Is it okay to recommend wierwilles books to others?

[Mike]

5 hours ago, TLC said:

What planet are you on? Did you forget that the Word was already made flesh ~2000 years ago?  Was it somehow undone or made "not flesh" sometime after that?  Or maybe...

 

At the Ascension he became no longer personally present, until the Return, the parousia.

Call it the absent Christ or not, SOMETHING went away on the day of the Ascension.

 

 

 

[Mike]

I think I found the button. I'll try it.

Clip from Living Victoriously in Hope-13.mp3

[Mike]

That clip has a lot of context. Here is the last half:

 

Abraham put hope aside, and he claimed the son that God had promised him.

Let me explain this to you.

Believing is action, right class? And the Word ... the Word of God ... is the foundation for the action.

Hope is always something you can't have now. It's in the future. Not presently attainable unless ... and here's the key ... it is translated into a moment of decision by the revealed Word, which would bring it into reality, and that would be if God gave revelation ..

Abraham, ninety-nine ... Sara, ninety. God said you gonna have a baby. So... ordinarily hoping for a baby was all he had. Hoping and hope can't bring it into reality, but because of what God said ...

God gave special revelation ... he was able to believe, and he turned hope into a present reality.

That's Abraham. How's come you cannot then by special revelation bring the return of Christ tonight?

Oh, because the revelation's already been given in the Word.

He's not coming back, because you need special revelation. The Word says he's coming back in fullness of time. It says as he came the first time when the fullness of time was come ...

God sent His only begotten Son born of a what? Woman ... and that's the same truth that He puts in the Word ... he is coming back ...

this same Jesus, which ye have seen go shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go ... when the hour of God is right. That's what He says in the Word so prayin' about it is not going to retard or facilitate the return of Jesus Christ. He's coming back when He's ready, and only He knows it. No man knoweth the day or the hour, remember? It's the Word, people. [laughs].

Hope, for instance, is like a man who makes an investment. He considers that investment in light of the future, right? That's hope.

[OldSkool]

No wonder TWI pulled a lot of vp teachings and such. The double talk is mind numbing, or maybe the drambuie numbed vics mind.

Mike, u have elevated vp schtik above scripture. U probably should look into that.

[T-Bone]

11 hours ago, Mike said:

At the Ascension he became no longer personally present, until the Return, the parousia.

Call it the absent Christ or not, SOMETHING went away on the day of the Ascension.

 

Maybe in wierwille’s mind something went away (besides wierwille's conscience and reason)

but scripture speaks of Christ’s continued presence:

 

For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them. Matthew 18:20 ESV

Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age. Matthew 28:20 ESV

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39 ESV  

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20 ESV

So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, Ephesians 3:17 ESV

To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Colossians 1:27 ESV

Edited June 8, 2017 by T-Bone
clarity

[OldSkool]

Yep....that absent Christ is garble straight from anti christ

[Mike]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

but scripture speaks of Christ’s continued presence:

 

I know that, and agree with it, and celebrate it. There is undoubtedly some kind of presence or essence or spirit of Christ that is present and comforting.  We don't need to get lost in the "absent Christ" controversy in vpw's teachings right here.

Scripture ALSO says there's some kind of INCREASE in his personal presence coming in the future.

That would mean before the Return there is less of this personal presence; after the Return more presence.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Mike

[Bolshevik]

12 hours ago, Mike said:

One of the big reasons I started thinking VERY differently about the Return and the PFAL books was "Living Victoriously in Hope."  

In that teaching is ANOTHER thing that slipped by us all unnoticed, yet deposited in the recorded for future access.   I've been collecting these kinds of items for 19 years now.

 

 

Does anyone remember what he taught on Romans 4:18 in LV 1982 how Abraham "turned hope into believing" and it's application to today?  It's like an Indiana Jones passage where he pulls out this astounding gem, and then buries it like a hidden treasure. No one noticed, yet it's right on the tape. Chris Geer's transcript mangles it a little. I can post the accurate transcript.

Is it possible for me to post the .mp3 of that few minutes?

This LV passage basically says that the Return of Christ had moved from the future hope category to the presently available believing category.  He said this in front of many hundreds of people, many thousands more heard the tape, and yet I’ve not yet run into one grad who remembers it.  I did not hear it until 1999, but I was looking for things like this by that time.

The way that vpw said this gem, and then tucked it away and distracted everyone’s attention was like a  master magician.

You have to hear it to see what I’m talking about. He really pulls a fast one here.  Some of it was from how fast he said certain things, and certain things he pointed to.  I’ve analyzed it from many angles; heard it many times. I’d love to post the mp3.

If anyone has the tapes, it should be easy to find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're pulling fast ones on yourself and seeing things that are not there.  Nobody else "noticed" because it wasn't important.  Not that you could really know that.

Nor do you know VPW's thoughts.  

Magician?  Like at a circus?

Barnum Effect

 

 

 

[OldSkool]

Mike ... My ex wife was an editor in way publications for several years. Many of vic and craigs tapes were pulled due to rants, tangents, slandrr, foul language, and just plain inaccuricies in the presentations. Thats why Rosie set the current teaching format and controls in plcace- so the teachings would stand the test of times. 

Thats also why there are so many revisions for remaining written publications. Error and styling issues were rampant with earlier versions. Now what does that say for Plaf?

[Mike]

When you work the text, what that LV passage says is vpw got special revelation that now is the time to turn our hope into believing.

It's pretty complex, but if anyone is interested, I can show you the analysis. I've worked with this passage for 18 years. You folks have had only a day or two to look at it.  It’s a super unique and novel topic “hope turning to believing!”  I’ve searched pretty well and can find no other teaching on this ever.

It's pretty complex, and parts of it make no sense whatsoever, UNTIL  you see that the special revelation is the PFAL writings.

When he says: “Oh, because the revelation's already been given in the Word.” he means the PFAL writings here too.  He can’t be referring to the KJV here.  I can show how that fits.

So, if anyone wants to work the text in detail, the small ending portion, I have it all written up and can contribute to such a discussion.

What I’m trying to point out here is that there are many things in the record we did not pick up on or remember, this is a big one.

***

Another lost or unnoticed item crucial to the Return is in Volume III, The Word’s Way.

In that book, right under our noses, was printed a piece of vpw’s teaching that at the Return, we don’t physically rise above the earth to a high altitude. The rising to meet the Lord in the air is figurative is a secret vpw teaches in his books, but in hidden form.

When it’s pointed out to you, though, it’s easy to see it. H plainly taught there that at the Return we rise in a spiritual sense, not physically.  Very few grads who know this, but there it is in print.

 

 

[Bolshevik]

13 minutes ago, Mike said:

. . .

When he says: “Oh, because the revelation's already been given in the Word.” he means the PFAL writings here too.  He can’t be referring to the KJV here.  I can show how that fits.

. . . .

This has to be the greatest thing I've ever read on this website.  Top ten at least.

[Mike]

1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

This has to be the greatest thing I've ever read on this website.  Top ten at least.

You haven't seen the analysis; only the conclusion. 

When every word is analyzed you'll see a whole lot that goes over your head in a casual listening to the tape. THis is not an easy one to pick apart, but I've had many years to work on it. Try your hand at it. Listen a few times and then read real slowly.

[Bolshevik]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

You haven't seen the analysis; only the conclusion. 

When every word is analyzed you'll see a whole lot that goes over your head in a casual listening to the tape. THis is not an easy one to pick apart, but I've had many years to work on it. Try your hand at it. Listen a few times and then read real slowly.

Ok, yes, I think everyone should read what you're saying carefully, to see what's really going on there for themselves. 

[Mike]

Specifically, on the LV clip, it's the way he answers his own rhetorical question that intrigues me.

Here's the rhetorical question: "How's come you cannot then by special revelation bring the return of Christ tonight?"

[Bolshevik]

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

Specifically, on the LV clip, it's the way he answers his own rhetorical question that intrigues me.

Here's the rhetorical question: "How's come you cannot then by special revelation bring the return of Christ tonight?"

I feel like it's its own punchline, but how's come?

[OldSkool]

any analysis on plaf will be as flawed as plaf.

[Bolshevik]

No see, Mike is silent now . . . which means VPW was silent . . . 

which can only mean . . . 

VPW brought about his own personal return of Christ via believing of special revelation through constantly working the Word.

He's just waiting for the rest of us.

Mike may even be there now.

*mind blown*

[OldSkool]

7 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

No see, Mike is silent now . . . which means VPW was silent . . . 

which can only mean . . . 

VPW brought about his own personal return of Christ via believing of special revelation through constantly working the Word.

He's just waiting for the rest of us.

Mike may even be there now.

*mind blown*

This may be one of the funniest posts ive read in a while.

[T-Bone]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I know that, and agree with it, and celebrate it. There is undoubtedly some kind of presence or essence or spirit of Christ that is present and comforting.  We don't need to get lost in the "absent Christ" controversy in vpw's teachings right here.

Scripture ALSO says there's some kind of INCREASE in his personal presence coming in the future.

That would mean before the Return there is less of this personal presence; after the Return more presence.

maybe you are but I'm not lost in the controversy...vpw said "the word" takes the place of the absent Christ...of course, a lot of folks here realize vpw's "the word" was actually his twisted interpretation of scripture. obviously, there's some folks still lost in vpw's "the word".

[Mike]

1 minute ago, T-Bone said:

maybe you are but I'm not lost in the controversy...

I wasn't referring to you.

What I meant was: this sub-topic of the LV clip need not get derailed (better word than "lost"?) into that other topic many discuss here, namely the "absent Christ" topic.

[T-Bone]

29 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

any analysis on plaf will be as flawed as plaf.

perhaps a little fine-tuning = using the mindset promoted in PFAL to analyze PFAL would be flawed indeed.

= = = =

comedy break:

why did the pigeon cross the chess board?

to crap on the other side.

[Raf]

Actually, I found an analysis of PFAL using the mindset promoted by PFAL disproves Mike's thesis to the extent that he stayed off this board for more than a decade before returning to crap on the board and claim victory.

 

If PFAL is God's Word, then PFAL has to live up to what PFAL defines as the characteristics of God's Word.
It does not. Therefore it is not.

"But yes it does!" No, it doesn't.

"But I dodged and deflected and distracted for more than 10 years!" You did. And the errors are still errors. The contradictions are still contradictions. PFAL is not God's Word by PFAL's definition. That's a tough thing to escape.

Ironically, you can make a decent case for PFAL being God's Word if you concede that PFAL was wrong about the characteristics about God's Word. But then it wouldn't be nearly as impressive.

[T-Bone]

good point, Raf

[OldSkool]

43 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

perhaps a little fine-tuning = using the mindset promoted in PFAL to analyze PFAL would be flawed indeed.

 

Yes! Now we have worked the post back to Oldskools original intent. 

[Mike]

It’s obvious to me that on YOUR side of the big “IF,” none of this that I’m posting makes sense.  There’s no point in my trying to make it fit with you. Likewise, there’s no point in your trying to make me want to abandon my side because of the objections (or jeering) you post from YOUR side’s perspective. That’s stuff I already know.

But MY side of the big “IF” is pretty unknown to you still. It’s new and you haven’t heard the details of my analysis (from my side of the IF).

Now on MY side of the big “IF,” that is, IF God really did pull a fast one and slip His Word into the world, via lots of people besides vpw, into the PFAL publications, THEN  all these weird (from your side) things line up, are not no weird after all, and we have some gold to show for our efforts in the ministry.

If what I’m saying is true, then we didn’t COMPLETELY waste our lives on TWI. Some of it was worth efforts. I’m just keen on identifying WHAT that good in the ministry was.

 

***

 

It certainly is the case that vpw TOLD US on tape and in print that he was doing this (publishing God-breathed works), and in many ways, some quite subtle. This I can document voluminously.  It’s interesting to see the many things that slipped by us (me included) all, and/or that were forgotten.