I also spent 11 years researching and corresponding with Walter in the 70s and early 80s on the topic of the “Who put together the New Testament scriptures and when?” otherwise known as the Canon of Scripture. Kinda like the NT “Editors” if you will? My old paper-file folder on this almost 3 inches thick.
Mike - do you spend this much time and effort in actually searching the scriptures?
Jesus said: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (Jn 5:39) Testify of whom? Of Jesus Christ - not of any man, and especially, the scriptures do not testify about VPW!
Beware, Mike, if you are not searching the scriptures, because Jn 5:40 warns, it seems sorrowfully to me: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." If you can't find Jesus in simply searching the scriptures but need to actually come to him - however can you find him, and the life he offers, by searching something other than the scriptures?
Beware this also, Mike: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?" (Jn 5:44-45)
Mike - do you spend this much time and effort in actually searching the scriptures?
Jesus said: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (Jn 5:39) Testify of whom? Of Jesus Christ - not of any man, and especially, the scriptures do not testify about VPW!
Beware, Mike, if you are not searching the scriptures, because Jn 5:40 warns, it seems sorrowfully to me: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." If you can't find Jesus in simply searching the scriptures but need to actually come to him - however can you find him, and the life he offers, by searching something other than the scriptures?
Beware this also, Mike: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?" (Jn 5:44-45)
Twinky,
Like anyone I go in phases as to how much I read. I think about it all the time and review things in my head a lot, too. In the days when I was studying the Canon and filling that 3 inch thick folder it was mostly the KJV that I was into.
But also consider this: every time I open up a PFAL collateral I’m exposed to many verses and sometimes large passages of the same KJV verses. I think that counts for something. There are times when reading PFAL that I suddenly want to go to may KJV for more context. That happens.
A caveat for you: when reading your KJV is that the actual scriptures you’re searching?
Or is that a scholarly, man-made attempt to translate another scholarly attempt to reconstruct texts that were pretty well scrambled for 3 or 4 centuries before being systematically preserved? Remember that the adversary was intimately involved in those centuries of scrambling, and then he joins (being in charge of all worldly kingdoms) the scholars as the try to unscramble it all.
Beware that your scripture searching isn’t really just searching of man-made counterfeits of the scriptures.
*************
TLC,
Are you new here? I don’t remember your username from 10 years ago.
What I said above to Twinky applies to our discussion also. I have a slight surprise for you about the Canon. The hunch Walter and I had and were working toward was that the SAME people God entrusted with the revelations were the people who “edited” it and decided which books to put where. We could see from the scriptures that the right attitudes were in place for this to happen. What the apostles and their assistants put together in their lifetimes was not recognized for a few more centuries. The traditional Canon studies always focus on this later perioe of time, and wrongly assume that it was totally un-together before hand. I personally think Timothy had the first copy, but he was totally ignored by history. Makes sense.
My Canon research was oddly, mostly in my KJV. For a decade, every time I opened it I saw another clue to the First Century Canon. For example, all of Paul’s epistles were collected together by the time II Peter was written, where they are mentioned as a set. Another: at the end of Paul’s life he threw a Scripture Party with Timothy, Mark, and Luke. I literally found hundreds of such clues as to how God did it, some even in the Old Testament.
***
As to those Thessalonians tapes, I’m remembering better what’s in them. If you can’t find them let me know; I’ll get them to you somehow.
What I’m remembering is that vpw said that USUALLY, but not always it’s done with discussion before being put into written form. He does not use the word “editor.” He uses the word “discuss.”
From my discussions with several of vpw’s editors, that’s pretty much how they did it, only on paper. Karen and J.Fred would type up a chapter from the film’s transcript, submit it to vpw, receive back his red-line notes, and then maybe have another round, until (like with Uncle Harry) he says something to indicate he’s not budging.
I laughed when you wrote this: “Never did I hear what you now claim are there. Something like that just doesn't fit with anything I've ever thought, and it would undoubtedly have jumped out at me and slapped me in the face had anything like that been said.”
That pretty much sums up my reaction when I first heard these passages many years ago. But I was attuned to these kinds of things. I had once thought I would be a technical writer of editor. I was on fire for words and the writing and publishing process. I saw the coincidences in my life that were lining up for this kind of attention, and I collected many items like this. They all still kinda shock me.
***
Just in case this one comes up again: I know vpw's later books were written by committee.
I also know that in the same academic institutions where plagiarism is fought so diligently (and cheered on here in doing so) it’s considered TOTALLY HONORABLE for a professors’ grad students to write 90% of a book which bears only the name of the professor as authior, and only MAYBE a tiny acknowledgement to the assistants. We can talk about how this is honorable later. It is.
I also know that in the same academic institutions where plagiarism is fought so diligently (and cheered on here in doing so) it’s considered TOTALLY HONORABLE for a professors’ grad students to write 90% of a book which bears only the name of the professor as authior, and only MAYBE a tiny acknowledgement to the assistants.
1.The Way was not and is not an academic institution.
2. Wierwille was not a professor.
3. The authors he plagiarized in producing the PFAL materials were not his grad students nor were they his assistants.
But other than that,...yeah, it's exactly the same. /s
I have a slight surprise for you about the Canon. The hunch Walter and I had and were working toward was that the SAME people God entrusted with the revelations were the people who “edited” it and decided which books to put where.
Walter and you... (enough already.) You sat at a table with him how many times?
Name drop all you want. Given the Pauline epistles are never found in any other order, it's a rather common belief that Paul probably set them in order after requesting that Timothy bring them with him to Rome. Quite frankly, how some of the others are organized just isn't as important or relevant to whether or not they were ultimately included.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
***
As to those Thessalonians tapes, I’m remembering better what’s in them.
Maybe you'll remember even better if (or after) I have time to pull 'em out and listen to them again.
Walter and you... (enough already.) You sat at a table with him how many times?
Name drop all you want. Given the Pauline epistles are never found in any other order, it's a rather common belief that Paul probably set them in order after requesting that Timothy bring them with him to Rome. Quite frankly, how some of the others are organized just isn't as important or relevant to whether or not they were ultimately included.
Maybe you'll remember even better if (or after) I have time to pull 'em out and listen to them again.
He and I exchanged letters back and forth a few times, met 2 times in his office, and 1 time in tape duplicating where I worked. We talked at lunch a tiny bit a few times and by phone after I left HQ once or twice. All from from 1972 to 1988. Not name dropping; just want to show you how serious I was about the editing process. I was on fire about it.
***
I found the spot in Thess tape #1, about 10 minutes and 20 seconds into it.
So far, what I heard is the word "taught" in the place where my faulty memory thought was the word "discuss" but that word may come up later. I'm not done hearing it. Plus there's another spot for II Thess 1:1 deep into the set of tapes.
Like anyone I go in phases as to how much I read. I think about it all the time and review things in my head a lot, too. In the days when I was studying the Canon and filling that 3 inch thick folder it was mostly the KJV that I was into.
But also consider this: every time I open up a PFAL collateral I’m exposed to many verses and sometimes large passages of the same KJV verses. I think that counts for something. There are times when reading PFAL that I suddenly want to go to may KJV for more context. That happens.
A caveat for you: when reading your KJV is that the actual scriptures you’re searching?
Or is that a scholarly, man-made attempt to translate another scholarly attempt to reconstruct texts that were pretty well scrambled for 3 or 4 centuries before being systematically preserved? Remember that the adversary was intimately involved in those centuries of scrambling, and then he joins (being in charge of all worldly kingdoms) the scholars as the try to unscramble it all.
Beware that your scripture searching isn’t really just searching of man-made counterfeits of the scriptures.
Since scholarly "man-made"attempts are in fact pretty scholarly, look at the cast of players for most reputable Bible versions (translators). They aren't one man's version of what it says; nor are they simply decision by committee.
It is useful to read passages in more than one version, which gives a wider look-round of words and thoughts that have been translated, and also keeps vocabulary up to date (one of the reasons VPW used "KJV" was to show off hisability at understanding - at understanding what Bible scholars have been teaching and printing in later versions, for centuries. Yet he taught it - ha ha - as if he were the only one who knew this.
"...every time I open up a PFAL collateral I’m exposed to many verses and sometimes large passages of the same KJV verses. I think that counts for something."
No, it counts for nothing. Read these verses for yourself and in context. VPW was outrageous at taking verses out of context, choosing what supported whatever point he propounded at the time. You must know that, surely? Even in AV (what you call KJV; try getting the name right, for starters) in many printings there are references back to OT passages where a fragment is quoted in the NT. Did VPW ever refer people back to the OT? Have you ever looked back into the OT at what's referenced? Sometimes the OT passage referred to goes on for several chapters. The OT is not irrelevant; it's a significant part of the background and thinking in the gospels (you read them too, don't you?) as well as in the epistles.
Did you go to Sunday school as a child? If so, you will probably know the second verse to the one I'm going to reference in a moment. Be sure you aren't putting yourself in the second verse category.
(sings) "The wise man built his house upon the rock..."
I found the spot in Thess tape #1, about 10 minutes and 20 seconds into it.
So far, what I heard is the word "taught" in the place where my faulty memory thought was the word "discuss" but that word may come up later. I'm not done hearing it. Plus there's another spot for II Thess 1:1 deep into the set of tapes.
Didn't have time for the tapes, but, out of curiosity I did go pull an old copy of the transcript for it. (You can knock yourself out on 2Thess if you want, but I did a quick check there as well.) Want it verbatim?
Before anything is written, basically (it isn't an iron clad law by revelation, but generally speaking) it is first taught. The men of God of the Old Testament, as well as the New, usually shared the truth with one or two larger groups of people before it was written. In this particular epistle, I believe that Silas and Timothy were the one's taught, to whom he shared and with whom he discussed the revelation regarding this truth or these truths that are in Thessalonians. Then, sometime after that (and I do not believe later than 52 AD, around 50 AD maybe) it was put in writing.
14 hours ago, Mike said:
I laughed when you wrote this: “Never did I hear what you now claim are there. Something like that just doesn't fit with anything I've ever thought, and it would undoubtedly have jumped out at me and slapped me in the face had anything like that been said.”
That pretty much sums up my reaction when I first heard these passages many years ago. But I was attuned to these kinds of things. I had once thought I would be a technical writer of editor. I was on fire for words and the writing and publishing process. I saw the coincidences in my life that were lining up for this kind of attention, and I collected many items like this. They all still kinda shock me.
Was it a slap in the face, or kick in the head that rang your bell?
Didn't have time for the tapes, but, out of curiosity I did go pull an old copy of the transcript for it. (You can knock yourself out on 2Thess if you want, but I did a quick check there as well.) Want it verbatim?
Before anything is written, basically (it isn't an iron clad law by revelation, but generally speaking) it is first taught. The men of God of the Old Testament, as well as the New, usually shared the truth with one or two larger groups of people before it was written. In this particular epistle, I believe that Silas and Timothy were the one's taught, to whom he shared and with whom he discussed the revelation regarding this truth or these truths that are in Thessalonians. Then, sometime after that (and I do not believe later than 52 AD, around 50 AD maybe) it was put in writing.
Was it a slap in the face, or kick in the head that rang your bell?
Help! I'm smothering in metaphors.
What most moved me with this tape is the idea that the revelation of the scriptures was NOT done in a manner that some people describe as "Divine Dictation." The revelation first comes, then gets taught and discussed and clarified as to how it can be communicated best, and finally it's put into final written form.
The process vpw describes on that tape is identical to the process in which he was engaged, along with his editor assistants!
Even in the Old Testament, the men to whom God committed His revelations to would often have documented assistants, and sometimes they even had a dose of the same spirit upon them. After Pentecost all the assistants (and editors) could have spirit within.
The process vpw describes on that tape is identical to the process in which he was engaged, along with his editor assistants!
You think that, because it's what you want to believe, so it becomes the only way you can see it.
But, as mentioned in an earlier post, I have personally heard (probably on more than one occasion) vpw plainly and very clearly say (to paraphrase) that when it was written, there was no editing of it. None whatsoever. Paul didn't start to write it one way, then back up, change a word, then continue writing. It flowed out, and that was it.
Which is dang near the opposite of what you are supposing. Personally, I think it makes no difference how long before any bits and pieces (or chunks) of truth were revealed and made known to Paul. I suspect most (if not all) of what is later referred to as "his gospel" was revealed to him over a course of time spent in Arabia after his escape from Damascus, years before the school of Tyrannus, which also was years before what was written to the Thessalonians. And to put it bluntly, VPW said a lot of things in WC teachings that were just his opinion, and should be as viewed nothing more... or you'll miss things (concerning the truth) a lifetime, and never know it.
For instance, Paul taught at the school of Tyrannus (prior to his trip to Thessalonians.) He also taught in Thessalonica (duh...)
Why would anyone think that much of what is written in Thessalonians was "brand new" to them, or that they had never heard any of it before?
So, why "limit" the truths in it to just having been taught to Timothy and Silas prior to it being written? Makes no sense.
Neither do I think that Paul was diligently practicing, rehearsing, or in any other way deliberately "getting ready" to write Thessalonians ahead of time. Was God preparing him ahead of time? Of course. That doesn't say or mean that Paul knew what (all) God was prepping him for. After all, who ever does? But when it was time... write! And, there it was.
But, as mentioned in an earlier post, I have personally heard (probably on more than one occasion) vpw plainly and very clearly say (to paraphrase) that when it was written, there was no editing of it. None whatsoever. Paul didn't start to write it one way, then back up, change a word, then continue writing. It flowed out, and that was it.
I'd very much like to hear more of what you remember here. It's likely on tape somewhere. I don't see any contradiction, though, between the Thess 1:1 tape and your report. The tape above mentions the process BEFORE it got written, not during. The process of vpw/karen/j.fred hearing the teaching taught and then discussing it with him was the process BEFORE it got published. Yes, this discussion was largely on paper. I see the editing/discussion as prior to committing it ti writing.
I’d like to get back to the connection between vpw’s books and the Return of Christ.
IF it’s the case that God pulled a fast one and injected His freshly written Word into the world by coordinating the activities of many researchers, writers, and teachers for many decades (like from Bullinger’s teachers through to vpw), then sooner or later I have to ask WHY NOW?
I know this is a colossally big “IF” and emotionally difficult for some to even consider, but I have taken it up and am delighted by what I find afterwards.
Can anyone see how great a blessing it is for us to be given a fresh set of English revelations, regardless of the delivery man who dropped it off at our door?
So, taking up this huge “IF” I must eventually ask WHY NOW?What is God up to?
I believe it’s because we're already in the early beginnings of the Return of Christ. THAT is the why and when for the PFAL books. The Return starts with the written Word, then it goes to the Word made flesh.
Most grads can not well receive this because the standard model of the Return has no early stages at all; just a sudden rush upwards.But this suddenness I question.
Two thousand years ago almost everyone had the details of his First Coming quite wrong, and as a result many did not even recognize him.Should we take the hint and suspect some possible errors in our own traditional mind images of the Return?Will we try to force him to mold into our expectations, or should it be the reverse? We were given an extra warning about the surprise nature of his Second Coming: like a thief in the night.
I believe we already are into the beginning of the Return, and that it is already underway, just not at all according to our expectations. The reason for the PFAL books is to prepare us for these surprises, and get us ready to see Christ Jesus at some point in the parusia.
The scriptures are clear that there are no ways to predict the timing of the Return, and the PFAL writings concur. They also mention a sudden flash, an atom in time, where things change.But what is the time sequence? When exactly does the sudden flash occur, and what events happen that are NOT sudden, but take time?
I see the books as containing the pure mind of Christ. As we build the contents of the books within we grow from having the hope of glory, to the glory itself.
At his first coming he was mostly not recognized. With the contents of these books infused into our activities and minds, recognizing him in the early stages of the Return is guaranteed.
So, there’s suddenly a lot more on the table to hash through.
As far as I understand, VPW used "The Written Word", extreme sola scriptura, as a means of displacing God and Jesus in mainstream Christianity. A follower gets so focused on interpreting verses they can't see the forest for the trees. Typical meanings of words are lost, ambiguity becomes the norm, the mind is deconstructed, any idea from seemingly nowhere becomes acceptable.
Mike has basically added VPW's works to the canon?
As far as I understand, VPW used "The Written Word", extreme sola scriptura, as a means of displacing God and Jesus in mainstream Christianity. A follower gets so focused on interpreting verses they can't see the forest for the trees. Typical meanings of words are lost, ambiguity becomes the norm, the mind is deconstructed, any idea from seemingly nowhere becomes acceptable.
Mike has basically added VPW's works to the canon?
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Twinky
Mike - do you spend this much time and effort in actually searching the scriptures?
Jesus said: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (Jn 5:39) Testify of whom? Of Jesus Christ - not of any man, and especially, the scriptures do not testify about VPW!
Beware, Mike, if you are not searching the scriptures, because Jn 5:40 warns, it seems sorrowfully to me: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." If you can't find Jesus in simply searching the scriptures but need to actually come to him - however can you find him, and the life he offers, by searching something other than the scriptures?
Beware this also, Mike: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?" (Jn 5:44-45)
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Mike
Twinky,
Like anyone I go in phases as to how much I read. I think about it all the time and review things in my head a lot, too. In the days when I was studying the Canon and filling that 3 inch thick folder it was mostly the KJV that I was into.
But also consider this: every time I open up a PFAL collateral I’m exposed to many verses and sometimes large passages of the same KJV verses. I think that counts for something. There are times when reading PFAL that I suddenly want to go to may KJV for more context. That happens.
A caveat for you: when reading your KJV is that the actual scriptures you’re searching?
Or is that a scholarly, man-made attempt to translate another scholarly attempt to reconstruct texts that were pretty well scrambled for 3 or 4 centuries before being systematically preserved? Remember that the adversary was intimately involved in those centuries of scrambling, and then he joins (being in charge of all worldly kingdoms) the scholars as the try to unscramble it all.
Beware that your scripture searching isn’t really just searching of man-made counterfeits of the scriptures.
*************
TLC,
Are you new here? I don’t remember your username from 10 years ago.
What I said above to Twinky applies to our discussion also. I have a slight surprise for you about the Canon. The hunch Walter and I had and were working toward was that the SAME people God entrusted with the revelations were the people who “edited” it and decided which books to put where. We could see from the scriptures that the right attitudes were in place for this to happen. What the apostles and their assistants put together in their lifetimes was not recognized for a few more centuries. The traditional Canon studies always focus on this later perioe of time, and wrongly assume that it was totally un-together before hand. I personally think Timothy had the first copy, but he was totally ignored by history. Makes sense.
My Canon research was oddly, mostly in my KJV. For a decade, every time I opened it I saw another clue to the First Century Canon. For example, all of Paul’s epistles were collected together by the time II Peter was written, where they are mentioned as a set. Another: at the end of Paul’s life he threw a Scripture Party with Timothy, Mark, and Luke. I literally found hundreds of such clues as to how God did it, some even in the Old Testament.
***
As to those Thessalonians tapes, I’m remembering better what’s in them. If you can’t find them let me know; I’ll get them to you somehow.
What I’m remembering is that vpw said that USUALLY, but not always it’s done with discussion before being put into written form. He does not use the word “editor.” He uses the word “discuss.”
From my discussions with several of vpw’s editors, that’s pretty much how they did it, only on paper. Karen and J.Fred would type up a chapter from the film’s transcript, submit it to vpw, receive back his red-line notes, and then maybe have another round, until (like with Uncle Harry) he says something to indicate he’s not budging.
I laughed when you wrote this: “Never did I hear what you now claim are there. Something like that just doesn't fit with anything I've ever thought, and it would undoubtedly have jumped out at me and slapped me in the face had anything like that been said.”
That pretty much sums up my reaction when I first heard these passages many years ago. But I was attuned to these kinds of things. I had once thought I would be a technical writer of editor. I was on fire for words and the writing and publishing process. I saw the coincidences in my life that were lining up for this kind of attention, and I collected many items like this. They all still kinda shock me.
***
Just in case this one comes up again: I know vpw's later books were written by committee.
I also know that in the same academic institutions where plagiarism is fought so diligently (and cheered on here in doing so) it’s considered TOTALLY HONORABLE for a professors’ grad students to write 90% of a book which bears only the name of the professor as authior, and only MAYBE a tiny acknowledgement to the assistants. We can talk about how this is honorable later. It is.
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waysider
1.The Way was not and is not an academic institution.
2. Wierwille was not a professor.
3. The authors he plagiarized in producing the PFAL materials were not his grad students nor were they his assistants.
But other than that,...yeah, it's exactly the same. /s
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TLC
Walter and you... (enough already.) You sat at a table with him how many times?
Name drop all you want. Given the Pauline epistles are never found in any other order, it's a rather common belief that Paul probably set them in order after requesting that Timothy bring them with him to Rome. Quite frankly, how some of the others are organized just isn't as important or relevant to whether or not they were ultimately included.
Maybe you'll remember even better if (or after) I have time to pull 'em out and listen to them again.
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Raf
A bit of advice to those who weren't engaged in this debate a decade ago...
You're playing chess with a pigeon.
No offense inten... oh, who am I kidding? Offense intended. Sorry.
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Mike
He and I exchanged letters back and forth a few times, met 2 times in his office, and 1 time in tape duplicating where I worked. We talked at lunch a tiny bit a few times and by phone after I left HQ once or twice. All from from 1972 to 1988. Not name dropping; just want to show you how serious I was about the editing process. I was on fire about it.
***
I found the spot in Thess tape #1, about 10 minutes and 20 seconds into it.
So far, what I heard is the word "taught" in the place where my faulty memory thought was the word "discuss" but that word may come up later. I'm not done hearing it. Plus there's another spot for II Thess 1:1 deep into the set of tapes.
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Mike
That's alright, Raf. No offense taken. I can pigeon-hole it off to the side.
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Mike
I'm aware of these items, but it was roughly the same process.
It's the idea I was relaying, not the legality.
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waysider
A horse is roughly the same thing as a cow. They both have 4 legs each and live in a barn.
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Mike
If we were Veterinarians, then they could be even closer to roughly the same thing. Do you like animals?
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Bolshevik
Sorry I thought this was asteroid.
pew pew . . . pew pew pew pew . . . pew . . . pew . . . pew pew pew pew pew pew
and was covered in The Class. You people just don't remember.
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Twinky
Since scholarly "man-made"attempts are in fact pretty scholarly, look at the cast of players for most reputable Bible versions (translators). They aren't one man's version of what it says; nor are they simply decision by committee.
It is useful to read passages in more than one version, which gives a wider look-round of words and thoughts that have been translated, and also keeps vocabulary up to date (one of the reasons VPW used "KJV" was to show off his ability at understanding - at understanding what Bible scholars have been teaching and printing in later versions, for centuries. Yet he taught it - ha ha - as if he were the only one who knew this.
"...every time I open up a PFAL collateral I’m exposed to many verses and sometimes large passages of the same KJV verses. I think that counts for something."
No, it counts for nothing. Read these verses for yourself and in context. VPW was outrageous at taking verses out of context, choosing what supported whatever point he propounded at the time. You must know that, surely? Even in AV (what you call KJV; try getting the name right, for starters) in many printings there are references back to OT passages where a fragment is quoted in the NT. Did VPW ever refer people back to the OT? Have you ever looked back into the OT at what's referenced? Sometimes the OT passage referred to goes on for several chapters. The OT is not irrelevant; it's a significant part of the background and thinking in the gospels (you read them too, don't you?) as well as in the epistles.
Did you go to Sunday school as a child? If so, you will probably know the second verse to the one I'm going to reference in a moment. Be sure you aren't putting yourself in the second verse category.
(sings) "The wise man built his house upon the rock..."
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skyrider
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T-Bone
Warming up for the big chess game, the lone pigeon kept chanting "be the pawn...be the pawn...be the pawn."
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OldSkool
Why not? You never know what was revealed to vic by his dog while smashing a bottle of Drambouie.
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TLC
Didn't have time for the tapes, but, out of curiosity I did go pull an old copy of the transcript for it. (You can knock yourself out on 2Thess if you want, but I did a quick check there as well.) Want it verbatim?
Before anything is written, basically (it isn't an iron clad law by revelation, but generally speaking) it is first taught. The men of God of the Old Testament, as well as the New, usually shared the truth with one or two larger groups of people before it was written. In this particular epistle, I believe that Silas and Timothy were the one's taught, to whom he shared and with whom he discussed the revelation regarding this truth or these truths that are in Thessalonians. Then, sometime after that (and I do not believe later than 52 AD, around 50 AD maybe) it was put in writing.
Was it a slap in the face, or kick in the head that rang your bell?
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Mike
Help! I'm smothering in metaphors.
What most moved me with this tape is the idea that the revelation of the scriptures was NOT done in a manner that some people describe as "Divine Dictation." The revelation first comes, then gets taught and discussed and clarified as to how it can be communicated best, and finally it's put into final written form.
The process vpw describes on that tape is identical to the process in which he was engaged, along with his editor assistants!
Even in the Old Testament, the men to whom God committed His revelations to would often have documented assistants, and sometimes they even had a dose of the same spirit upon them. After Pentecost all the assistants (and editors) could have spirit within.
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OldSkool
Im sure they all held hands n sang kum by ya.
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TLC
You think that, because it's what you want to believe, so it becomes the only way you can see it.
But, as mentioned in an earlier post, I have personally heard (probably on more than one occasion) vpw plainly and very clearly say (to paraphrase) that when it was written, there was no editing of it. None whatsoever. Paul didn't start to write it one way, then back up, change a word, then continue writing. It flowed out, and that was it.
Which is dang near the opposite of what you are supposing. Personally, I think it makes no difference how long before any bits and pieces (or chunks) of truth were revealed and made known to Paul. I suspect most (if not all) of what is later referred to as "his gospel" was revealed to him over a course of time spent in Arabia after his escape from Damascus, years before the school of Tyrannus, which also was years before what was written to the Thessalonians. And to put it bluntly, VPW said a lot of things in WC teachings that were just his opinion, and should be as viewed nothing more... or you'll miss things (concerning the truth) a lifetime, and never know it.
For instance, Paul taught at the school of Tyrannus (prior to his trip to Thessalonians.) He also taught in Thessalonica (duh...)
Why would anyone think that much of what is written in Thessalonians was "brand new" to them, or that they had never heard any of it before?
So, why "limit" the truths in it to just having been taught to Timothy and Silas prior to it being written? Makes no sense.
Neither do I think that Paul was diligently practicing, rehearsing, or in any other way deliberately "getting ready" to write Thessalonians ahead of time. Was God preparing him ahead of time? Of course. That doesn't say or mean that Paul knew what (all) God was prepping him for. After all, who ever does? But when it was time... write! And, there it was.
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Mike
I'd very much like to hear more of what you remember here. It's likely on tape somewhere. I don't see any contradiction, though, between the Thess 1:1 tape and your report. The tape above mentions the process BEFORE it got written, not during. The process of vpw/karen/j.fred hearing the teaching taught and then discussing it with him was the process BEFORE it got published. Yes, this discussion was largely on paper. I see the editing/discussion as prior to committing it ti writing.
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Mike
I’d like to get back to the connection between vpw’s books and the Return of Christ.
IF it’s the case that God pulled a fast one and injected His freshly written Word into the world by coordinating the activities of many researchers, writers, and teachers for many decades (like from Bullinger’s teachers through to vpw), then sooner or later I have to ask WHY NOW?I know this is a colossally big “IF” and emotionally difficult for some to even consider, but I have taken it up and am delighted by what I find afterwards.
Can anyone see how great a blessing it is for us to be given a fresh set of English revelations, regardless of the delivery man who dropped it off at our door?
So, taking up this huge “IF” I must eventually ask WHY NOW? What is God up to?
I believe it’s because we're already in the early beginnings of the Return of Christ. THAT is the why and when for the PFAL books. The Return starts with the written Word, then it goes to the Word made flesh.
Most grads can not well receive this because the standard model of the Return has no early stages at all; just a sudden rush upwards. But this suddenness I question.
Two thousand years ago almost everyone had the details of his First Coming quite wrong, and as a result many did not even recognize him. Should we take the hint and suspect some possible errors in our own traditional mind images of the Return? Will we try to force him to mold into our expectations, or should it be the reverse? We were given an extra warning about the surprise nature of his Second Coming: like a thief in the night.
I believe we already are into the beginning of the Return, and that it is already underway, just not at all according to our expectations. The reason for the PFAL books is to prepare us for these surprises, and get us ready to see Christ Jesus at some point in the parusia.
The scriptures are clear that there are no ways to predict the timing of the Return, and the PFAL writings concur. They also mention a sudden flash, an atom in time, where things change. But what is the time sequence? When exactly does the sudden flash occur, and what events happen that are NOT sudden, but take time?
I see the books as containing the pure mind of Christ. As we build the contents of the books within we grow from having the hope of glory, to the glory itself.
At his first coming he was mostly not recognized. With the contents of these books infused into our activities and minds, recognizing him in the early stages of the Return is guaranteed.
So, there’s suddenly a lot more on the table to hash through.
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Bolshevik
As far as I understand, VPW used "The Written Word", extreme sola scriptura, as a means of displacing God and Jesus in mainstream Christianity. A follower gets so focused on interpreting verses they can't see the forest for the trees. Typical meanings of words are lost, ambiguity becomes the norm, the mind is deconstructed, any idea from seemingly nowhere becomes acceptable.
Mike has basically added VPW's works to the canon?
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T-Bone
maybe vpw's works should be added to this cannon
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