Just a side note: The reason some people might find it offensive is because it's not a "lifestyle" any more than being heterosexual is a lifestyle. It's just one element of the individual's whole makeup. If we said a person lives a heterosexual lifestyle, what would that even really mean? Not all heterosexuals live the same lifestyle nor do all homosexuals live the same lifestyle.
This is not directed at any one person. I'm only pointing it out because using it in this manner can cause the listener to disengage. Well, at least that's been my experience.
Not for a New York minute do I think your side note is "just a side note." It's a concerted effort to be PC. I think the problem that some folk seem to be having with the use of the word "lifestyle" is more that it inherently implies a choice. And the current PC way of speaking is to accept that it's genetic, and that they really don't have a choice. (Which is BS, but that's another matter sure to gender strife and division here.) But, if you want to be sure and be (or stay) PC, then here's a little help from GLAAD as to what words and phrases should and shouldn't be used. (Oh, and be sure to note the cute little add that pops up when you visit their site.)
Death is a choice. We die when we quit believing to live.
Childhood is genetic. But children CHOOSE to act like children. And the rod must fix that.
Bull crud bull crud bull crud
TLC you a diverting from the idea TWI believed there is an absolute right and perfect choice in every second of every mundane situation. Labeling any one choice as a fault allowed them to dismiss all following actions and consequence and assign blame when no fault was even necessary.
Nope. Not an effort to be PC on my part. Anyone who knows me in real life knows I don't give a rat's azz about being PC.(Nor did I reference any connection to genetics.) Through the years I have had many friends and coworkers that are either homosexual or transgender. I can assure you they did not all live the same "lifestyle". Ask yourself the question, "What is the heterosexual lifestyle?" There is no answer. Some live a sports centered lifestyle. Some live a music centered lifestyle. Some live a technology centered lifestyle and on and on and on.
If someone is heterosexual, it simply means that their sexual attraction is directed at the opposite sex. If they are homosexual, their sexual attraction is directed toward the same sex. People aren't cured of their attraction. They just learn how to repress and deny it. (Think celibacy.)
Don't even throw the old devil possession schtick in the mix. We'll be here forever with that one.
w/r to PC - political correctness, I personally just feel that more understanding and leeway needs to be given in the areas of identity and attraction. Scientific evidence has shown developmentally that this shows up as early as 6 to 10 years old. And this is shown to be independent of the views and orientation of the parents.
That speaks more loudly to me than ignorance with a vein popping out their neck.
This leaves the WAP class "research". To me any kind of a New Testament Grace based God is not congruent with a Father that would inflict a cruel trick on someone by creating them with genetic conflicts in identity and attraction to struggle with that places them on a tightrope of teetering over a precipice of being worthy of being executed.
Don't know why the Levitical laws would be as such, but there is a lot of wacky stuff in that book with respect to laws.
Those are my views, and whether or not they are PC I have not given one iota of thought.
I don't mean to derail sky's thread here - but it's happening I think because the Homo Purges were a big part of this time period. Coming to grips with this topic is probably a big deal.
I don't mean to derail sky's thread here - but it's happening I think because the Homo Purges were a big part of this time period. Coming to grips with this topic is probably a big deal.
Yeah......but ALL of the purges imposed exclusionary "search and eliminate" missions, didn't they?
Debt Purge......it hurt, altered, or eliminated one's desire for home ownership when housing market and purchase desire converged
Corps Spouse Purge.....think about all those marriages that were conflicted or damaged from wierwille/martindale bullsh!t mandates
Destructive/Harassing/Non-productive Purge....remember martindale's tirade on corps nights/ sts? What kind of evil resides at hq
Full-time Corps Purge.....many corps did NOT want to be on twi's payroll; they wanted to keep secular jobs and STILL be active corps
Bum's Rush Purge......corps girls, wives AND husbands that were thrown out because of vpw/lcm sexual predation
Homo Purge.......and yes, this purging that started surfacing around 1977, or thereabouts
ALL these purges were destructive and deeply personal to those involved. Lives were ruined; desires were shattered; futures were destroyed.
Prior to this 1989-1998 Timeline: When Geer came forward to read "The Passing of a Patriarch" at corps week in 1986......the first 30 minutes were so filled with arrogant bloviating that I found it hard to hear the rest. Lots of arrows were slung at Craig, Don, and Howard (trustees), and no accountability on wierwille's failures. None. Once again, wierwille was placed on this gold-plated pedestal of infallibility. And.......by this time (as documented in this thread), I'd already had THREE major encounters that seriously called into question wierwille's mog-hood. Geer told us that all the corps had failed Dr. Wierwille. I wasn't buying it for one nanosecond.
Besides.......Chris Geer was in the 7th corps, my elder corps. He was assigned "faculty" (cough, cough) and taught a couple of classes to the in-residence corps. One class session, he taught on in-depth study of the scriptures.....and he made it clear that he and Barb, his wife, took every opportunity available to go to the campus library and listen and catalogue every sunday and corps teaching tape that wierwille ever taught. How could you even call yourselves way corps if you didn't do this? The guy was the most glassy-eyed, wierwille-zealot that ever passed thru the corps program, hands down! He was condescending and mean-spirited.
So, no.....when "The Patriarch" paper was read, I knew that I was not going to follow the geer camp anytime soon.
Not for a New York minute do I think your side note is "just a side note." It's a concerted effort to be PC. I think the problem that some folk seem to be having with the use of the word "lifestyle" is more that it inherently implies a choice. And the current PC way of speaking is to accept that it's genetic, and that they really don't have a choice. (Which is BS, but that's another matter sure to gender strife and division here.) But, if you want to be sure and be (or stay) PC, then here's a little help from GLAAD as to what words and phrases should and shouldn't be used. (Oh, and be sure to note the cute little add that pops up when you visit their site.)
Thank you SO much for verifying my read of your inherently judgmental comment. "PC" as you use it seems to be nothing more than an excuse to label -- those who treat individuals as actual people who are worthy of dignity -- so that you can continue to justify, puff up your chest and feel righteous in judging them.
That's bothersome.
This might seem like a tangent and off topic, but it really illustrates quite well the underlying insanity (social mores) of the time frame that is the subject of this thread. Outside of religious dogmatism, those mores have changed.
Your post seems also to validate the irritation DWBH has expressed toward other comments you've made which have been read as efforts to justify the teachings and practices of our "dear leader" VeePee and his loyal sycophant Loy C Martindale.
You're as clueless as they come, Rocky, about who I am, how I think, or what motive resides within me. But in your haste to criticize, you project the very traits that you loathe in others. Fact is, at a time when TWI was (as pronounced here) purging these unwanted souls from within, the fellowship at my house was attended regularly by a husband and wife (male and female) that held back no secret of his homosexuality. It's one thing to say what bothers you, Rocky. It's quite another to sit down and regularly talk face to face with someone and try to understand who they are, and want to find meaningful, sensible ways to help them improve their relationship with God, and with each other. Try it sometime, and see just how easy (or not) it really is.
You're as clueless as they come, Rocky, about who I am, how I think, or what motive resides within me. But in your haste to criticize, you project the very traits that you loathe in others. Fact is, at a time when TWI was (as pronounced here) purging these unwanted souls from within, the fellowship at my house was attended regularly by a husband and wife (male and female) that held back no secret of his homosexuality. It's one thing to say what bothers you, Rocky. It's quite another to sit down and regularly talk face to face with someone and try to understand who they are, and want to find meaningful, sensible ways to help them improve their relationship with God, and with each other. Try it sometime, and see just how easy (or not) it really is.
I'm curious, did any of those "meaningful, sensible ways to help them improve their relationship with God" include any form of renouncing who he found himself attracted to?
I talk with LGBTQ people frequently. I don't presume to know better than they themselves whether they should renounce their identity or to whom they find themselves attracted.
I know what projecting is. How sure are you that it applies to me in this situation?
Further, nowhere in my previous comments have I supposed to know or infer anything about you other than to critically assess your words. Read those comments carefully (critical thinking and analysis) and you should be able to tell the difference.
If you disagree, by all means, (in a PM, rather than derail this thread) let me know specifically where I've erred.
In the meantime, as it applies to the subject of this thread, TWI (as an organization/sub-culture), wierwille and martindale (and many more) had serious deficiencies in social and emotional intelligence including but not limited to failing to recognize and/or respect personal boundaries. I'm not projecting here. I'm reflecting back on my history and experience. I can say with confidence that it took me too long after leaving TWI to learn about and begin respecting said personal boundaries. I have forgiven myself. Those problems caused relationship problems for me, some of which have since healed.
I maintain that deficiencies in social and emotional intelligence in TWI are why we are here on GSC. If wierwille hadn't been such a psychological basket case, it's likely that the organization he started (if he still would have started it) would not have been quite as problematic (insane).
Before martindale pushed the level to Insanity on Steroids........there still was "insanity" at headquarters. Okay, maybe "insanity" is a bit much.....but think about this: Why was the research department being marginalized, purged and under constant assault by wierwille?
If the way ministry was truly (cough, cough) a "Research, Teaching, and Fellowship" ministry........why the purge?
When I was on hq-staff in the time frame of 1979-1984.....the research department was A BIG DEAL. Not sure when "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was released, but the research department held some of the "spiritual heavyweights" at hq. When any of these men and women walked the halls of the OSC.....they were highly respected [by me, for sure]. The buzz of this "new research" JCOPS was in the air. And, if I remember correctly, there was a time or two when one of the research guys sat next to wierwille (or walter) ON CORPS NIGHT.....as they broke new ground and taught it to the corps.
Specific teachings were even inserted for corps and staff......."The Bethlehem Star." Heck, with the unveiling of this new book and research....even wierwille had to acknowledge and pay tribute to THE RESEARCH TEAM publically, and in the book. At this time, even wierwille could NOT hog all the praise and accolades.
Later, in 1983.....wierwille was gearing up for "Harmony of the Gospels" to be taught at Sound Out '84 in Nashville. Once again, several on the research team were highly instrumental in all of this. I'm sure there are some posters here at GSC that know MUCH MORE about these specifics that I do.....but my point is that Biblical Truth, as best we knew, was what carried the zeal. At least, it was for me.
And, the GMIR articles in The Way magazine.....good stuff. Some of these in-depth topics were written by corps grads in Chicago....working on master's & doctorate degrees. From 1979-1985......was the pinnacle of new research coming forth. And, added to this -- the Aramaic work by Charlene as detailed in Undertow. Yet, some of the great talent and minds were leaving twi.
Why did twi systematically PURGE the research department?
The best part of the magazine- and we knew it on the field- was the GMIR articles. Those stopped completely when lcm drew his "line in the sand" at HQ, and, apparently, nobody qualified to write the articles fell on their faces before him to worship his as-inine self-image. So, the section went permanently missing.
It looked like the entire Research Dept walked off-or were kicked out. Magazines after that were HEAVY on FILLER- lots of HUGE images, LOTS of photos, nice, big print. You could squeeze the actual content of an entire magazine into a few pages in a small font- and even less if you skipped the articles that were stealth advertisements-
with all the competent people walking off, twi kept trying to trick people into showing up and replacing them. A talk on "Word in Culture" was ENTIRELY about "how to write an article for the magazine", and articles on the programs were all oriented towards encouraging applications at the end of the article.
I'm curious, did any of those "meaningful, sensible ways to help them improve their relationship with God" include any form of renouncing who he found himself attracted to?
I talk with LGBTQ people frequently. I don't presume to know better than they themselves whether they should renounce their identity or to whom they find themselves attracted.
So what if you talk with LGBTQ people frequently now (and I don't.) But how much did you 25-30 years ago (before this PC era) when they themselves referred to their "lifestyle"? And if memory serves me correctly, Cra1ey himself spoke openly of it as being that on more than one occasion. Maybe I date myself with what I say (or said), but there was a time (years ago, evidently) when they relished their... what should I call it... network, to the point that if you wanted to advance within certain companies to positions of higher pay or prominence, you'd better be on board (regardless of your other qualifications.) Think that's really changed in the last 25 years, do you?
I don't know... maybe the editorial review of Cra1ey's book on Amazon will also "bug the hell out of you" when it refers to "his former lifestyle."
And btw, perhaps we (my wife and I) were never as drawn into the subcultural demons of TWI as you seem to have been to think that anyone needed to be pushed or manipulated into "renouncing" anything.
The best part of the magazine- and we knew it on the field- was the GMIR articles. Those stopped completely when lcm drew his "line in the sand" at HQ, and, apparently, nobody qualified to write the articles fell on their faces before him to worship his as-inine self-image. So, the section went permanently missing.
It looked like the entire Research Dept walked off-or were kicked out. Magazines after that were HEAVY on FILLER- lots of HUGE images, LOTS of photos, nice, big print. You could squeeze the actual content of an entire magazine into a few pages in a small font- and even less if you skipped the articles that were stealth advertisements-
with all the competent people walking off, twi kept trying to trick people into showing up and replacing them. A talk on "Word in Culture" was ENTIRELY about "how to write an article for the magazine", and articles on the programs were all oriented towards encouraging applications at the end of the article.
Yep.....martindale was a dickhead. Geer was a dickhead. And, wierwille was the dicktator of dickheads.
That whole period of time, 1979-86,....when competent, talented men and women were committed to biblical research marked a huge loss of opportunity. Some had committed 12-15 years of their lives to study skills, languages [Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic], masters/doctorates.......becoming of age AND surpassing wierwille's research skills (cough, cough)......and NOW WERE A THREAT TO WIERWILLE'S STATURE IN TWI.
The hemorrhaging AND purging on the research department started with wierwille.
So many good, talented people were putting distance between themselves and hq.
So what if you talk with LGBTQ people frequently now (and I don't.) But how much did you 25-30 years ago (before this PC era) when they themselves referred to their "lifestyle"? And if memory serves me correctly, Cra1ey himself spoke openly of it as being that on more than one occasion. Maybe I date myself with what I say (or said), but there was a time (years ago, evidently) when they relished their... what should I call it... network, to the point that if you wanted to advance within certain companies to positions of higher pay or prominence, you'd better be on board (regardless of your other qualifications.) Think that's really changed in the last 25 years, do you?
I don't know... maybe the editorial review of Cra1ey's book on Amazon will also "bug the hell out of you" when it refers to "his former lifestyle."
And btw, perhaps we (my wife and I) were never as drawn into the subcultural demons of TWI as you seem to have been to think that anyone needed to be pushed or manipulated into "renouncing" anything.
Why did twi systematically PURGE the research department?
Seems this may have started much earlier than is indicated by the time frame of this thread, sky. BTW, until reading some of your more recent postings, I sorta wondered why you held as much animosity against TWI as you do. Guess I didn't realize that you were involved as long as you were, or how far downhill and bad things really got in these 89-98 years. Most everyone I knew or had kind of contact with had left HQ or was out by then.
As for departures from the research dept., some of those with the rare combination of heart and ability had already left. Don't know much about where they are now, but B.Mahone and J.Wise rated high there, imo. (Dan M. had a more an intellectual approach, but didn't have the oversized ego that $choenheit had.)
Seems this may have started much earlier than is indicated by the time frame of this thread, sky. BTW, until reading some of your more recent postings, I sorta wondered why you held as much animosity against TWI as you do. Guess I didn't realize that you were involved as long as you were, or how far downhill and bad things really got in these 89-98 years. Most everyone I knew or had kind of contact with had left HQ or was out by then.
As for departures from the research dept., some of those with the rare combination of heart and ability had already left. Don't know much about where they are now, but B.Mahone and J.Wise rated high there, imo.
TLC......my postings are not about "animosity."
As I've posted countless times, I believe there is exponential value in exposing how people are manipulated and exploited. Twi had some "good elements" in it.....otherwise, it wouldn't have enticed good, solid people from all walks of life. And, the longer one stays.....the more intertwined everything becomes (i.e. commitments, friendships, goals, marriages, loss of opportunity to rebuild, more indoctrinated, etc.).
Waydale and GSC were very clear from the onset......"to tell the other side of the story." And WOW.....is there ever another side that wasn't told: sexual predation, adultery-romps, abortions, character-assassinations, bum's rush to girls that were raped, heavy-drinker wierwille, doctrines of error, research manipulation, etc.) Hundreds upon hundreds have come forward on GSC and thanked the posters for this twi-exposure. Years of hurt, guilt, shame, doubt, confusion.......WERE DISPELLED after reading about twi's underbelly of evil. It helped them to connect the dots......and mend the wounds.
What you frame as "animosity".......I deem mitigating. First of all, I love to write (have you noticed?). Secondly, in view of promoting wierwille and twi for a couple of decades, I felt that my integrity of heart should set the record straight having experienced the "throes of battle." Heck, even ex-scientologists or ex-Jehovah Witnesses go to their websites and documentaries to expose the ugly cult doctrines. Maybe it's seated in a moral goodness to help mankind.
TWI and the "Research Department". Penworks covers the early time period in "Undertow", If you want detailed perspectives on TWI and research, I think that "Undertow" for example is a better resource for TWI history on the research department than other historical TWI tomes - like for example Mrs. W's mostly picture book "Born Again to Serve", or the one they don't publish any more, El3na Wh1teside's "The Way Living in Love" with tales of snow and gas pumps..
What I remember about the research department is an anecdote told by K31th J@cks0n, the guy who was the Way mag editor for all of those years. He was working on an edition and called Da Forehead up to talk about GMIR. Forehead goes zero to screaming in a microsecond. "Don't ever bring up the word GMIR to me again". "It's just an ego trip". Click. Later he shares just how persecuted he was during da fog years, and how he just can't handle thinking about GMIR. Apparently it just had too much ego in it. Funny how struggling over getting more insight on a scripture interpretation was so laced with ego, starkly contrasted with prancing around in a pair of tights, which had absolutely no ego in it at all.
Forehead boy needs to make the "Research Department" his own. I believe his initial approach was to fire anyone smarter than him, or had any inkling of giving him any kind of argument on scripture interpretation. Thus, that amounts to exactly everybody in the department, except for Bern!ta.
What is replacing them during this entire time. Good buddy W@yn3. He answers all C's letters, works hand in hand with him on the book, and the new classes. And the greatest benefit is he didn't want recognition, like his name as a co-author on books or classes or anything. He is a one-man Research Department. Without the title. Without a job description. And doing it while being a Corps coordinator at Indiana for the Family Corps.
To bookend the "Research Department" the year 2000, how did all this pay off for W@yne? After Martindale is forced out by Rosie, her next step is to get rid of W@yne. She pulls some strings behind the scenes (as is her MO), and all of the sudden W@yne is bum rushed out, fired. Why? Apparently at HQ all staff has to participate in a rotation of doing "children's services" or a baby-sitting Co-op type of thing. W@yne being a bit absent-minded from his 2 jobs, misses a connection with a parent and a little kid sits outside his trailer unattended for a while. Parents raise a bit of a stink, and presto, the Fox has her ammo to purge. After getting fired, W@yne teams up with J0hn Shr0yer, they cruise down the road a bit in the Midwest, and form the offshoot splinter CFFM. This splinter was a little better than the rest, IMO, in that there were no "dueling revelations", Momentus adaptions, EST, or animatronics teaching tapes. They do still exist today - basically J0hn Shr0yer's daugther Tonia, talked W@yne into believing that her dad promised her he would leave her the ministry as somewhat of an inheritance type of concept, so she took over as President. How do you leave a ministry as an inheritance? K3v1n Guig0u and VP's youngest daughter Sara his wife work there too. They seem to have gravitated more to a small church type of concept, with "Pastors" and "Associate Pastors" like the mainstream Christianity terms. However they still have this organizational structure kind of like the Way Tree - with Zone Leaders, and State Contacts and the ilk. The main problem with them is the main problem with all splinter groups - Paul's words "the church is built on no other foundation except Jesus Christ". There is still so much foundation in splinters built upon a cult, and not Christ. From splinter groups' perspective, they took all the good things out of the Way, and removed all the bad things.
Except for that's impossible. And the old wineskin just continues to dangle around the neck being carried around, water leaking through it like a sieve. And the longer time passes the more the tree that emerged from planting all those splinter group seeds is going to turn up as a variation of a crababble tree.
Seems this may have started much earlier than is indicated by the time frame of this thread, sky. BTW, until reading some of your more recent postings, I sorta wondered why you held as much animosity against TWI as you do. Guess I didn't realize that you were involved as long as you were, or how far downhill and bad things really got in these 89-98 years. Most everyone I knew or had kind of contact with had left HQ or was out by then.
As I'm sure most have surmised, I was a young mushroom during this timeframe. Sitting silently in the dark and being fed, well, you know.
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Skyrider Thank you very much for sharing these hardhitting personal life stories. Im ready to give my background in the next couple of days in the new member area Oh and btw Happy new year
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waysider
Just a side note: The reason some people might find it offensive is because it's not a "lifestyle" any more than being heterosexual is a lifestyle. It's just one element of the individual's whole makeup. If we said a person lives a heterosexual lifestyle, what would that even really mean? Not all heterosexuals live the same lifestyle nor do all homosexuals live the same lifestyle.
This is not directed at any one person. I'm only pointing it out because using it in this manner can cause the listener to disengage. Well, at least that's been my experience.
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TLC
Not for a New York minute do I think your side note is "just a side note." It's a concerted effort to be PC. I think the problem that some folk seem to be having with the use of the word "lifestyle" is more that it inherently implies a choice. And the current PC way of speaking is to accept that it's genetic, and that they really don't have a choice. (Which is BS, but that's another matter sure to gender strife and division here.) But, if you want to be sure and be (or stay) PC, then here's a little help from GLAAD as to what words and phrases should and shouldn't be used. (Oh, and be sure to note the cute little add that pops up when you visit their site.)
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Bolshevik
PC my foot
Death is a choice. We die when we quit believing to live.
Childhood is genetic. But children CHOOSE to act like children. And the rod must fix that.
Bull crud bull crud bull crud
TLC you a diverting from the idea TWI believed there is an absolute right and perfect choice in every second of every mundane situation. Labeling any one choice as a fault allowed them to dismiss all following actions and consequence and assign blame when no fault was even necessary.
Red Herring.
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waysider
Nope. Not an effort to be PC on my part. Anyone who knows me in real life knows I don't give a rat's azz about being PC.(Nor did I reference any connection to genetics.) Through the years I have had many friends and coworkers that are either homosexual or transgender. I can assure you they did not all live the same "lifestyle". Ask yourself the question, "What is the heterosexual lifestyle?" There is no answer. Some live a sports centered lifestyle. Some live a music centered lifestyle. Some live a technology centered lifestyle and on and on and on.
If someone is heterosexual, it simply means that their sexual attraction is directed at the opposite sex. If they are homosexual, their sexual attraction is directed toward the same sex. People aren't cured of their attraction. They just learn how to repress and deny it. (Think celibacy.)
Don't even throw the old devil possession schtick in the mix. We'll be here forever with that one.
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chockfull
w/r to PC - political correctness, I personally just feel that more understanding and leeway needs to be given in the areas of identity and attraction. Scientific evidence has shown developmentally that this shows up as early as 6 to 10 years old. And this is shown to be independent of the views and orientation of the parents.
That speaks more loudly to me than ignorance with a vein popping out their neck.
This leaves the WAP class "research". To me any kind of a New Testament Grace based God is not congruent with a Father that would inflict a cruel trick on someone by creating them with genetic conflicts in identity and attraction to struggle with that places them on a tightrope of teetering over a precipice of being worthy of being executed.
Don't know why the Levitical laws would be as such, but there is a lot of wacky stuff in that book with respect to laws.
Those are my views, and whether or not they are PC I have not given one iota of thought.
I don't mean to derail sky's thread here - but it's happening I think because the Homo Purges were a big part of this time period. Coming to grips with this topic is probably a big deal.
.
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skyrider
Yeah......but ALL of the purges imposed exclusionary "search and eliminate" missions, didn't they?
ALL these purges were destructive and deeply personal to those involved. Lives were ruined; desires were shattered; futures were destroyed.
That's what cults do.
.
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skyrider
Prior to this 1989-1998 Timeline: When Geer came forward to read "The Passing of a Patriarch" at corps week in 1986......the first 30 minutes were so filled with arrogant bloviating that I found it hard to hear the rest. Lots of arrows were slung at Craig, Don, and Howard (trustees), and no accountability on wierwille's failures. None. Once again, wierwille was placed on this gold-plated pedestal of infallibility. And.......by this time (as documented in this thread), I'd already had THREE major encounters that seriously called into question wierwille's mog-hood. Geer told us that all the corps had failed Dr. Wierwille. I wasn't buying it for one nanosecond.
Here's what Geer's bloviating sounded like........The Way to Blunder Onward
Besides.......Chris Geer was in the 7th corps, my elder corps. He was assigned "faculty" (cough, cough) and taught a couple of classes to the in-residence corps. One class session, he taught on in-depth study of the scriptures.....and he made it clear that he and Barb, his wife, took every opportunity available to go to the campus library and listen and catalogue every sunday and corps teaching tape that wierwille ever taught. How could you even call yourselves way corps if you didn't do this? The guy was the most glassy-eyed, wierwille-zealot that ever passed thru the corps program, hands down! He was condescending and mean-spirited.
So, no.....when "The Patriarch" paper was read, I knew that I was not going to follow the geer camp anytime soon.
.
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Rocky
Thank you SO much for verifying my read of your inherently judgmental comment. "PC" as you use it seems to be nothing more than an excuse to label -- those who treat individuals as actual people who are worthy of dignity -- so that you can continue to justify, puff up your chest and feel righteous in judging them.
That's bothersome.
This might seem like a tangent and off topic, but it really illustrates quite well the underlying insanity (social mores) of the time frame that is the subject of this thread. Outside of religious dogmatism, those mores have changed.
Your post seems also to validate the irritation DWBH has expressed toward other comments you've made which have been read as efforts to justify the teachings and practices of our "dear leader" VeePee and his loyal sycophant Loy C Martindale.
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TLC
You're as clueless as they come, Rocky, about who I am, how I think, or what motive resides within me. But in your haste to criticize, you project the very traits that you loathe in others. Fact is, at a time when TWI was (as pronounced here) purging these unwanted souls from within, the fellowship at my house was attended regularly by a husband and wife (male and female) that held back no secret of his homosexuality. It's one thing to say what bothers you, Rocky. It's quite another to sit down and regularly talk face to face with someone and try to understand who they are, and want to find meaningful, sensible ways to help them improve their relationship with God, and with each other. Try it sometime, and see just how easy (or not) it really is.
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Rocky
I'm curious, did any of those "meaningful, sensible ways to help them improve their relationship with God" include any form of renouncing who he found himself attracted to?
I talk with LGBTQ people frequently. I don't presume to know better than they themselves whether they should renounce their identity or to whom they find themselves attracted.
I know what projecting is. How sure are you that it applies to me in this situation?
Further, nowhere in my previous comments have I supposed to know or infer anything about you other than to critically assess your words. Read those comments carefully (critical thinking and analysis) and you should be able to tell the difference.
If you disagree, by all means, (in a PM, rather than derail this thread) let me know specifically where I've erred.
In the meantime, as it applies to the subject of this thread, TWI (as an organization/sub-culture), wierwille and martindale (and many more) had serious deficiencies in social and emotional intelligence including but not limited to failing to recognize and/or respect personal boundaries. I'm not projecting here. I'm reflecting back on my history and experience. I can say with confidence that it took me too long after leaving TWI to learn about and begin respecting said personal boundaries. I have forgiven myself. Those problems caused relationship problems for me, some of which have since healed.
I maintain that deficiencies in social and emotional intelligence in TWI are why we are here on GSC. If wierwille hadn't been such a psychological basket case, it's likely that the organization he started (if he still would have started it) would not have been quite as problematic (insane).
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skyrider
Thanks, Rocky..........I appreciate that.
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skyrider
Before martindale pushed the level to Insanity on Steroids........there still was "insanity" at headquarters. Okay, maybe "insanity" is a bit much.....but think about this: Why was the research department being marginalized, purged and under constant assault by wierwille?
If the way ministry was truly (cough, cough) a "Research, Teaching, and Fellowship" ministry........why the purge?
When I was on hq-staff in the time frame of 1979-1984.....the research department was A BIG DEAL. Not sure when "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was released, but the research department held some of the "spiritual heavyweights" at hq. When any of these men and women walked the halls of the OSC.....they were highly respected [by me, for sure]. The buzz of this "new research" JCOPS was in the air. And, if I remember correctly, there was a time or two when one of the research guys sat next to wierwille (or walter) ON CORPS NIGHT.....as they broke new ground and taught it to the corps.
Specific teachings were even inserted for corps and staff......."The Bethlehem Star." Heck, with the unveiling of this new book and research....even wierwille had to acknowledge and pay tribute to THE RESEARCH TEAM publically, and in the book. At this time, even wierwille could NOT hog all the praise and accolades.
Later, in 1983.....wierwille was gearing up for "Harmony of the Gospels" to be taught at Sound Out '84 in Nashville. Once again, several on the research team were highly instrumental in all of this. I'm sure there are some posters here at GSC that know MUCH MORE about these specifics that I do.....but my point is that Biblical Truth, as best we knew, was what carried the zeal. At least, it was for me.
And, the GMIR articles in The Way magazine.....good stuff. Some of these in-depth topics were written by corps grads in Chicago....working on master's & doctorate degrees. From 1979-1985......was the pinnacle of new research coming forth. And, added to this -- the Aramaic work by Charlene as detailed in Undertow. Yet, some of the great talent and minds were leaving twi.
Why did twi systematically PURGE the research department?
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WordWolf
The best part of the magazine- and we knew it on the field- was the GMIR articles. Those stopped completely when lcm drew his "line in the sand" at HQ, and, apparently, nobody qualified to write the articles fell on their faces before him to worship his as-inine self-image. So, the section went permanently missing.
It looked like the entire Research Dept walked off-or were kicked out. Magazines after that were HEAVY on FILLER- lots of HUGE images, LOTS of photos, nice, big print. You could squeeze the actual content of an entire magazine into a few pages in a small font- and even less if you skipped the articles that were stealth advertisements-
with all the competent people walking off, twi kept trying to trick people into showing up and replacing them. A talk on "Word in Culture" was ENTIRELY about "how to write an article for the magazine", and articles on the programs were all oriented towards encouraging applications at the end of the article.
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TLC
So what if you talk with LGBTQ people frequently now (and I don't.) But how much did you 25-30 years ago (before this PC era) when they themselves referred to their "lifestyle"? And if memory serves me correctly, Cra1ey himself spoke openly of it as being that on more than one occasion. Maybe I date myself with what I say (or said), but there was a time (years ago, evidently) when they relished their... what should I call it... network, to the point that if you wanted to advance within certain companies to positions of higher pay or prominence, you'd better be on board (regardless of your other qualifications.) Think that's really changed in the last 25 years, do you?
I don't know... maybe the editorial review of Cra1ey's book on Amazon will also "bug the hell out of you" when it refers to "his former lifestyle."
And btw, perhaps we (my wife and I) were never as drawn into the subcultural demons of TWI as you seem to have been to think that anyone needed to be pushed or manipulated into "renouncing" anything.
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skyrider
Yep.....martindale was a dickhead. Geer was a dickhead. And, wierwille was the dicktator of dickheads.
That whole period of time, 1979-86,....when competent, talented men and women were committed to biblical research marked a huge loss of opportunity. Some had committed 12-15 years of their lives to study skills, languages [Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic], masters/doctorates.......becoming of age AND surpassing wierwille's research skills (cough, cough)......and NOW WERE A THREAT TO WIERWILLE'S STATURE IN TWI.
The hemorrhaging AND purging on the research department started with wierwille.
So many good, talented people were putting distance between themselves and hq.
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skyrider
TLC........start your own thread, please.
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TLC
Seems this may have started much earlier than is indicated by the time frame of this thread, sky. BTW, until reading some of your more recent postings, I sorta wondered why you held as much animosity against TWI as you do. Guess I didn't realize that you were involved as long as you were, or how far downhill and bad things really got in these 89-98 years. Most everyone I knew or had kind of contact with had left HQ or was out by then.
As for departures from the research dept., some of those with the rare combination of heart and ability had already left. Don't know much about where they are now, but B.Mahone and J.Wise rated high there, imo. (Dan M. had a more an intellectual approach, but didn't have the oversized ego that $choenheit had.)
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TLC
sorry, it drifted. but it's sure not worth a thread of it's own.
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skyrider
TLC......my postings are not about "animosity."
As I've posted countless times, I believe there is exponential value in exposing how people are manipulated and exploited. Twi had some "good elements" in it.....otherwise, it wouldn't have enticed good, solid people from all walks of life. And, the longer one stays.....the more intertwined everything becomes (i.e. commitments, friendships, goals, marriages, loss of opportunity to rebuild, more indoctrinated, etc.).
Waydale and GSC were very clear from the onset......"to tell the other side of the story." And WOW.....is there ever another side that wasn't told: sexual predation, adultery-romps, abortions, character-assassinations, bum's rush to girls that were raped, heavy-drinker wierwille, doctrines of error, research manipulation, etc.) Hundreds upon hundreds have come forward on GSC and thanked the posters for this twi-exposure. Years of hurt, guilt, shame, doubt, confusion.......WERE DISPELLED after reading about twi's underbelly of evil. It helped them to connect the dots......and mend the wounds.
What you frame as "animosity".......I deem mitigating. First of all, I love to write (have you noticed?). Secondly, in view of promoting wierwille and twi for a couple of decades, I felt that my integrity of heart should set the record straight having experienced the "throes of battle." Heck, even ex-scientologists or ex-Jehovah Witnesses go to their websites and documentaries to expose the ugly cult doctrines. Maybe it's seated in a moral goodness to help mankind.
.
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chockfull
TWI and the "Research Department". Penworks covers the early time period in "Undertow", If you want detailed perspectives on TWI and research, I think that "Undertow" for example is a better resource for TWI history on the research department than other historical TWI tomes - like for example Mrs. W's mostly picture book "Born Again to Serve", or the one they don't publish any more, El3na Wh1teside's "The Way Living in Love" with tales of snow and gas pumps..
What I remember about the research department is an anecdote told by K31th J@cks0n, the guy who was the Way mag editor for all of those years. He was working on an edition and called Da Forehead up to talk about GMIR. Forehead goes zero to screaming in a microsecond. "Don't ever bring up the word GMIR to me again". "It's just an ego trip". Click. Later he shares just how persecuted he was during da fog years, and how he just can't handle thinking about GMIR. Apparently it just had too much ego in it. Funny how struggling over getting more insight on a scripture interpretation was so laced with ego, starkly contrasted with prancing around in a pair of tights, which had absolutely no ego in it at all.
Forehead boy needs to make the "Research Department" his own. I believe his initial approach was to fire anyone smarter than him, or had any inkling of giving him any kind of argument on scripture interpretation. Thus, that amounts to exactly everybody in the department, except for Bern!ta.
What is replacing them during this entire time. Good buddy W@yn3. He answers all C's letters, works hand in hand with him on the book, and the new classes. And the greatest benefit is he didn't want recognition, like his name as a co-author on books or classes or anything. He is a one-man Research Department. Without the title. Without a job description. And doing it while being a Corps coordinator at Indiana for the Family Corps.
To bookend the "Research Department" the year 2000, how did all this pay off for W@yne? After Martindale is forced out by Rosie, her next step is to get rid of W@yne. She pulls some strings behind the scenes (as is her MO), and all of the sudden W@yne is bum rushed out, fired. Why? Apparently at HQ all staff has to participate in a rotation of doing "children's services" or a baby-sitting Co-op type of thing. W@yne being a bit absent-minded from his 2 jobs, misses a connection with a parent and a little kid sits outside his trailer unattended for a while. Parents raise a bit of a stink, and presto, the Fox has her ammo to purge. After getting fired, W@yne teams up with J0hn Shr0yer, they cruise down the road a bit in the Midwest, and form the offshoot splinter CFFM. This splinter was a little better than the rest, IMO, in that there were no "dueling revelations", Momentus adaptions, EST, or animatronics teaching tapes. They do still exist today - basically J0hn Shr0yer's daugther Tonia, talked W@yne into believing that her dad promised her he would leave her the ministry as somewhat of an inheritance type of concept, so she took over as President. How do you leave a ministry as an inheritance? K3v1n Guig0u and VP's youngest daughter Sara his wife work there too. They seem to have gravitated more to a small church type of concept, with "Pastors" and "Associate Pastors" like the mainstream Christianity terms. However they still have this organizational structure kind of like the Way Tree - with Zone Leaders, and State Contacts and the ilk. The main problem with them is the main problem with all splinter groups - Paul's words "the church is built on no other foundation except Jesus Christ". There is still so much foundation in splinters built upon a cult, and not Christ. From splinter groups' perspective, they took all the good things out of the Way, and removed all the bad things.
Except for that's impossible. And the old wineskin just continues to dangle around the neck being carried around, water leaking through it like a sieve. And the longer time passes the more the tree that emerged from planting all those splinter group seeds is going to turn up as a variation of a crababble tree.
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chockfull
As I'm sure most have surmised, I was a young mushroom during this timeframe. Sitting silently in the dark and being fed, well, you know.
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TLC
Fair enough, but consider that I was simply stating what it (and the passion of it) looks like.
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TLC
Early for you, perhaps. Not so much for others of us. There was a lot that already happened there before she refers to it in 84 (or maybe it was 83.)
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krys
Do you need your glasses checked?
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