The cult was formidable in not allowing both to co-exist in continuity or harmony.
All the dots connect back to wierwille. The cult was formidable in NOT allowing both......1) personal life and 2) "ministry" involvement......to co-exist in continuity or harmony. Why? Because wierwille had set down those markers in his teachings and classes......"spirit is thicker than blood".....followed by derogatory jabs of "earthly family." Cunningly and strategically, a wedge was driven to separate me from my past life......my background, my upbringing, my friends and family.
With each step further into this cult-forest, it became harder to find one's way back.
Time and again, wierwille inserted a duality......two parts......1) good and 2) bad. Of course, your "earthly family" is only good.......IF......they, too, take the class and join the cult.......so that everyone in your family can go wow, corps, and gather together once a year at the roa. Remember that 1977 film "Changed" and the Strauhal Family being so intricately re-connected because of the cult.......filmed by Bud Morgan. No. More. Duality. The. Family. Was. Now. All. Together. In. The. Cult.
Just thinking about that "Changed" film......gives me the heebbiejeebbies. The strauhal family all took pfal.......and presto, the family united. Harmony. In. The. Home.
The WOW commitment stated it upfront.....NO leaving the wow field and going home for the holidays. And, it was damn near impossible to even be "given permission" to go to your grandmother's funeral. How f**king benevolent of them. OMG. And, the corps indoctrination was laced with countless teachings on keeping your hands to the plough and don't look back. Stay salted. Heck, it was outright implied that being with your parents at Christmas could get you possessed. Be strong. Stay vigilant. Just don't let anyone talk you out of this cult......er, the word.
As hinted at by the word "dual" within it, duality refers to having two parts, often with opposite meanings, like the duality of good and evil.
If there are two sides to a coin, metaphorically speaking, there's a duality. Peace and war, love and hate, up and down, and black and white are dualities. Another term for a duality is a dichotomy. Duality has technical meanings in geometry and physics. In geometry, duality refers to how points and planes have interchangeable roles in projective geometry. In physics, duality is the property of matter and electromagnetic radiation to be understood best through wave theory or particle theory.
------
This is truth.
As always Skyrider, you make very good points.
I would venture to say that most of us here at GSC hold that there IS a dichotomy between good and evil.
What did Jesus have to say about this particular duality (the one that Skyrider noted in starting this thread)? Forsaking family...
It occurs to me that it raises very intriguing issues especially given that most of us -- even those of us who are now 60+ years old -- were lured into this particular cult when we were of an age that typically sees individuals first establishing their adult lives apart from their parents.
It is quite easy for some of us to look back on our lives lived over the last 40 years or so and recognize/acknowledge the truth of Skyrider's original post for this thread.
It's easy for me to see how Wierwille (and those who figured after he kicked the bucket that they could capitalize on what he started) exploited Jesus' words to cement a dependency that would allow them to make their livings off of the labor of their followers. Forsaking earthly family fosters emotional dependence on the cult, does it not? After all, humans are social animals. We all crave a sense of belonging.
Heck, some -- especially those who have for decades exploited mass media (televangelists) -- or even Mega-church pastors to become (filthy) rich.
I wonder, how many millions of dollars does TWI have socked away for rainy days at present? No wonder Wierwille/TWI hammered on the duality of one's personal/family life.
As hinted at by the word "dual" within it, duality refers to having two parts, often with opposite meanings, like the duality of good and evil.
If there are two sides to a coin, metaphorically speaking, there's a duality. Peace and war, love and hate, up and down, and black and white are dualities. Another term for a duality is a dichotomy. Duality has technical meanings in geometry and physics. In geometry, duality refers to how points and planes have interchangeable roles in projective geometry. In physics, duality is the property of matter and electromagnetic radiation to be understood best through wave theory or particle theory.
------
This is truth.
As always Skyrider, you make very good points.
I would venture to say that most of us here at GSC hold that there IS a dichotomy between good and evil.
Insert: My cult-assertions of wierwille are most notably from 1977-1985.
As wierwille entered the sunset years of life, his real self came of age..........drunkenness, sexual predation, cult abuse and extreme character-assassinations and smear campaigns for any and all top-tier dissenting corps/clergy. This was wierwille's authentic self.....one that he hid for decades.
Well, skyrider (or former skyrider... however you picture it), in light of the duality of life that you speak of here (and what some may refer to as yin and yang)... here's a thought on the matter.
Noting that you said you were "listening to the music" that moved you, and given where you are now in life (and/or the music that you hear now, or the direction you are moving in or towards), do you not also wonder whether or not the Lord (being the music master) was (and still is) at work within you to best prepare you for all of eternity? If so, perhaps the things that afflict us for a (relatively) short time in this life are not as magnanimous as we sometimes might like to think they are, and may help us to realize that we just aren't as smart or as good or as unselfish as we think (or thought at the time) we are...
Maybe we all too often have a much too narrow and limited perspective on what happens in life, and don't pay as much attention as we should to the music playing right now.
Well, skyrider (or former skyrider... however you picture it), in light of the duality of life that you speak of here (and what some may refer to as yin and yang)... here's a thought on the matter.
Noting that you said you were "listening to the music" that moved you, and given where you are now in life (and/or the music that you hear now, or the direction you are moving in or towards), do you not also wonder whether or not the Lord (being the music master) was (and still is) at work within you to best prepare you for all of eternity? If so, perhaps the things that afflict us for a (relatively) short time in this life are not as magnanimous as we sometimes might like to think they are, and may help us to realize that we just aren't as smart or as good or as unselfish as we think (or thought at the time) we are...
Maybe we all too often have a much too narrow and limited perspective on what happens in life, and don't pay as much attention as we should to the music playing right now.
That's a mighty fancy way of saying "Just get over it."
(Not a popular view point of people who were genuinely hurt by the organization. Philosophy may augment but does not replace reality.)
I'm all ears. You are more than welcome to elaborate on the specifics of how you were hurt and the heart and motive behind your post. That's a big part of why GSC exists. There are ways to be specific and, at the same time, redact identifying information if that's a matter that concerns you.
Why suppose I wasn't genuinely hurt (or that I was less hurt)?
You can try to spin my last post anyway you want, Waysider, but you obviously missed the heart and motive behind it.
It seems you are stating that Waysider misunderstood the message you intended to convey. Isn't it your job then, rather than accusing Waysider of "spin" to clarify for him (us) what you really meant?
We've been through the mechanics of misunderstandings regarding your posts before... one might hope you get the point sooner or later.
It seems you are stating that Waysider misunderstood the message you intended to convey. Isn't it your job then, rather than accusing Waysider of "spin" to clarify for him (us) what you really meant?
We've been through the mechanics of misunderstandings regarding your posts before... one might hope you get the point sooner or later.
Good points, Rocky.
Here we go again. Another rodeo at GSC........another troll hiding in the shadows of inference and innuendo. Notice this person NEVER gives any information or substantiating facts about their own life, but follows around a poster trying to sow discord.
Gawd..........thru the years, we've seen lots of these. Most often, there is a wierwille-apologist nostalgia underneath the cloak. Perhaps, TLC would like to share what *really* is behind his posts and why he comes here? Or.......watch folks, another side-diversion coming in 3-2-1...........
I thought of a few things on the duality of life – and thanks, Rocky for the link on duality.
My former ministry-mindset would NOT accommodate a duality – rather it focused on supposed dichotomies…conditioned for either-or thinking only. Which is an interesting tangent - it's a false dilemma (see link below) – when only two choices are presented – yet more exist- the type of thinking vp promoted tended to eliminate options and through deception and fallacies one was more or less “forced” to choose his way – because all other options according to him were insane, devilish, worldly, off the word, blah blah blah.
excuse the digression – but I thought it sort of goes with the duality thing.
We were taught that any financial hardships, failures, health issues, etc. were always our fault, we weren’t believing enough, we weren’t putting the word first, we weren’t abundant sharing enough, we weren’t speaking in tongues enough, blah blah blah. What was it with this insane obsession we could manipulate reality – if we would just knuckle down and do all those release-the-genie-in-the-bottle techniques.
We were not encouraged to embrace all of life (take the good with the bad) – but rather to ignore whatever aspects did not fit with TWI’s paradigm. If your spouse…friend…(whoever – you fill in the blank) doesn’t agree with what TWI says is “the word” – then they can take a hike. If you can’t think “the word” at your job – then get a new job.
I think embracing all of life is more realistic – to accept the duality of life - if I want to “own” all the good fortune that comes my way then I think it’s only fitting I should also “own” the unfortunate things that so often comes with the territory. I am so blessed – I am still so crazy about my wife Tonto – she is my inspiration. The odd thing about it is – if I hadn’t been in TWI and gone WOW I never would have met her….yes…it’s true…I married my WOW sister. Scandalous indeed!
However – this worked out pretty good – more than anything else or anyone else – she has been the most helpful to me with my ongoing “project” of unpacking/sorting/analyzing/dealing with the mental baggage of a lifetime (not just TWI stuff)…hopefully I’m becoming a better person or less of an a$$hole…six of one half a dozen of the other…ahhhh there’s that duality of life again…I’m a better person and less of an a$$hole.
Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born…with Down Syndrome. Again I am so thankful we had left TWI – I don’t think I would have handled parenthood properly if I was still in TWI. My concerns would probably have been more centered around myself – what is the matter with my believing? What will other believers think of me? Fortunately for my daughter, when I left TWI I had nothing BUT MY FAMILY to be concerned with. I’ve heard it said people with disabilities often draw out the best in others. I think that is true. Sometimes when we go somewhere like on a vacation or family outing I find myself wondering if I were her what would make this thing we’re doing more enjoyable. I’m really into developing empathy.
Tonto and I have been together for over 40 years. Through thick and thin….WOW, Family Corps….we’ve survived a cult dammit! Through financial hardships, ups and downs in our separate career paths, health issues, car wrecks, helped our son pursue a contractor trade, raising our daughter with a disability. There’s no way we’re giving up on each other now after all we’ve invested in our life together.
However – this worked out pretty good – more than anything else or anyone else – she has been the most helpful to me with my ongoing “project” of unpacking/sorting/analyzing/dealing with the mental baggage of a lifetime (not just TWI stuff)…hopefully I’m becoming a better person or less of an a$$hole…six of one half a dozen of the other…ahhhh there’s that duality of life again…I’m a better person and less of an a$$hole.
Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born…with Down Syndrome. Again I am so thankful we had left TWI – I don’t think I would have handled parenthood properly if I was still in TWI. My concerns would probably have been more centered around myself – what is the matter with my believing? What will other believers think of me? Fortunately for my daughter, when I left TWI I had nothing BUT MY FAMILY to be concerned with. I’ve heard it said people with disabilities often draw out the best in others. I think that is true. Sometimes when we go somewhere like on a vacation or family outing I find myself wondering if I were her what would make this thing we’re doing more enjoyable. I’m really into developing empathy.
Tonto and I have been together for over 40 years. Through thick and thin….WOW, Family Corps….we’ve survived a cult dammit! Through financial hardships, ups and downs in our separate career paths, health issues, car wrecks, helped our son pursue a contractor trade, raising our daughter with a disability. There’s no way we’re giving up on each other now after all we’ve invested in our life together.
Thanks so much for sharing your story, T-Bone. You and Tonto are an inspiration! I love it that you pointed out that you're "into developing empathy." In my view, that is a major step in getting us healed from the narcissistic mindset of our past cult life.
The ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes is not always easy. Oddly, during our Way Corps training, in our public speaking class, one principle we were taught from Carnegie was "to try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view." But often we failed at that because we thought we were right all the time when it came to what the Bible said, what God wanted for us, etc. etc. When you think you're right, it's pretty darn hard to see things from another's point of you, but even if you can, you've already made the judgment that their point of view is WRONG. So having a conversation, a civil back and forth, respectful one, is impossible. Thank goodness, when we realize that "certainty" is not possible about most things, we can relax, admit we're human, and appreciate other people ...
Forgive me if I'm "preaching." This is just what's on my mind this morning. I'm fresh from Facebook where someone (a Way Corps guy who married one of my 2nd Corps sisters) accused me of supporting Sharia Law and killing babies because I showed up at the Women's March in Orlando to show support for the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, and golden rule. Go figure ...
Cleary, nearly everyone the world over......going thru life or reflecting back......experiences "the duality of life." Whether it comes in the form of race or creed....or inter-marriages from different countries, the range is vast. But, here at GSC......we delve into the aspect of the cult, the way international ....... and in dealing with its aftermath, I see it imperative that we venture into Cult Survivors: The Duality of Life.
~~~~~~~
On 1/21/2017 at 3:43 AM, skyrider said:
One more thing........
One of my purposes for this thread is......to unravel the cult experience GOING FORWARD.
Memories and associations......the cult vs my personal involvement.
Marriage and children..............the duality of it all
Parents/Grandparents..............the rippling effects of a cult
Cults break things......all those cult-relationships became absorbed in a blob.
~~~~~~~
My Background: Growing up in Midwest USA, on a farm.......family was deeply inter-connected. My Dad's parents lived less than 30 miles away and my Mom's parents lived less than 10 miles from our home. Since my dad was the oldest of the four siblings and my mom seven years older than her brother.......my family, us siblings, were the "older" cousins in the bunch. And further, at large family reunions.....we had ongoing relations with our second cousins.
Today.....who even talks or considers "second cousins?" Even my two sons would probably look at me and say,......"what?"
I have a picture of me sitting with my maternal great-grandmother. In this picture, I have a full beard.....and she was around 84 years old. My great-grandmother lived another seven years (91) after that and a heritage of five great-great grandchildren taken to see her.
Then, my maternal grandmother.....she lived to the ripe age of 97. She, too, lived to see a fourth generation behind her.......great great grandchildren. My mother passed away at age 86......but she saw 14 of her great grandchildren.
Whereas, my wife.......never saw near "the depth of family" that I experienced in my youth. Her mother was a widow raising three kids......moving from place to place. My wife's father, a marine, died at age 54.....when my wife was 16 years old.
So..........suffice it to say, my wife and I come from very different backgrounds. Then,.......compare that to our two family's backgrounds. No one in my family ever took pfal. Whereas, my wife in her mid-twenties took pfal, etc.......and her sister and mother followed (the one brother stayed ensconced in his tennessee church). Fast forward and up the twi-ranks......my wife and her sister traveled. Later, the sister re-married a harvard graduate.......who later became twi-clergy, and is a splinter group clergyman to this very day. Three of their kids were corps grads......all three left the cult, and none of them or the other siblings associate with twi or the splinter group.
So, yeah..........there's quite a bit of "duality" swirling around the skyrider "cult-survivor" world.
The Cult Had Double-Standards: The elites had a different standard than the shlubs.
In July 1982, wierwille's two youngest children were getting married. JP had graduated from the 10th corps and his sister Sara (8th corps) were in a double-ring wedding ceremony at hq. Wierwille was in his glory. After the double-ring ceremony, there was a big celebration on the blacktop in front of the wierwille home. Live music. Kegs of beer. Open bar. Some were tipsy. Many were in various stages of "drunkenness." Hey,........leeeeeet's party! And, so it was.
In Oct 1982, wierwille was stepping down from 40 years (cough, cough) of being twi's president. Lots of fanfare.
The wierwille family and extended family were paraded across the main stage in the Big Top tent.........The Wierwille Heritage.
So, yeah.........the family issue and wierwille's derogatory insinuations in corps teachings regarding "earthly family" came front and center in my mind. How Convenient....... for him to have this "family inclusiveness" but not us. Mrs. Wierwille's sister, Dee Fisba*gh was, for years, the mayor of New Knoxville. Heck, an estranged brother or two of the wierwille clan seemed to be wandering the grounds. If your status was tied to the wierwille namesake......you got a pass. You were in.
Double standards were everywhere...........and so was "the duality of life" for all the corps and advanced class grads, most notably.
(SNIP)...Forgive me if I'm "preaching." This is just what's on my mind this morning. I'm fresh from Facebook where someone (a Way Corps guy who married one of my 2nd Corps sisters) accused me of supporting Sharia Law and killing babies because I showed up at the Women's March in Orlando to show support for the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, and golden rule. Go figure ...
Thanks for your kind words, Penworks.
Preach all you want…and I’ll chime in too. It’s scary how vp’s traits like being callous, mean-spirited, berating and accusing people - rubbed off on some folks. Oh the communicable "wonders" of the way corps training program.
Reminds me of something his star pupil LCM said one corps night (consider this a follow up note to my previous post). At the time I didn’t even write it down but it surfaced in my memory years later as a mean and ugly blast from the past …after our daughter was born. LCM was on some rant of the moment about Special Olympics and he referred to the athletes as freaks of nature…..those were his exact words.
Back to your mention of the Women’s March; they had a big one here yesterday…We would like to have gone to it but couldn’t because of work and other commitments.
I thought of a few things on the duality of life – and thanks, Rocky for the link on duality.
My former ministry-mindset would NOT accommodate a duality – rather it focused on supposed dichotomies…conditioned for either-or thinking only. Which is an interesting tangent - it's a false dilemma (see link below) – when only two choices are presented – yet more exist- the type of thinking vp promoted tended to eliminate options and through deception and fallacies one was more or less “forced” to choose his way – because all other options according to him were insane, devilish, worldly, off the word, blah blah blah.
excuse the digression – but I thought it sort of goes with the duality thing.
We were taught that any financial hardships, failures, health issues, etc. were always our fault, we weren’t believing enough, we weren’t putting the word first, we weren’t abundant sharing enough, we weren’t speaking in tongues enough, blah blah blah. What was it with this insane obsession we could manipulate reality – if we would just knuckle down and do all those release-the-genie-in-the-bottle techniques.
We were not encouraged to embrace all of life (take the good with the bad) – but rather to ignore whatever aspects did not fit with TWI’s paradigm. If your spouse…friend…(whoever – you fill in the blank) doesn’t agree with what TWI says is “the word” – then they can take a hike. If you can’t think “the word” at your job – then get a new job.
I think embracing all of life is more realistic – to accept the duality of life - if I want to “own” all the good fortune that comes my way then I think it’s only fitting I should also “own” the unfortunate things that so often comes with the territory. I am so blessed – I am still so crazy about my wife Tonto – she is my inspiration. The odd thing about it is – if I hadn’t been in TWI and gone WOW I never would have met her….yes…it’s true…I married my WOW sister. Scandalous indeed!
However – this worked out pretty good – more than anything else or anyone else – she has been the most helpful to me with my ongoing “project” of unpacking/sorting/analyzing/dealing with the mental baggage of a lifetime (not just TWI stuff)…hopefully I’m becoming a better person or less of an a$$hole…six of one half a dozen of the other…ahhhh there’s that duality of life again…I’m a better person and less of an a$$hole.
Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born…with Down Syndrome. Again I am so thankful we had left TWI – I don’t think I would have handled parenthood properly if I was still in TWI. My concerns would probably have been more centered around myself – what is the matter with my believing? What will other believers think of me? Fortunately for my daughter, when I left TWI I had nothing BUT MY FAMILY to be concerned with. I’ve heard it said people with disabilities often draw out the best in others. I think that is true. Sometimes when we go somewhere like on a vacation or family outing I find myself wondering if I were her what would make this thing we’re doing more enjoyable. I’m really into developing empathy.
Tonto and I have been together for over 40 years. Through thick and thin….WOW, Family Corps….we’ve survived a cult dammit! Through financial hardships, ups and downs in our separate career paths, health issues, car wrecks, helped our son pursue a contractor trade, raising our daughter with a disability. There’s no way we’re giving up on each other now after all we’ve invested in our life together.
Thanks so much for sharing your story, T-Bone. You and Tonto are an inspiration! I love it that you pointed out that you're "into developing empathy." In my view, that is a major step in getting us healed from the narcissistic mindset of our past cult life.
The ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes is not always easy. Oddly, during our Way Corps training, in our public speaking class, one principle we were taught from Carnegie was "to try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view." But often we failed at that because we thought we were right all the time when it came to what the Bible said, what God wanted for us, etc. etc. When you think you're right, it's pretty darn hard to see things from another's point of you, but even if you can, you've already made the judgment that their point of view is WRONG. So having a conversation, a civil back and forth, respectful one, is impossible. Thank goodness, when we realize that "certainty" is not possible about most things, we can relax, admit we're human, and appreciate other people ...
Forgive me if I'm "preaching." This is just what's on my mind this morning. I'm fresh from Facebook where someone (a Way Corps guy who married one of my 2nd Corps sisters) accused me of supporting Sharia Law and killing babies because I showed up at the Women's March in Orlando to show support for the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, and golden rule. Go figure ...
Sorry you went through that penworks. I would venture to say your accuser probably has more issues with their own past than with you. I also feel that empathy for other humans is a moral trait we didn't exercise much in the Way. Its easier to be empathetic towards someone you perceive to be like you. It takes work to get to empathy towards those you perceive as different from you. Thankfully I married someone opposite to me in many ways. Therefore I get daily work at something I'm not good at naturally. I'm actually making some progress. Who knows where I might be in another 10 or 20 years. :)
I'm all ears. You are more than welcome to elaborate on the specifics of how you were hurt and the heart and motive behind your post. That's a big part of why GSC exists. There are ways to be specific and, at the same time, redact identifying information if that's a matter that concerns you.
Yeah, all ears for any dirt and smut that you hope might spill out on vpw or twi (the BIG part of GSC), but evidently not for anything aimed towards any healing or recovery from it. I supposed that to be some part of GSC (even if only a very little part), but perhaps I am mistaken.
Isn't it your job then, rather than accusing Waysider of "spin" to clarify for him (us) what you really meant?
Nope. Not my job. If someone is bent on reading or taking what I said the wrong way, so be it. Same goes for you (and anybody else.) I didn't make a mistake when I wrote what I wrote, and it seems I may not have any better way to say it if there's no effort on your part to see or think about it from a different perspective.
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skyrider
The cult was formidable in not allowing both to co-exist in continuity or harmony.
All the dots connect back to wierwille. The cult was formidable in NOT allowing both......1) personal life and 2) "ministry" involvement......to co-exist in continuity or harmony. Why? Because wierwille had set down those markers in his teachings and classes......"spirit is thicker than blood".....followed by derogatory jabs of "earthly family." Cunningly and strategically, a wedge was driven to separate me from my past life......my background, my upbringing, my friends and family.
With each step further into this cult-forest, it became harder to find one's way back.
Time and again, wierwille inserted a duality......two parts......1) good and 2) bad. Of course, your "earthly family" is only good.......IF......they, too, take the class and join the cult.......so that everyone in your family can go wow, corps, and gather together once a year at the roa. Remember that 1977 film "Changed" and the Strauhal Family being so intricately re-connected because of the cult.......filmed by Bud Morgan. No. More. Duality. The. Family. Was. Now. All. Together. In. The. Cult.
Just thinking about that "Changed" film......gives me the heebbiejeebbies. The strauhal family all took pfal.......and presto, the family united. Harmony. In. The. Home.
The WOW commitment stated it upfront.....NO leaving the wow field and going home for the holidays. And, it was damn near impossible to even be "given permission" to go to your grandmother's funeral. How f**king benevolent of them. OMG. And, the corps indoctrination was laced with countless teachings on keeping your hands to the plough and don't look back. Stay salted. Heck, it was outright implied that being with your parents at Christmas could get you possessed. Be strong. Stay vigilant. Just don't let anyone talk you out of
this cult......er, the word.
Edited by skyridertypo
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Rocky
duality
As hinted at by the word "dual" within it, duality refers to having two parts, often with opposite meanings, like the duality of good and evil.
If there are two sides to a coin, metaphorically speaking, there's a duality. Peace and war, love and hate, up and down, and black and white are dualities. Another term for a duality is a dichotomy. Duality has technical meanings in geometry and physics. In geometry, duality refers to how points and planes have interchangeable roles in projective geometry. In physics, duality is the property of matter and electromagnetic radiation to be understood best through wave theory or particle theory.
------
This is truth.
As always Skyrider, you make very good points.
I would venture to say that most of us here at GSC hold that there IS a dichotomy between good and evil.
What did Jesus have to say about this particular duality (the one that Skyrider noted in starting this thread)? Forsaking family...
It occurs to me that it raises very intriguing issues especially given that most of us -- even those of us who are now 60+ years old -- were lured into this particular cult when we were of an age that typically sees individuals first establishing their adult lives apart from their parents.
Even a cursory search shows troubling passages in the Gospels. One website attempts to deal with the issue by exploring what it means to forsake all.
It is quite easy for some of us to look back on our lives lived over the last 40 years or so and recognize/acknowledge the truth of Skyrider's original post for this thread.
It's easy for me to see how Wierwille (and those who figured after he kicked the bucket that they could capitalize on what he started) exploited Jesus' words to cement a dependency that would allow them to make their livings off of the labor of their followers. Forsaking earthly family fosters emotional dependence on the cult, does it not? After all, humans are social animals. We all crave a sense of belonging.
Heck, some -- especially those who have for decades exploited mass media (televangelists) -- or even Mega-church pastors to become (filthy) rich.
I wonder, how many millions of dollars does TWI have socked away for rainy days at present? No wonder Wierwille/TWI hammered on the duality of one's personal/family life.
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skyrider
Yep.....................Wierwille's Binary Fixation.....ie dichotomy
More later,..... its 3:30am......time for bed.
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skyrider
One more thing........
One of my purposes for this thread is......to unravel the cult experience GOING FORWARD.
Cults break things......all those cult-relationships became absorbed in a blob.
.
Edited by skyridermore clarity
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skyrider
Insert: My cult-assertions of wierwille are most notably from 1977-1985.
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TLC
Well, skyrider (or former skyrider... however you picture it), in light of the duality of life that you speak of here (and what some may refer to as yin and yang)... here's a thought on the matter.
Noting that you said you were "listening to the music" that moved you, and given where you are now in life (and/or the music that you hear now, or the direction you are moving in or towards), do you not also wonder whether or not the Lord (being the music master) was (and still is) at work within you to best prepare you for all of eternity? If so, perhaps the things that afflict us for a (relatively) short time in this life are not as magnanimous as we sometimes might like to think they are, and may help us to realize that we just aren't as smart or as good or as unselfish as we think (or thought at the time) we are...
Maybe we all too often have a much too narrow and limited perspective on what happens in life, and don't pay as much attention as we should to the music playing right now.
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waysider
That's a mighty fancy way of saying "Just get over it."
(Not a popular view point of people who were genuinely hurt by the organization. Philosophy may augment but does not replace reality.)
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TLC
Why suppose I wasn't genuinely hurt (or that I was less hurt)?
You can try to spin my last post anyway you want, Waysider, but you obviously missed the heart and motive behind it.
Edited by TLCLink to comment
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waysider
I'm all ears. You are more than welcome to elaborate on the specifics of how you were hurt and the heart and motive behind your post. That's a big part of why GSC exists. There are ways to be specific and, at the same time, redact identifying information if that's a matter that concerns you.
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Rocky
It seems you are stating that Waysider misunderstood the message you intended to convey. Isn't it your job then, rather than accusing Waysider of "spin" to clarify for him (us) what you really meant?
We've been through the mechanics of misunderstandings regarding your posts before... one might hope you get the point sooner or later.
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skyrider
Good points, Rocky.
Here we go again. Another rodeo at GSC........another troll hiding in the shadows of inference and innuendo. Notice this person NEVER gives any information or substantiating facts about their own life, but follows around a poster trying to sow discord.
Gawd..........thru the years, we've seen lots of these. Most often, there is a wierwille-apologist nostalgia underneath the cloak. Perhaps, TLC would like to share what *really* is behind his posts and why he comes here? Or.......watch folks, another side-diversion coming in 3-2-1...........
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T-Bone
I thought of a few things on the duality of life – and thanks, Rocky for the link on duality.
My former ministry-mindset would NOT accommodate a duality – rather it focused on supposed dichotomies…conditioned for either-or thinking only. Which is an interesting tangent - it's a false dilemma (see link below) – when only two choices are presented – yet more exist - the type of thinking vp promoted tended to eliminate options and through deception and fallacies one was more or less “forced” to choose his way – because all other options according to him were insane, devilish, worldly, off the word , blah blah blah.
false dilemma
excuse the digression – but I thought it sort of goes with the duality thing.
We were taught that any financial hardships, failures, health issues, etc. were always our fault, we weren’t believing enough, we weren’t putting the word first, we weren’t abundant sharing enough, we weren’t speaking in tongues enough, blah blah blah. What was it with this insane obsession we could manipulate reality – if we would just knuckle down and do all those release-the-genie-in-the-bottle techniques.
We were not encouraged to embrace all of life (take the good with the bad) – but rather to ignore whatever aspects did not fit with TWI’s paradigm. If your spouse…friend…(whoever – you fill in the blank) doesn’t agree with what TWI says is “the word” – then they can take a hike. If you can’t think “the word” at your job – then get a new job.
I think embracing all of life is more realistic – to accept the duality of life - if I want to “own” all the good fortune that comes my way then I think it’s only fitting I should also “own” the unfortunate things that so often comes with the territory. I am so blessed – I am still so crazy about my wife Tonto – she is my inspiration. The odd thing about it is – if I hadn’t been in TWI and gone WOW I never would have met her….yes…it’s true…I married my WOW sister. Scandalous indeed!
However – this worked out pretty good – more than anything else or anyone else – she has been the most helpful to me with my ongoing “project” of unpacking/sorting/analyzing/dealing with the mental baggage of a lifetime (not just TWI stuff)…hopefully I’m becoming a better person or less of an a$$hole…six of one half a dozen of the other…ahhhh there’s that duality of life again…I’m a better person and less of an a$$hole.
Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born…with Down Syndrome. Again I am so thankful we had left TWI – I don’t think I would have handled parenthood properly if I was still in TWI. My concerns would probably have been more centered around myself – what is the matter with my believing? What will other believers think of me? Fortunately for my daughter, when I left TWI I had nothing BUT MY FAMILY to be concerned with. I’ve heard it said people with disabilities often draw out the best in others. I think that is true. Sometimes when we go somewhere like on a vacation or family outing I find myself wondering if I were her what would make this thing we’re doing more enjoyable. I’m really into developing empathy.
Tonto and I have been together for over 40 years. Through thick and thin….WOW, Family Corps….we’ve survived a cult dammit! Through financial hardships, ups and downs in our separate career paths, health issues, car wrecks, helped our son pursue a contractor trade, raising our daughter with a disability. There’s no way we’re giving up on each other now after all we’ve invested in our life together.
Edited by T-Bonetypos and DVD special features
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waysider
You're a good man, Charlie Brown.
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Rocky
I can relate.
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penworks
Thanks so much for sharing your story, T-Bone. You and Tonto are an inspiration! I love it that you pointed out that you're "into developing empathy." In my view, that is a major step in getting us healed from the narcissistic mindset of our past cult life.
The ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes is not always easy. Oddly, during our Way Corps training, in our public speaking class, one principle we were taught from Carnegie was "to try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view." But often we failed at that because we thought we were right all the time when it came to what the Bible said, what God wanted for us, etc. etc. When you think you're right, it's pretty darn hard to see things from another's point of you, but even if you can, you've already made the judgment that their point of view is WRONG. So having a conversation, a civil back and forth, respectful one, is impossible. Thank goodness, when we realize that "certainty" is not possible about most things, we can relax, admit we're human, and appreciate other people ...
Forgive me if I'm "preaching." This is just what's on my mind this morning. I'm fresh from Facebook where someone (a Way Corps guy who married one of my 2nd Corps sisters) accused me of supporting Sharia Law and killing babies because I showed up at the Women's March in Orlando to show support for the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights, and golden rule. Go figure ...
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waysider
Remember that class that was supposed to show people how to separate truth from error?
Yeah, how's that working out?
You rock!
Loved your book.
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skyrider
Cleary, nearly everyone the world over......going thru life or reflecting back......experiences "the duality of life." Whether it comes in the form of race or creed....or inter-marriages from different countries, the range is vast. But, here at GSC......we delve into the aspect of the cult, the way international ....... and in dealing with its aftermath, I see it imperative that we venture into Cult Survivors: The Duality of Life.
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~
My Background: Growing up in Midwest USA, on a farm.......family was deeply inter-connected. My Dad's parents lived less than 30 miles away and my Mom's parents lived less than 10 miles from our home. Since my dad was the oldest of the four siblings and my mom seven years older than her brother.......my family, us siblings, were the "older" cousins in the bunch. And further, at large family reunions.....we had ongoing relations with our second cousins.
Today.....who even talks or considers "second cousins?" Even my two sons would probably look at me and say,......"what?"
I have a picture of me sitting with my maternal great-grandmother. In this picture, I have a full beard.....and she was around 84 years old. My great-grandmother lived another seven years (91) after that and a heritage of five great-great grandchildren taken to see her.
Then, my maternal grandmother.....she lived to the ripe age of 97. She, too, lived to see a fourth generation behind her.......great great grandchildren. My mother passed away at age 86......but she saw 14 of her great grandchildren.
Whereas, my wife.......never saw near "the depth of family" that I experienced in my youth. Her mother was a widow raising three kids......moving from place to place. My wife's father, a marine, died at age 54.....when my wife was 16 years old.
So..........suffice it to say, my wife and I come from very different backgrounds. Then,.......compare that to our two family's backgrounds. No one in my family ever took pfal. Whereas, my wife in her mid-twenties took pfal, etc.......and her sister and mother followed (the one brother stayed ensconced in his tennessee church). Fast forward and up the twi-ranks......my wife and her sister traveled. Later, the sister re-married a harvard graduate.......who later became twi-clergy, and is a splinter group clergyman to this very day. Three of their kids were corps grads......all three left the cult, and none of them or the other siblings associate with twi or the splinter group.
So, yeah..........there's quite a bit of "duality" swirling around the skyrider "cult-survivor" world.
~~~~~~~
Edited by skyridermore clarity
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skyrider
The Cult Had Double-Standards: The elites had a different standard than the shlubs.
In July 1982, wierwille's two youngest children were getting married. JP had graduated from the 10th corps and his sister Sara (8th corps) were in a double-ring wedding ceremony at hq. Wierwille was in his glory. After the double-ring ceremony, there was a big celebration on the blacktop in front of the wierwille home. Live music. Kegs of beer. Open bar. Some were tipsy. Many were in various stages of "drunkenness." Hey,........leeeeeet's party! And, so it was.
In Oct 1982, wierwille was stepping down from 40 years (cough, cough) of being twi's president. Lots of fanfare.
The wierwille family and extended family were paraded across the main stage in the Big Top tent.........The Wierwille Heritage.
So, yeah.........the family issue and wierwille's derogatory insinuations in corps teachings regarding "earthly family" came front and center in my mind. How Convenient....... for him to have this "family inclusiveness" but not us. Mrs. Wierwille's sister, Dee Fisba*gh was, for years, the mayor of New Knoxville. Heck, an estranged brother or two of the wierwille clan seemed to be wandering the grounds. If your status was tied to the wierwille namesake......you got a pass. You were in.
Double standards were everywhere...........and so was "the duality of life" for all the corps and advanced class grads, most notably.
~~~~~~~
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T-Bone
Thanks for your kind words, Penworks.
Preach all you want…and I’ll chime in too. It’s scary how vp’s traits like being callous, mean-spirited, berating and accusing people - rubbed off on some folks. Oh the communicable "wonders" of the way corps training program.
Reminds me of something his star pupil LCM said one corps night (consider this a follow up note to my previous post). At the time I didn’t even write it down but it surfaced in my memory years later as a mean and ugly blast from the past …after our daughter was born. LCM was on some rant of the moment about Special Olympics and he referred to the athletes as freaks of nature…..those were his exact words.
Back to your mention of the Women’s March; they had a big one here yesterday…We would like to have gone to it but couldn’t because of work and other commitments.
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JayDee
He also called them "the devil's handiwork". Miserable S. O. B.
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higherground30
Your a good man Tbone! !
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chockfull
Sorry you went through that penworks. I would venture to say your accuser probably has more issues with their own past than with you. I also feel that empathy for other humans is a moral trait we didn't exercise much in the Way. Its easier to be empathetic towards someone you perceive to be like you. It takes work to get to empathy towards those you perceive as different from you. Thankfully I married someone opposite to me in many ways. Therefore I get daily work at something I'm not good at naturally. I'm actually making some progress. Who knows where I might be in another 10 or 20 years. :)
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TLC
Yeah, all ears for any dirt and smut that you hope might spill out on vpw or twi (the BIG part of GSC), but evidently not for anything aimed towards any healing or recovery from it. I supposed that to be some part of GSC (even if only a very little part), but perhaps I am mistaken.
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TLC
Nope. Not my job. If someone is bent on reading or taking what I said the wrong way, so be it. Same goes for you (and anybody else.) I didn't make a mistake when I wrote what I wrote, and it seems I may not have any better way to say it if there's no effort on your part to see or think about it from a different perspective.
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