Paul kept getting more revelations from the ascended Savior on what to tell us and the way God’s working with us today.
Appears to me that's rather presumptuous. What makes you so sure that he didn't receive the vast majority, if not all, the revelation of the gospel given to him while he was in the Arabian desert (Mt. Sinai ?) before he ever started preaching a word of it?
Achieving God’s goals for our ambassadorship is learning to distinguish his goal, from his desire. It is a critical distinction, because it can spell the difference between success and failure. His goal is any specific result reflecting his purposes for our ambassadorship, that does not depend on people or circumstances beyond our ability. The only person who can block his goal or render it uncertain or impossible is us, and if we adopt the attitude of cooperation with his goals, his goal can be reached. His desire is any specific result that depends on the cooperation of other people or the success of events or favorable circumstances we cannot control.
Appears to me that's rather presumptuous. What makes you so sure that he didn't receive the vast majority, if not all, the revelation of the gospel given to him while he was in the Arabian desert (Mt. Sinai ?) before he ever started preaching a word of it?
Paul had the wrong goals and keep wanting to go to the Israelites. That program was put on hold. So God imprisoned Paul so to speak and his word was finally complete out of a prison.
Paul had the wrong goals and keep wanting to go to the Israelites. That program was put on hold. So God imprisoned Paul so to speak and his word was finally complete out of a prison.
I have a different take on that; Yes, he always had great concern for Israel but he also knew he was an apostle to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:8); As a case in point, perhaps a sort of convergence of goals may be seen in Paul’s mission to Jerusalem. I think Paul was committed to completing this critical relief mission - delivering donations from the Gentile churches to the poor in the Jerusalem church. It would mean a lot to strengthening unity in the church as a whole – the Gentile churches helping out the Jerusalem church.
I could be wrong but I really don’t think he had the “wrong goals” since in this particular case he said his mission to Jerusalem was part of the ministry he received from the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:24), and he was purposed in the spirit to go there (Acts 19:21) and even bound in the spirit on his way (Acts 20:22). Perhaps another way to look at the warnings he received before going there was that it was God’s way of giving him a heads-up so he wouldn’t get blindsided.
Contrary to how “old Doc” taught it in PFAL, I believe the account of Paul going to Jerusalem shows his courage and commitment to see his God-given mission through no matter what the cost was to him personally – that must have been very inspirational and motivating to other Christians. That’s why I think he earned the right to pen such bold and challenging epistles – having the gravitas…the battlefield experience behind his voice…not like some armchair warrior…speaking of which - like I said I think “old Doc” got that…and a whole lot of other things wrong too.
I have a different take on that; Yes, he always had great concern for Israel but he also knew he was an apostle to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:8); As a case in point, perhaps a sort of convergence of goals may be seen in Paul’s mission to Jerusalem. I think Paul was committed to completing this critical relief mission - delivering donations from the Gentile churches to the poor in the Jerusalem church. It would mean a lot to strengthening unity in the church as a whole – the Gentile churches helping out the Jerusalem church.
I could be wrong but I really don’t think he had the “wrong goals” since in this particular case he said his mission to Jerusalem was part of the ministry he received from the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:24), and he was purposed in the spirit to go there (Acts 19:21) and even bound in the spirit on his way (Acts 20:22). Perhaps another way to look at the warnings he received before going there was that it was God’s way of giving him a heads-up so he wouldn’t get blindsided.
Contrary to how “old Doc” taught it in PFAL, I believe the account of Paul going to Jerusalem shows his courage and commitment to see his God-given mission through no matter what the cost was to him personally – that must have been very inspirational and motivating to other Christians. That’s why I think he earned the right to pen such bold and challenging epistles – having the gravitas…the battlefield experience behind his voice…not like some armchair warrior…speaking of which - like I said I think “old Doc” got that…and a whole lot of other things wrong too.
Well said. But the fact that Paul finished what God wanted him to say was from prison. It was from there God's Word to us was completed.
Well said. But the fact that Paul finished what God wanted him to say was from prison. It was from there God's Word to us was completed.
I beg to differ – sorry to rain on your “sensational parade” – if you’re referring to when the Bible was completed and NOT to the esoteric philosophical nonsense of vp’s “the word” - you might want to look into the probable dates of when the New Testament documents were written…there’s Hebrews, James, books of Peter, epistles of John, Jude, and Revelation that according to most scholars were written after Paul’s letters.
I beg to differ – sorry to rain on your “sensational parade” – if you’re referring to when the Bible was completed and NOT to the esoteric philosophical nonsense of vp’s “the word” - you might want to look into the probable dates of when the New Testament documents were written…there’s Hebrews, James, books of Peter, epistles of John, Jude, and Revelation that according to most scholars were written after Paul’s letters.
Those writing are not for you. This is the age of grace buddy. Those are for the Israelites after the body of the Savior is lifted off the earth. Will they not need instruction about what's going on before they face Jacob's trouble, the seven years of tribulation they must go through?
The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.
Right waysider, "to you/for you" throws the words of Jesus Christ out the window. I'm not willing to do that anymore. I'm a Christian not a Paulian or a Peterian!
Love what Paul and Peter and others wrote, but nobody said anything more important to me than what Jesus said.
The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.
I agree Waysider - vp’s (and other dispensationalists) use of addressed to you vs for your learning – seems to be something deliberately fabricated rather than a natural sense of what’s written – and as such it comes across as something artificial or unrealistic (and conveniently favoring vp’s licentious agenda – more on that later). Dispensationalism ignores context and even the big picture – the whole enchilada – the entire Bible – uhm…..Genesis to Revelation.
I think it’s futile to argue with a dispensationalist since their means of interpretation is flawed; a dispensationalist’s interpretation usually depends on isolated passagesthat only apply at certain times and if that’s not slippery enough for ya, they will have no qualms ruling out any verse or verses that disagree with their position simply on the grounds that it does not apply.
Waysider also mentioned the canon of the Bible – maybe that’s another issue with dispensationalism; Canon is from the Greek word kanon and means a rule or measuring stick; A canonical book is one that measures up to the standard of Holy Scripture – therefore the canon of Scripture refers to the books that are considered to be the authoritative Word of God. It seems to me that the malleable measuring stick of dispensationalists tends to selectively invalidate the authority of the Word of God when and where it suits them.
Right waysider, "to you/for you" throws the words of Jesus Christ out the window. I'm not willing to do that anymore. I'm a Christian not a Paulian or a Peterian!
Love what Paul and Peter and others wrote, but nobody said anything more important to me than what Jesus said.
JayDee, love your post – it made me think of something else - I think most Christians have a favorite book or books in the Bible; I have several favorites – one of which is the gospel of John. Really, when it comes to anything Jesus said in any of the gospels I tend to consider that the standard for simple goof-proof Christianity; I mean verses like Luke 6:46 why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say? – how much simpler can it get?!?! Oddly enough, vp used a gospel verse (John 10:10) as the hook for his Power For Abundant Living class –a class with a materialistic appeal - -and the class promoted a cheap grace that does not require repentance…and that brings me back to something I mentioned above.
vp’s licentious agenda:Consider carefully the words of Jesus Christ:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The experts in the law and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore pay attention to what they tell you and do it. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 4 They tie up heavy loads, hard to carry, and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing even to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 23: 1-4 New English Translation.
Teachmevp, I do not know what degree of involvement you have had with The Way International if any at all (forgive me if you shared this elsewhere and I haven’t read it)and how much stock you put in the teachings of victor paul wierwille. But for the sake of brevity I’ll get to the point. From what I gather of the numerous threads you’ve started – it seems to me you are not aware of vp’s utter hypocrisy that knew no bounds! The public persona of vp had a nice Christian veneer to it – but like Jekyll and Hyde - his dark side…known to staff and way corps may be along the lines of what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 23.
And let’s not oversimplify the issues with vp and his teachings – it’s not that he taught one thing and did something else – it goes much deeper than that…insidiously deeper than all that…the philosophy behind his teachings is the problem…it was there at the beginning in PFAL…laying the groundwork for a manipulative and abusive ministry:
If you like to think of him as the man chosen by God to teach us “the word”, founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry, concerned with the accuracy and integrity of “the word” – then you might want to check out the book Undertow, the author, Charlene, was in the way corps (vp’s leadership training program) and in vp’s research department – you will get an eye-opening excursion through the inner workings of his ministry and the pressure he exerted on all NOT to contradict anything he taught.
If you don’t think I was serious about how vp twisted dispensationalism into a perverted cheap grace then you may want to check out Losing the Way, the author, Kristen, was sexually molested by vp - and she relates the scripture twisting he’d do to try to make it all seem ok – verses like unto the pure all things are pure – ugh! the guy was a pig…sick, evil, unconscionable pig! Kristen was also in the way corps – vp’s leadership training program.
If you were in the way and never heard of any of this stuff – it’s probably because of the lockbox – it’s mentioned in the two books above and in another book The Cult That Snapped…. The lockbox was a nifty little psychological device vp invented to keep his sexual predations secret. The author, Karl, was also in the way corps – vp’s leadership training program.
If you feel any of the above info is upsetting, unbelievable or just plain shocking news it may be that you spend some much time in the Doctrinal forum and ignore the About the Way forum. If you don’t care to read any of the books I’ve listed then at least check out the About the Way forum – it’s free! You might get a clearer picture of what vp was all about from the stories of folks that went through his training program and worked alongside him. I also was in the way corps program and have shared about vp’s sedative to the conscience
The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.
I agree Waysider - vp’s (and other dispensationalists) use of addressed to you vs for your learning – seems to be something deliberately fabricated rather than a natural sense of what’s written – and as such it comes across as something artificial or unrealistic (and conveniently favoring vp’s licentious agenda – more on that later). Dispensationalism ignores context and even the big picture – the whole enchilada – the entire Bible – uhm…..Genesis to Revelation.
Y'all's opinion, of course. This simply isn't a thread I care to discuss it in, 'cause simply put, I concur that vpw (and certain others) didn't teach it right. But neither do you! The fact that the bible does speak of various oikonomia's is NOT something which is "contrived," and clearly refutes any ostentatious efforts to sway some into thinking otherwise. However, as already noted, this isn't a proper thread to say more on the matter.
The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.
But they do indeed. Read what is for you and don't eat off another's table that isn't for you. Paul was striving to know the Savior and know him intimately not as the lowly Nazarene...not as Israel’s Messiah...not as the man from Galilee...not as simply another great teacher...not as simply a prophet, but to know him in the power of his resurrection and in the fellowship of his suffering. Paul wanted the Savior’s life to be manifest in his own life. Take in God’s Word that you might be transformed by that Word. You must take part in the ingestion and absorption of his word rightly divided. Transformation God’s responsibility. The ingestion and absorption of divine viewpoint the believer’s responsibility. Religion is fill with lots of people who would rather beg God to fix their suffering circumstances rather than to thank God for his enabling grace that is sufficient for every suffering saint, that energizing power. Paul’s great desire was to know the Savior in his resurrection power because that same power that raised Jesus from among the dead was operating or energizing in Paul and it’s energizing in you. Ephesians 1:17-20
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TLC
Appears to me that's rather presumptuous. What makes you so sure that he didn't receive the vast majority, if not all, the revelation of the gospel given to him while he was in the Arabian desert (Mt. Sinai ?) before he ever started preaching a word of it?
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teachmevp
Achieving God’s goals for our ambassadorship is learning to distinguish his goal, from his desire. It is a critical distinction, because it can spell the difference between success and failure. His goal is any specific result reflecting his purposes for our ambassadorship, that does not depend on people or circumstances beyond our ability. The only person who can block his goal or render it uncertain or impossible is us, and if we adopt the attitude of cooperation with his goals, his goal can be reached. His desire is any specific result that depends on the cooperation of other people or the success of events or favorable circumstances we cannot control.
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teachmevp
Paul had the wrong goals and keep wanting to go to the Israelites. That program was put on hold. So God imprisoned Paul so to speak and his word was finally complete out of a prison.
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T-Bone
I have a different take on that; Yes, he always had great concern for Israel but he also knew he was an apostle to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:8); As a case in point, perhaps a sort of convergence of goals may be seen in Paul’s mission to Jerusalem. I think Paul was committed to completing this critical relief mission - delivering donations from the Gentile churches to the poor in the Jerusalem church. It would mean a lot to strengthening unity in the church as a whole – the Gentile churches helping out the Jerusalem church.
I could be wrong but I really don’t think he had the “wrong goals” since in this particular case he said his mission to Jerusalem was part of the ministry he received from the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:24), and he was purposed in the spirit to go there (Acts 19:21) and even bound in the spirit on his way (Acts 20:22). Perhaps another way to look at the warnings he received before going there was that it was God’s way of giving him a heads-up so he wouldn’t get blindsided.
Contrary to how “old Doc” taught it in PFAL, I believe the account of Paul going to Jerusalem shows his courage and commitment to see his God-given mission through no matter what the cost was to him personally – that must have been very inspirational and motivating to other Christians. That’s why I think he earned the right to pen such bold and challenging epistles – having the gravitas…the battlefield experience behind his voice…not like some armchair warrior…speaking of which - like I said I think “old Doc” got that…and a whole lot of other things wrong too.
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teachmevp
Well said. But the fact that Paul finished what God wanted him to say was from prison. It was from there God's Word to us was completed.
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T-Bone
I beg to differ – sorry to rain on your “sensational parade” – if you’re referring to when the Bible was completed and NOT to the esoteric philosophical nonsense of vp’s “the word” - you might want to look into the probable dates of when the New Testament documents were written…there’s Hebrews, James, books of Peter, epistles of John, Jude, and Revelation that according to most scholars were written after Paul’s letters.
dating when the books of the Bible were written
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teachmevp
Those writing are not for you. This is the age of grace buddy. Those are for the Israelites after the body of the Savior is lifted off the earth. Will they not need instruction about what's going on before they face Jacob's trouble, the seven years of tribulation they must go through?
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waysider
The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.
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JayDee
Right waysider, "to you/for you" throws the words of Jesus Christ out the window. I'm not willing to do that anymore. I'm a Christian not a Paulian or a Peterian!
Love what Paul and Peter and others wrote, but nobody said anything more important to me than what Jesus said.
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T-Bone
I agree Waysider - vp’s (and other dispensationalists) use of addressed to you vs for your learning – seems to be something deliberately fabricated rather than a natural sense of what’s written – and as such it comes across as something artificial or unrealistic (and conveniently favoring vp’s licentious agenda – more on that later). Dispensationalism ignores context and even the big picture – the whole enchilada – the entire Bible – uhm…..Genesis to Revelation.
I think it’s futile to argue with a dispensationalist since their means of interpretation is flawed; a dispensationalist’s interpretation usually depends on isolated passages that only apply at certain times and if that’s not slippery enough for ya, they will have no qualms ruling out any verse or verses that disagree with their position simply on the grounds that it does not apply.
Waysider also mentioned the canon of the Bible – maybe that’s another issue with dispensationalism; Canon is from the Greek word kanon and means a rule or measuring stick; A canonical book is one that measures up to the standard of Holy Scripture – therefore the canon of Scripture refers to the books that are considered to be the authoritative Word of God. It seems to me that the malleable measuring stick of dispensationalists tends to selectively invalidate the authority of the Word of God when and where it suits them.
the canon of Scripture
JayDee, love your post – it made me think of something else - I think most Christians have a favorite book or books in the Bible; I have several favorites – one of which is the gospel of John. Really, when it comes to anything Jesus said in any of the gospels I tend to consider that the standard for simple goof-proof Christianity; I mean verses like Luke 6:46 why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say? – how much simpler can it get?!?! Oddly enough, vp used a gospel verse (John 10:10) as the hook for his Power For Abundant Living class –a class with a materialistic appeal - -and the class promoted a cheap grace that does not require repentance…and that brings me back to something I mentioned above.
vp’s licentious agenda: Consider carefully the words of Jesus Christ:
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The experts in the law and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore pay attention to what they tell you and do it. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 4 They tie up heavy loads, hard to carry, and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing even to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 23: 1-4 New English Translation.
Teachmevp, I do not know what degree of involvement you have had with The Way International if any at all (forgive me if you shared this elsewhere and I haven’t read it) and how much stock you put in the teachings of victor paul wierwille. But for the sake of brevity I’ll get to the point. From what I gather of the numerous threads you’ve started – it seems to me you are not aware of vp’s utter hypocrisy that knew no bounds! The public persona of vp had a nice Christian veneer to it – but like Jekyll and Hyde - his dark side…known to staff and way corps may be along the lines of what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 23.
And let’s not oversimplify the issues with vp and his teachings – it’s not that he taught one thing and did something else – it goes much deeper than that…insidiously deeper than all that…the philosophy behind his teachings is the problem…it was there at the beginning in PFAL…laying the groundwork for a manipulative and abusive ministry:
The Subtle Thread which runs throughout PFAL
If you like to think of him as the man chosen by God to teach us “the word”, founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry, concerned with the accuracy and integrity of “the word” – then you might want to check out the book Undertow, the author, Charlene, was in the way corps (vp’s leadership training program) and in vp’s research department – you will get an eye-opening excursion through the inner workings of his ministry and the pressure he exerted on all NOT to contradict anything he taught.
Undertow
If you don’t think I was serious about how vp twisted dispensationalism into a perverted cheap grace then you may want to check out Losing the Way, the author, Kristen, was sexually molested by vp - and she relates the scripture twisting he’d do to try to make it all seem ok – verses like unto the pure all things are pure – ugh! the guy was a pig…sick, evil, unconscionable pig! Kristen was also in the way corps – vp’s leadership training program.
Losing the Way
If you were in the way and never heard of any of this stuff – it’s probably because of the lockbox – it’s mentioned in the two books above and in another book The Cult That Snapped…. The lockbox was a nifty little psychological device vp invented to keep his sexual predations secret. The author, Karl, was also in the way corps – vp’s leadership training program.
The Cult That Snapped
If you feel any of the above info is upsetting, unbelievable or just plain shocking news it may be that you spend some much time in the Doctrinal forum and ignore the About the Way forum. If you don’t care to read any of the books I’ve listed then at least check out the About the Way forum – it’s free! You might get a clearer picture of what vp was all about from the stories of folks that went through his training program and worked alongside him. I also was in the way corps program and have shared about vp’s sedative to the conscience
TWI's Sedative to the Conscience
sorry for this long post….sometimes I just have to rant when I hear preaching based on vp’s extra-strength toxicity. Please don’t take it personal.
Edited by T-Bonetrying to beat the clock on the server
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TLC
Y'all's opinion, of course. This simply isn't a thread I care to discuss it in, 'cause simply put, I concur that vpw (and certain others) didn't teach it right. But neither do you! The fact that the bible does speak of various oikonomia's is NOT something which is "contrived," and clearly refutes any ostentatious efforts to sway some into thinking otherwise. However, as already noted, this isn't a proper thread to say more on the matter.
(Though I probably would on some other, such as this: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24185-oikonomia/#comment-571969 )
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waysider
Rather than continue on a discourse about dispensations, let it at least be noted that the Gospels were written AFTER the Epistles.
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teachmevp
But they do indeed. Read what is for you and don't eat off another's table that isn't for you. Paul was striving to know the Savior and know him intimately not as the lowly Nazarene...not as Israel’s Messiah...not as the man from Galilee...not as simply another great teacher...not as simply a prophet, but to know him in the power of his resurrection and in the fellowship of his suffering. Paul wanted the Savior’s life to be manifest in his own life. Take in God’s Word that you might be transformed by that Word. You must take part in the ingestion and absorption of his word rightly divided. Transformation God’s responsibility. The ingestion and absorption of divine viewpoint the believer’s responsibility. Religion is fill with lots of people who would rather beg God to fix their suffering circumstances rather than to thank God for his enabling grace that is sufficient for every suffering saint, that energizing power. Paul’s great desire was to know the Savior in his resurrection power because that same power that raised Jesus from among the dead was operating or energizing in Paul and it’s energizing in you. Ephesians 1:17-20
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waysider
Waysider:
"The canon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written."
teachmevp:
"But they do indeed."
uhhmmm.......No, the Gospels were written quite some time after the life of Jesus and after the writing of the Epistles.
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T-Bone
you guys are right....sorry about the detour down dispensational lane...my bad
peace to everyone...and best wishes for the holidays and the new year!
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