Hi Grace Valerie Claire. If we used commas in names, you’d be a Trinity! :)
I don’t think we’ve met, yet. But I do hear you, about negative experiences.
After looking into it for a while, I decided to believe that the difficulties that happened in TWI were due NOT to the books, but to the verbal tradition and other practices that grew up that were contrary to the books contents. It was due to not knowing the books well enough that the problems ended up prevailing. There were times and places in the ministry where things went well, and I seek those factors.
***
OldSkool and JayDee for years I went round and round on the two topics you brought up, plagiarism and PhD validity. Do you remember my responses? How about Research Geek’s response to the PhD issue? I can dig it up, but it would take time. I like calling him Dr Wiewille because he helped me out a lot and I thought he deserved that kind of respect. There are about two other people in my life whom I call “Doctor” and they don’t even have degrees from a mill. It’s a fun respect thing for me to call people "Doctor" or "Doc" and Dr is the written form.
And then the plagiarism issue was deftly handled by dMiller here. I think that’s his name. Do you remember how that put the fizzle on the plagiarism issue? We also deeply discussed the theology, philosophy, and neuroscience of original thought which, to me, was MUCH more interesting than stuffy academic market copyrighteous baloney. Do you remember any of that?
Not only are those tired old subjects to me, but they have nothing to do with my answer to this thread’s original question. My point was that there was no evil that John S. could point out in the books that I would be infusing into my life.
***
TLC, if you asked about how scientifically controlled my experiment with life these past ten years has been, I’d have to admit it was completely non-rigorous. As I compare it to the years prior there’s no comparison.
A few cool things happened. I became a Grateful Dead fan, for one, after systematically hating them and ignoring them for 45 years. I like listening to their old tapes, and I hang out with GD cover bands and a community of musicians.
Another thing was my mirror reversal “theory” has become a book. I got it started here on GreaseSpot in a thread titled “How does a mirror reverse left and right but not up and down?” Here I got my first practice answering that riddle in writing. I had played with it verbally for almost 40 years, but getting it into written form was a lot of fun.
Another lifelong project of mine came to maturity about 5 years ago. I had a 40 year hobby tinkering with toys that could dance. I started with a slinkie and later found other mechanisms that could do some quite impressive dancing. From by background as a Physics major and from the math involved in dance motion, I tinkered away, year after year, until all of a sudden I realized that I could do with my body what I was getting toys to do. At that same time I “discovered” that the Grateful Dead always fine tuned their music to a thousand dancers right in front of them. Add in 37 years of window cleaning where I disciplined my body for speed, accuracy, and endurance on a DAILY basis. End result is I kind of cracked the code on dance. This I know to be true because twenty-something women tell me as they come to me to dance. That makes it extra fun. Their boyfriends are always 20 feet away, but I have lots of fun and I don’t have to buy them drinks.
The third thing that happened was the biggest surprise. All my life I wondered how we could have free will in the face of micro determinism. This riddle I had no clue how to solve, but I tried many approaches, and for over 40 years.
Then the unexpected happened 3 years ago. After perfecting the solution to the mirror riddle for so may years, it finally evolved to a point where I could see it might help me with the free will riddle. What I saw was a strange similarity between the mirror riddle and the free will riddle. My hunch was that if the problems had a similar form, maybe the solutions would have similar form also. Worked on that hunch for a few months and it suddenly opened up. I’ve written a couple of papers on it and am circulating them among some neuroscientists and Philosophy professors I know and having lots of fun discussions.
As far as Dr’s books go, I’m enjoying the peacefulness of reading them and incorporating them into my life without any debate. When I was here posting I was urging grads to take a second look at the books… just the books. I am practicing what I was preaching and enjoying it.
Hi Mike! It's good to "meet" you! BTW, I use my real name. I love my name; I think it's pretty. I personally would not read his books again; I thought they were poorly-written, but if you enjoy them, good for you! Even when I was in TWI, I read what I wanted to. I love to read; I don't watch TV. I read instead. I have come to a time in my life when I can read as often as I like-praise God!
“2. Do you still hold to the assertion that, when Christ returns, He''ll be brandishing a PFAL book in his right hand? 3. Are you still chasing after that elusive *golden pony*?”
Number 3 is easy. I have no idea. I think that was a mockery motif that was used by some posters here that I paid little attention to. It was an attempt to belittle (when debate failed) that had no effect on me. Maybe you can find it in the archives and I’ll remember more.
Number 2 is difficult to explain, because it stretched out for such a long time, and appeared in many threads. But I’ll try.
I’d love to go to the archives and look it up, but it often would pop up in the middle of a thread, having nothing to do with the topic, so it’s in MANY threads. Plus, many of my threads (and others’) were deleted at two different times due to them taking up too much bandwidth. I had over 5,000 total posts when I left, but only 3600 sow up in the current software count. I have all my threads in home storage, but they are a nightmare to search through, due to several different formats.
It started out as an edgy description I gave of what I was seeing as a new understanding of how the Return of Christ works.
However, it degenerated over a few years time into a stupid, silly “gotcha” game that was more grammar oriented than spirit oriented. I tried repeatedly to end that, but failed. All people wanted to do was nail me, and no one was even trying to understand my mini thesis at all. I tried to get some to wake up with all kinds of grammatical contortions, but no luck. I eventually gave up and simply played “dodgeball” with it until I left active posting.
So, that’s the brief synopsis. Now for the rumors behind the news!
How does Christ’s Return work? I had a specific question about this a long time ago, that seems to have been answered gradually over the years. The question was “How will we know it’s the genuine Return and not a counterfeit?”
Any old acid head can testify that some pretty convincing and entertaining counterfeits are available, just from some simple chemistry. What if the adversary wanted to bamboozle me with a counterfeit return? How could I know to reject it? AND, just as perplexing to me was the GENUINE Return. How, and when into it, will we know for sure it’s the real thing?
Stupid question?
Not so stupid, when you think it through a little. My first inclination was to think that there’d be one heaven of a light show announcing his Return. He’d be all glowing and beautiful to look at… But I eventually remembered that there’s an angel of light who’s known for his “beauty” and he’s into trickery and light shows.
So, as I learned more of the Word, it became ALTITUDE that I thought would be the real convincing factor. Acid hallucinations are easy to spot when sight and sound and feelings are not synchronized and consistent. So, I thought seeing HIM at a high altitude would be the proof that this was the REAL thing.
Then a few more seasons pass, and I notice that the devil abducted Jesus to a high altitude and showed him some pretty fancy stuff. OUCH! Altitude won’t be enough. So I thought on.
The dead in Christ! They’ll be with him. THEY can vouch for him? No! They get counterfeited in séances all the time!
What do you folks think? What would tip you off that the genuine Return of Christ is really happening? How will you know it’s really Jesus Christ you are looking at face to face?
I’m talking about right at the beginning of the whole thing, how would you FIRST know it was really him. Later on we can tell by the work that gets done.
Think about if for a few hours or days. Think through the details.
Would you accept his Driver’s License as proof of identity? Check his signature? Fingerprints? DNA?
I’m out of time for this afternoon. But I’ll return…. ah… hem …I mean come back and finish my story. Tell Tom Strange about it.
Does anyone yet see how all this leads to Jesus teaching us out of the Orange Book? I love a good mystery! :)
...Any written work can offer a springboard to whole host of other things. But how useful or helpful it is seems to depend on a summation such things as: how much truth it contains, how quickly and easily the effectiveness (and/or error in it) is recognized or perceived, and to what degree any of it is accepted, believed, or acted upon. After all, to paraphrase an old saying, truth on the heel of the devil is still truth. Still, the real difficulty isn't in recognizing truth (or harder yet, applicable truth.)
A more common (and often more damaging) failure resides in elevating one truth at the expense of some other truth.
“After all, to paraphrase an old saying, truth on the heel of the devil is still truth” how is that applicable here? or to put it another way, what are you referring to?
“A more common (and often more damaging) failure resides in elevating one truth at the expense of some other truth.” Care to elaborate on that – maybe an example or two.
...Instead of giving my answer, I’ll give the answer John S from CES gave me some 13 years ago by telephone.Actually he gave this same answer TWICE, in two phone conversations, separated by at least one year.
Setting the context, John S had done the paper on adultery that had shaken up the ministry in 1985 or 86. If ANYONE had the ability to sense if ANY danger was lurking within Dr’s books, then SURELY he would be on the short list.
I had called to discuss with him with my commitment to not only read Dr’s books, but to master them, and them exclusively. He told me in both conversations that he strongly disagreed with me, and he gave me lots of reasons why I should not focus so strongly on Dr’s books. They were very thorough and very civil conversations.
TWICE in those conversations he had to admit and said so out loud, that if I read only Dr’s books, and disciplined my life to what is within them, I would do well.
Mike:
"Setting the context, John S had done the paper on adultery that had shaken up the ministry in 1985 or 86. If ANYONE had the ability to sense if ANY danger was lurking within Dr’s books, then SURELY he would be on the short list.
I had called to discuss with him with my commitment to not only read Dr’s books, but to master them, and them exclusively. He told me in both conversations that he strongly disagreed with me, and he gave me lots of reasons why I should not focus so strongly on Dr’s books."
== == == ==
T-Bone:
The response of John S that you describe here seems to be consistent with what little I’ve read on one of his websites – the one with the REV Bible - I think – anyway, on there John notes a number of things that go counter to what vpw taught. I can understand why he would give you lots of reasons to not have such a strong focus on vpw’s books.
== == == ==
Mike:
"TWICE in those conversations he had to admit and said so out loud, that if I read only Dr’s books, and disciplined my life to what is within them, I would do well."
== == == ==
T-Bone:
Now that is truly bewildering and seems contradictory - after all the reasons John gave you to stop fixating on vpw’s books. And he really said if you read only vpw's books and discipline your life to what's within them, you'd do well? he really said that - out loud? Or you thought you heard that? Was there snow on the gas pumps across the street? But seriously, if he had to admit out loud you would do well – I’m thinking he said that just to put an end the conversation - congrats, you wore him down – I know how persistent you can be.
You wrote: "1.After investing so many years into studying Wierwille’s books, are you still of the opinion they are the product of divine revelation?"
Yes. I thought I had already answered that in the affirmative. I said I was practicing what I was preaching and enjoying it.
Please allow me to ask roughly a similar question of you. Do you think there are any modern God-breathed documents given in modern English?
If not, wouldn't they be a great thing to have? Wouldn't a loving God want to provide us with such? How stingy would God have to be to insist we utilize scripture fragments, written in a dead language, from a time when the devil had some 3 or 4 hundred years of time to focus on scrambling?
***
I haven’t read any of the recent responses, so I will do that and eventually resume my story.
You wrote: "But seriously, if he had to admit out loud you would do well – I’m thinking he said that just to put an end the conversation - congrats, you wore him down – I know how persistent you can be..."
There is some truth to this as you say. The point I was making, when you read it close, is that he could not find anything EVIL in them that would turn my mind to mush or make me evil. He was arguing that I would do BETTER not limiting myself to Dr's books, but that I would do well (not best) with them.
Nah... seriously ?
This is the guy that said that ?
Surely he must have been just trying to push somebody's button...
When Mike wrote a post whose sole content was the phrase "When Christ returns, he'll be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it." ,
I immediately concluded he was joking. However, someone asked him outright if he was actually serious when he made that claim. Mike replied he was "Very serious. I've seen him that way many times myself."
Mike has decided to stake his entire life on the assertion that the PFAL books were of divine origin and superior to any and all modern English Bibles, let alone the texts remaining from Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew. He's said the closest we have to the originals is "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants." He also is rather creative in how he interprets both current and past posts. (He's been thoroughly refuted, gone away for 6 months, then returned and said that the previous time, nobody'd been able to hold a candle to him. So, if you're looking for a LOGICAL answer, don't be shocked if you don't get one. To date, Mike's dangled questions and insinuations, and gone out of his way far afield to ever avoid answering questions simply, directly, and unambiguously. He's also shown some elementary errors in understanding the Bible the few times he's mentioned something in it.
He did this once, I refuted him and pointed out specifics, and announced then and there that he'd probably be back in 6 months, claiming he was correct and unrefuted. 6 months to the day, guess what happened? ;)
BTW, Mike, I'm doing well by objective standards. I'm seeing a much brighter future for my day-to-day life, in fact.
Here they are again, in case they slipped by anyone's attention:
How does Christ’s Return work? I had a specific question about this a long time ago, that seems to have been answered gradually over the years. The question was “How will we know it’s the genuine Return and not a counterfeit?”
Any old acid head can testify that some pretty convincing and entertaining counterfeits are available, just from some simple chemistry. What if the adversary wanted to bamboozle me with a counterfeit return? How could I know to reject it? AND, just as perplexing to me was the GENUINE Return. How, and when into it, will we know for sure it’s the real thing?
Stupid question?
Not so stupid, when you think it through a little. My first inclination was to think that there’d be one heaven of a light show announcing his Return. He’d be all glowing and beautiful to look at… But I eventually remembered that there’s an angel of light who’s known for his “beauty” and he’s into trickery and light shows.
So, as I learned more of the Word, it became ALTITUDE that I thought would be the real convincing factor. Acid hallucinations are easy to spot when sight and sound and feelings are not synchronized and consistent. So, I thought seeing HIM at a high altitude would be the proof that this was the REAL thing.
Then a few more seasons pass, and I notice that the devil abducted Jesus to a high altitude and showed him some pretty fancy stuff. OUCH! Altitude won’t be enough. So I thought on.
The dead in Christ! They’ll be with him. THEY can vouch for him? No! They get counterfeited in séances all the time!
What do you folks think? What would tip you off that the genuine Return of Christ is really happening? How will you know it’s really Jesus Christ you are looking at face to face?
I’m talking about right at the beginning of the whole thing, how would you FIRST know it was really him. Later on we can tell by the work that gets done.
Think about if for a few hours or days. Think through the details.
Would you accept his Driver’s License as proof of identity? Check his signature? Fingerprints? DNA?
I’m out of time for this afternoon. But I’ll return…. ah… hem …I mean come back and finish my story. Tell Tom Strange about it.
Does anyone yet see how all this leads to Jesus teaching us out of the Orange Book? I love a good mystery! :)
You came on to posting here at GreaseSpot long after this all happened. I’m guessing you didn’t read it all prior to posting and get all caught up in it like a few others did. I can understand you not being interested.
But someone else was interested enough to remember it, and bring it up. It intrigued a lot of people, I know. It bothered a lot of people, me included, that it never got straightened out.
Instead of us playing gotcha games and “expose the villain (me)” games, I’d much rather have thoughtful conversations, ESPECIALLY with some people like you, Ralph.
I waited years for the heat here to die down. It seems I should be able to come back and make some peace with family here. I’m not trying to disrupt anything or recruit anybody. I just thought there were some loose ends for others here, and it looks like I was right about this Return issue being one of them.
There’s a special key they put on the QWERTY keyboard for when disinterest in this or other topics hits. It’s called “PgDn.” Maybe sometime later, down the pages, you And I can talk philosophy or something neurological. How did you like mymirror riddle?
Please don't swamp me. Be patient. I don't have the time or the energy I had 10 years ago to face down you and 70 others like you simultaneously trying to nail me, like I did then. I think once someone counted 70, but I may have the number wrong.
Like I said to Ralph, above, I'm trying walk into this forum to be friendly and non-disruptive. I am NOT wanting to walk into a courtroom with lawyers having me arrested and interrogated. Instead of playing the role of a ratty lawyer, try to be as friendly as I am being. It's a chance for you to walk in love.
I don't have the time or the energy I had 10 years ago ....
Yeah, none of us do...which is why you should get to the point.
Wierwille was a plagiarist, not just any plagiarist, a hardcore plagiarist. Quite a bit of what he plagiarized has been shown to be scholastically deficient. (That means wrong.) You know it. I know it. Lots of people know it.
So, why do you continue to exalt and promote the works of a plagiarist?
A brief synopsis will suffice, as I understand the time and energy factors first hand.
I spent many hours here dealing with many aspects of the plagiarism issue. Do you remember any of it?
Can you search the archives here with any skill ? I can’t. At first, for hundreds of plagiarism posts here I relied on what I had thought was something Dr said about it in person. But low and behold, one day dMiller posted (with great chagrin) an odd item that he had found “The Way – Living in Love.”
He had found the comment I had relied on, thinking it was just verbal.
There in print, circa 1972, Dr admitted that he hardly had anything original to offer, but that he was simply guided by God to find it in the works of other people.
HE ADMITTED IT IN WRITING!
For two years, again to dMiller’s chagrin, I quoted and re-quoted his post of Dr admitting that he had MOSTLY only “put it all together.”
I CONSTANTLY and RELENTLESSLY posted for 5 years many other points on copyrights and plagiarism no one liked, and that nobody had dealt with before, but were huge mitigating factors in this great plagiarism bug in your craw.
Can you find those posts in the archives on your own? Please?
At least try. Find that Elena Whiteside quote at least.
When you find that quote, posted here many times, where Dr admitted major non-originality, then maybe I’ll find the time to give you (again) the many more details that tell me the plagiarism issue is fake news! ... I blame it all on the Russians!
Here they are again, in case they slipped by anyone's attention:
How does Christ’s Return work? I had a specific question about this a long time ago, that seems to have been answered gradually over the years. The question was “How will we know it’s the genuine Return and not a counterfeit?”
Any old acid head can testify that some pretty convincing and entertaining counterfeits are available, just from some simple chemistry. What if the adversary wanted to bamboozle me with a counterfeit return? How could I know to reject it? AND, just as perplexing to me was the GENUINE Return. How, and when into it, will we know for sure it’s the real thing?
Stupid question?
Not so stupid, when you think it through a little. My first inclination was to think that there’d be one heaven of a light show announcing his Return. He’d be all glowing and beautiful to look at… But I eventually remembered that there’s an angel of light who’s known for his “beauty” and he’s into trickery and light shows.
So, as I learned more of the Word, it became ALTITUDE that I thought would be the real convincing factor. Acid hallucinations are easy to spot when sight and sound and feelings are not synchronized and consistent. So, I thought seeing HIM at a high altitude would be the proof that this was the REAL thing.
Then a few more seasons pass, and I notice that the devil abducted Jesus to a high altitude and showed him some pretty fancy stuff. OUCH! Altitude won’t be enough. So I thought on.
The dead in Christ! They’ll be with him. THEY can vouch for him? No! They get counterfeited in séances all the time!
What do you folks think? What would tip you off that the genuine Return of Christ is really happening? How will you know it’s really Jesus Christ you are looking at face to face?
I’m talking about right at the beginning of the whole thing, how would you FIRST know it was really him. Later on we can tell by the work that gets done.
Think about if for a few hours or days. Think through the details.
Would you accept his Driver’s License as proof of identity? Check his signature? Fingerprints? DNA?
I’m out of time for this afternoon. But I’ll return…. ah… hem …I mean come back and finish my story. Tell Tom Strange about it.
Does anyone yet see how all this leads to Jesus teaching us out of the Orange Book? I love a good mystery! :)
Did you forget where the doctrinal forum is? That's probably where you could get the attention of people who might be interested in engaging regarding those questions.
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waysider
Yes, he seriously said that and meant it. But, hey, he's back again, so maybe he can clarify the issue.
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Bolshevik
So, if Wierwillism is an objective reality, that should explain quantum tunneling?
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waysider
It's all in how you look at it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Hi Mike! It's good to "meet" you! BTW, I use my real name. I love my name; I think it's pretty. I personally would not read his books again; I thought they were poorly-written, but if you enjoy them, good for you! Even when I was in TWI, I read what I wanted to. I love to read; I don't watch TV. I read instead. I have come to a time in my life when I can read as often as I like-praise God!
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Mike
waysider,
You asked a few questions I can answer.
“2. Do you still hold to the assertion that, when Christ returns, He''ll be brandishing a PFAL book in his right hand? 3. Are you still chasing after that elusive *golden pony*?”
Number 3 is easy. I have no idea. I think that was a mockery motif that was used by some posters here that I paid little attention to. It was an attempt to belittle (when debate failed) that had no effect on me. Maybe you can find it in the archives and I’ll remember more.
Number 2 is difficult to explain, because it stretched out for such a long time, and appeared in many threads. But I’ll try.
I’d love to go to the archives and look it up, but it often would pop up in the middle of a thread, having nothing to do with the topic, so it’s in MANY threads. Plus, many of my threads (and others’) were deleted at two different times due to them taking up too much bandwidth. I had over 5,000 total posts when I left, but only 3600 sow up in the current software count. I have all my threads in home storage, but they are a nightmare to search through, due to several different formats.
It started out as an edgy description I gave of what I was seeing as a new understanding of how the Return of Christ works.
However, it degenerated over a few years time into a stupid, silly “gotcha” game that was more grammar oriented than spirit oriented. I tried repeatedly to end that, but failed. All people wanted to do was nail me, and no one was even trying to understand my mini thesis at all. I tried to get some to wake up with all kinds of grammatical contortions, but no luck. I eventually gave up and simply played “dodgeball” with it until I left active posting.
So, that’s the brief synopsis. Now for the rumors behind the news!
How does Christ’s Return work? I had a specific question about this a long time ago, that seems to have been answered gradually over the years. The question was “How will we know it’s the genuine Return and not a counterfeit?”
Any old acid head can testify that some pretty convincing and entertaining counterfeits are available, just from some simple chemistry. What if the adversary wanted to bamboozle me with a counterfeit return? How could I know to reject it? AND, just as perplexing to me was the GENUINE Return. How, and when into it, will we know for sure it’s the real thing?
Stupid question?
Not so stupid, when you think it through a little. My first inclination was to think that there’d be one heaven of a light show announcing his Return. He’d be all glowing and beautiful to look at… But I eventually remembered that there’s an angel of light who’s known for his “beauty” and he’s into trickery and light shows.
So, as I learned more of the Word, it became ALTITUDE that I thought would be the real convincing factor. Acid hallucinations are easy to spot when sight and sound and feelings are not synchronized and consistent. So, I thought seeing HIM at a high altitude would be the proof that this was the REAL thing.
Then a few more seasons pass, and I notice that the devil abducted Jesus to a high altitude and showed him some pretty fancy stuff. OUCH! Altitude won’t be enough. So I thought on.
The dead in Christ! They’ll be with him. THEY can vouch for him? No! They get counterfeited in séances all the time!
What do you folks think? What would tip you off that the genuine Return of Christ is really happening? How will you know it’s really Jesus Christ you are looking at face to face?
I’m talking about right at the beginning of the whole thing, how would you FIRST know it was really him. Later on we can tell by the work that gets done.
Think about if for a few hours or days. Think through the details.
Would you accept his Driver’s License as proof of identity? Check his signature? Fingerprints? DNA?
I’m out of time for this afternoon. But I’ll return…. ah… hem …I mean come back and finish my story. Tell Tom Strange about it.
Does anyone yet see how all this leads to Jesus teaching us out of the Orange Book? I love a good mystery! :)
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T-Bone
“After all, to paraphrase an old saying, truth on the heel of the devil is still truth” how is that applicable here? or to put it another way, what are you referring to?
“A more common (and often more damaging) failure resides in elevating one truth at the expense of some other truth.” Care to elaborate on that – maybe an example or two.
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T-Bone
Mike:
"Setting the context, John S had done the paper on adultery that had shaken up the ministry in 1985 or 86. If ANYONE had the ability to sense if ANY danger was lurking within Dr’s books, then SURELY he would be on the short list.
I had called to discuss with him with my commitment to not only read Dr’s books, but to master them, and them exclusively. He told me in both conversations that he strongly disagreed with me, and he gave me lots of reasons why I should not focus so strongly on Dr’s books."
== == == ==
T-Bone:
The response of John S that you describe here seems to be consistent with what little I’ve read on one of his websites – the one with the REV Bible - I think – anyway, on there John notes a number of things that go counter to what vpw taught. I can understand why he would give you lots of reasons to not have such a strong focus on vpw’s books.
== == == ==
Mike:
"TWICE in those conversations he had to admit and said so out loud, that if I read only Dr’s books, and disciplined my life to what is within them, I would do well."
== == == ==
T-Bone:
Now that is truly bewildering and seems contradictory - after all the reasons John gave you to stop fixating on vpw’s books. And he really said if you read only vpw's books and discipline your life to what's within them, you'd do well? he really said that - out loud? Or you thought you heard that? Was there snow on the gas pumps across the street?
But seriously, if he had to admit out loud you would do well – I’m thinking he said that just to put an end the conversation - congrats, you wore him down – I know how persistent you can be. 
Edited by T-Boneclarity and typos
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waysider
What happened to question 1.?
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Mike
waysider,
You wrote: "1.After investing so many years into studying Wierwille’s books, are you still of the opinion they are the product of divine revelation?"
Yes. I thought I had already answered that in the affirmative. I said I was practicing what I was preaching and enjoying it.
Please allow me to ask roughly a similar question of you. Do you think there are any modern God-breathed documents given in modern English?
If not, wouldn't they be a great thing to have? Wouldn't a loving God want to provide us with such? How stingy would God have to be to insist we utilize scripture fragments, written in a dead language, from a time when the devil had some 3 or 4 hundred years of time to focus on scrambling?
***
I haven’t read any of the recent responses, so I will do that and eventually resume my story.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Review the responses.......forget resuming your story! LOL Mike!
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Mike
T=Boned,
You wrote: "But seriously, if he had to admit out loud you would do well – I’m thinking he said that just to put an end the conversation - congrats, you wore him down – I know how persistent you can be..."
There is some truth to this as you say. The point I was making, when you read it close, is that he could not find anything EVIL in them that would turn my mind to mush or make me evil. He was arguing that I would do BETTER not limiting myself to Dr's books, but that I would do well (not best) with them.
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waysider
Let the records show:
It is Mike's contention that Wierwille's books are the result of divine revelation.
"Do you think there are any modern God-breathed documents given in modern English? "
What I think about that particular concept has no bearing on the topic at hand.
I suggest you start a thread that more specifically addresses that question.
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T-Bone
How do you reconcile vpw’s unabashed plagiarism with your idea that his books are a product of divine revelation?
divine revelation
plagiarism
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WordWolf
When Mike wrote a post whose sole content was the phrase "When Christ returns, he'll be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it." ,
I immediately concluded he was joking. However, someone asked him outright if he was actually serious when he made that claim. Mike replied he was "Very serious. I've seen him that way many times myself."
Mike has decided to stake his entire life on the assertion that the PFAL books were of divine origin and superior to any and all modern English Bibles, let alone the texts remaining from Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew. He's said the closest we have to the originals is "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants." He also is rather creative in how he interprets both current and past posts. (He's been thoroughly refuted, gone away for 6 months, then returned and said that the previous time, nobody'd been able to hold a candle to him. So, if you're looking for a LOGICAL answer, don't be shocked if you don't get one. To date, Mike's dangled questions and insinuations, and gone out of his way far afield to ever avoid answering questions simply, directly, and unambiguously. He's also shown some elementary errors in understanding the Bible the few times he's mentioned something in it.
He did this once, I refuted him and pointed out specifics, and announced then and there that he'd probably be back in 6 months, claiming he was correct and unrefuted. 6 months to the day, guess what happened? ;)
BTW, Mike, I'm doing well by objective standards. I'm seeing a much brighter future for my day-to-day life, in fact.
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Mike
Should I interpret the silence on the questions I asked about the return of Christ to mean everyone is stymied by them? ...so far?
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Mike
Here they are again, in case they slipped by anyone's attention:
How does Christ’s Return work? I had a specific question about this a long time ago, that seems to have been answered gradually over the years. The question was “How will we know it’s the genuine Return and not a counterfeit?”
Any old acid head can testify that some pretty convincing and entertaining counterfeits are available, just from some simple chemistry. What if the adversary wanted to bamboozle me with a counterfeit return? How could I know to reject it? AND, just as perplexing to me was the GENUINE Return. How, and when into it, will we know for sure it’s the real thing?
Stupid question?
Not so stupid, when you think it through a little. My first inclination was to think that there’d be one heaven of a light show announcing his Return. He’d be all glowing and beautiful to look at… But I eventually remembered that there’s an angel of light who’s known for his “beauty” and he’s into trickery and light shows.
So, as I learned more of the Word, it became ALTITUDE that I thought would be the real convincing factor. Acid hallucinations are easy to spot when sight and sound and feelings are not synchronized and consistent. So, I thought seeing HIM at a high altitude would be the proof that this was the REAL thing.
Then a few more seasons pass, and I notice that the devil abducted Jesus to a high altitude and showed him some pretty fancy stuff. OUCH! Altitude won’t be enough. So I thought on.
The dead in Christ! They’ll be with him. THEY can vouch for him? No! They get counterfeited in séances all the time!
What do you folks think? What would tip you off that the genuine Return of Christ is really happening? How will you know it’s really Jesus Christ you are looking at face to face?
I’m talking about right at the beginning of the whole thing, how would you FIRST know it was really him. Later on we can tell by the work that gets done.
Think about if for a few hours or days. Think through the details.
Would you accept his Driver’s License as proof of identity? Check his signature? Fingerprints? DNA?
I’m out of time for this afternoon. But I’ll return…. ah… hem …I mean come back and finish my story. Tell Tom Strange about it.
Does anyone yet see how all this leads to Jesus teaching us out of the Orange Book? I love a good mystery! :)
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DontWorryBeHappy
Not stymied, Mike. Simply severely disinterested. Peace.
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WordWolf
BINGO.
Besides, we're still waiting on discussion on a few matters raised in 2003, matters highly relevant to your position- and which completely refute it.
(BTW, it was 6 months ALMOST to the day, not to the exact day. (I checked.) )
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Mike
Don'tWorry,
You came on to posting here at GreaseSpot long after this all happened. I’m guessing you didn’t read it all prior to posting and get all caught up in it like a few others did. I can understand you not being interested.
But someone else was interested enough to remember it, and bring it up. It intrigued a lot of people, I know. It bothered a lot of people, me included, that it never got straightened out.
Instead of us playing gotcha games and “expose the villain (me)” games, I’d much rather have thoughtful conversations, ESPECIALLY with some people like you, Ralph.
I waited years for the heat here to die down. It seems I should be able to come back and make some peace with family here. I’m not trying to disrupt anything or recruit anybody. I just thought there were some loose ends for others here, and it looks like I was right about this Return issue being one of them.
There’s a special key they put on the QWERTY keyboard for when disinterest in this or other topics hits. It’s called “PgDn.” Maybe sometime later, down the pages, you And I can talk philosophy or something neurological. How did you like my mirror riddle?
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Mike
WordWolf,
Please don't swamp me. Be patient. I don't have the time or the energy I had 10 years ago to face down you and 70 others like you simultaneously trying to nail me, like I did then. I think once someone counted 70, but I may have the number wrong.
Like I said to Ralph, above, I'm trying walk into this forum to be friendly and non-disruptive. I am NOT wanting to walk into a courtroom with lawyers having me arrested and interrogated. Instead of playing the role of a ratty lawyer, try to be as friendly as I am being. It's a chance for you to walk in love.
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waysider
Yeah, none of us do...which is why you should get to the point.
Wierwille was a plagiarist, not just any plagiarist, a hardcore plagiarist. Quite a bit of what he plagiarized has been shown to be scholastically deficient. (That means wrong.) You know it. I know it. Lots of people know it.
So, why do you continue to exalt and promote the works of a plagiarist?
A brief synopsis will suffice, as I understand the time and energy factors first hand.
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Mike
waysider,
I spent many hours here dealing with many aspects of the plagiarism issue. Do you remember any of it?
Can you search the archives here with any skill ? I can’t. At first, for hundreds of plagiarism posts here I relied on what I had thought was something Dr said about it in person. But low and behold, one day dMiller posted (with great chagrin) an odd item that he had found “The Way – Living in Love.”
He had found the comment I had relied on, thinking it was just verbal.
There in print, circa 1972, Dr admitted that he hardly had anything original to offer, but that he was simply guided by God to find it in the works of other people.
HE ADMITTED IT IN WRITING!
For two years, again to dMiller’s chagrin, I quoted and re-quoted his post of Dr admitting that he had MOSTLY only “put it all together.”
I CONSTANTLY and RELENTLESSLY posted for 5 years many other points on copyrights and plagiarism no one liked, and that nobody had dealt with before, but were huge mitigating factors in this great plagiarism bug in your craw.
Can you find those posts in the archives on your own? Please?
At least try. Find that Elena Whiteside quote at least.
When you find that quote, posted here many times, where Dr admitted major non-originality, then maybe I’ll find the time to give you (again) the many more details that tell me the plagiarism issue is fake news! ... I blame it all on the Russians!
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Rocky
That was my thought too.
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Rocky
Did you forget where the doctrinal forum is? That's probably where you could get the attention of people who might be interested in engaging regarding those questions.
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