I watched the first three episodes also Skyrider. Very compelling. Though specifics, jargon, doctrine, and social structure differ, the psychodynamic of all totalist cults is the same. Simply change names, locations, and intimidation styles, and you can place one cult after another in this series' lineup and the chilling similarities will ring true for all those ever involved in any type of cult. I applaud Lisa for having the balls to do this, and the strength to get former leaders to tell the truth. THAT aspect of her series is totally missing from ex-way leadership IMO. Instead of standing up and exposing the lies, crimes, and misdemeanors committed by wierwille et al, most of these high profile former cult leaders simply ignore them and start their own cults in the name of honest reform and teaching da woid. They are liars, pimps and whores IMO.
Where are the following on Greasespot?
John Lynn, Gerald Wrenn, Vince Finnegan, Bo Reahard, Walter Cummins, Bruce Mahone, John Crouch, Ken Brown, John Townsend, Ricardo Caballero, Earl Burton, Art Poling, Larry Panarello, Tom and Barbara Kally, Michael Fort, Bill and Marsha Greene, Harvey Platig, Claudettee Royal, Bob Winegarner, Bill Winegarner, Gary Curtis, Randy Anderson, George Hendley, Tom Jenkinson, Bruce Mahone, John Schoenheit, Brian and Alison Heaney, Duke Clarke, Randy Feese, Barry Jones, Tim Bishop, Alan Licht, Dale Sides, Michael Rood, Franklin Smith, Doug Seed, Chuck LaMattina, Charlie Quillen, Doug MacMullan, Paul Metkel, David Turk, Wayne Merrill, Steve Sann, Jerry Carr, Terry Wilson, Bob Lindfelt, Maurice Goulet, Dave Standage, Mosqueda, Lewis Lind, Koetteritz, and on and on and on.
There are as many wayfers and ex-way "leadership" with blood on their hands and stolen money in their pickets as there are Scientoligists and Moonies. Looking forward to the day they all come clean and finally tell the truth about TWIt and themselves. Don't hold your breath!
I watched the first three episodes also Skyrider. Very compelling. Though specifics, jargon, doctrine, and social structure differ, the psychodynamic of all totalist cults is the same. Simply change names, locations, and intimidation styles, and you can place one cult after another in this series' lineup and the chilling similarities will ring true for all those ever involved in any type of cult. I applaud Lisa for having the balls to do this, and the strength to get former leaders to tell the truth. THAT aspect of her series is totally missing from ex-way leadership IMO. Instead of standing up and exposing the lies, crimes, and misdemeanors committed by wierwille et al, most of these high profile former cult leaders simply ignore them and start their own cults in the name of honest reform and teaching da woid. They are liars, pimps and whores IMO.
Where are the following on Greasespot?
John Lynn, Gerald Wrenn, Vince Finnegan, Bo Reahard, Walter Cummins, Bruce Mahone, John Crouch, Ken Brown, John Townsend, Ricardo Caballero, Earl Burton, Art Poling, Larry Panarello, Tom and Barbara Kally, Michael Fort, Bill and Marsha Greene, Harvey Platig, Claudettee Royal, Bob Winegarner, Bill Winegarner, Gary Curtis, Randy Anderson, George Hendley, Tom Jenkinson, Bruce Mahone, John Schoenheit, Brian and Alison Heaney, Duke Clarke, Randy Feese, Barry Jones, Tim Bishop, Alan Licht, Dale Sides, Michael Rood, Franklin Smith, Doug Seed, Chuck LaMattina, Charlie Quillen, Doug MacMullan, Paul Metkel, David Turk, Wayne Merrill, Steve Sann, Jerry Carr, Terry Wilson, Bob Lindfelt, Maurice Goulet, Dave Standage, Mosqueda, Lewis Lind, Koetteritz, and on and on and on.
There are as many wayfers and ex-way "leadership" with blood on their hands and stolen money in their pickets as there are Scientoligists and Moonies. Looking forward to the day they all come clean and finally tell the truth about TWIt and themselves. Don't hold your breath!
EXACTLY........where are these former twi-leaders?
The dearth of these "ex-wayers" to come clean is stunning. Do they STILL agree with wierwille and his doctrines? Are they STILL complicit in the mlm-pyramid to funnel all monies to their splinter groups.....thus, amplifying their own side-ministries-of-pfal-nostalgia?
I still have my 1985 Clergy Listing from twi.......and to SEE ALL THE NAMES WHO'VE EXITED is striking!! So many who were in major positions of authority are NOW running their own little group of way-daze followers. Obviously, its their means, for most, of livelihood......having no other skill sets or advanced education. I just thought that there'd be a dozen or more of this group that would have exposed wierwille, his sexual predation and skewed doctrines. Sometimes, I wonder........perhaps, twi has some blackmail material locked away on some of these splinter guys and have threatened them to STAY QUIET.
Thankfully, men like you DWBH......have the balls to speak out and dismantle the wierwille mystique and twi's twisted history.
Yeah......the jargon of all totalitarian cults is a psychodynamic extension of their own warped clusterfest. The buzzwords, the newspeak is designed to mystify, to intrigue, to separate and exclude those from the inner sanctum of this closed society. With each class, each program......one is more deeply indoctrinated into this fringe element of "knowing-ness" that others outside the group are not privy to.
Scientology has its own set.....and to hear others detail and decipher the coded language is very interesting. Only by isolation, immersion and indoctrination could one begin to take in the totality of this system without full-stop rejection. Twi was/is the same. Subtle. Deceptive. Indoctrination.
And, with twi.......the diaspora of terminology from the nine manifestations alone had enough thistles to fill a brier patch. The 16 keys, the definitions, the classifications, the holiday songs........spewing into the atmosphere, and breathe life, of every follower of da vey. With each new class, one is treading toward a canyon of control......making the trek back to life, and normalcy, much harder to escape.
Well......we certainly know where about Lynn, Schoenheit, Finnegan, Panarello, Clapp, Seed, and others who splintered from wierwille-org......yet, retained vast swaths of its doctrine, structure, classes, outreach system, tithe/abs support, mini-brc's, and pfal-nostalgia followers. In essence, these guys simply uprooted and moved down to the corner, around the block......and set up shop. Tweaked it a bit. Just like wierwille did......when twi splintered from leonard's work.....same deal, different day. These guys had the wierwille-prototype staring them in the face.......and with the death of wierwille and geer's "patriarch paper" they bolted.
Others?.......faded into careers, education, family and life. Several on that 1985 Clergy List are now dead.
But, yeah.......where are those valiant for the truth? Why the silence and the timidity on the destruction of people's lives "in the name of God?" Just seems like lots of these men were yes-men who relished in the perks of lording over others, but when it came time to "speak the truth in love"........they are no where to be found. Perhaps, some still cling to wierwille's Lifelines in their facebook postings and hold in high regard their input when wierwille walked on earth. But really? I find THE SILENCE remarkably hypocritical. No respect whatsoever to lots of them.
Heck......even some of the big ex-players in scientology deem it their responsibility to help mitigate the damage done by their cult.
And men like you also Skyrider! You were a Country Coordinator, LC, and clergyman. Where are the rest?????
If and when it ever dawns on us that the one personality trait that NEVER made it very far down the road with God, and then look back (or look around now) and see (or smell) the pride oozing out with every other breath... the answer to that question seems rather mute. Though it may have taken many years longer than it should have, I have no doubt that God has (and/or will) fill those that genuinely hunger and thirst after righteousness (though, perhaps not in the same way, or in the way we might expect.) Seems it might have taken God 40 years to humble Moses enough to finally lead Israel out of Egypt. Much less with Paul (maybe only a couple of years or so, after knocking him out of the saddle and blinding him for 3 days).
Given how much was hidden and/or covered up (even from so many on staff at HQ, which I can easily attest to) ...I am often appalled (if not stunned) at what is said was known by some of you. It can read like there were so many that knew all this scathing crappola that... well, quite frankly, makes it sound like anyone with half a fkn brain would have known or seen all that was going on. Then again, pride can be such a blinding attribute that maybe it's hard to find (much less use) even half a brain.
Just because someone reads or posts here on GS isn't some "get out of jail free" card that magically covers up or mitigates the stench of pride so infamously associated with TWI. Maybe what's most important to the Lord isn't where we've been, or how long it takes, but who or what we are like if honestly seeking after and learning who he really is.
"Just because someone reads or posts here on GS isn't some "get out of jail free" card that magically covers up or mitigates the stench of pride so infamously associated with TWI. Maybe what's most important to the Lord isn't where we've been, or how long it takes, but who or what we are like if honestly seeking after and learning who he really is."
And your point is what exactly? Leaving the reader subject to implication or inference says NOTHING. It simply demonstrates your abject cowardice to "say what you mean and mean what you say." Chickens**t.
EXACTLY........where are these former twi-leaders?
The dearth of these "ex-wayers" to come clean is stunning. Do they STILL agree with wierwille and his doctrines? Are they STILL complicit in the mlm-pyramid to funnel all monies to their splinter groups.....thus, amplifying their own side-ministries-of-pfal-nostalgia?
I still have my 1985 Clergy Listing from twi.......and to SEE ALL THE NAMES WHO'VE EXITED is striking!! So many who were in major positions of authority are NOW running their own little group of way-daze followers. Obviously, its their means, for most, of livelihood......having no other skill sets or advanced education. I just thought that there'd be a dozen or more of this group that would have exposed wierwille, his sexual predation and skewed doctrines. Sometimes, I wonder........perhaps, twi has some blackmail material locked away on some of these splinter guys and have threatened them to STAY QUIET.
Thankfully, men like you DWBH......have the balls to speak out and dismantle the wierwille mystique and twi's twisted history.
I appreciate all you've done thru the years.
I agree - I am thankful for folks like Don't Worry, Penworks, and yourself, Skyrider - as well as all the other brave souls who have shared their stories at Grease Spot and in published books!
I don't think any single person could have connected all the dots and realize what a crazy evil mess TWI was and still is...because the dots are people (that's right - soylent green is made of dots)....with security mechanisms in place like the lockbox or expecting folks to hid their head in the sand - I mean "renew your mind...the love of god thinketh no evil - so keep your mouth shut and don't go murmuring, gossiping, spreading rumors, hurting the ministry / body of christ"...blah blah blah...
to connect the dots - that's the point of Grease Spot and wherever else folks tell the other side of the story
I agree - I am thankful for folks like Don't Worry, Penworks, and yourself, Skyrider - as well as all the other brave souls who have shared their stories at Grease Spot and in published books!
I don't think any single person could have connected all the dots and realize what a crazy evil mess TWI was and still is...because the dots are people (that's right - soylent green is made of dots)....with security mechanisms in place like the lockbox or expecting folks to hid their head in the sand - I mean "renew your mind...the love of god thinketh no evil - so keep your mouth shut and don't go murmuring, gossiping, spreading rumors, hurting the ministry / body of christ"...blah blah blah...
to connect the dots - that's the point of Grease Spot and wherever else folks tell the other side of the story
Good point, T-Bone, about connecting the dots. It often depended on the level of a person's involvement. Until I worked in the research department, I could not, or would not, wake up to red flags I'd seen ... they did not appear red until I reflected on them in hindsight.
I didn't get to watch the Scientology documentary yet, maybe I can find it. skyrider I think you are right. The Way leadership has always functioned under a series of purges. From the early days, through the VP days, through the time period in penworks book - the PooP paper by Geer and post period purging. Okie boy Loy also carried out his series of purges starting from the "loyalty" purge after the PooP days, then to the debt purges, then to the homo purges, then the lawsuits brought their own purges, including the second purger getting purged by the 3rd purger Rosie who mostly was a micromanager purging off of any dissent.
They all remind me of this section of Galatians 5:
13.For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; onlyusenot liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.14For all the law is fulfilled in one word,evenin this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.16ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The Way has been consumed for decades by "A Series of Unfortunate Purges".
And men like you also Skyrider! You were a Country Coordinator, LC, and clergyman. Where are the rest?????
yeah, DWBH I hear you on that. So many of those to draw an analogy with the Steve Martin movie "Leap of Faith" continued on trying to work in "aluminum siding" in to their pitch for false deliverance, rather than getting on their knees and confessing their sins and fixing their own hearts. We certainly have over-abundant evidence of that.
There may be some that prefer to seek their deliverance outside of these kinds of discussion forums and public acknowledgements. I know my spouse is one. Can't stand GS discussions. Would probably throw sh1t at me if I persisted in an ongoing discussion about it. But down deep completely agrees.
I try to lend my typing hands a bit the best I can and have for a number of years, partially out of my own therapy and partially out of a little sense of responsibility towards the younger generation. I can't get all enflamed about that either though and make that my post-cult cult. The milennials are going to have to save themselves. I can throw a couple shovels full of dirt to help fill in a hole, but my days taking on a free second job for virtuous motives are behind me. Have to save up energy for my job in retirement. ;)
I didn't get to watch the Scientology documentary yet, maybe I can find it. skyrider I think you are right. The Way leadership has always functioned under a series of purges. From the early days, through the VP days, through the time period in penworks book - the PooP paper by Geer and post period purging. Okie boy Loy also carried out his series of purges starting from the "loyalty" purge after the PooP days, then to the debt purges, then to the homo purges, then the lawsuits brought their own purges, including the second purger getting purged by the 3rd purger Rosie who mostly was a micromanager purging off of any dissent. <snip>
The Way has been consumed for decades by "A Series of Unfortunate Purges".
When I was on hq-staff, 1979- ......I distinctly remember one Saturday afternoon talking with Steve Sa-nn, 4th corps. He had been "invited by wierwille" [along with his wife and other 4th corps grads on the field] to come to headquarters for further training.......i.e. re-education camp. Wierwille had mandated this policy for a number of years.....to bring these earlier field corps back to hq and "run them thru the paces .....er, fundamentals, the 5 corps principles. Anyways.....Steve was NOT happy to be there. He did NOT like it that wierwille was intimidating and manipulating them privately and publicly. And.......from that day forward, I contemplated that wierwille did this strategically---"to put them back in their place"....subservient to him......and in effect, PURGED their growing status on the field and respective limb support.
In essence, wierwille sent these men/women on the field and after 3-4 years would, basically, "clipping their wings"......stymieing them from soaring to greater heights [and taking their limb and seceding from hq altogether]. Personally, deep down.....I felt that these "invitations by wierwille to bring back those early corps leaders and run them thru the paces again" had detrimental effects.
A series of purges was weaponized to instill loyalty.
Given how much was hidden and/or covered up (even from so many on staff at HQ, which I can easily attest to) ...I am often appalled (if not stunned) at what is said was known by some of you. It can read like there were so many that knew all this scathing crappola that... well, quite frankly, makes it sound like anyone with half a fkn brain would have known or seen all that was going on. Then again, pride can be such a blinding attribute that maybe it's hard to find (much less use) even half a brain.
Hey TLC I can relate to some of what you are saying about pride. The lure of being the "chosen few" among the chosen few justified considering others beneath ourselves. One of the growth areas I'm glad about post TWI is losing the caste system pride BS. That has really made life in relationships even with strangers and acquaintances much more enjoyable.
i did want to share with you personally that despite being in trusted leadership positions we knew nothing about the sub-culture, or anything other than what was handed down the pipeline about any of that scathing crappola when we were in. That was well hidden from us by mirrors and sleight of hand. One example of this - I remember being in a Corpse meeting where rfr confronted the Corpse about LCM's antics and said a lot of stuff like you said above - that many of us knew about it and did nothing about it. That was kind of puzzling at the time because we knew nada about it. Reflecting back, after learning more, it was a diversionary tactic - she actually was the one that did exactly what she was accusing us of - knew about it, did nothing. Actually she let C's antics go on because she was busy consoling Donna and developing her relationship with her.
This forum at GS and actually the documents that used to be here too is where I pieced together so many things. It's like wikipedia - many many sources and editors and stories and cross-checking helps fill in the gaps in details in information.
I think all our TWI stories are pretty unique. Lumping people together and judging them is probably more of the remnants of pride than it is an accurate assessment.
- I remember being in a Corpse meeting where rfr confronted the Corpse about LCM's antics and said a lot of stuff like you said above - that many of us knew about it and did nothing about it.
hmm...(long pause)
Well, that's not at all what I said. So, after re-reading (and re-reading) my post (and then your post) several times trying to figure out why you appear to think it says something different, perhaps I can say it another way that makes it somewhat easier to understand.
But before touching the real point of it (which evidently also eluded DWBH... and maybe most others), allow me to clarify this portion of it:
On 12/9/2016 at 5:33 PM, TLC said:
Given how much was hidden and/or covered up (even from so many on staff at HQ, which I can easily attest to) ...I am often appalled (if not stunned) at what is said was known by some of you. It can read like there were so many that knew all this scathing crappola that...
For starters, keep in mind my departure from HQ was '85. It sounds like you were there for much later (possibly longer.) If it were only a bit of self medicating with alcohol to ease the pain of a cancerous eye, or talking about how pretty some of the young women were, or missing the accuracy on the teachings on financial prosperity... would any of the above have fallen into the category of "scathing crappola"? Nah. But, as many here have already plainly and repeatedly attested to, these were not the case. It is how far beyond these some folk (such as DWBH, but he's not the only one) say they knew at the time were going on that I am often taken back by. (Gut punched, at times.)
So yeah, I more than get it that there was a lot of "cover up" going on that made it hard, if not outright impossible, for most (even on staff at HQ) to see or know what was really happening beneath the surface. But, without touching upon which of any of those nastier things might have been worse, there is one thing that stands out (in hindsight) as being so obvious, that it now seems that it should have been very hard for anyone to miss (especially those at HQ.) Some undoubtedly saw (or sensed) it more than others, and who knows how many left (or were repelled right from the get go) as a result. However, it seems as though those of us that were the closest to it, were also the most afflicted it ...and hence, blinded the most by it. (btw, the roots of it stretch far beyond a caste system, which it certainly grew into at TWI.)
Pride.
And my thought to mention Moses and Paul in my previous post was to point out that it appears in scripture that it can be so difficult for men with the highest natural aptitude to be humble, that highly unusually and incredible "events" (not so pleasant, mind you) happened in their life to humble them. Why it is that men with higher intelligence, greater leadership ability, or whatever else you want to call it, have such a difficult time with this might be more obvious to some than others. Nevertheless, it's plenty evident both in scripture, and in life around us, if you care to see it. So, I'll say this again (but in a different way from my previous post.) Those most afflicted by it can have the most difficulty seeing it (especially in their own lives, and in the lives of others when things related to it "sync" with their own ideology.)
On 12/9/2016 at 5:51 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:
Chickens**t.
Yeah, call me what you will, DWBH. Put this post in your pipe and smoke it.
If you get it, you get it. And if you don't, then I guess you don't.
I think when some of us caught glimpses of what we thought might be going on, we were subsequently gas-lighted. ("You must be possessed to even entertain such possibilities. Renew your mind.")
How else to keep devil spirits out of the Household? Purging. At least they didn't burn people at the stake. Purging could be seen as a success story. Religious power being increasingly limited over the centuries.
On 12/9/2016 at 11:49 PM, waysider said:
Eat enough familia and you'll quckly understand the meaning of "a powerful series of purges".
If you got purged you got dumped. They did you a favor.
May be a valid point, Waysider, though it might have been much more the case in years after '86 (when more was "out of the bag" after the POP reading) than before. Before then, some were simply fired (aka, separated from HQ) for other reasons.
For starters, keep in mind my departure from HQ was '85. It sounds like you were there for much later (possibly longer.) If it were only a bit of self medicating with alcohol to ease the pain of a cancerous eye, or talking about how pretty some of the young women were, or missing the accuracy on the teachings on financial prosperity... would any of the above have fallen into the category of "scathing crappola"? Nah. But, as many here have already plainly and repeatedly attested to, these were not the case. It is how far beyond these some folk (such as DWBH, but he's not the only one) say they knew at the time were going on that I am often taken back by. (Gut punched, at times.)
So yeah, I more than get it that there was a lot of "cover up" going on that made it hard, if not outright impossible, for most (even on staff at HQ) to see or know what was really happening beneath the surface. But, without touching upon which of any of those nastier things might have been worse, there is one thing that stands out (in hindsight) as being so obvious, that it now seems that it should have been very hard for anyone to miss (especially those at HQ.) Some undoubtedly saw (or sensed) it more than others, and who knows how many left (or were repelled right from the get go) as a result. However, it seems as though those of us that were the closest to it, were also the most afflicted by it ...and hence, blinded the most by it. (btw, the roots of it stretch far beyond a caste system, which it certainly grew into at TWI.)
TLC.....most always, you speak in such generalities that it is hard to understand your point.
When I post, I endeavor to detail the FACTS and REASONS why I hold these opinions and viewpoints. For sure, I saw red flags in 1978 and the years to follow ---- while in-residence at Emporia Campus. The fawning adulation (idolatry) of wierwille's arrival on campus was only the appetizer. His arrogance, demeanor, and manipulation of scripture on corps night was served to us over and over again. And, those character-assassination, smearing, over-the-top-trashing of clergy/corps who were exiting sent those red flags flying high! I swear, I almost left 5 or 6 times......but kept telling myself that "wierwille was a spiritual man, I was a novice."
Add to this: 1978----my limb coordinator, Rev. John Cl-ay (4th corps) was exiting twi prior to the roa. And, when I got to the Advanced Class, I was chosen as a Branch Leader.....and our first meeting was with wierwille and martindale at 4pm in the fireplace room. At this meeting, wierwille was STILL livid with the three 8th corps guys who'd gone "rogue" on their research project....and why wierwille felt the need to unload this sheetstorm on us was perplexing.
Add: 1) My meeting with Steve Sa-nn (4th corps).....and he was openly displeased with wierwille and twi. 2) Mike Sm!th, (1st corps) my department coordinator expressed his plans to head to Alaska (1981)....and in so many words, remove himself from any more corps assignments. 3) Lonn3l Johns0n, (5th corps) was moving towards masters/doctorate work. 4) John Ra-ce, Ambassador One pilot......split from wierwille and hq without hardly a goodby. 5) Christ0ph St0pe (5th corps) seemed to abruptly leave the research dept. Etc. etc.
I stayed because, perhaps, the next president could fix the problems. Then....quickly came the "fog years." Then.....the purges. Alas, it never got fixed. Not even addressed properly. Now....at GSC, the posters are nailing it to TWI's Doors (pound, pound, pound) !!!
Perhaps, I never came face-to-face with "the roadkill".......but I could sure smell the stench of it at the corner of Shelby County Rd and Wierwille Rd.
So, no......I was NOT blindsided by twi's demise and internal unraveling. The red flags were flying everywhere.
I think it was a general brainwashed state not to "think evil" of leadership, reinforced by Lil Napolean behavior and retemories. don't look over here behind the curtain, what you see isn't what it is. it doesn't register in your brain. that's without anyone else even telling you anything. then if anyone would say anything remotely negative, many zealots are around to gaslight. I honestly don't see a great deal of difference in that type of behavior pre or post 1985
I honestly don't see a great deal of difference in that type of behavior pre or post 1985
You're right, there is no difference. Same dead tree, same rotted roots. Any differences are trivial in my experiences.
Example: Under LCM it was envogue to be as nasty as you could towards those who caused waves. Under RosaLIE folks are so loving and syrupy sweet. At least at first, then the fangs come out. Same evil, different trappings. My perspective anyway.
I think it was a general brainwashed state not to "think evil" of leadership, reinforced by Lil Napolean behavior and retemories. don't look over here behind the curtain, what you see isn't what it is. it doesn't register in your brain. that's without anyone else even telling you anything. then if anyone would say anything remotely negative, many zealots are around to gaslight. I honestly don't see a great deal of difference in that type of behavior pre or post 1985
Yeah, mid '70's, FellowLaborers. We had to use the pretense of going to the corner truck stop (Wayside Truck Stop) for junk food so we could have a few minutes to talk privately and try to figure out what the hell was going on. You couldn't let anyone know what you were discussing or even thinking, for that matter. And remember, information was awfully hard to come by back then. Plus, you could be mistaken. Then what?
So yeah, I more than get it that there was a lot of "cover up" going on that made it hard, if not outright impossible, for most (even on staff at HQ) to see or know what was really happening beneath the surface. But, without touching upon which of any of those nastier things might have been worse, there is one thing that stands out (in hindsight) as being so obvious, that it now seems that it should have been very hard for anyone to miss (especially those at HQ.) Some undoubtedly saw (or sensed) it more than others,....<snip>
In 1980, in the BRC.....a group of six were seated up front to share about their experiences and learning at "The Tracker" seminar where Tom Brown Jr. taught skills of tracking and survival. Remember, from 1976-1981, twi and, specifically, the corps program was heavily engaged in a sub-theme of "mobile abundant living" [MAL-packs] in the event of an American government overthrow. Thus, some corps and others went to learn from the man who was "the master of tracking" - Tom Brown Jr.
During this BRC gathering, wierwille was seated near the front on the side. All six members had come prepared to share their learning experience to those of us, 90-120 people, in an evening gathering. Going down the line, each shared about ten minutes and how learning is exciting and all. BUT.....this nice, pleasant evening was just about to take a jaded turn as the fourth person shared his experience. He was 8th corps and had a deep enthusiasm for all-things nature, had built a small cabin years before, and an ego to match. Not sure if he spoke longer than his slotted time frame, but superlatives were attached to Tom Brown's skills and teaching. Tom Brown was the master, the man in the spotlight, the man to teach anyone about life and living!!
Well.....wiewille couldn't stand it any longer. With fire in his eyes, he jumped up and unloaded with vehement, frothing-at-the-mouth anger! This 8th corps guy was "POSSESSED," he thundered with a vengence. For a moment, I actually thought wierwille was going to throw a punch and deck the guy. He was that furious. He railed and railed. I found myself in a whirlwind of thoughts, "What the he!! is going on here? Is this guy really possessed? Are we going to see devil spirits cast out? Oh, my!" Wierwille thundered onward....there seemed to be no end.
Finally, the fury stopped as wierwille headed for the backroom of the BRC. The silence in the room was deafening as Johnnie T. came forward to tag-team the meltdown. Another ten minutes of justifying wierwille's fury and Johnnie dismissed us. As I walked back to my unit, I wondered why wierwille didn't cast out any spirits.....IF this guy was indeed possessed. My respect for wierwille had, once again, diminished in my eyes.
Amazingly, the head-to-head confrontation did NOT crush this 8th corps guy nor his testimony....in my opinion. And perhaps, that is why the confrontation lasted so long. WIERWILLE COULD NOT STAND ANOTHER MAN, TOM BROWN, LAUDED AS A GREAT MAN AND TEACHER.
Quote
Another Wierwille Confrontation...
While at headquarters my final year of inresidence corps......a nightowl was scheduled in the Way Woods. The night was pleasant and, as we walked past the George Jess memorial, a crackling fire welcomed us with curling flames and warmth. For me, I was thankful to be outdoors and soak in the sounds and smells of nature.
As always, the corps coordinator handles the initial stages of corps gatherings before wierwille steps in. This seems to be standard twi protocol, much like a warm-up band takes the stage before the marquee band takes the music and crowd to a whole new level. Anyways, that is the way it's always done....and probably, will stay. When wierwille enters, he takes his chair and is flanked by the corps coordinator. Another couple of logs are placed on the fire to set the atmosphere, and the crickets chirp in the woods.
About an hour into the nightowl, as the serenity of the evening was peaking....none of us could foresee what was about to erupt! In the shadows behind wierwille was his aide, his bodyguard whose two-way radio blurted and screeched in the quiet night air. The "atmosphere" of the whole evening came to an abrupt halt; a meticulously planned nightowl was broken in an instant. Wierwille could NOT contain his anger. He unleashed this tempest and castigated him relentlessly for about five minutes.
This bodyguard was the same man wierwille had praised months before by saying, "He stands by my side, because he doesn't take sh!t from no one." So, the irony of this night loomed large as wierwille couldn't help but verbally attack his right-hand man. Why couldn't vpw just cover for the mistake? Or, better yet.....call attention to it as a big ooops! and move on? What made it so awkward was that wierwille was "caught in the headlights" and couldn't adjust to the moment. So, his anger came front and center!! To me, this fury revealed wierwille's character....something he worked a lifetime to hide.
The bodyguard? From what I heard from hq-staffers the next day, he packed up and left.
Never saw him again.
Quote
The 3rd Wierwille Major Confrontation.....
Sitting in the OSC Dining Room during Corps Night [those transition years moving from the BRC and waiting for the Auditorium to be built]........where wierwille was going thru his "literal translations according to usage" in the Book of Romans. While most corps took notes furiously, there were others in the back who didn't take these meetings quite so serious or spiritual.
Anyways..........about an hour into the corps meeting, and this 6th corps guy is starting to nod off. Problem was..... he was near the front, somewhere near the fourth or fifth row, and in eye-shot of wierwille. Well, the nodding increased and the closed-eyelids-duration was becoming visibly evident. And, even though a couple of nearby corps tried to help this fellow stay awake.........it just wasn't meant to be.
And, then it happened......wierwille's eyes fixed on a NODDING, DOZING CORPS GRAD who had the audacity, and no spirituality, to sleep while wierwille taught from Romans!!! This "act of disrespect" demanded the most intense verbal lashing that wierwille could muster......and thus it was. Red-faced with anger, and neck-veins visible...... wierwille launched into this tirade to strip bare every thread of self-worth that this corps grad had. On and on the verbal lashing went........not 20 stripes, not 25 stripes, not 30 stripes, not 35 stripes........BUT 39 VICIOUS, VERBAL STRIPES.......just one short of total and utter demoralization.
Wierwille's anger could not be contained.....he went back stage and Craig came out as if *to tag-team* the effort some more. It was horrendous and awful and disgraceful. Man, in hindsight.....I wish that I'd stood up and yelled at the top of my lungs........SHUT THE HECK UP AND LET HIM BE.
The corps guy was escorted from the room......and wierwille came back, after about 10 minutes, to finish his teaching. But we'd already SEEN his teaching and lifestyle......who needed to take more notes???
The next morning......word spread that the 6th Corps staff guy was fired and sent packing.
Need to add.......this corps guy, after seeking medical help awhile later, found out that he had a blood-sugar problem and he was treated for it. Prescription medicine helped him to not doze off. Guess wierwille nor martindale saw deep enough to HELP this guy
See, TLC........there WERE lots of things going on before 1985 at hq (before you left).......you just didn't have your eyes open.
And, I left hq in 1984.......away from this rotting "root locale" and headed back on the field.
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skyrider
Just wanted to revisit this thread.............and say again...... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank you, DWBH.......... For the past 18 years......i.e. Waydale/GSC........you have shown impe
T-Bone
I’ve put that Scientology expose on my watch list/Amazon Fire Stick. After reading several books on Scientology and then Undertow I think I need a little break from cult stuff – maybe I should watch
skyrider
Where are the rest? Well......we certainly know where about Lynn, Schoenheit, Finnegan, Panarello, Clapp, Seed, and others who splintered from wierwille-org......yet, retained vast swaths of its
DontWorryBeHappy
I watched the first three episodes also Skyrider. Very compelling. Though specifics, jargon, doctrine, and social structure differ, the psychodynamic of all totalist cults is the same. Simply change names, locations, and intimidation styles, and you can place one cult after another in this series' lineup and the chilling similarities will ring true for all those ever involved in any type of cult. I applaud Lisa for having the balls to do this, and the strength to get former leaders to tell the truth. THAT aspect of her series is totally missing from ex-way leadership IMO. Instead of standing up and exposing the lies, crimes, and misdemeanors committed by wierwille et al, most of these high profile former cult leaders simply ignore them and start their own cults in the name of honest reform and teaching da woid. They are liars, pimps and whores IMO.
Where are the following on Greasespot?
John Lynn, Gerald Wrenn, Vince Finnegan, Bo Reahard, Walter Cummins, Bruce Mahone, John Crouch, Ken Brown, John Townsend, Ricardo Caballero, Earl Burton, Art Poling, Larry Panarello, Tom and Barbara Kally, Michael Fort, Bill and Marsha Greene, Harvey Platig, Claudettee Royal, Bob Winegarner, Bill Winegarner, Gary Curtis, Randy Anderson, George Hendley, Tom Jenkinson, Bruce Mahone, John Schoenheit, Brian and Alison Heaney, Duke Clarke, Randy Feese, Barry Jones, Tim Bishop, Alan Licht, Dale Sides, Michael Rood, Franklin Smith, Doug Seed, Chuck LaMattina, Charlie Quillen, Doug MacMullan, Paul Metkel, David Turk, Wayne Merrill, Steve Sann, Jerry Carr, Terry Wilson, Bob Lindfelt, Maurice Goulet, Dave Standage, Mosqueda, Lewis Lind, Koetteritz, and on and on and on.
There are as many wayfers and ex-way "leadership" with blood on their hands and stolen money in their pickets as there are Scientoligists and Moonies. Looking forward to the day they all come clean and finally tell the truth about TWIt and themselves. Don't hold your breath!
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skyrider
EXACTLY........where are these former twi-leaders?
The dearth of these "ex-wayers" to come clean is stunning. Do they STILL agree with wierwille and his doctrines? Are they STILL complicit in the mlm-pyramid to funnel all monies to their splinter groups.....thus, amplifying their own side-ministries-of-pfal-nostalgia?
I still have my 1985 Clergy Listing from twi.......and to SEE ALL THE NAMES WHO'VE EXITED is striking!! So many who were in major positions of authority are NOW running their own little group of way-daze followers. Obviously, its their means, for most, of livelihood......having no other skill sets or advanced education. I just thought that there'd be a dozen or more of this group that would have exposed wierwille, his sexual predation and skewed doctrines. Sometimes, I wonder........perhaps, twi has some blackmail material locked away on some of these splinter guys and have threatened them to STAY QUIET.
Thankfully, men like you DWBH......have the balls to speak out and dismantle the wierwille mystique and twi's twisted history.
I appreciate all you've done thru the years.
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skyrider
Yeah......the jargon of all totalitarian cults is a psychodynamic extension of their own warped clusterfest. The buzzwords, the newspeak is designed to mystify, to intrigue, to separate and exclude those from the inner sanctum of this closed society. With each class, each program......one is more deeply indoctrinated into this fringe element of "knowing-ness" that others outside the group are not privy to.
Scientology has its own set.....and to hear others detail and decipher the coded language is very interesting. Only by isolation, immersion and indoctrination could one begin to take in the totality of this system without full-stop rejection. Twi was/is the same. Subtle. Deceptive. Indoctrination.
And, with twi.......the diaspora of terminology from the nine manifestations alone had enough thistles to fill a brier patch. The 16 keys, the definitions, the classifications, the holiday songs........spewing into the atmosphere, and breathe life, of every follower of da vey. With each new class, one is treading toward a canyon of control......making the trek back to life, and normalcy, much harder to escape.
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DontWorryBeHappy
And men like you also Skyrider! You were a Country Coordinator, LC, and clergyman. Where are the rest?????
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skyrider
Where are the rest?
Well......we certainly know where about Lynn, Schoenheit, Finnegan, Panarello, Clapp, Seed, and others who splintered from wierwille-org......yet, retained vast swaths of its doctrine, structure, classes, outreach system, tithe/abs support, mini-brc's, and pfal-nostalgia followers. In essence, these guys simply uprooted and moved down to the corner, around the block......and set up shop. Tweaked it a bit. Just like wierwille did......when twi splintered from leonard's work.....same deal, different day. These guys had the wierwille-prototype staring them in the face.......and with the death of wierwille and geer's "patriarch paper" they bolted.
Others?.......faded into careers, education, family and life. Several on that 1985 Clergy List are now dead.
But, yeah.......where are those valiant for the truth? Why the silence and the timidity on the destruction of people's lives "in the name of God?" Just seems like lots of these men were yes-men who relished in the perks of lording over others, but when it came time to "speak the truth in love"........they are no where to be found. Perhaps, some still cling to wierwille's Lifelines in their facebook postings and hold in high regard their input when wierwille walked on earth. But really? I find THE SILENCE remarkably hypocritical. No respect whatsoever to lots of them.
Heck......even some of the big ex-players in scientology deem it their responsibility to help mitigate the damage done by their cult.
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TLC
If and when it ever dawns on us that the one personality trait that NEVER made it very far down the road with God, and then look back (or look around now) and see (or smell) the pride oozing out with every other breath... the answer to that question seems rather mute. Though it may have taken many years longer than it should have, I have no doubt that God has (and/or will) fill those that genuinely hunger and thirst after righteousness (though, perhaps not in the same way, or in the way we might expect.) Seems it might have taken God 40 years to humble Moses enough to finally lead Israel out of Egypt. Much less with Paul (maybe only a couple of years or so, after knocking him out of the saddle and blinding him for 3 days).
Given how much was hidden and/or covered up (even from so many on staff at HQ, which I can easily attest to) ...I am often appalled (if not stunned) at what is said was known by some of you. It can read like there were so many that knew all this scathing crappola that... well, quite frankly, makes it sound like anyone with half a fkn brain would have known or seen all that was going on. Then again, pride can be such a blinding attribute that maybe it's hard to find (much less use) even half a brain.
Just because someone reads or posts here on GS isn't some "get out of jail free" card that magically covers up or mitigates the stench of pride so infamously associated with TWI. Maybe what's most important to the Lord isn't where we've been, or how long it takes, but who or what we are like if honestly seeking after and learning who he really is.
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DontWorryBeHappy
"Just because someone reads or posts here on GS isn't some "get out of jail free" card that magically covers up or mitigates the stench of pride so infamously associated with TWI. Maybe what's most important to the Lord isn't where we've been, or how long it takes, but who or what we are like if honestly seeking after and learning who he really is."
And your point is what exactly? Leaving the reader subject to implication or inference says NOTHING. It simply demonstrates your abject cowardice to "say what you mean and mean what you say." Chickens**t.
Edited by DontWorryBeHappySpelling
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waysider
Eat enough familia and you'll quckly understand the meaning of "a powerful series of purges".
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Rocky
Really, oatmeal with one tablespoon of flax seed daily with do the trick.
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T-Bone
I agree - I am thankful for folks like Don't Worry, Penworks, and yourself, Skyrider - as well as all the other brave souls who have shared their stories at Grease Spot and in published books!
I don't think any single person could have connected all the dots and realize what a crazy evil mess TWI was and still is...because the dots are people (that's right - soylent green is made of dots)....with security mechanisms in place like the lockbox or expecting folks to hid their head in the sand - I mean "renew your mind...the love of god thinketh no evil - so keep your mouth shut and don't go murmuring, gossiping, spreading rumors, hurting the ministry / body of christ"...blah blah blah...
to connect the dots - that's the point of Grease Spot and wherever else folks tell the other side of the story
Edited by T-Bonefinish out a thought
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penworks
Good point, T-Bone, about connecting the dots. It often depended on the level of a person's involvement. Until I worked in the research department, I could not, or would not, wake up to red flags I'd seen ... they did not appear red until I reflected on them in hindsight.
Here's a sneak peak into Undertow, Chapter 1: Hiding in Plain Sight,
Cheers.
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chockfull
I didn't get to watch the Scientology documentary yet, maybe I can find it. skyrider I think you are right. The Way leadership has always functioned under a series of purges. From the early days, through the VP days, through the time period in penworks book - the PooP paper by Geer and post period purging. Okie boy Loy also carried out his series of purges starting from the "loyalty" purge after the PooP days, then to the debt purges, then to the homo purges, then the lawsuits brought their own purges, including the second purger getting purged by the 3rd purger Rosie who mostly was a micromanager purging off of any dissent.
They all remind me of this section of Galatians 5:
13.For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The Way has been consumed for decades by "A Series of Unfortunate Purges".
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chockfull
yeah, DWBH I hear you on that. So many of those to draw an analogy with the Steve Martin movie "Leap of Faith" continued on trying to work in "aluminum siding" in to their pitch for false deliverance, rather than getting on their knees and confessing their sins and fixing their own hearts. We certainly have over-abundant evidence of that.
There may be some that prefer to seek their deliverance outside of these kinds of discussion forums and public acknowledgements. I know my spouse is one. Can't stand GS discussions. Would probably throw sh1t at me if I persisted in an ongoing discussion about it. But down deep completely agrees.
I try to lend my typing hands a bit the best I can and have for a number of years, partially out of my own therapy and partially out of a little sense of responsibility towards the younger generation. I can't get all enflamed about that either though and make that my post-cult cult. The milennials are going to have to save themselves. I can throw a couple shovels full of dirt to help fill in a hole, but my days taking on a free second job for virtuous motives are behind me. Have to save up energy for my job in retirement. ;)
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skyrider
When I was on hq-staff, 1979- ......I distinctly remember one Saturday afternoon talking with Steve Sa-nn, 4th corps. He had been "invited by wierwille" [along with his wife and other 4th corps grads on the field] to come to headquarters for further training.......i.e. re-education camp. Wierwille had mandated this policy for a number of years.....to bring these earlier field corps back to hq and "run them thru the
paces.....er, fundamentals, the 5 corps principles. Anyways.....Steve was NOT happy to be there. He did NOT like it that wierwille was intimidating and manipulating them privately and publicly. And.......from that day forward, I contemplated that wierwille did this strategically---"to put them back in their place"....subservient to him......and in effect, PURGED their growing status on the field and respective limb support.In essence, wierwille sent these men/women on the field and after 3-4 years would, basically, "clipping their wings"......stymieing them from soaring to greater heights [and taking their limb and seceding from hq altogether]. Personally, deep down.....I felt that these "invitations by wierwille to bring back those early corps leaders and run them thru the paces again" had detrimental effects.
A series of purges was weaponized to instill loyalty.
.
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chockfull
Hey TLC I can relate to some of what you are saying about pride. The lure of being the "chosen few" among the chosen few justified considering others beneath ourselves. One of the growth areas I'm glad about post TWI is losing the caste system pride BS. That has really made life in relationships even with strangers and acquaintances much more enjoyable.
i did want to share with you personally that despite being in trusted leadership positions we knew nothing about the sub-culture, or anything other than what was handed down the pipeline about any of that scathing crappola when we were in. That was well hidden from us by mirrors and sleight of hand. One example of this - I remember being in a Corpse meeting where rfr confronted the Corpse about LCM's antics and said a lot of stuff like you said above - that many of us knew about it and did nothing about it. That was kind of puzzling at the time because we knew nada about it. Reflecting back, after learning more, it was a diversionary tactic - she actually was the one that did exactly what she was accusing us of - knew about it, did nothing. Actually she let C's antics go on because she was busy consoling Donna and developing her relationship with her.
This forum at GS and actually the documents that used to be here too is where I pieced together so many things. It's like wikipedia - many many sources and editors and stories and cross-checking helps fill in the gaps in details in information.
I think all our TWI stories are pretty unique. Lumping people together and judging them is probably more of the remnants of pride than it is an accurate assessment.
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TLC
hmm...(long pause)
Well, that's not at all what I said. So, after re-reading (and re-reading) my post (and then your post) several times trying to figure out why you appear to think it says something different, perhaps I can say it another way that makes it somewhat easier to understand.
But before touching the real point of it (which evidently also eluded DWBH... and maybe most others), allow me to clarify this portion of it:
For starters, keep in mind my departure from HQ was '85. It sounds like you were there for much later (possibly longer.) If it were only a bit of self medicating with alcohol to ease the pain of a cancerous eye, or talking about how pretty some of the young women were, or missing the accuracy on the teachings on financial prosperity... would any of the above have fallen into the category of "scathing crappola"? Nah. But, as many here have already plainly and repeatedly attested to, these were not the case. It is how far beyond these some folk (such as DWBH, but he's not the only one) say they knew at the time were going on that I am often taken back by. (Gut punched, at times.)
So yeah, I more than get it that there was a lot of "cover up" going on that made it hard, if not outright impossible, for most (even on staff at HQ) to see or know what was really happening beneath the surface. But, without touching upon which of any of those nastier things might have been worse, there is one thing that stands out (in hindsight) as being so obvious, that it now seems that it should have been very hard for anyone to miss (especially those at HQ.) Some undoubtedly saw (or sensed) it more than others, and who knows how many left (or were repelled right from the get go) as a result. However, it seems as though those of us that were the closest to it, were also the most afflicted it ...and hence, blinded the most by it. (btw, the roots of it stretch far beyond a caste system, which it certainly grew into at TWI.)
Pride.
And my thought to mention Moses and Paul in my previous post was to point out that it appears in scripture that it can be so difficult for men with the highest natural aptitude to be humble, that highly unusually and incredible "events" (not so pleasant, mind you) happened in their life to humble them. Why it is that men with higher intelligence, greater leadership ability, or whatever else you want to call it, have such a difficult time with this might be more obvious to some than others. Nevertheless, it's plenty evident both in scripture, and in life around us, if you care to see it. So, I'll say this again (but in a different way from my previous post.) Those most afflicted by it can have the most difficulty seeing it (especially in their own lives, and in the lives of others when things related to it "sync" with their own ideology.)
Yeah, call me what you will, DWBH. Put this post in your pipe and smoke it.
If you get it, you get it. And if you don't, then I guess you don't.
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waysider
I think when some of us caught glimpses of what we thought might be going on, we were subsequently gas-lighted. ("You must be possessed to even entertain such possibilities. Renew your mind.")
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Bolshevik
How else to keep devil spirits out of the Household? Purging. At least they didn't burn people at the stake. Purging could be seen as a success story. Religious power being increasingly limited over the centuries.
If you got purged you got dumped. They did you a favor.
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TLC
May be a valid point, Waysider, though it might have been much more the case in years after '86 (when more was "out of the bag" after the POP reading) than before. Before then, some were simply fired (aka, separated from HQ) for other reasons.
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skyrider
TLC.....most always, you speak in such generalities that it is hard to understand your point.
When I post, I endeavor to detail the FACTS and REASONS why I hold these opinions and viewpoints. For sure, I saw red flags in 1978 and the years to follow ---- while in-residence at Emporia Campus. The fawning adulation (idolatry) of wierwille's arrival on campus was only the appetizer. His arrogance, demeanor, and manipulation of scripture on corps night was served to us over and over again. And, those character-assassination, smearing, over-the-top-trashing of clergy/corps who were exiting sent those red flags flying high! I swear, I almost left 5 or 6 times......but kept telling myself that "wierwille was a spiritual man, I was a novice."
Add to this: 1978----my limb coordinator, Rev. John Cl-ay (4th corps) was exiting twi prior to the roa. And, when I got to the Advanced Class, I was chosen as a Branch Leader.....and our first meeting was with wierwille and martindale at 4pm in the fireplace room. At this meeting, wierwille was STILL livid with the three 8th corps guys who'd gone "rogue" on their research project....and why wierwille felt the need to unload this sheetstorm on us was perplexing.
Add: 1) My meeting with Steve Sa-nn (4th corps).....and he was openly displeased with wierwille and twi. 2) Mike Sm!th, (1st corps) my department coordinator expressed his plans to head to Alaska (1981)....and in so many words, remove himself from any more corps assignments. 3) Lonn3l Johns0n, (5th corps) was moving towards masters/doctorate work. 4) John Ra-ce, Ambassador One pilot......split from wierwille and hq without hardly a goodby. 5) Christ0ph St0pe (5th corps) seemed to abruptly leave the research dept. Etc. etc.
I stayed because, perhaps, the next president could fix the problems. Then....quickly came the "fog years." Then.....the purges. Alas, it never got fixed. Not even addressed properly. Now....at GSC, the posters are nailing it to TWI's Doors (pound, pound, pound) !!!
Perhaps, I never came face-to-face with "the roadkill".......but I could sure smell the stench of it at the corner of Shelby County Rd and Wierwille Rd.
So, no......I was NOT blindsided by twi's demise and internal unraveling. The red flags were flying everywhere.
.
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chockfull
I think it was a general brainwashed state not to "think evil" of leadership, reinforced by Lil Napolean behavior and retemories. don't look over here behind the curtain, what you see isn't what it is. it doesn't register in your brain. that's without anyone else even telling you anything. then if anyone would say anything remotely negative, many zealots are around to gaslight. I honestly don't see a great deal of difference in that type of behavior pre or post 1985
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OldSkool
You're right, there is no difference. Same dead tree, same rotted roots. Any differences are trivial in my experiences.
Example: Under LCM it was envogue to be as nasty as you could towards those who caused waves. Under RosaLIE folks are so loving and syrupy sweet. At least at first, then the fangs come out. Same evil, different trappings. My perspective anyway.
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waysider
Yeah, mid '70's, FellowLaborers. We had to use the pretense of going to the corner truck stop (Wayside Truck Stop) for junk food so we could have a few minutes to talk privately and try to figure out what the hell was going on. You couldn't let anyone know what you were discussing or even thinking, for that matter. And remember, information was awfully hard to come by back then. Plus, you could be mistaken. Then what?
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skyrider
"Outright impossible" to see.......?????
Confrontations leveled at those who dissent
On my interim year at hq (1979-1980):
See, TLC........there WERE lots of things going on before 1985 at hq (before you left).......you just didn't have your eyes open.
And, I left hq in 1984.......away from this rotting "root locale" and headed back on the field.
.
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