Some great points, Waysider….your post got me to reflect on my views before, during and after TWI…Before TWI I was into the arts (playing in bands and pursuing an education in fine arts) – late 60s early 70s…and I used to have a live and let live philosophy – and perhaps that was the prevailing attitude with most of the folks I hung out with. I’m not a social scene expert but people into the arts were somewhat of a counterculture – we did our own thing and it was beautiful...."It's your thing do what ya wanna do...I can't tell ya who to sock it to..."
I don’t remember a big focus on sexual orientation back then – it was not a prominent issue back then - and besides I had my religious environment – Catholic grammar, high school and college…so you have that whole sexual repression thing going on anyway (…funny how both the Catholic church and TWI have had problems with sexual predators). i think that stayed with me – even today I still think they ought to get all that sex stuff off the big screen and put it back in the home where it belongs – I’m here all week folks. ..... Seriously, what did I find so interesting about folks I hung out with? it was simply whatever was at the center of their life – be it drumming, painting, writing, philosophizing, and how that is what made them happy…fulfilled or something.
But then I get in TWI and lo and behold – I’m railroaded into getting on whatever bandwagon they had going at the time. Tolerance is NOT one of the manifestations of the TWI spirit. Keep in mind I am the Rob Petrie type – you can get me to do some things – but if it goes against my nature I do it while dragging my feet. Man, I turned off a lot of my friends as I pushed PFAL – with the old sales pitch this will improve your relationship with god or it will help you get better at what you do…some bull$hit like that…fast forward to being in the corps program – I remember some rant by LCM over taking a stand against homosexuality – and it was revolutionary (I say that sarcastically) – it was something along the lines of even being united with other denominations against homosexuals – who cares if they believe in the Trinity, we can work on that later… chuckle, chuckle….TWI does not tolerate differences very well.
So now – a lot of years since I left TWI – I’m back to the live and let live philosophy…and life is simple again…now I’m more concerned about my immediate world than what’s going on “out there”…it took me a long time to realize how hypocritical I was in the Way. I used to put on “Twig face” and was nice to everyone in the Way – yet being such an azzhole to my wife and kids at home. Talk about a relationship that needs improving! We’ve be at it for 40 years now – I’m still crazy about Tonto – and I’m thankful she puts up with me…I work on trying to be less of an azzhole on a regular basis now…I started out small - just while on vacations, mother’s day, our anniversary, her birthday…but now I try to dial down my azzhole-ness throughout the week….it’s just a walk, people.
T-bone, I know how you feel!! Back when I was in TWI, I was an azzhole also! The love of God really did cover me during the 10 years I spent in TWI, thank God. Now days, I live and let live. I don't force my opinions on anyone; and that includes politics, and religion.
Your posts are terrific! Even after all these years, I did not realize you were there until 1998! Your detailed info from the perspective of being a Limb guy during the Okie Dope's Reign of Terror is unique. Therefore, keep em coming! Great documentation from firsthand experience. Accurate, documentable, FACTS about TWIt throughout its various iterations is THE single greatest weapon in their battle to avoid the throes of their inevitable death. The recent posts by you, Chockful, Shortfuse, Krys, Penworks, and many other greasespotters of late, have been the best info on TWIt since the 2007-2010 period IMO. That means tangible damage is being done to the cult of Crotchaven as it prepares to go through the optics of another mantle toss! Some things seem to just refuse to change.
Thanks Skyrider for ALL the many hours you have devoted to the mission of this website. Almost 5000 posts! You have helped many brother. The Boss is happy I'm sure. Fuggedabouddit!
Yes Sky, thank you! So much of this happened after I left in 1988. Now, I understand some of went on in Way World. So much garbage happened to people who often didn't deserve it.
Before martindale pushed the level to Insanity on Steroids........there still was "insanity" at headquarters. Okay, maybe "insanity" is a bit much.....but think about this: Why was the research department being marginalized, purged and under constant assault by wierwille?
If the way ministry was truly (cough, cough) a "Research, Teaching, and Fellowship" ministry........why the purge?
When I was on hq-staff in the time frame of 1979-1984.....the research department was A BIG DEAL. Not sure when "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was released, but the research department held some of the "spiritual heavyweights" at hq. When any of these men and women walked the halls of the OSC.....they were highly respected [by me, for sure]. The buzz of this "new research" JCOPS was in the air. And, if I remember correctly, there was a time or two when one of the research guys sat next to wierwille (or walter) ON CORPS NIGHT.....as they broke new ground and taught it to the corps.
Specific teachings were even inserted for corps and staff......."The Bethlehem Star." Heck, with the unveiling of this new book and research....even wierwille had to acknowledge and pay tribute to THE RESEARCH TEAM publically, and in the book. At this time, even wierwille could NOT hog all the praise and accolades.
Later, in 1983.....wierwille was gearing up for "Harmony of the Gospels" to be taught at Sound Out '84 in Nashville. Once again, several on the research team were highly instrumental in all of this. I'm sure there are some posters here at GSC that know MUCH MORE about these specifics that I do.....but my point is that Biblical Truth, as best we knew, was what carried the zeal. At least, it was for me.
And, the GMIR articles in The Way magazine.....good stuff. Some of these in-depth topics were written by corps grads in Chicago....working on master's & doctorate degrees. From 1979-1985......was the pinnacle of new research coming forth. And, added to this -- the Aramaic work by Charlene as detailed in Undertow. Yet, some of the great talent and minds were leaving twi.
Why did twi systematically PURGE the research department?
I remember JCOPS; what a great book!! And you are right Sky; it was a big deal in TWI! Poor VPW; I knew when I read it, that he didn't have anything to do with it. It was so well-written, it had to have been written by smart, talented people, which VPW wasn't.
T-bone, I know how you feel!! Back when I was in TWI, I was an azzhole also! The love of God really did cover me during the 10 years I spent in TWI, thank God. Now days, I live and let live. I don't force my opinions on anyone; and that includes politics, and religion.
Hi Grace VC - I always look forward to when you're on a posting spree - I appreciate your input.
Tonto and I are re-watching The Office - we're up to season 4; the relationship between Michael and Jan is so funny and interesting too! It reminds me of us - we both have issues - but unlike Michael I try to not be so oblivious to my weirdness; often as another way of saying I love you to each other one of us will say " thanks for putting up with me." Acceptance
Wierwille Takes Direct Aim: When wierwille steamed with fury......his outcry was a rifle, martindale used a shotgun (or buckshot "scatter-gun"). From my observations, I would say that wierwille was far more selective of his target. With wierwille, any dissent was personal. But wierwille was cunning and crafty.....he didn't unmask this fury to the general public. Except for the occasional advanced class rant, wierwille kept his fury ire directed at corps leadership and rogue clergy in closed-meetings.
I witnessed three extreme episodes of rifled-fury as keynoted in this thread.....A Series of Purges
To those who've read these accounts, my apologies for the re-iteration......but thought it should be inserted here.
Sky, years ago I heard VPW go off on a reporter. Wow, was I shocked! I was new in the word, but thought VPW handled the situation quite poorly. I thought VPW should have asked the reporter, in a nice way to leave. Instead, VPW had him kicked-out. I thought VPW looked like an azzhole.
I'd like to join in on these thank-yous as well. Especially to Pawtucket for making this important and necessary sitei available. The good it does for many is clear and provable!
Lani, that is so true!! When I think about my time in TWI, I realize now that I was fed a lot of bullsheet. I spent 10 years listening to a lot of garbage, and then wondered why so many of my prayers went unanswered. I was so young, and stupid. Nowadays, I am very careful about how I spend my time, and who I give money too.
Why......didn't you just leave the corps program and walk?
Why......didn't you confront wierwille/martindale on this?
One of the reasons for telling my story is........because I think it's a compelling story. In the process of living life, I unearthed me.....the things deep down, the things I value, what I stand for, and what I will not stand for, why I refuse to quit when things get rough, the inner core of what I want my kids to know about me......yeah, who I really am. Do other people search deep into their hearts in earnest? I don't know. Perhaps, it was all that open space and thought time while driving tractors on the farm. I could probably trace its roots all the way back to my childhood.....when I pondered at the stars in the night sky. But really......its when I went off to college that I took those first steps of my journey.
Should I regret my involvement in twi? To a small degree, yes.......but mainly, no. Why "the small degree, yes?"........because I regret the estrangement that was built between me and my parents via lack of communication, sudden changes, foolish spontaneity, and weird behavior (zeal in an obscure cult). How could they possibly understand my dropping out of college, going wow ambassador two years, back to back? They were perplexed and frightened.....and I seemed to be "behind a wall" to them. Years later, when I was months away from corps graduation.......they really thought they'd lose me forever (ex-communicated like scientology people), so my parents paid something in the neighborhood of $16,000 to get me deprogrammed from this cult. They were ready and willing to do it for my fiancé as well. They were right from the get-go...about twi. A parents' love looks different when you're a young adult.....as opposed to when, decades later, you look back. Suffice it to say, after this 10-day episode and I went back to twi.....my parents were deeply broken. And, even though I regained a small measure of that relationship back ten years before my father's death......the wounds were scarred in sorrow.
This deprogramming episode was/is on both sides of my measuring "regret."
As for "mainly, no?"........sure, I despise the corps indoctrination and exploitation et al, but I can't, deep within my heart, regret going into the corps, and on staff at hq......because, only on this path would I have continued to grow in love with this beautiful woman whom I, later, married. We were separated from one another during my final in-residence year and writing letters back and forth, love-planning for our lives together. But an unforeseen detour awaited us......don't they always? During my corps block at Camp Gunnison, my parents came to visit unannounced on a Friday afternoon in late April. Tom J., the corps coordinator, told me I couldn't leave grounds, but rather could go out to breakfast with them in town the next morning. So, my parents left and got a motel room in Gunnison.
In the morning, my parents picked me up at camp gunnison, at the gate, and we went to breakfast. Deceptively, they'd schemed a plan involving stopping back at their motel room before buying me some new clothes. Little did I realize the four men, thugs, who rushed thru the motel door and body-slammed me on the bed.....then, bound my hands, duct-tapped my legs together and gagged me before carrying me to a cargo van headed to Kansas. Gone without a trace. My fiancé worried and wondered. Twi sent out "enforcers" to my hometown to find me and bring me back...with no success. Ten days of deprogramming tactics.....[weeks later, I typed 36-pages detailing the account]. After the deprogramming, and slipping out the side door of that half-way house......I was flown to the Dayton airport, greeted by my fiancé and twi's security unit en route back to hq. After corps graduation, we were married in the brc and worked on staff. We have two wonderful sons. Thankfully, we exited before the gaunlet of classes and indoctrination. that awaited them. I could brag about them both.....their achievements and success. Isn't this the kind of drama, struggle, obstacles, pain, love and redemption that movie-goers go to see? To go "back in time" and change my twi-involvement, would change everything in my life.
Why did I stay so long? Because.......I was waiting for the confluence of multiple variables to flow together. I was waiting for the right moment where all of us, together, could jump and roll.....and walk away uninjured. The right spot, the right conditions.....helping others, too, if we could.....before jumping.
I remember someone once said....."It's not what we do in life that we regret...it's what we don't do."
I was doing what I thought was right.
Sky, thank you for all of your information about TWI. I really had no idea how much sheet believers had to deal with during Craig's reign of terror. I keep asking myself why I stayed in TWI long after I should have left. I thought in time, TWI would get it's sheet together. Obviously, I was wrong; things went downhill after I left.
The years skyrider is writing about have been eyeopening for me. We got in in '80 and left in '87. Had no idea of the depth of depravity twi had sunk to. Knew it was bad, (which is why I got out) but didn't know how far reaching the manipulation and control had become.
Thank you for taking your time to help me personally.
And me personally!! Rocky, when I got in TWI back in 1978, it was great! We had great fellowships, and fun together as believers. However, things really started to change around 1980-1981. Instead of having loving fellowships, it seemed to me that there was a big push to run classes, and send people out WOW, or have them go Corps. The bottom line in my view, was money. God forbid you have a normal life; you know, go to college and/ or work. No, no, no!! Push those classes, no matter what! I got sick of it, and pulled back. I still attended Twig, but I had a personal life also. I was never a big wheel in TWI, nor did I want to be. I wanted a life.
I'm 70 years old and was in twi from 80-87. As far as I'm concerned, what you're doing here is nothing short of heroic.
Thank you for revisiting this time in your life for our benefit.
Yes Sky, thanks!! I was out of TWI by then, and didn't know most of the garbage that went on in TWI after I left. I am thankful that I left when I did.
There are so many AWESOME posters here at The Spot. The accumulative unveiling of "the other side of the twit-cult" has been going on for like 17 years.........and, imo, it has exposed their seedy, sordid underbelly. Wierwille was a shyster and a predator........and those splinter groups are two-fold the children of the corn.
Long live GreaseSpot...........where us patrons celebrate LIFE.
There are so many AWESOME posters here at The Spot. The accumulative unveiling of "the other side of the twit-cult" has been going on for like 17 years.........and, imo, it has exposed their seedy, sordid underbelly. Wierwille was a shyster and a predator........and those splinter groups are two-fold the children of the corn.
Long live GreaseSpot...........where us patrons celebrate LIFE.
Yes honey, you are so right!! I did not know the seedy side of TWI, until I came to the GSC. If I had known, really known all the sheet that happened in Way World, I would have left much sooner.
When the "Emergency Expense Cutting Measures" policy arrived in the mail, my wife and I read it together.
"These necessary measures are a benefit spiritually as well as financially for the entire household."
Every time twi enacts policy mandates, or program objectives, they stand on their podium and laud the spiritual benefits. Where are those elusive "spiritual benefits" going to come from if they claw back 10% of our salary? At the time, I believe our bi-monthly paycheck was $1,150.......$2,300 per month and came to the grand total of $27,600 per year (household income). Sure, there was petty cash reimbursement for gas, food, and motel expense IF those expenditures were "ministry related." The "housing allowance" category remains a grey-area in my mind, but to me.....it was hardly relevant. The limb home was a buzz of weekly activity with my office, meetings, classes etc.....hardly "a home." But still.......$115 from our paycheck, twice a month, was unsettling. I knew we could cut some grocery expense from the budget, but by no means were we splurging or eating steak every week.
The cost-cutting was not the problem for me, it was the principle of the thing.....and what got us to this point! And, another thing......what about them, martindale, don and howard? They seemed to be living quite large. Martindale in particular; he was on the receiving end of constant adulation, travel benefits, perks of every kind.....AND after finishing those video-tapings of the wap-series, gifts large and small were pouring into the corps chalet. Nor did I presume to have any idea what other field corps' salaries were around the country, that was their business, not mine......but I signed on the line and agreed to a "needs-basis" salary as to how I saw our needs, my family of four. I had not been greedy in padding our numbers, not in my mind anyways. This whole business of "needs-basis" was so subjective anyways that it screamed of irregularities, favoritism and elitism. The audacity of martindale to, on one hand, puff his chest about the "full-time corps revelation" and now, be cutting our salaries? It reeked of flagrant hypocrisy in my mind.
We went down the list to begin the process:
More economical grocery shopping: Okay, we will be more diligent on coupons and definitely cut back on any chips and snacks.
Children's activities (i.e dance lessons, art lessons, private art or fencing lessons: Huh? Are corps really doing this? Wide-spread?
Health club memberships: Perhaps, a few corps might have this.....maybe to swim.....like those with knee problems?
Health and Grooming (i.e. monthly manicures, expensive haircuts): Not us, haircuts....sure. But expensive? Naw.
Secular magazine subscriptions: Maybe, my wife picked one up occasionally at the grocery checkout line....but no subscriptions.
Economical, local vacations: We hadn't taken an extended or long vacation...EVER!....all those years in twi.
Then, the next highlighted section began with cable tv. This was NOT a suggestion as the ones previous; this was a mandated directive. "We are eliminating from your housing allowance the money we give you for cable tv." Twi was eliminating it. Again, those words....... "we give you." How damn benevolent of "our masters" to give this money, this salary to us each month......this salary that we were working our a$$es off for. In the days that followed, the more I thought about those words "we give you".....this slap across the face, it irked me to no end. Screw them......(I'd use stronger words, but this is a public forum).
Now.......The Question was "Where?"
Where........in our monthly budget will we cut?
Where........is the fine line between "need" and "want?"
Where........can we cut from one area to help another?
Where........are the boundary lines to stop this intrusion on MY family?
Where........is this leading to and when will it end?
Sky, another great post! I also noticed that the BOD, and VPW lived much better than the average Way person. I remember the 1978(?) Gray Lincoln Continental that VPW used to ride around in. Holy Moly, I could barely afford to pay my rent, and other bills, and he was tooling around in a car like that??!! WTF? I wouldn't get started on his plane,or motorcycles. It seemed to me that the people at the top lived like Kings, but the rest of us lived on a much lower scale.
Oh man! I am (positively) overwhelmed, Skyrider, as I read these personal accounts of you and your family while in twi. I am finding myself experiencing so many personal memories of my own as I read your perspectives. What is happening mainly, though, is a really healthy and cathartic feeling of deep understanding within myself about my own time in twi. I am feeling a personal sense of liberation with every new bit of understanding that seems to come to me as I read your words! It's really a bit difficult to describe ... but the overwhelming result is a pure, positive catharsis!
Thank you soooo very much for your generosity of spirit to take the time to share these personal recollections and experiences. Your sharing them is having a deep and positive impact on me. I feel so grateful to you!
Yes, I feel it also! Wow, the struggles that so many leaders on the field went through during their time in TWI, was unknown to so many of us. Sky, I thought leadership got paid a certain amount of money, and didn't have to worry about paying their bills like us average believers. Obviously, I was wrong. I can't believe that HQ treated so many leaders like caca; I would have left much sooner than you and your wife did. But, I was/am single with no kids, so it was much easier for me to leave than someone with a family.
The more I think about my personal & family extrication from the cult......I almost feel like closing shop and ending the story here. ugh
Wow!! I can't wait to read about it. Sky, I know for many people in TWI, it was hard to walk away from it, but it wasn't for me. The Navy sent me to Italy in May of 1988, and I stopped attending Twig. When I came back to the USA two years later, I had no desire to attend any more TWI fellowships. I realize that it wasn't that easy for many others involved in TWI. I found out years later, that many people had a very difficult time getting out for a variety of reasons.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for writing your story here, Skyrider. So many of us can relate to the pain you went through, the turmoil, the confusion and loss. But you are brave. You are a survivor. You are dear to us.
Yes you are!! Again Sky, thanks for sharing all that you, and your family went through. All that time, and work for TWI, and they treat you like caca!! Sky, what really makes me angry is that you, and your wife worked for them for decades, and they never gave you a pension, or a retirement plan, or anything like that. I think that sucks!!! I was in the Navy for five years, and it took 22 years for my Disability Benefits to kick in, but they finally kicked in. No wonder why TWI has a hard time getting people to work for them. They pay you peanuts, and then kick you to the curb when you retire. A lot of people in my Twig wanted me to go Corps after I finished the AC in 1985, but I knew it wasn't for me. I choose to join the Navy, and I'm glad I did.
IMO...............that's why when some drive-by posters come here to GSC and pop off
They have NO IDEA.....the secret, driving, under-belly scum of that cult-organization. NONE.
They extrapolate their opinions and view points from the cult-magazine echo chamber.
There is a HUGE difference between:
Extraction........getting out relatively easy and walking away from a cult.
Extrication.......the grasping, sucking tentacles of the octopus in deep waters.
THAT'S WHY......GSC is so damn important !!!!!
All of you posters are so special.
Your depth of thinking, exposure, and support.......HELPING so many, many people.
I sometimes think that GSC and your/our efforts....has helped at least 10 thousand or more.
Hell........even those who never were in......have expressed thanks.
YOU POSTERS.................ROCK and kick-a$$.
........THANKS.
Insert: Anyone who was/is on the outskirts of twi.....or simply took a couple of classes......has NO IDEA about this cult. Extrication is so intricately interwoven into every fabric of one's heart, soul, emotions, relationships, memories, fiber of being, approval before God......that to get out is an arduous process. Wierwille AND martindale strictly taught that to leave twi........was to leave God.
Sure, it's laughable now......but to those who exit AND those still in.................it is very real.
Edit: More properly stated......"The FEAR of extrication" is so intricately interwoven..........twi-cult indoctrination taught that to turn your back on twi was, to turn away from God.
Sky, now I can understand why so many people stayed, when they really wanted to leave. I never understood that before, but now I do. Thank you for sharing with the readers of GSC, how hard it was for you, and your family to leave. I never realized how complicated it was for some people to leave, while others just left.
Insert: Anyone who was/is on the outskirts of twi.....or simply took a couple of classes......has NO IDEA about this cult. Extricationis so intricately interwoven into every fabric of one's heart, soul, emotions, relationships, memories, fiber of being, approval before God......that to get out is an arduous process. Wierwille AND martindale strictly taught that to leave twi........was to leave God.
Sure, it's laughable now......but to those who exit AND those still in.................it is very real.
This is why I've so often said that it's not about doctrinal issues, such as 4 crucified or cry of triumph or figures of speech or whatever else we focused on. It was about a crazy lifestyle we lived that sometimes escaped the attention of those fortunate people who only remained involved at a local level.
That was me. I was busy living my life, and didn't want to be any type of leader. From what I have read here at the GSC, so many people were so scared by their experiences, I wonder if they will ever recovery from them. One woman described how she was sexually abused by VPW, and it made me cry, and cry. Never in this lifetime, will I understand how "Godly" men could do S--t like that to so many of their Sisters in Christ. I believe that if VPW, and others of his ilk, were still alive, they would be sent to prison for their evil deeds.
WARNING: The words cannot be unread......the visual imagery cannot be unseen.
I just read most of them. Insanity on steroids is an appropriate name. While I did experience the dining room rules when I was at the advanced class, I really didn't think much of it. But reading it a moment ago I was thinking how completely anal and absurd it all was! I can't put my napkin on my lap until the table coordinator does?!?!
I just read most of them. Insanity on steroids is an appropriate name. While I did experience the dining room rules when I was at the advanced class, I really didn't think much of it. But reading it a moment ago I was thinking how completely anal and absurd it all was! I can't put my napkin on my lap until the table coordinator does?!?!
Of course they're anal and absurd. BUT they (the words indicating that turning away from Wierwille or Martindale equate to turning away from God) ARE the unavoidable end result of your fanciful doctrine of losing salvation. And people will (and have) end(ed) up in a conundrum unrelated to whether they actually intended to turn away from God.
Of course they're anal and absurd. BUT they (the words indicating that turning away from Wierwille or Martindale equate to turning away from God) ARE the unavoidable end result of your fanciful doctrine of losing salvation. And people will (and have) end(ed) up in a conundrum unrelated to whether they actually intended to turn away from God.
You mean, something like this?
Step 1. "You can lose your salvation. Stay faithful to God."
Step 2. "We can help you stay faithful to God. We can guide you safely."
Step 3. "You're in danger of losing your salvation. Follow our guidance and you'll be safe."
Step 4. "You'll lose your salvation unless you do what we say."
Step 5. "Do what we say, or we'll kick you out, and you'll have no guidance to keep your salvation, and you'll lose it. All because you disobeyed us."
It didn't take twi long to reach Step 5. Took a different path to get there, but the rhetoric was the same. Do what we say, or we kick you out and God discards you.
Step 1. "You can lose your salvation. Stay faithful to God."
Step 2. "We can help you stay faithful to God. We can guide you safely."
Step 3. "You're in danger of losing your salvation. Follow our guidance and you'll be safe."
Step 4. "You'll lose your salvation unless you do what we say."
Step 5. "Do what we say, or we'll kick you out, and you'll have no guidance to keep your salvation, and you'll lose it. All because you disobeyed us."
It didn't take twi long to reach Step 5. Took a different path to get there, but the rhetoric was the same. Do what we say, or we kick you out and God discards you.
Arrogant little ba$tard$ aren't they! They make up their little rules and if you don't follow them and do what they say Almighty God will drop kick you into the abyss.
I just read most of them. Insanity on steroids is an appropriate name. While I did experience the dining room rules when I was at the advanced class, I really didn't think much of it. But reading it a moment ago I was thinking how completely anal and absurd it all was! I can't put my napkin on my lap until the table coordinator does?!?!
The anal spectrometry of the dining rules alone far eclipses this description of coordinating napkins. There is an entire dance. Let me regale you about the time I forgot to put my knife down while taking a bite. Very traumatic experience. Also, wanting to correct my mother who grew up passing food around the table via Betty Crocker / Dear Abby and either way is fine. Oh no. Not correct according to proper Christian etiquette. It must only go one way.
Then there is a sub-category of dining rules to do with the head table. Only certain select server-girls are qualified enough to deal with this level of Christian etiquette. This is the group that invented breaking lifesaver mints in half. But curiously enough no males ever served in this capacity. Only cute girls, possibly of the rating that could warrant a coach invite. It looks transparent now - then not so much.
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higherground30
Skyrider Thank you very much for sharing these hardhitting personal life stories. Im ready to give my background in the next couple of days in the new member area Oh and btw Happy new year
skyrider
The Pregnancy Policy What kind of board of directors legislates pregnancy policy to their employees? Forget diving into all the details......what gives them the right to insert when a couple s
potato
skyrider, thanks for sharing all of this. 1989 was the year TWI sucked me in, although I'd taken PFAL in 1985. I was advanced class grad twice over by mid-90s, and the later 90s were such a nightmare.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-bone, I know how you feel!! Back when I was in TWI, I was an azzhole also! The love of God really did cover me during the 10 years I spent in TWI, thank God. Now days, I live and let live. I don't force my opinions on anyone; and that includes politics, and religion.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes Sky, thank you! So much of this happened after I left in 1988. Now, I understand some of went on in Way World. So much garbage happened to people who often didn't deserve it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
I remember JCOPS; what a great book!! And you are right Sky; it was a big deal in TWI! Poor VPW; I knew when I read it, that he didn't have anything to do with it. It was so well-written, it had to have been written by smart, talented people, which VPW wasn't.
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T-Bone
Hi Grace VC - I always look forward to when you're on a posting spree - I appreciate your input.
Tonto and I are re-watching The Office - we're up to season 4; the relationship between Michael and Jan is so funny and interesting too! It reminds me of us - we both have issues - but unlike Michael I try to not be so oblivious to my weirdness; often as another way of saying I love you to each other one of us will say " thanks for putting up with me." Acceptance
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, years ago I heard VPW go off on a reporter. Wow, was I shocked! I was new in the word, but thought VPW handled the situation quite poorly. I thought VPW should have asked the reporter, in a nice way to leave. Instead, VPW had him kicked-out. I thought VPW looked like an azzhole.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Lani, that is so true!! When I think about my time in TWI, I realize now that I was fed a lot of bullsheet. I spent 10 years listening to a lot of garbage, and then wondered why so many of my prayers went unanswered. I was so young, and stupid. Nowadays, I am very careful about how I spend my time, and who I give money too.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, thank you for all of your information about TWI. I really had no idea how much sheet believers had to deal with during Craig's reign of terror. I keep asking myself why I stayed in TWI long after I should have left. I thought in time, TWI would get it's sheet together. Obviously, I was wrong; things went downhill after I left.
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Grace Valerie Claire
And me personally!! Rocky, when I got in TWI back in 1978, it was great! We had great fellowships, and fun together as believers. However, things really started to change around 1980-1981. Instead of having loving fellowships, it seemed to me that there was a big push to run classes, and send people out WOW, or have them go Corps. The bottom line in my view, was money. God forbid you have a normal life; you know, go to college and/ or work. No, no, no!! Push those classes, no matter what! I got sick of it, and pulled back. I still attended Twig, but I had a personal life also. I was never a big wheel in TWI, nor did I want to be. I wanted a life.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes Sky, thanks!! I was out of TWI by then, and didn't know most of the garbage that went on in TWI after I left. I am thankful that I left when I did.
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skyrider
Grace........I appreciate your kind words.
There are so many AWESOME posters here at The Spot. The accumulative unveiling of "the other side of the twit-cult" has been going on for like 17 years.........and, imo, it has exposed their seedy, sordid underbelly. Wierwille was a shyster and a predator........and those splinter groups are two-fold the children of the corn.
Long live GreaseSpot...........where us patrons celebrate LIFE.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes honey, you are so right!! I did not know the seedy side of TWI, until I came to the GSC. If I had known, really known all the sheet that happened in Way World, I would have left much sooner.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, another great post! I also noticed that the BOD, and VPW lived much better than the average Way person. I remember the 1978(?) Gray Lincoln Continental that VPW used to ride around in. Holy Moly, I could barely afford to pay my rent, and other bills, and he was tooling around in a car like that??!! WTF? I wouldn't get started on his plane,or motorcycles. It seemed to me that the people at the top lived like Kings, but the rest of us lived on a much lower scale.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, I think many of us feel the same way. I know I do.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes, I feel it also! Wow, the struggles that so many leaders on the field went through during their time in TWI, was unknown to so many of us. Sky, I thought leadership got paid a certain amount of money, and didn't have to worry about paying their bills like us average believers. Obviously, I was wrong. I can't believe that HQ treated so many leaders like caca; I would have left much sooner than you and your wife did. But, I was/am single with no kids, so it was much easier for me to leave than someone with a family.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Wow!! I can't wait to read about it. Sky, I know for many people in TWI, it was hard to walk away from it, but it wasn't for me. The Navy sent me to Italy in May of 1988, and I stopped attending Twig. When I came back to the USA two years later, I had no desire to attend any more TWI fellowships. I realize that it wasn't that easy for many others involved in TWI. I found out years later, that many people had a very difficult time getting out for a variety of reasons.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes you are!! Again Sky, thanks for sharing all that you, and your family went through. All that time, and work for TWI, and they treat you like caca!! Sky, what really makes me angry is that you, and your wife worked for them for decades, and they never gave you a pension, or a retirement plan, or anything like that. I think that sucks!!! I was in the Navy for five years, and it took 22 years for my Disability Benefits to kick in, but they finally kicked in. No wonder why TWI has a hard time getting people to work for them. They pay you peanuts, and then kick you to the curb when you retire. A lot of people in my Twig wanted me to go Corps after I finished the AC in 1985, but I knew it wasn't for me. I choose to join the Navy, and I'm glad I did.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, now I can understand why so many people stayed, when they really wanted to leave. I never understood that before, but now I do. Thank you for sharing with the readers of GSC, how hard it was for you, and your family to leave. I never realized how complicated it was for some people to leave, while others just left.
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Grace Valerie Claire
That was me. I was busy living my life, and didn't want to be any type of leader. From what I have read here at the GSC, so many people were so scared by their experiences, I wonder if they will ever recovery from them. One woman described how she was sexually abused by VPW, and it made me cry, and cry. Never in this lifetime, will I understand how "Godly" men could do S--t like that to so many of their Sisters in Christ. I believe that if VPW, and others of his ilk, were still alive, they would be sent to prison for their evil deeds.
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Taxidev
I just read most of them. Insanity on steroids is an appropriate name. While I did experience the dining room rules when I was at the advanced class, I really didn't think much of it. But reading it a moment ago I was thinking how completely anal and absurd it all was! I can't put my napkin on my lap until the table coordinator does?!?!
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Rocky
Of course they're anal and absurd. BUT they (the words indicating that turning away from Wierwille or Martindale equate to turning away from God) ARE the unavoidable end result of your fanciful doctrine of losing salvation. And people will (and have) end(ed) up in a conundrum unrelated to whether they actually intended to turn away from God.
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WordWolf
You mean, something like this?
Step 1. "You can lose your salvation. Stay faithful to God."
Step 2. "We can help you stay faithful to God. We can guide you safely."
Step 3. "You're in danger of losing your salvation. Follow our guidance and you'll be safe."
Step 4. "You'll lose your salvation unless you do what we say."
Step 5. "Do what we say, or we'll kick you out, and you'll have no guidance to keep your salvation, and you'll lose it. All because you disobeyed us."
It didn't take twi long to reach Step 5. Took a different path to get there, but the rhetoric was the same. Do what we say, or we kick you out and God discards you.
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Rocky
Yup.
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krys
Arrogant little ba$tard$ aren't they! They make up their little rules and if you don't follow them and do what they say Almighty God will drop kick you into the abyss.
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chockfull
The anal spectrometry of the dining rules alone far eclipses this description of coordinating napkins. There is an entire dance. Let me regale you about the time I forgot to put my knife down while taking a bite. Very traumatic experience. Also, wanting to correct my mother who grew up passing food around the table via Betty Crocker / Dear Abby and either way is fine. Oh no. Not correct according to proper Christian etiquette. It must only go one way.
Then there is a sub-category of dining rules to do with the head table. Only certain select server-girls are qualified enough to deal with this level of Christian etiquette. This is the group that invented breaking lifesaver mints in half. But curiously enough no males ever served in this capacity. Only cute girls, possibly of the rating that could warrant a coach invite. It looks transparent now - then not so much.
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