At the Ascension he became no longer personally present, until the Return, the parousia.
Call it the absent Christ or not, SOMETHING went away on the day of the Ascension.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
I know that, and agree with it, and celebrate it. There is undoubtedly some kind of presence or essence or spirit of Christ that is present and comforting. We don't need to get lost in the "absent Christ" controversy in vpw's teachings right here.
Scripture ALSO says there's some kind of INCREASE in his personal presence coming in the future.
That would mean before the Return there is less of this personal presence; after the Return more presence.
How something so simple got (or can get) so screwed up in people's head and heart is mind boggling. My apologies, if the following sounds a bit preachy (because it is, and I'm not a preacher)... but the stupidity of some of the things said in this thread seem to have stirred me in a way to say some things that I normally wouldn't.
After Adam screwed the pooch and coalesced his mind to the world, what men (mankind) could (and did) believe became dependent on the world around them. Hence, the need for (and promise of) Christ, to reveal God (who is spirit) to senses oriented mankind. First given to Adam, of course, but... pretty much lost and/or ignored by the time of Noah & sons. So, God calls out one man (Abram), who eventually reaches the point of believing the impossible (according to anything and everything that can typically be known by your senses), that God can and will raise (the promised) one from the dead. Being the first, he (Abraham) is therefore called the father of all that believe.
And, as you know, he was the patriarch of a nation (Israel.) A nation set "above all nations that are upon the earth." Shown many great signs, miracles, and wonders... which, if possible, should have moved them closer to believing God. But did it? Despite spelling out in rather intricate detail the coming of the Messiah, the nation of Israel failed to recognize and accept Jesus as the Christ. "Show us a sign" was their cry. Evidently they were at one with the world, and couldn't believe anything other than what could be shown them. (Know anyone else like that?)
Why would God do that? Favor an entire nation, that when it came right down to it, could no more or better believe God than the rest of mankind. Well, maybe it was simply to prove that by your senses (the norm of all men) it can't be done. Christ was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. Did the original apostles, hand picked by Jesus Christ, believe it? Oh, they knew he was dead. There was no problem believing that. But alive? Nope, Not without seeing it "for real." So, after his resurrection he presented himself 40 days to his disciples, "by many infallible proofs" . (Seems like a rather tough bunch to convince. But such was/is the nature of man, and this was designed to convince the lot of them ,)
Now, just exactly what "went away" on the day of the Ascension?
Well, so much for "the infallible proofs" that were given to some. Maybe it was time to see if the nation of Israel could be weaned from its addiction to the world, and its need for "signs" to believe that the promised Messiah had come. But, by the conclusion of Act 7, that too, was a no go. And low and behold, it was time to give anyone else in the rest of the world a shot at it. The fundamental barrier? Can (or do) you believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and was raised from the dead (and lives now)?
Well, that's impossible, right? What "proof" is there for that? Probably none whatsoever. (By design, if you want my opinion.) Yet, I know to the uttermost depths of my heart and soul, it's true. Perhaps my brain is simply hardwired to believe it; I can't say for sure. But at this point in time, all of life and learning fits and flows together with it, and I'm fully aware that there is neither a disconnect or a reversibility that exists (or ever will) for it.
Being seated at the right hand of God, Christ is definitely not "absent" from the presence of God. Maybe you don't see it the same way, but if you had a right hand man, wouldn't he be right there with you where ever you were? (Especially after telling him, Stick right here close beside me until some stuff gets set in order...) Or, would you send him off to relax on some island whilst you went along and about your merry way? So, wherever God is present, Christ is also (regardless of whether or not you think so.)
If you think that meeting the Lord "in the air" somehow or in some way refers to him coming to the stratosphere of the earth from some far way place, maybe it's worth giving a little more thought to what else that might mean. Because there's a "change" spoken of that goes along with that. There is not going to be any "less personal presence" of Christ beforehand and "more presence" of him afterwards. Currently, the spiritual world remains invisible to the naked eye. Might that ever change? Probably not, but change the naked eye... and its ability to perceive reality will change. Where does "spirit" live or exist? In the air, perhaps? (compare that to Eph.2:2.) We are "the body of Christ." The difficulty in understanding that is that we just can't now see and don't yet know what a spiritual body is or looks like.
All that said, I do not believe that we (who are Christ's) need (nor will we ever get) something/anything else extra "coming into evidence" (i.e., revealed) - be it written, signed, sealed, or delivered - prior to our gathering together unto him. What was given, written in scripture nearly 2000 years ago, is sufficient, and will remain a powerful testimony to the grace, and manifold wisdom of God until the fullness of times for it is come. (Which, on a personal note, I believe is indeed very close at hand.) Those who can and do choose to believe it, will live this life (until changed) accordingly.
So, after over 400 replies in this thread......."Is it okay to recommend wierwille's books to others?"
[ ] Yes
[ X] No
Please check the appropriate box.
Easy, peasy.
Xmarks the (Grease) spot (couldn't find a check mark)....and you can quote me on this - i checked "No" - i would never in a million millenniums recommend vpw's books
I’ll do a short, simple subject that doesn’t require you coming over to my side of the big ‘IF.”This subject will be in the category of something that slipped by us unawares. This one looks like it was deliberately hidden.
In WWAY the Chapter titled “The Third Heaven and Earth” we all remember how Paul was “caught up” to the third heaven in II Cor. 13.
In that book on page 88 (in the original Edition)we were taught that “caught up”should be “caught away.”Vpw there writes:
“Whenever we speak or think of the words “caught up,” we think of them in terms of height. However, that is not the meaning of the word used in the text; “caught up” would be more clearly translated as ‘caught away.’”
So far everything is simple, up front, and out in the open. Harpazo figuratively means “taught by revelation.” But then watch. He writes:
“I will give all the usages of this word harpazo in the New Testament, so that each student may study theis translated as follows: “catcheth,” John 10:12; “catcheth away,” Matthew 13:19; Acts 8:39; “catch up,” II Corinthians 12:2,4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 12:5; “pluck,” John 10:28,29; “pull,” Jude 23; and “take by force,” Matthew 11:12; John 6:15; Acts 23:10. These could all be translated “catch” or “catch away.” In II Corinthians 12:2 and 4 harpazo is in the aorist tense denoting a “once and one time only occurrence.” Paul was caught up to the third heaven, paradise, once and only once. He was given this revelation once and for all.”
Did you catch it? Buried in that list we here can see that I Thess 4:17 is included.
I Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So, in a quiet, buried way we were given the info that at the Return, it’s not height that happens, it’s being taught by revelation that happens, like what Paul got!
The cover up continues in this chapter, in that this verse, I Thess 4:17, comes up again in this same WWAY chapter, on pate 100. Yet, there’s no mention that height is out and revelation teaching is in.
But it IS repeated, again in secretive manner, in another way. In the next Volume IV God’s Magnified Word, we were AGAIN given this “drop the height” idea in hidden form.There on page 294 a large chunk of I Thess 4 is quoted, and we see this verse printed thusly:
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be be changed. caught up [away] together with them in the For this corruptible must put on incorruption, clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…”
In a tiny bracket we’re again given the teaching that at the Return, it’s not height in the sense of altitude above Sea Level that it’s talking about. It’s a rise from a partial 5-senses understanding to atotal spiritual understanding.
It's kind of a parable, I guess, except it really happened.
When I was just a little whipper, I wanted to be a cowboy.
Maybe you did too. Lots of kids did back then.
More than anything, I wanted a Palomino pony.(That's that beautiful golden color you see in the movies.)
Trouble is, that's not too realistic for a kid in the inner city.
One day, as I was out front playing broomstick cowboy with the neighbor kid, I happened to look down toward the end of the block just in the nick of time to see something that was a beautiful golden color, turning the corner, moving away from us.
What do you suppose it was I saw?
Yep. You guessed it.
It was, of all things, a Palomino pony.
Just to be sure, I asked the neighbor if she had seen it too.
She was sure she had.
We grabbed our broomsticks and set out immediately, at a full gallop, in pursuit of that buckin' bronco.
There was no time to consider where we would keep it or what we would feed it.
We were on a mission.
We were so excited, we didn't even notice the houses that became a blur as we flew past them.
Huffing and puffing, we made it to the end of the street and turned the corner.
And there it was, our Palomino pony.
He was still on the run, though, and we only caught a glimpse of that magnificent yellow tail streaming in the wind as it turned the next corner at full speed.
We only paused long enough to catch a quick gulp of air as we both looked at each other in a knowing fashion.
We knew we had to continue the pursuit.
Off we went, gasping for air and straining to run just a little bit faster in an effort to gain some distance.
At last, we made it to the next corner.
Again, we only caught a glimpse of that golden tail and his rear hooves as he toyed with our chase as if it were a game.
The scenario repeated itself until we were back where we started and the pony we wanted so badly had vanished into thin air.
If you still believe The Way can make fantasy come true you'll spend forever gasping at thin air.
Its not a concept thats hidden invics plagaraized writings. Just keep it simple. Read whats written. God doesnt want us ignorant of spiritual matters, remember?
1 Corinthians 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
A bit off topic this, but responds to Mike's post about being "caught away."
With God, time is an eternal NOW. Time does not have the sequential arrangement we understand. RIGHT NOW Adam is being created, is sinning, and is being cast out. RIGHT NOW the books of the OT, all of them, are being written. RIGHT NOW Jesus is being conceived, born, living his life, being murdered, and rising. RIGHT NOW we are living our lives, in the present as we understand it, and in the future as we do not yet perceive those lives. God invented time and inhabits it. And His time is not our timescale.
Many Christians understand this. It is also borne out by astronomical data. That's way beyond what my brain comprehends.
I wonder if the "caught away" part is a peek into the future, or a peek into the spiritual world that is invisible to us?
A couple of references: Elijah being "caught up" in 2 Kings 2:11; and 2 Ki 6:17 where the spiritual war is going on all around Elisha and his servant, and Elisha prays that his servant gets that peek into the spiritual world around him.
On another note, being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air clearly means what it says and says what it means. Altitude cannot be ignored in the context.
Mike, Wierwolfs books do not contain purposefully constructed grammer that contain esoteric secrets when worked further. The collaterals are a hodge podge collection of his early sermons, and of course a smattering of material taken from all over the place. Way publications, along with presidents publications have worked for years to smooth out error and contradiction. Surely, if vp writings were god breathed God would have worked in all these spirit filled editors to preserve every jot and tittle. Dont ya think?
So, according to Einstein's Relativity, if Jesus held a laser pointer during the ascension, the people on the ground would be in one frame of reference, while Christ, traveling at a different speed, would be in another frame of reference. How would the two frames of reference be resolved for the appearance of the laser? This is another reason the plagiarism is important. VPW didn't cite References, and just assumed it would all work.
Since Christ was The Word Made Flesh, where was the Word? In the Beginning. The Big Bang. Cosmic Background Radiation can be seen in the form of microwaves on your old TV set, the static black and white dots. This is electromagnetic radiation leftover from time following The Big Bang, which was In The Beginning, with The Word, which was with God, which was God.
So someone's analytic skills can be put to good use. Find an old television set, turn it on, stare at the static. You WILL see the Beginning. And In The Beginning is The Word. Pay attention to every Dot and Tittle.
...So someone's analytic skills can be put to good use. Find an old television set, turn it on, stare at the static. You WILL see the Beginning. And In The Beginning is The Word. Pay attention to every Dot and Tittle.
ya know...you got me thinking - i wonder if some test patterns were designed by a grad who was very impressed with the session on the four crucified
It’s very understandable that when faced with new and astounding ideas that the mind balks and employs numerous methods for dealing with extreme anomaly. I understand this. I went through it when first encountering these ideas.
Just to help you though, let me reiterate one of the simple things I am doing.
It’s documenting items in the tape record and print record that we either did not absorb back then 30 and 40 years ago, or that we totally forgot.
I’m also pointing out how these ideas hidden fit together, and in a way most beneficial to us.
Let’s locate and examine our mind pictures of what the Return of Christ is really all about. Some may need modification.
Above the hills, higher than eagles we're gliding Suspended in the sky Over the moon Straight for the sun we were riding My eyes were filled with light Behind us, black walls Below was a bottomless canyon Floating with no sound Ghosts far below Seemed to be suddenly rising Exploding all around
Thanks for that Byrds tune, Waysider - it's funny how me being an old city boy took such a likin' to it - my best friend and drummer in my first band turned me on to that...love it
It’s very understandable that when faced with new and astounding ideas that the mind balks and employs numerous methods for dealing with extreme anomaly. I understand this. I went through it when first encountering these ideas.
. . .
Let’s locate and examine our mind pictures of what the Return of Christ is really all about. Some may need modification.
God's Word never comes back void.
If some stranger you're witnessing too won't obey, it's because of THEIR unbelief. They've read their Bible wrong. Your job is to keep speaking The TRUTH of God's Word. Nevermind the FEAR when they've asked you to leave and they've called the cops. Are you going to obey GOD or obey THE WORLD?
It’s very understandable that when faced with new and astounding ideas that the mind balks and employs numerous methods for dealing with extreme anomaly. I understand this. I went through it when first encountering these ideas...
What you're saying may be similar to what some folks experience - who are so shocked they go into denial when they're confronted with vpw's plagiarism, hypocrisy, licentious lifestyle, falsehoods of experiences and credentials.
Denial is a common reaction , of course; but rather than thinking of it as a hopeless mental trap - freedom is possible; sometimes it takes a stiff upper lip to face reality - maybe in bite size pieces though - and to consider that uncomfortable feeling of letting go of certain delusions as growing pains in developing critical thinking.
The mind does have an amazing ability to deceive itself and perhaps that's especially true when one is so enthralled with an idea that they are unwilling to give it up.
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I don't agree with a single word if this. Such a wild claim requires a big burden of proof. His theological claims are unsubstantiated, his Greek was lousy at best, and his Biblical studies were fra
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TLC
How something so simple got (or can get) so screwed up in people's head and heart is mind boggling. My apologies, if the following sounds a bit preachy (because it is, and I'm not a preacher)... but the stupidity of some of the things said in this thread seem to have stirred me in a way to say some things that I normally wouldn't.
After Adam screwed the pooch and coalesced his mind to the world, what men (mankind) could (and did) believe became dependent on the world around them. Hence, the need for (and promise of) Christ, to reveal God (who is spirit) to senses oriented mankind. First given to Adam, of course, but... pretty much lost and/or ignored by the time of Noah & sons. So, God calls out one man (Abram), who eventually reaches the point of believing the impossible (according to anything and everything that can typically be known by your senses), that God can and will raise (the promised) one from the dead. Being the first, he (Abraham) is therefore called the father of all that believe.
And, as you know, he was the patriarch of a nation (Israel.) A nation set "above all nations that are upon the earth." Shown many great signs, miracles, and wonders... which, if possible, should have moved them closer to believing God. But did it? Despite spelling out in rather intricate detail the coming of the Messiah, the nation of Israel failed to recognize and accept Jesus as the Christ. "Show us a sign" was their cry. Evidently they were at one with the world, and couldn't believe anything other than what could be shown them. (Know anyone else like that?)
Why would God do that? Favor an entire nation, that when it came right down to it, could no more or better believe God than the rest of mankind. Well, maybe it was simply to prove that by your senses (the norm of all men) it can't be done. Christ was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. Did the original apostles, hand picked by Jesus Christ, believe it? Oh, they knew he was dead. There was no problem believing that. But alive? Nope, Not without seeing it "for real." So, after his resurrection he presented himself 40 days to his disciples, "by many infallible proofs" . (Seems like a rather tough bunch to convince. But such was/is the nature of man, and this was designed to convince the lot of them ,)
Now, just exactly what "went away" on the day of the Ascension?
Well, so much for "the infallible proofs" that were given to some. Maybe it was time to see if the nation of Israel could be weaned from its addiction to the world, and its need for "signs" to believe that the promised Messiah had come. But, by the conclusion of Act 7, that too, was a no go. And low and behold, it was time to give anyone else in the rest of the world a shot at it. The fundamental barrier? Can (or do) you believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and was raised from the dead (and lives now)?
Well, that's impossible, right? What "proof" is there for that? Probably none whatsoever. (By design, if you want my opinion.) Yet, I know to the uttermost depths of my heart and soul, it's true. Perhaps my brain is simply hardwired to believe it; I can't say for sure. But at this point in time, all of life and learning fits and flows together with it, and I'm fully aware that there is neither a disconnect or a reversibility that exists (or ever will) for it.
Being seated at the right hand of God, Christ is definitely not "absent" from the presence of God. Maybe you don't see it the same way, but if you had a right hand man, wouldn't he be right there with you where ever you were? (Especially after telling him, Stick right here close beside me until some stuff gets set in order...) Or, would you send him off to relax on some island whilst you went along and about your merry way? So, wherever God is present, Christ is also (regardless of whether or not you think so.)
If you think that meeting the Lord "in the air" somehow or in some way refers to him coming to the stratosphere of the earth from some far way place, maybe it's worth giving a little more thought to what else that might mean. Because there's a "change" spoken of that goes along with that. There is not going to be any "less personal presence" of Christ beforehand and "more presence" of him afterwards. Currently, the spiritual world remains invisible to the naked eye. Might that ever change? Probably not, but change the naked eye... and its ability to perceive reality will change. Where does "spirit" live or exist? In the air, perhaps? (compare that to Eph.2:2.) We are "the body of Christ." The difficulty in understanding that is that we just can't now see and don't yet know what a spiritual body is or looks like.
All that said, I do not believe that we (who are Christ's) need (nor will we ever get) something/anything else extra "coming into evidence" (i.e., revealed) - be it written, signed, sealed, or delivered - prior to our gathering together unto him. What was given, written in scripture nearly 2000 years ago, is sufficient, and will remain a powerful testimony to the grace, and manifold wisdom of God until the fullness of times for it is come. (Which, on a personal note, I believe is indeed very close at hand.) Those who can and do choose to believe it, will live this life (until changed) accordingly.
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T-Bone
"i wish you could read it in the original...it's just so so"
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skyrider
So, after over 400 replies in this thread......."Is it okay to recommend wierwille's books to others?"
Please check the appropriate box.
Easy, peasy.
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OldSkool
After playing along with Mike, id have to say no. Do not recomnend Wierwolfs book to others....lol
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Bolshevik
Yes, I would recommend them. You didn't get "to whom" correct.
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T-Bone
X marks the (Grease) spot (couldn't find a check mark)....and you can quote me on this - i checked "No" - i would never in a million millenniums recommend vpw's books
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I agree, The Answer is a loud NO!
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Mike
Ok, take a breather.
I’ll do a short, simple subject that doesn’t require you coming over to my side of the big ‘IF.” This subject will be in the category of something that slipped by us unawares. This one looks like it was deliberately hidden.
In WWAY the Chapter titled “The Third Heaven and Earth” we all remember how Paul was “caught up” to the third heaven in II Cor. 13.
In that book on page 88 (in the original Edition) we were taught that “caught up” should be “caught away.” Vpw there writes:
“Whenever we speak or think of the words “caught up,” we think of them in terms of height. However, that is not the meaning of the word used in the text; “caught up” would be more clearly translated as ‘caught away.’”
So far everything is simple, up front, and out in the open. Harpazo figuratively means “taught by revelation.” But then watch. He writes:
“I will give all the usages of this word harpazo in the New Testament, so that each student may study the is translated as follows: “catcheth,” John 10:12; “catcheth away,” Matthew 13:19; Acts 8:39; “catch up,” II Corinthians 12:2,4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 12:5; “pluck,” John 10:28,29; “pull,” Jude 23; and “take by force,” Matthew 11:12; John 6:15; Acts 23:10. These could all be translated “catch” or “catch away.” In II Corinthians 12:2 and 4 harpazo is in the aorist tense denoting a “once and one time only occurrence.” Paul was caught up to the third heaven, paradise, once and only once. He was given this revelation once and for all.”
Did you catch it? Buried in that list we here can see that I Thess 4:17 is included.
I Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So, in a quiet, buried way we were given the info that at the Return, it’s not height that happens, it’s being taught by revelation that happens, like what Paul got!
The cover up continues in this chapter, in that this verse, I Thess 4:17, comes up again in this same WWAY chapter, on pate 100. Yet, there’s no mention that height is out and revelation teaching is in.
But it IS repeated, again in secretive manner, in another way. In the next Volume IV God’s Magnified Word, we were AGAIN given this “drop the height” idea in hidden form. There on page 294 a large chunk of I Thess 4 is quoted, and we see this verse printed thusly:
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be be changed. caught up [away] together with them in the For this corruptible must put on incorruption, clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…”
In a tiny bracket we’re again given the teaching that at the Return, it’s not height in the sense of altitude above Sea Level that it’s talking about. It’s a rise from a partial 5-senses understanding to a total spiritual understanding.
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Mike
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waysider
Mike
I've got a little Stowwwry for you.
It's kind of a parable, I guess, except it really happened.
When I was just a little whipper, I wanted to be a cowboy.
Maybe you did too. Lots of kids did back then.
More than anything, I wanted a Palomino pony.(That's that beautiful golden color you see in the movies.)
Trouble is, that's not too realistic for a kid in the inner city.
One day, as I was out front playing broomstick cowboy with the neighbor kid, I happened to look down toward the end of the block just in the nick of time to see something that was a beautiful golden color, turning the corner, moving away from us.
What do you suppose it was I saw?
Yep. You guessed it.
It was, of all things, a Palomino pony.
Just to be sure, I asked the neighbor if she had seen it too.
She was sure she had.
We grabbed our broomsticks and set out immediately, at a full gallop, in pursuit of that buckin' bronco.
There was no time to consider where we would keep it or what we would feed it.
We were on a mission.
We were so excited, we didn't even notice the houses that became a blur as we flew past them.
Huffing and puffing, we made it to the end of the street and turned the corner.
And there it was, our Palomino pony.
He was still on the run, though, and we only caught a glimpse of that magnificent yellow tail streaming in the wind as it turned the next corner at full speed.
We only paused long enough to catch a quick gulp of air as we both looked at each other in a knowing fashion.
We knew we had to continue the pursuit.
Off we went, gasping for air and straining to run just a little bit faster in an effort to gain some distance.
At last, we made it to the next corner.
Again, we only caught a glimpse of that golden tail and his rear hooves as he toyed with our chase as if it were a game.
The scenario repeated itself until we were back where we started and the pony we wanted so badly had vanished into thin air.
If you still believe The Way can make fantasy come true you'll spend forever gasping at thin air.
I hope you find your golden pony someday.
Really, I do
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OldSkool
Its not a concept thats hidden invics plagaraized writings. Just keep it simple. Read whats written. God doesnt want us ignorant of spiritual matters, remember?
1 Corinthians 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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Twinky
With God, time is an eternal NOW. Time does not have the sequential arrangement we understand. RIGHT NOW Adam is being created, is sinning, and is being cast out. RIGHT NOW the books of the OT, all of them, are being written. RIGHT NOW Jesus is being conceived, born, living his life, being murdered, and rising. RIGHT NOW we are living our lives, in the present as we understand it, and in the future as we do not yet perceive those lives. God invented time and inhabits it. And His time is not our timescale.
Many Christians understand this. It is also borne out by astronomical data. That's way beyond what my brain comprehends.
I wonder if the "caught away" part is a peek into the future, or a peek into the spiritual world that is invisible to us?
A couple of references: Elijah being "caught up" in 2 Kings 2:11; and 2 Ki 6:17 where the spiritual war is going on all around Elisha and his servant, and Elisha prays that his servant gets that peek into the spiritual world around him.
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Twinky
And I'm putting my Grease mark firmly in the NO category, for recommending VPW's books to anyone.
I think I burned mine so that no-one else could read them and be influenced by them.
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OldSkool
On another note, being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air clearly means what it says and says what it means. Altitude cannot be ignored in the context.
Mike, Wierwolfs books do not contain purposefully constructed grammer that contain esoteric secrets when worked further. The collaterals are a hodge podge collection of his early sermons, and of course a smattering of material taken from all over the place. Way publications, along with presidents publications have worked for years to smooth out error and contradiction. Surely, if vp writings were god breathed God would have worked in all these spirit filled editors to preserve every jot and tittle. Dont ya think?
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Bolshevik
So, according to Einstein's Relativity, if Jesus held a laser pointer during the ascension, the people on the ground would be in one frame of reference, while Christ, traveling at a different speed, would be in another frame of reference. How would the two frames of reference be resolved for the appearance of the laser? This is another reason the plagiarism is important. VPW didn't cite References, and just assumed it would all work.
Since Christ was The Word Made Flesh, where was the Word? In the Beginning. The Big Bang. Cosmic Background Radiation can be seen in the form of microwaves on your old TV set, the static black and white dots. This is electromagnetic radiation leftover from time following The Big Bang, which was In The Beginning, with The Word, which was with God, which was God.
So someone's analytic skills can be put to good use. Find an old television set, turn it on, stare at the static. You WILL see the Beginning. And In The Beginning is The Word. Pay attention to every Dot and Tittle.
Edited by BolshevikPutting Facts before Truth
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T-Bone
ya know...you got me thinking - i wonder if some test patterns were designed by a grad who was very impressed with the session on the four crucified
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waysider
I fixed that for you.
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Mike
It’s very understandable that when faced with new and astounding ideas that the mind balks and employs numerous methods for dealing with extreme anomaly. I understand this. I went through it when first encountering these ideas.
Just to help you though, let me reiterate one of the simple things I am doing.
It’s documenting items in the tape record and print record that we either did not absorb back then 30 and 40 years ago, or that we totally forgot.
I’m also pointing out how these ideas hidden fit together, and in a way most beneficial to us.
Let’s locate and examine our mind pictures of what the Return of Christ is really all about. Some may need modification.
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waysider
Above the hills, higher than eagles we're gliding
Suspended in the sky
Over the moon
Straight for the sun we were riding
My eyes were filled with light
Behind us, black walls
Below was a bottomless canyon
Floating with no sound
Ghosts far below
Seemed to be suddenly rising
Exploding all around
HERE
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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T-Bone
Thanks for that Byrds tune, Waysider - it's funny how me being an old city boy took such a likin' to it - my best friend and drummer in my first band turned me on to that...love it
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waysider
My pleasure, T-Bone.
We've all chased a chestnut mare or two in our time, haven't we?
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T-Bone
Boy, I’ll say ! and that reminds me - I also chased after a one trick pony for 12 years, whose only area of expertise was being a charlatan.
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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Bolshevik
God's Word never comes back void.
If some stranger you're witnessing too won't obey, it's because of THEIR unbelief. They've read their Bible wrong. Your job is to keep speaking The TRUTH of God's Word. Nevermind the FEAR when they've asked you to leave and they've called the cops. Are you going to obey GOD or obey THE WORLD?
Ephesians 4:15.
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T-Bone
What you're saying may be similar to what some folks experience - who are so shocked they go into denial when they're confronted with vpw's plagiarism, hypocrisy, licentious lifestyle, falsehoods of experiences and credentials.
Denial is a common reaction , of course; but rather than thinking of it as a hopeless mental trap - freedom is possible; sometimes it takes a stiff upper lip to face reality - maybe in bite size pieces though - and to consider that uncomfortable feeling of letting go of certain delusions as growing pains in developing critical thinking.
The mind does have an amazing ability to deceive itself and perhaps that's especially true when one is so enthralled with an idea that they are unwilling to give it up.
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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