finish by saying that once you begin looking into what Wierwille's teachings in his books really are, you'll see they prop up the assertion called "inerrancy of the Scripture." VPW put it like this: the Bible is God's Word, God is perfect, therefore His Word is perfect. He didn't say which version of the Bible is God's Word (there are many).There are mountains of problems with inerrancy and with VPW's simplistic statement about the Bible having to be perfect. Think about each part of his statement. Have you done that? If you are going to recommend a book to someone, it is a good idea to know what that book is really promoting. To me, much of VPW's positions reflected in his books are demeaning to other Christians' points of view, bigoted against other religions, and he often twisted Scripture and used it out of context to support his ideas. (he is not the only one who does this). Example: He insisted that the Greek word for "soldiers" in Ephesians chapter six, "must be wrong" because believers are athletes. Again, why did he make things up like that? He cherry-picked what he wanted from the Bible. Sometimes he took things literally, other times figuratively.
So, as you can see it is not my choice to recommend anything he has his name on. It's up to you. But think about what you are promoting. What kind of behaviors result from believing the dogmas that VPW claimed as "the truth?" In my experience, which was 17 years in TWI and as a member of his "research team," believing TWI teachings narrowed my mind, warped my identity, limited my choices. That is just the tip of the iceberg.
Ciao for now,
Penworks
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Bolshevik
Cyberbalkinization (scroll down to Interests) ?
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ImLikeSoConfused
Bible tells me so I must admit was a good read. Whether or not some of it is a fib of course must be considered. And yes its true that he as a person hurt hundreds or even thousands of people. Not going to deny that. I also know some people or well a person who was taught by a person taught by weirwille who had their life changed for the better. They were down and out and hopeless and the instruction this person received from one of weirwilles students helped change this mans life for the better. Of course this may be an exception to what most have experienced. But lets think for a minute about how we felt and how our lives were when we believed weirwille was a decent or good person. Finding out he is a manipulating liar may make us not trust him but I don't think it should remove any good that came from his efforts and work. Even if some or all of those works werent his originally. Lets do a thought experiment for a second here and imagine weirwille was who he presented himself to be. And think about any possible positives he gave us then now lets think about how we feel after finding out hes a horrible person. Why should weirwilles behavior and poor character remove the good we received from him.
I definitely understand that a lot of people were hurt from him but we can't let our emotions override our logic. And is it logical to just throw away all the good we received because we find out the source wasn't the original source or the source was a terrible person? It seems a terrible person helped a lot of people myself included get to know God better. I would be lying if I said I think I would be as close to God if I hadn't read "his" book bible tells me so and all the others. Sure the law of believing isn't what he claimed it to be but it did increase my faith and helped me grow more spiritually to God. Theres certainly some fibs in his work I highly doubt he really healed a person with a lame arm or that it snowed at an impossible time. I don't think those things happened, I did before I found out what kind of person he was. But such things not being true aren't really important. Whats important is what did I gain from my experience reading his books? What did I lose? Sure I had some negatives that I discussed early in this thread, but I personally am better off now than I wouldve been had I not read his books, I would be dishonest if I said otherwise.
Now for those who have personal experience with the wretched man I can see how it is easy to just want to remove everything you ever knew or learned from him because what you learned was from a tainted source and its hard to separate the good he taught from the bad experiences he gave you. Not to disregard the terrible pain he caused many people but it is still important to forgive the evil done and keep the good that came out of the experience from him. It is much easier to go through life with an all or nothing approach, by saying okay such and such is just a rotten terrible evil person, hence it follows everything they did or do is rotten terrible and evil, and to be repulsed by anything associated with such a person. I completely understand where people are coming from with these feelings. I can't imagine the pain he caused. Heck I suffered some from going all in on his law of believing, but some good did result. I learned to speak in tongues, I experience God in my life daily now which is something I never did before. In one of his books he talks about fellowship with God being the key, now while I'm not sure if there is a key to life, but I found that statement stuck.
I personally don't think there are any keys to life because there is nothing that can stop us from failing or experiencing pain or negativity. So in that sense there is no key. But having a personal relationship with God is vital in my opinion. Having great faith in the bible is vital and changes you for the better. Faith is a very big and important virtue. It is something I lacked before reading his material. A relationship with God and experiencing God on a daily basis and receiving guidance from God on a daily basis and just having a personal relationship with God was something I didn't have before reading his books. I can't really stress enough that there was good that came from a very evil and rotten person. No one wants to admit good can come from someone so evil. But some good did come from him for me. Maybe thats not the case for most here. And I completely understand if people want nothing to do with his teachings or the bible or God or anything to do with anything that brings up even the slightest memory of him.
I'm sure I would feel betrayed and hurt like most here feel when it comes to him. If I had known the man or been apart of the way I would probably disassociate myself with any connection to anything involving him and would definitely question my faith and question God for allowing me to experience such evil. I couldn't imagine what it is like to be a part of an actual cult. It would have to mess with your mind for years before you recovered I'm sure. Healing from that can't be easy. So I'm definitely not excusing any of his behavior but what I would like to say is as hard as it may be, if we could just cut out the evil that came from him and only focus on the positive received perhaps we would all be better off. Such a thing is difficult to do though because of the hate or anger or other negative emotions such a person triggers. And I don't think I'm in any position to tell anyone here to forgive him. I however hope that we can all move on from the bad and maintain any of the good that resulted. It's like that parable of the tares. If you uproot everything you are taking the bad away sure but you are also removing any good in there as well.
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T-Bone
This is a very important point - not to be missed ! You were not in wierwille’s cult. That right there is probably the biggest reason for the HUGE difference between your experience and that of those in wierwille’s cult.
As far as wierwille’s books go, you were left up to your own devices – as the saying goes. You had the freedom to pick and choose…what to accept…what to reject…you had the freedom to choose what you wanted to apply – and the freedom of how you would apply it. No one manipulated, deceived, misled, or coerced you into doing anything. Now perhaps this discussion could go around and around all day over wierwille’s books – which is ok - but we would need to get specific on exactly what is of value and what criteria to use to determine that - however I would like to zero in on the point you made at the end – your lack of the cult experience. You see - wierwille’s books are only one part of the cult formula.
The other part of the cult formula is the cult leader. The cult leader is the catalyst. In chemistry, the catalyst causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected. a catalyst
And what was the reaction that wierwille caused or accelerated in loyal followers who studied his books? Among many other insidious mind-screws it was a belief that he – wierwille was THE man of god for our day and time…I was in wierwille’s leadership training program – the way corps. We did not have the option to pick and choose what or how to apply the things in his books. If you did not agree with him you were thrown out !
being committed to a cult – it’s more than just about book learning – more than just information on a page. Now as I look back on my time in the way corps program I understand how plastic or malleable wierwille’s books and even the Bible became to suit his own agenda. That’s the “charm” of a charismatic leader and the “beauty” of group-think (I’m being sarcastic here). I don’t think outsiders praising wierwille’s books intend to be demeaning to former TWI followers – like we’ve ignorantly thrown out the baby with the bath water – discarding something valuable along with something undesirable. I’m not crazy about that idea because it ignores the complexity and individuality of people.
Instead of using very broad brush strokes perhaps a pencil with eraser is in order – I find myself re-evaluating things all the time; that’s the freedom of not being in a cult! I can change my mind on a doctrinal position. I may re-think some aspect and decide hey that’s not bathwater…or something I thought wasn’t bathwater – I now think it is.
Outsiders and even folks in the general TWI populace who are fascinated with wierwille’s books and his teachings of “the word” should take a look at the very real practical consequence of wierwille’s works. I’ll give links for three important books below – these are real stories by former committed followers who witnessed firsthand how wierwille often justified his abusive and exploitative behavior with pat answers from his own books or even some Bible verse.
Losing the Way
The Cult That Snapped
Undertow
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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ImLikeSoConfused
I agree with what you are saying and can understand why those who were in it would reject anything related to him. Its the only natural response. But at the same time I wouldn't want to not believe something that is true because the author stole it from some source or is a corrupt individual. Even the devil tells some truth. Obviously its a slippery slope because it does make sense not to trust anything someone says if they are corrupt, but it just goes back to what I was saying with the parable of the tares, if you remove the bad theres some good you are losing out on as well. For most people the rage he caused is so significant that rejecting everything he said is the simplest choice. But in doing so theres some true things that you are by default rejecting.
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T-Bone
I fail to see the slippery slope you fear so much. I’m not challenging some truth or whatever it is you’re afraid of losing. Hold onto whatever you want. I was responding to your comments about you not being in the way. I was telling you what that experience was like. I survived a cult. I survived the devilish way Bible truths were twisted by a cult to mislead me.
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