I have no intention of subscribing to the "pure bad guy" theme so many have bonded with here.
It's just as distorted a theme as the "pure good guy" theme that Wierwille worshipers held in the 70s and early 80s.
No person is purely "bad guy" or "good guy".
Including yourself, offering a different opinion on this thread supporting recommending VP's works to others.
All members of the body of Christ, and members in particular with longsuits. But you do have me wondering whether your longsuits might be better served by me digging into storage somewhere to see what I could sell you out of boxes. :)
Let us know for sure if eBay isn't stocked up sufficiently. I'm sure with the resources around here we could sell you a book or two that we haven't contributed to "burn the chaff" day since leaving the Way.
IF it is the case that I’m right and Dr did get these revelations to “put it all together” then the REAL ownership of the intellectual property is God.
I’ll say it again a little differently. IF it’s the case that God gave a revelation (or two or ten) to some of Dr’s sources, then it’s perfectly right and proper for God, the owner of the idea, to tell Dr to go to Styles and use this, this, this, and this, but not that, and not that.
Did you know that in at least one place Dr said that one or another of his sources had received a revelation from God?
Aside from any and all consideration of plagiarism, and any and all failures in his own life... IF the revelation that he received was genuine, then why did the way in which it was/is all "put together" not end up being correct, Mike? It took me years, literally, to arrive at the perspective that I have now on it... years which were long after the over 30+ years of thinking of it in a way that, while nowhere near the extreme as yours appear to be, might not have started as far removed from certain of the points you are evidently content to be stuck on.
Where would you care to start unraveling it? (I responded to the earlier questions you posed, but they seem to have been lost in the shuffle here.) How about the title itself. Power For Abundant Living.
No problem, actually, if we take it as a book on how to live life more abundantly. However, I'm actually no longer of the persuasion that those words were ever written to us, nor intended for anyone outside the nation of Israel (at that time.) And, there is very good, sound scriptural evidence to back me up on that, should you ever care to hear it. (Probably best suited for a doctrinal forum, however.)
I responded to the earlier questions you posed, but they seem to have been lost in the shuffle here.
TLC,
Quite a few posts are getting lost in the shuffle. I have two voluminous batches of WordWolf posts that are piling up.
Because of a backlog at my job, I’m switching to a slower mode of posting. I will be looking for your lost post as I slowly read the previous pages. A brief repetition of it will accelerate things if you think it’s important.
From my point of view I’ve picked the one root cause thing that went right in our Way experience: God got His freshly written Word to us INSPITE of vpw’s foibles.
That means to me that I can do a much better job for God than vpw if I am consistently honest with loving God, and keep my focus on ONLY vpw’s written works, not his personality and flesh. I think when he walked with God he blessed a lot of people. I was one.
"Foibles" - a minor weakness or eccentricity in someone's character; a slight flaw.
Hey my post is for anyone in or out of TWI that still considers vpw in the same category as those who sincerely try to follow Jesus Christ.
I just wanted to point out in this post I quoted the use of the word "foibles" by Mike as lingering evidence of one of the many virulent strains of vp's insidious doctrine and practice whereby vp could justify his own licentious lifestyle, diminishing the gravity of sin, cloaking his hypocrisy, while at the same time subverting the lordship of Jesus Christ and countermanding the moral demands of scripture in the true followers of Jesus Christ.
vp's "foibles" are actually in a category of life-dominating sins - certainly not minor character flaws as some would have us believe; to "attain" that status one has to be a willful, premeditating, recurring offender in one or more types of sin - to which the person "earns" the title adulterer, liar, thief, etc.
You can read all about vp's abuse of power and how he used his licentious twisting of scripture in "Losing the Way" by Kristen Skedgell - she was in vp's way corps training program.
Some of the challenges in discernment is to see evil for what it is, rather than lessening the impact with words, excuses, enablement.
Foibles, or peccadillo's another synonym or adjective often applied to VPW when discussing his character flaws include the "pedicure plus" program, as depicted here:
So are these the "foibles" that God just overlooked while giving VP non-stop revelation? Or perhaps was he a huckster, a shyster, a con-man when it came to those claims? Next, does character come into play, or is it just God "automatic writing" something with a possessed vessel?
My thoughts are that is not how it works. Every man is known by their fruit, not by their ability to be a possessed vessel for use.
In the 50's, vpw was a cipher, except in the little community where he worked. It's hard for YOU to imagine nobody hearing of both vpw and Kenyon and being aware of the contents of Kenyon's books and having contact information for Kenyon-but that wasn't the internet age. Leonard was the only one known to have found out- and he made it clear he was offended by the theft that is plagiarism-he made that clear in writing. He was legally and morally in the right.
vpw WANTED to be a household name-but had to play a careful game. If "his" materials got too wide a dispersal, his rampant plagiarism might have been caught. So, he kept the tapes and collaterals under his grip.
Kenyon died in the late 40's and Bullinger in the late 20's. Neither one of them was alive when Wierwille did his class or wrote his books to sue him for Plagarism of copyrighted materials,
Kenyon died in the late 40's and Bullinger in the late 20's. Neither one of them was alive when Wierwille did his class or wrote his books to sue him for Plagarism of copyrighted materials,
You know, its wild to me that the argument is presented that because nobody came aftet VPee that his plagiarism was acceptable. Isnt that the same logic that would say a person who steals isnt a thief unless they are caught?
"Before proceeding, let's review the written material and its 5-senses meaning.
On page 83 of PFAL, this is exactly what Wierwille wrote, "It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, 'Search the scriptures...' because all scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed."...
[u[In the whole paragraph, Wierwille places his own writings squarely in among the writings of the other men."
Thanks for that Steve Lortz quote, WordWolf! His reference to page 83 of the PFAL book got me to thinking of wierwille’s variegated mind-numbing drivel throughout his books…one of a gazillion reasons why I won’t recommend any of his stuff. I looked at that page today and lo and behold something occurred to me that I never thought of before – but I bet some Grease Spotters have – ok so I’m a slow critical thinker…anyway - quoting PFAL now, page 83:
“Let’s see this from John 5:39 “Search the scriptures….” It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille’s writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, “Search the scriptures…” because all Scripture is God-breathed; not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.”(end of excerpt from Power For Abundant Living, by Victor Paul Wierwille, co. 1971, American Christian Press, New Knoxville, Ohio)
Typically I’ve cited this wierwille quote to show how he was placing some of what he wrote on par with scripture. But since I’ve left TWI and quit self-medicating my brain with wierwille’s nonsense so many questions pop up. Like, ok I get it all scripture is God-breathed – that’s easy – no guess work; but only some of wierwille’s writings are God-breathed. Which parts? How do I identify which parts are God-breathed and which are not?
Maybe he should have put the God-breathed portions of his writings in red ink – you know, like what they do in some Bibles with the words of Christ in red – this way whenever vp spoke ex cathedra you’d know for sure. No need for guesswork or further analysis. (fyi: just because i used a bold red font when quoting PFAL does not mean those particular portions of the book are God-breathed )
Speaking of analysis – I remember another of vp’s intellectual sedatives – probably from the Advance Class – he said something like spiritual knowledge cannot be analyzed only ascertained. Wow that’s a doozy ! Kinda of funny though – he said just the opposite of that in the PFAL book pages 70 & 71 (the chapter on The God-breathed Word)
“Men are prone to use figures of speech haphazardly, but in the Word of God figures of speech are used with divine design. Each and every one of them may be accurately catalogued and analyzed with precision. There is absolutely no guesswork.” (end of excerpt from PFAL)
Think about it – if all scripture is God-breathed I would assume then it’s spiritual knowledge. Yet vp said spiritual knowledge can’t be analyzed. Think about the definition of analyze - examine methodically and in detail the constitution or structure of (something, especially information), typically for purposes of explanation and interpretation.
Maybe it’s just me but I find it a little ironic that the intermittent-god-breathed-writer…religious blowhard…or whatever you wanna call vp – plagiarized the crap out of one prolific writer whose forte was detailed analysis of the Bible – E.W. Bullinger - most notable
Let me set aside for a moment the huge plagiarism issues throughout his body of work. vp did more – much more than just steal other folks’ work and ideas and pass them off as his own. He had a weird knack for amalgamating several disparate strains of thought from Christianity, fundamentalism, Gnosticism, materialism/prosperity theology, magic, and who knows what else.
but he could really whip up some great contradictory claptrap though....And yet, recalling my 12 years of involvement with TWI, the general attitude of myself and any other way-believers i knew - about vp’s body of work was that it was all considered God-breathed…and you could turn off your critical thinking too…after all spiritual knowledge can’t be analyzed. yeah right
You folks are forgetting some details about analysis.
I have no references for this now (I can get them), but from what I've studied and remember, Dr taught us that it’s ONLY in receiving direct revelation that we need to avoid analyzing.
However, additional teaching of his on receiving revelation is the “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit” list he goes through in the AC.
Key #4 (from memory) says “Study the Word much. What you can k now by your 5 senses God expects you to know.”
When it comes to good old 5-senses study analysis is both good and encouraged in Dr’s writings.
A few months ago I did a computer word study in all of Dr’s writings and I could plainly see that the words “analyze” and “analysis” are treated as good words, and expected of all responsible students. Fullness and accuracy in analysis are easily seen as good guys in the written words of VPW.
The reason I did that word study is because I see many grads (just like you guys here) who picked up the idea that Dr taught it’s bad to analyze. This error is directly from the TVT(Twi Verbal Traditions), and not from the written books and magazine articles we were told to master. It’s a sloppy interpretation of the AC material.
Does anyone know if there is a connection between the word "analyze" and "orthotomounta" (sp?) or "right cutting" ?
Analyze involves cutting things up into easy to digest pieces, then putting it all together. Right cutting seems to be an idea along similar lines.
I thought maybe the two words are from different languages, but mean much the same. It makes sense that in study and right dividing, analysis is to be found at the heart of things.
Well, it’s been a few years since I’ve given much thought to the Advance Class material – but I think I remember vp saying something along the lines of the Bible being written revelation. Which makes me ask – what’s the diff between written and direct revelation?
And your reference to “rightly dividing” of II Timothy 2:15 being the equivalent of analyzing I think there’s a slight difference. The NASB translates the phrase as “accurately handling the word of truth” – keeping in mind Paul’s trade of leatherwork and tent making and that he’s writing to other teachers (see verse 2 - faithful men who will be able to teach others also) – in my opinion, what Paul had in mind was the required precision of a skilled tradesman working in his field of expertise. Yes, I would think a skilled tradesman has good analytical skills to properly execute the tasks at hand - which the context of II Timothy 2 seems to be over “cutting it straight” (or accurately handling) as a teacher - as one offering an interpretation of the scriptures to others.
I understand what you’re saying about vp’s ways of encouraging people to think – yeah but he tended to slip in some doubletalk here and there so as to gum up the works and actually thwarts any critical thinking. For example check out what he says in the chapter Are You Limiting God? pages 23 & 24 of The Bible Tells Me So:
“…We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true…The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.”(end of excerpt)
Maybe I’m reading too much into it – but it seems to me vp is pitting the Word of God - spiritual knowledge - against reason…against the five senses. I don’t think vp is “cutting it straight” on any of that stuff! It makes no sense – oh, that’s right - I forgot, my reason does not have first place – too bad, I lose.
You folks are forgetting some details about analysis.
I have no references for this now (I can get them), but from what I've studied and remember, Dr taught us that it’s ONLY in receiving direct revelation that we need to avoid analyzing.
Because of a backlog at my job, I’m switching to a slower mode of posting. I will be looking for your lost post as I slowly read the previous pages. A brief repetition of it will accelerate things if you think it’s important.
The unanswered questions I had for you start on page 4, then jump to page 6. (I'm not sure how to link to a specific post.)
You folks are forgetting some details about analysis.
<snip>
.
.
SUMMARY:
Receiving revelation - avoid analysis
All other thinking - Use analysis a lot
Okay, Mike.........against my better judgment to indulge your wierwille-sycophancy......
The wierwille-shtick was devoid of "receiving revelation" ........the man was a fraud and huckster. In all my cult-years around wierwille, I NEVER ONCE saw the guy receive OR operate revelation......ie word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits. NOT ONE TIME.
Wierwille claimed an 8th corps guy was possessed in the BRC.......wierwille stomped and stammered and did nothing!
The night at corps week when it was pouring rain and the big top tent was dangerously pooling water above.....wierwille blamed the corps.
Wierwille looked me straight in the eyes after my deprogramming experience and said that my parents would be DEAD IN FIVE YEARS for having put me thru that captivity and experience. My Dad lived 27 years longer, my Mom lived 34 years longer........than wierwille's fraudulent "prophecy."
I could give plenty more examples, Mike.........but I don't care to.
After 24 years around Vic, Howard, Don, Dotsie, Emogene, Wanda, and the cult-clan........I saw everything I needed to see. But go ahead and live off the delusions of this scam if you like..........where "the rubber meets the road" it just wasn't there. I don't care how many times you add "references" or "written research" from wierwille.......the scriptures POINTEDLY SAY that we shall know them by their fruit.
And one more thing.......I spent time delving into all that backstory of wierwille's India trip and claims........a nothing burger. Wierwille plagiarized whole swaths of that "foreign missions pamphlet" from others before him. But I seriously doubt that any of this will have any sway over your wierwille-discipleship.
Following thru on my previous post - vp Rightly dividing the Bible? Yeah that's a joke ! As far as vp being capable of rightly dividing it or cutting it straight or accurately handling the interpretation of the Bible - not by a long shot if you consider any of his mangled redefinitions of biblical Greek words (you know he lied about taking Moody Bible College correspondent courses of biblical Greek ) as well as his crimes against logic or any academic discipline. ...
So - There's enough red flags in vp's stuff to warn any reader that does not have the i-love-"doctor"-wierwille-blinders on - - so that they can see thru his charade.
I think the best vp could do at "cutting it straight" was to cut and paste - in other words- his plagiaristic tendencies to cut it straight out of other folks' work - run it thru the vp-annihilate-source-and-context-and-original- author's thought process -machine (aka vp's thing called a brain) and then cobbling it altogether in one hybrid hodge podge of nonsense - which he often referred to by his favorite pet name "the word".
“Let’s see this from John 5:39 “Search the scriptures….” It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille’s writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, “Search the scriptures…” because all Scripture is God-breathed; not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.”(end of excerpt from Power For Abundant Living, by Victor Paul Wierwille, co. 1971, American Christian Press, New Knoxville, Ohio)
Typically I’ve cited this wierwille quote to show how he was placing some of what he wrote on par with scripture.
It's rather hard for me to think that anyone would place anything (or any portion of anything) written in these modern times (by anyone) on par with scripture. I suppose that may have something to do with my own deep rooted beliefs about scripture before ever hearing or seeing anything about vpw. What the above quote does do, however, is carve out a nifty place for vpw alongside of Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, and/or Roberts.
13 hours ago, T-Bone said:
And yet, recalling my 12 years of involvement with TWI, the general attitude of myself and any other way-believers i knew - about vp’s body of work was that it was all considered God-breathed…
Evidently we never knew each other while with TWI.
You folks are forgetting some details about analysis.
I have no references for this now (I can get them), but from what I've studied and remember, Dr taught us that it’s ONLY in receiving direct revelation that we need to avoid analyzing.
However, additional teaching of his on receiving revelation is the “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit” list he goes through in the AC.
Key #4 (from memory) says “Study the Word much. What you can k now by your 5 senses God expects you to know.”
When it comes to good old 5-senses study analysis is both good and encouraged in Dr’s writings.
A few months ago I did a computer word study in all of Dr’s writings and I could plainly see that the words “analyze” and “analysis” are treated as good words, and expected of all responsible students. Fullness and accuracy in analysis are easily seen as good guys in the written words of VPW.
The reason I did that word study is because I see many grads (just like you guys here) who picked up the idea that Dr taught it’s bad to analyze. This error is directly from the TVT(Twi Verbal Traditions), and not from the written books and magazine articles we were told to master. It’s a sloppy interpretation of the AC material.
SUMMARY:
Receiving revelation - avoid analysis
All other thinking - Use analysis a lot
You are looking for patterns in VPWs writings? What patterns are you choosing to see and which are you ignoring?
And what on earth are the Five Senses? There are clearly more senses. You've limited human experience to frame some natural experiences as spiritual. That is grossly dishonest on your part.
"What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know" --- That is impossible. All our minds are continually taking in more information from a multitude of sources than can be analyzed. That's why you used a computer to do your study. Your mind chose to filter out information at some point in time and had to go back over it.
It's rather hard for me to think that anyone would place anything (or any portion of anything) written in these modern times (by anyone) on par with scripture. I suppose that may have something to do with my own deep rooted beliefs about scripture before ever hearing or seeing anything about vpw. What the above quote does do, however, is carve out a nifty place for vpw alongside of Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, and/or Roberts.
Evidently we never knew each other while with TWI.
I would have to agree with you on that, sir! I'm an old Roman Catholic boy (probably knew more Latin than Bible stuff) and never developed any critical thinking skills until after I left TWI.
Over under sideways down, Backwards forwards square and round. Over under sideways down, Backwards forwards square and round. When will it end, when will it end? When will it end, when will it end?
think the best vp could do at "cutting it straight" was to cut and paste - in other words- his plagiaristic tendencies to cut it straight out of other folks' work - run it thru the vp-annihilate-source-and-context-and-original- author's thought process -machine (aka vp's thing called a brain) and then cobbling it altogether in one hybrid hodge podge of nonsense - which he often referred to by his favorite pet name "the word".
This is right on the money. Whats worse the way international considers wierwilles books (at least the ones they approve of and still sell) proven ministry research, and thus above question and error free. They place his books on par with the Bible. Right from the first fellowship a person's indoctrination begins. By the time i graduated into the way corps i had a good plate if scrsmbled way brain with cheese. His stolen material may have some really good content. However, his stolen material is most iften twisted to conform to all things vpw.
Does anyone know if there is a connection between the word "analyze" and "orthotomounta" (sp?) or "right cutting" ?
Analyze involves cutting things up into easy to digest pieces, then putting it all together. Right cutting seems to be an idea along similar lines.
I thought maybe the two words are from different languages, but mean much the same. It makes sense that in study and right dividing, analysis is to be found at the heart of things.
Just wondering.
With so much dissecting and parsing of words resulting from this sort of interpretation of 2Timothy 2:15, you'd think that someone in twi would have done a little better job of looking at that verse in light of Paul's ministry (i.d., gospel), and consider what all that verse might really have meant to communicate. Perhaps it would help to refer back to Phil. 1:9-10 (but do check out the meaning of the word "excellent" there... it's not what you might think.)
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Steve Lortz
Greetings, ImLikeSoConfused! I would have responded to this thread sooner, but I had a heart attack on February 9th which landed me at the hospital DOA. The docs resuscitated me and I've spent th
Longhunter
I don't agree with a single word if this. Such a wild claim requires a big burden of proof. His theological claims are unsubstantiated, his Greek was lousy at best, and his Biblical studies were fra
WordWolf
He sounds a great deal like the last child of one that passed through here, the one that later claimed to be his own Dad posting here to support his own posts, sockpuppet style. The "making up stuff"
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chockfull
No person is purely "bad guy" or "good guy".
Including yourself, offering a different opinion on this thread supporting recommending VP's works to others.
All members of the body of Christ, and members in particular with longsuits. But you do have me wondering whether your longsuits might be better served by me digging into storage somewhere to see what I could sell you out of boxes. :)
Let us know for sure if eBay isn't stocked up sufficiently. I'm sure with the resources around here we could sell you a book or two that we haven't contributed to "burn the chaff" day since leaving the Way.
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TLC
(clipped from Mike's post)
Aside from any and all consideration of plagiarism, and any and all failures in his own life... IF the revelation that he received was genuine, then why did the way in which it was/is all "put together" not end up being correct, Mike? It took me years, literally, to arrive at the perspective that I have now on it... years which were long after the over 30+ years of thinking of it in a way that, while nowhere near the extreme as yours appear to be, might not have started as far removed from certain of the points you are evidently content to be stuck on.
Where would you care to start unraveling it? (I responded to the earlier questions you posed, but they seem to have been lost in the shuffle here.) How about the title itself. Power For Abundant Living.
No problem, actually, if we take it as a book on how to live life more abundantly. However, I'm actually no longer of the persuasion that those words were ever written to us, nor intended for anyone outside the nation of Israel (at that time.) And, there is very good, sound scriptural evidence to back me up on that, should you ever care to hear it. (Probably best suited for a doctrinal forum, however.)
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Mike
TLC,
Quite a few posts are getting lost in the shuffle. I have two voluminous batches of WordWolf posts that are piling up.
Because of a backlog at my job, I’m switching to a slower mode of posting. I will be looking for your lost post as I slowly read the previous pages. A brief repetition of it will accelerate things if you think it’s important.
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T-Bone
"Foibles" - a minor weakness or eccentricity in someone's character; a slight flaw.
definition of "foible"
Hey my post is for anyone in or out of TWI that still considers vpw in the same category as those who sincerely try to follow Jesus Christ.
I just wanted to point out in this post I quoted the use of the word "foibles" by Mike as lingering evidence of one of the many virulent strains of vp's insidious doctrine and practice whereby vp could justify his own licentious lifestyle, diminishing the gravity of sin, cloaking his hypocrisy, while at the same time subverting the lordship of Jesus Christ and countermanding the moral demands of scripture in the true followers of Jesus Christ.
vp's "foibles" are actually in a category of life-dominating sins - certainly not minor character flaws as some would have us believe; to "attain" that status one has to be a willful, premeditating, recurring offender in one or more types of sin - to which the person "earns" the title adulterer, liar, thief, etc.
You can read all about vp's abuse of power and how he used his licentious twisting of scripture in "Losing the Way" by Kristen Skedgell - she was in vp's way corps training program.
Losing the Way - - -at Amazon
Edited by T-Boneimpact
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chockfull
Some of the challenges in discernment is to see evil for what it is, rather than lessening the impact with words, excuses, enablement.
Foibles, or peccadillo's another synonym or adjective often applied to VPW when discussing his character flaws include the "pedicure plus" program, as depicted here:
http://empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_newwoman.htm
So are these the "foibles" that God just overlooked while giving VP non-stop revelation? Or perhaps was he a huckster, a shyster, a con-man when it came to those claims? Next, does character come into play, or is it just God "automatic writing" something with a possessed vessel?
My thoughts are that is not how it works. Every man is known by their fruit, not by their ability to be a possessed vessel for use.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Kenyon died in the late 40's and Bullinger in the late 20's. Neither one of them was alive when Wierwille did his class or wrote his books to sue him for Plagarism of copyrighted materials,
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OldSkool
You know, its wild to me that the argument is presented that because nobody came aftet VPee that his plagiarism was acceptable. Isnt that the same logic that would say a person who steals isnt a thief unless they are caught?
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Mike
Please pardon my foible here.
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T-Bone
Sure Mike - I have no beef with you...but if you feel you've committed the unforgivable foible perhaps you should seek professional help.
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T-Bone
Thanks for that Steve Lortz quote, WordWolf! His reference to page 83 of the PFAL book got me to thinking of wierwille’s variegated mind-numbing drivel throughout his books…one of a gazillion reasons why I won’t recommend any of his stuff. I looked at that page today and lo and behold something occurred to me that I never thought of before – but I bet some Grease Spotters have – ok so I’m a slow critical thinker…anyway - quoting PFAL now, page 83:
“Let’s see this from John 5:39 “Search the scriptures….” It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille’s writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, “Search the scriptures…” because all Scripture is God-breathed; not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures – they are God-breathed.” (end of excerpt from Power For Abundant Living, by Victor Paul Wierwille, co. 1971, American Christian Press, New Knoxville, Ohio)
Typically I’ve cited this wierwille quote to show how he was placing some of what he wrote on par with scripture. But since I’ve left TWI and quit self-medicating my brain with wierwille’s nonsense so many questions pop up. Like, ok I get it all scripture is God-breathed – that’s easy – no guess work; but only some of wierwille’s writings are God-breathed. Which parts? How do I identify which parts are God-breathed and which are not?
Maybe he should have put the God-breathed portions of his writings in red ink – you know, like what they do in some Bibles with the words of Christ in red – this way whenever vp spoke ex cathedra you’d know for sure. No need for guesswork or further analysis. (fyi: just because i used a bold red font when quoting PFAL does not mean those particular portions of the book are God-breathed
)
Speaking of analysis – I remember another of vp’s intellectual sedatives – probably from the Advance Class – he said something like spiritual knowledge cannot be analyzed only ascertained. Wow that’s a doozy ! Kinda of funny though – he said just the opposite of that in the PFAL book pages 70 & 71 (the chapter on The God-breathed Word)
“Men are prone to use figures of speech haphazardly, but in the Word of God figures of speech are used with divine design. Each and every one of them may be accurately catalogued and analyzed with precision. There is absolutely no guesswork.” (end of excerpt from PFAL)
Think about it – if all scripture is God-breathed I would assume then it’s spiritual knowledge. Yet vp said spiritual knowledge can’t be analyzed. Think about the definition of analyze - examine methodically and in detail the constitution or structure of (something, especially information), typically for purposes of explanation and interpretation.
analyze
Maybe it’s just me but I find it a little ironic that the intermittent-god-breathed-writer…religious blowhard…or whatever you wanna call vp – plagiarized the crap out of one prolific writer whose forte was detailed analysis of the Bible – E.W. Bullinger - most notable
Bullinger's Companion Bible
and
Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible
Let me set aside for a moment the huge plagiarism issues throughout his body of work. vp did more – much more than just steal other folks’ work and ideas and pass them off as his own. He had a weird knack for amalgamating several disparate strains of thought from Christianity, fundamentalism, Gnosticism, materialism/prosperity theology, magic, and who knows what else.
but he could really whip up some great contradictory claptrap though....And yet, recalling my 12 years of involvement with TWI, the general attitude of myself and any other way-believers i knew - about vp’s body of work was that it was all considered God-breathed…and you could turn off your critical thinking too…after all spiritual knowledge can’t be analyzed. yeah right
Edited by T-Boneclarity and typos
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Mike
You folks are forgetting some details about analysis.
I have no references for this now (I can get them), but from what I've studied and remember, Dr taught us that it’s ONLY in receiving direct revelation that we need to avoid analyzing.
However, additional teaching of his on receiving revelation is the “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit” list he goes through in the AC.
Key #4 (from memory) says “Study the Word much. What you can k now by your 5 senses God expects you to know.”
When it comes to good old 5-senses study analysis is both good and encouraged in Dr’s writings.
A few months ago I did a computer word study in all of Dr’s writings and I could plainly see that the words “analyze” and “analysis” are treated as good words, and expected of all responsible students. Fullness and accuracy in analysis are easily seen as good guys in the written words of VPW.
The reason I did that word study is because I see many grads (just like you guys here) who picked up the idea that Dr taught it’s bad to analyze. This error is directly from the TVT (Twi Verbal Traditions), and not from the written books and magazine articles we were told to master. It’s a sloppy interpretation of the AC material.
SUMMARY:
Receiving revelation - avoid analysis
All other thinking - Use analysis a lot
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Mike
I may just need to read it all again, but it looks like no one was able include the word "necessarily" in their analysis of PFAL page 83.
It's in there for a reason.
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Mike
Does anyone know if there is a connection between the word "analyze" and "orthotomounta" (sp?) or "right cutting" ?
Analyze involves cutting things up into easy to digest pieces, then putting it all together. Right cutting seems to be an idea along similar lines.
I thought maybe the two words are from different languages, but mean much the same. It makes sense that in study and right dividing, analysis is to be found at the heart of things.
Just wondering.
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T-Bone
Well, it’s been a few years since I’ve given much thought to the Advance Class material – but I think I remember vp saying something along the lines of the Bible being written revelation. Which makes me ask – what’s the diff between written and direct revelation?
And your reference to “rightly dividing” of II Timothy 2:15 being the equivalent of analyzing I think there’s a slight difference. The NASB translates the phrase as “accurately handling the word of truth” – keeping in mind Paul’s trade of leatherwork and tent making and that he’s writing to other teachers (see verse 2 - faithful men who will be able to teach others also) – in my opinion, what Paul had in mind was the required precision of a skilled tradesman working in his field of expertise. Yes, I would think a skilled tradesman has good analytical skills to properly execute the tasks at hand - which the context of II Timothy 2 seems to be over “cutting it straight” (or accurately handling) as a teacher - as one offering an interpretation of the scriptures to others.
I understand what you’re saying about vp’s ways of encouraging people to think – yeah but he tended to slip in some doubletalk here and there so as to gum up the works and actually thwarts any critical thinking. For example check out what he says in the chapter Are You Limiting God? pages 23 & 24 of The Bible Tells Me So:
“…We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true…The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.” (end of excerpt)
Maybe I’m reading too much into it – but it seems to me vp is pitting the Word of God - spiritual knowledge - against reason…against the five senses. I don’t think vp is “cutting it straight” on any of that stuff! It makes no sense – oh, that’s right - I forgot, my reason does not have first place – too bad, I lose.
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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waysider
References please.
BTW...He wasn't a Dr.
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TLC
The unanswered questions I had for you start on page 4, then jump to page 6. (I'm not sure how to link to a specific post.)
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skyrider
Okay, Mike.........against my better judgment to indulge your wierwille-sycophancy......
The wierwille-shtick was devoid of "receiving revelation" ........the man was a fraud and huckster. In all my cult-years around wierwille, I NEVER ONCE saw the guy receive OR operate revelation......ie word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits. NOT ONE TIME.
I could give plenty more examples, Mike.........but I don't care to.
After 24 years around Vic, Howard, Don, Dotsie, Emogene, Wanda, and the cult-clan........I saw everything I needed to see. But go ahead and live off the delusions of this scam if you like..........where "the rubber meets the road" it just wasn't there. I don't care how many times you add "references" or "written research" from wierwille.......the scriptures POINTEDLY SAY that we shall know them by their fruit.
And one more thing.......I spent time delving into all that backstory of wierwille's India trip and claims........a nothing burger. Wierwille plagiarized whole swaths of that "foreign missions pamphlet" from others before him. But I seriously doubt that any of this will have any sway over your wierwille-discipleship.
Ash Heap of TWI-story
Narcissistic Self-Promotion
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T-Bone
Following thru on my previous post - vp Rightly dividing the Bible? Yeah that's a joke ! As far as vp being capable of rightly dividing it or cutting it straight or accurately handling the interpretation of the Bible - not by a long shot if you consider any of his mangled redefinitions of biblical Greek words (you know he lied about taking Moody Bible College correspondent courses of biblical Greek ) as well as his crimes against logic or any academic discipline. ...
So - There's enough red flags in vp's stuff to warn any reader that does not have the i-love-"doctor"-wierwille-blinders on - - so that they can see thru his charade.
I think the best vp could do at "cutting it straight" was to cut and paste - in other words- his plagiaristic tendencies to cut it straight out of other folks' work - run it thru the vp-annihilate-source-and-context-and-original- author's thought process -machine (aka vp's thing called a brain) and then cobbling it altogether in one hybrid hodge podge of nonsense - which he often referred to by his favorite pet name "the word".
Clarity
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TLC
It's rather hard for me to think that anyone would place anything (or any portion of anything) written in these modern times (by anyone) on par with scripture. I suppose that may have something to do with my own deep rooted beliefs about scripture before ever hearing or seeing anything about vpw. What the above quote does do, however, is carve out a nifty place for vpw alongside of Kant, Plato, Aristotle, Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, and/or Roberts.
Evidently we never knew each other while with TWI.
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Bolshevik
You are looking for patterns in VPWs writings? What patterns are you choosing to see and which are you ignoring?
And what on earth are the Five Senses? There are clearly more senses. You've limited human experience to frame some natural experiences as spiritual. That is grossly dishonest on your part.
"What you can know by the five senses God expects you to know" --- That is impossible. All our minds are continually taking in more information from a multitude of sources than can be analyzed. That's why you used a computer to do your study. Your mind chose to filter out information at some point in time and had to go back over it.
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T-Bone
I would have to agree with you on that, sir! I'm an old Roman Catholic boy (probably knew more Latin than Bible stuff) and never developed any critical thinking skills until after I left TWI.
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waysider
Over under sideways down,
Backwards forwards square and round.
Over under sideways down,
Backwards forwards square and round.
When will it end, when will it end?
When will it end, when will it end?
.......The Yardbirds
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OldSkool
This is right on the money. Whats worse the way international considers wierwilles books (at least the ones they approve of and still sell) proven ministry research, and thus above question and error free. They place his books on par with the Bible. Right from the first fellowship a person's indoctrination begins. By the time i graduated into the way corps i had a good plate if scrsmbled way brain with cheese. His stolen material may have some really good content. However, his stolen material is most iften twisted to conform to all things vpw.
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TLC
With so much dissecting and parsing of words resulting from this sort of interpretation of 2Timothy 2:15, you'd think that someone in twi would have done a little better job of looking at that verse in light of Paul's ministry (i.d., gospel), and consider what all that verse might really have meant to communicate. Perhaps it would help to refer back to Phil. 1:9-10 (but do check out the meaning of the word "excellent" there... it's not what you might think.)
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