Is it okay to recommend wierwilles books to others?

[Mike]

9 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

"…. There are clear qualifications for a minister, qualifications that VPW included in his books and totally ignored in his own walk. The guy was corrupt. These arent unfounded accusations. His own grandchildren have told me a lot more than i post here. Many of the abused post here. GSC tells the other side of the story, the side twi wants covered up."

 

I agree, for humans selecting ministers, he'd be out.

For the God Who's ways are not out ways, He is allowed to select anyone for a specific job He wants.

God sees things we human selectors can't see. Our selections are pretty good, but miss some things. God's selection is perfect.

I'll bet a lot of people were very unhappy when He selected Paul to bear the Mystery. Paul would have been rejected from the minister's job too, had he applied to human selection committees. 

I'm very unhappy with it also, the way things turned out, but I am happy with the books. Somehow God got them through and distributed them around the world.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Mike

[Mike]

Balaam would have been rejected as a minister, yet God selected him to bring forth some pure words that greatly blessed God's people.  He's another Biblical icon that helps us understand the very stormy seas we went through mixed with great blessings.

[OldSkool]

16 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

I agree, for humans selecting ministers, he'd be out.

For the God Who's ways are not out ways, He is allowed to select anyone for a specific job He wants.

 

I guess God ignored his own Word. 1 Timothy 3 lays out qualifications for church leadership. Paul quit the sins he was commiting in persecuting the church. VPW never quit, never admitted his crimes, did all he could to hide his sins.

Paul dedicated his life, open and honest before God and men. He admitted his crimes as persecutor of the church and quit his previous sins. Do you realize the double standards/talk u have to utilize to make ypur arguments? Easy for me to recognize it because i used to think the same way.

[waysider]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

 

I think the reason so many of us did have positive experiences was due to our exposure to these writings. 

You and I disagree on that point. I think the reason for any positive experiences we had was do to our interaction with a lot of good people. Any positive experiences we had were in spite of, not because of, the tripe in those sophomoric writings.

. Did you notice I also compared vpw to King Saul?    

Yes, I happened to notice that. I liken myself to King Arthur. 

I see it as Simpleton City to harbor an image of a pure bad guy.

I'm sure you realize that's a backhanded ad hominem... Whatever.

. Your pure bad guy thesis is totally lacking credibility.

That's quite a twist there, Mike. I never said he was a purely bad guy. There is, however, quite a bit of credible evidence of his nefarious deeds, not the least of which is a propensity for plagiarism. We are, after all, still talking about the value of his books, are we not?

 

[Mike]

44 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I guess God ignored his own Word. 1 Timothy 3 lays out qualifications for church leadership. Paul quit the sins he was commiting in persecuting the church. VPW never quit, never admitted his crimes, did all he could to hide his sins.

Paul dedicated his life, open and honest before God and men. He admitted his crimes as persecutor of the church and quit his previous sins. Do you realize the double standards/talk u have to utilize to make ypur arguments? Easy for me to recognize it because i used to think the same way.

 

First of all, there's a big difference between being selected to be a minister in an organization and being selected to get the Word into writing in great defiance of stale traditions and erroneous doctrines.

Two different jobs, two different selectors, two different standards.

The reason our standards differ from God's standards is our inability to see deep and far in time.  God gives us standards where (since we will often err in applying such standards) we err on the safe side.

God, Who sees all, need not play it so safe, and can make moves we consider not on the safe side.

 

[waysider]

These Biblical comparisons are an exercise in flawed logic. They are begging us to draw an unwarranted conclusion.

Now, by comparing him to Paul, you're asking us to believe that he was hand picked by God to (in essence) rewrite the scriptures.

Do you have any idea how ludicrous this is?

[Mike]

9 minutes ago, waysider said:

I see it as Simpleton City to harbor an image of a pure bad guy.

I'm sure you realize that's a backhanded ad hominem... Whatever.

Yes, you are right. I apologize. It was the phonetic alliteration that seduced me. I wasn't paying good attention there.  The jury shall disregard that comment.

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Balaam would have been rejected as a minister, yet God selected him to bring forth some pure words that greatly blessed God's people.  He's another Biblical icon that helps us understand the very stormy seas we went through mixed with great blessings.

I was going to start a list of people who'd also likely be rejected.  Maybe start with Jesus or Hitler or Shakespeare.  Jesus didn't write books though.  The other two aren't Biblical.  

 

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, waysider said:

These Biblical comparisons are an exercise in flawed logic. They are begging us to draw an unwarranted conclusion.

Now, by comparing him to Paul, you're asking us to believe that he was hand picked by God to (in essence) rewrite the scriptures.

Do you have any idea how ludicrous this is?

Yes. 

[Mike]

Do you have any idea how wonderful it is if it's true?

[Mike]

Actually it gets even more crazy when you consider the connection to the Return of Christ.

I'm over due in finishing my story about the Return and the Orange book in hand.

What is ludicrous to you is just as astounding to me.  It testifies of the GREAT grace of God.  Much greater than we're comfortable with now. And the connection to th3e Return just amps it up to Eleven from here.

What I am showing is that I am lucid enough to handle almost all your objections, and show that this position I've taken, that God has blessed us with His freshly written Word again, is FAR more consistent than you can conclude upon first hearing.

[waysider]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

Do you have any idea how wonderful it is if it's true?

How can something so riddled with error be wonderful?

[Mike]

waysider,

I think the perception of "riddled with error" comes from not using the right techniques in approaching it. I approach it using different techniques and attitudes than you.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Mike

[OldSkool]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

waysider,

I think the perception of "riddled with error" comes from not using the right techniques in approaching it. I approach it using different techniques and attitudes than you.

Right, like wearing a pair of these....lol

 

[Bolshevik]

Actually, there's a documentary on the technique HERE.

[OldSkool]

Well, Mike, ill read along but endeavor to bow out. Your really not making a whole lot of sense at this point. VPW taught that God commited himself to his Word and cannot violate it. But you claum God chose a drunken sexual predator likeVPW to usher in new scripture, new God breathed Word in the form of PLAF. I guess the bible is complete now. Maybe your just trolling for the fun of it...who knows.

[Mike]

No, OldSkool, not trolling.

There are a lot of grads out there who think SOMEWHAT like me and continue to be blessed with what the books teach them.  They don't come here to try and communicate this, possibly because they are not equipped as I am to deal with the not-so-rose-colored glasses in use here.  

I've been blessed with a few skills, been at the right places and times, and have accumulated a large amount of the materials under discussion.     In some ways I'm speaking up for them.  Your words and attitudes would portray THEM as the simpletons and much more harshly than I just used that word.  They are not in a good position to defend themselves. I think I've shown them how to fearlessly look at these difficulties with lucid and consistent argument. 

I also think it's good for you folks to occasionally face criticism and counter argument. We see how being insulated from that can be corrupting. I wish I could face off with TWI leaders in writing. Wouldn't that be fun?

Edited June 5, 2017 by Mike

[waysider]

26 minutes ago, Mike said:

waysider,

I think the perception of "riddled with error" comes from not using the right techniques in approaching it. I approach it using different techniques and attitudes than you.

What are these different techniques?

Maybe you could select one item from THIS old thread and demonstrate how your techniques are applied.

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, waysider said:

What are these different techniques?

Maybe you could select one item from THIS old thread and demonstrate how your techniques are applied.

The same techniques we were taught to use with apparent discrepancies in the ancient manuscripts. And, yes, I mentioned this in that thread a few times before bowing out.

[waysider]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

The same techniques we were taught to use with apparent discrepancies in the ancient manuscripts. And, yes, I mentioned this in that thread a few times before bowing out.

So, pick out an apparent error (lots to choose from) and demonstrate for the curious just how easy it is... if you don't mind.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

In a previous post you said:

"I approach it using different techniques and attitudes than you."

 

Now you are saying that they are:

"The same techniques we were taught to use with apparent discrepancies in the ancient manuscripts"

 

Which is it? Same or different? I'm anxious to see a demonstration.

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by waysider

[Mike]

20 minutes ago, waysider said:

So, pick out an apparent error (lots to choose from) and demonstrate for the curious just how easy it is... if you don't mind.

Why?  I spent 5 years doing that between 2003 and 2008.  You're asking me to take a lot of time and energy... for what? For you to learn from? No, for you to try and poke holes at, and initiate another round where I show how your hole poking is wrong, and then another round of same. Don't  you remember that routine?

I explained a long time ago that when I work apparent discrepancies in PFAL in a committee setting, it's going to be staffed with like-minded believers. Wouldn't you want to do the same? I want to brainstorm with people who want to move in the same direction as I do, not the opposite. Later, i can face the opposition, like I'm doing now. Have you ever presented yourself with a thesis to a totally antagonistic review committee, that's not at all attuned to the same items you were when writing the thesis?  If so, tell me about it.  But don't expect me to do it.....again.

I'm trying to make this visit different, not identical to those years. I'm trying to connect better to you all on a better level than before. I've been pretty successful with that with a few individuals here over the years.

All of us grads who saw the 1970s have fewer years to burn than we did before.  Like you (I hope), I am interested in lowering bitterness levels.  I think I have a more detailed, accurate, balanced, and peaceful picture of what happened to us in TWI to offer... one where sin can eventually be forgotten...  very slowly for some... but eventually.  I'm talking about the Return.

[waysider]

Gee, Mike, it seems like a pretty easy request. You say you have a different way to deal with actual errors. Fine. How does it apply to something extremely basic, such as "thoroughly" and "throughly"? It doesn't seem like "that would take a lot of time and energy". Then again, I haven't seen a demonstration, so I have no way of really gauging the complexity involved..

Edited June 5, 2017 by waysider

[chockfull]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Actually it gets even more crazy when you consider the connection to the Return of Christ.

I'm over due in finishing my story about the Return and the Orange book in hand.

What is ludicrous to you is just as astounding to me.  It testifies of the GREAT grace of God.  Much greater than we're comfortable with now. And the connection to th3e Return just amps it up to Eleven from here.

What I am showing is that I am lucid enough to handle almost all your objections, and show that this position I've taken, that God has blessed us with His freshly written Word again, is FAR more consistent than you can conclude upon first hearing.

Hi Mike,

You claim that you've handled almost all our objections.  I can't help but notice that you have failed to address any of my 4 posts on this topic which were detailed and raise unanswered objections.

While I know you are conversing with many people on this thread I can't help but wonder if you just don't want to face the points I'm bringing up.

Thank you.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

Hi Mike,

You claim that you've handled almost all our objections.  I can't help but notice that you have failed to address any of my 4 posts on this topic which were detailed and raise unanswered objections.

While I know you are conversing with many people on this thread I can't help but wonder if you just don't want to face the points I'm bringing up.

Thank you.

 

Hello chockfull,

Sorry about that. When there's a whirlwind of posting going on many can get lost. I will look for them.

I also lost a huge chunk of posts from WordWolf that slipped by me. Maybe I should back and do a little more reading.

Just for kicks, can you repost here the earliest one, or  maybe your most burning one?

Edited June 5, 2017 by Mike

[Mike]

On 6/2/2017 at 9:57 AM, chockfull said:

Some of the challenges in discernment is to see evil for what it is, rather than lessening the impact with words, excuses, enablement.

Foibles, or peccadillo's another synonym or adjective often applied to VPW when discussing his character flaws include the "pedicure plus" program, as depicted here:  

http://empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_newwoman.htm

 So are these the "foibles" that God just overlooked while giving VP non-stop revelation?   Or perhaps was he a huckster, a shyster, a con-man when it came to those claims?  Next, does character come into play, or is it just God "automatic writing" something with a possessed vessel?

My thoughts are that is not how it works.  Every man is known by their fruit, not by their ability to be a possessed vessel for use.  

 

Hi chockfull,

I'm getting better using the buttons here and I found this, thinking it might be one of your burning items.

You wrote: “Some of the challenges in discernment is to see evil for what it is, rather than lessening the impact with words, excuses, enablement.”

 

It’s also, perhaps more challenging to see good for what it is. From Romans 7 we see a battle between good and evil even within the apostle Paul. Sometimes evil will mask good, or cause it to be forgotten.

 

***

 You also wrote: “So are these the "foibles" that God just overlooked while giving VP non-stop revelation?”

 

IMO that’s not at all how it could be.

Here’s what I see: God can get a revelation through MUCH, MUCH better if the person is in fellowship.  Some people can get in and out of fellowship MANY times in a day. I know; I’m one.

No one, not Dr, not me, ever claimed he was getting non-stop revelation.

We just had a big discussion here about PFAL page 83 and how Dr said that not all of his writings were God-breathed.

Even when in fellowship we were taught (and Dr claims it worked this way for him too) that we must find out everything we can by the 5-senses, and THEN revelation can be sought and expected if needed to bless God’s people. 

Revelation is not supposed to primarily bless the recipient, but for whom the recipient is ministering to. If a person is out of fellowship, and not the mode of blessing others, then revelations shut off.

Most of Dr’s revelations had to occur when he was in fellowship, something God has made very easy.  If a person slips right back out of fellowship, that’s going to hurt the efficiency of future revelations getting through on time and accurately.

I do not consider this an injustice that Dr would get such revelations. It was a job, and a hard one that he accepted in doing it. He seems to have paid somewhat for his sin toward the end of his life in that he saw no one was getting it.

All this says to me is that God can work with you and me EVEN BETTER than he did if we cultivate deeper quality, sustained fellowship than he did.
 

***

Lastly you wrote: “My thoughts are that is not how it works.  Every man is known by their fruit…”

I hear this a lot.  I look at the fruits NOT in vpw’s life when considering him, like everyone else seems to want to do. I do not have even nearly enough access to his heart and circumstances to do that. I can do it for me, though.

When I “know them by their fruits” it’s by looking at the fruit in MY life they helped me bring forth.  I don’t have the whole story of the fruits in his life, but my life I know pretty well. VPW’s fruit in my life was good. I was not so close to him that I was affected by his failures. I’m thankful for that too.

I refrained from worshiping him in the 1970s, sometimes thinking I was lacking the commitment that others had who were (clearly now) worshiping him. My recent, tempered respect for him arises from the fruit in my life that I grew due to his work along with many others.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Mike