I'm not sure if this topic has been discussed and what was the outcome, after all many Christians struggle with the issue of tithing and including member of twi, as I was one of them because this didn't convince me in certain ways. Should Christ tithe? so what's the story behind the story?
you take close a look on the twi post November 7, 2016 Giving to God—The Tithe for reference.
We as Christians are not under the tithe.
The lie that we ever were obligated to give ten percent of everything was, well, a lie.
At worst, it has been an excuse by ministers to control a larger portion of wealth, or even to rake some in for their own selves. At best it is misguided, and wrong, on part of well-intentioned but misguided ministers.
But, brethren, let us not use liberty as an occasion to the flesh. As we reap, so shall we sow.
God has poured out His riches already, how much more He longs to do for us.
Our job then is to give our sharing to those we think best suited to take this bounty and use it to minister to the earthly needs, the need for food, clothing, and shelter, of God's people, and to care for His ministers.
It is GOOD to give, of an open and generous heart. Because you want to.
It is NOT GOOD to give, of obligation or worse, fear that God will ignore you.
The tithe is rooted in Mosaic law. If you find a Levite to give to, maybe you could reconsider tithing. Your church minister is not a Levite. Might want supporting financially, but that does make him/her a Levite.
The instruction to the new churches, as beaten out in Acts 15, contains this:
Where does it say, these new believers must tithe? Right alongside where it says the men must be circumcised? Oh, no, wrong - they decided that wasn't necessary.
The instruction to the new churches, as beaten out in Acts 15, contains this:
Yeah, "instructions" from Jerusalem... where they were so deep into the practice of the law that they were evidently insistent on getting everyone under a law or two. Sure, maybe it was palatable enough (compared to the much of the rest of the law) to the Gentile nations that it served to bring (temporary) unity to the church. But, it still looks like the imposition of very rigid "instructions" (aka... laws?).
Sorry, but even though I believe the record of events is accurate, I'm just not persuaded what resulted at (or from) the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 is (or was) "the word of God." You can disagree, but it sure looks and feels like "the word of James" to me.
TWI never called it a tithe... but there was more than a little pressure to give (financially) to HQ. But if you're going to quote scripture on instructions to the church on giving, the best I know of is going straight to 2 Corthinians 9:7 (which pretty much says it all:)
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
Not what someone else purposes for him (though plenty will try to poke and prod the heart in a direction they think it should go)... but as he purposes.
"TWI never called it a tithe... but there was more than a little pressure to give (financially) to HQ. But if you're going to quote scripture on instructions to the church on giving, the best I know of is going straight to 2 Corthinians 9:7 (which pretty much says it all:)"
Wrong. Refer to "Christians Should Be Prosperous" please. TY.
Wrong. Refer to "Christians Should Be Prosperous" please. TY.
Ughh... no wonder I never liked (or believed) that book. But, after dusting it off, it looks like you're right... so I'll concede the point.
The tithe may have been a "law of prosperity" for Israel, but it sure as heck ain't for us. (That's besides the fact that I doubt TWI even taught correctly how the tithe worked for Israel when the law was in effect.) Just crazy how messed up those teachings are...
what's the origin of the tithe and what does it mean?
Should I Tithe because is a commandment?
Does the Bible require me to give 10 percent of my income ?
What Does the Bible Say About the Tithe or Tithing?
I see that a lot of Churches and denominations still recommending Christians to give tithe and promising them that they will be blessed and protected. If not then God will turn everything against them.
I found something a long time ago that i thought was helpful in gaining a biblical perspective on the tithe - in Decision Making & the Will of God by Garry Friesen with J. Robin Maxson
“…the tithe, which was foundational to the economic system of the theocratic nation of Israel, is not part of the economic system of the church. In the church, there are no taxes, dues, membership fees, or any other prescribed assessments. The ministry of the church is supported as each member gives “as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion” (2 Corinthians 9:7). And so, Christians are not under obligation to practice tithing.” (from page 357)
The chapter also talks about there being something almost like a planned obsolescence to the tithe in that the local church was not considered a “storehouse” like the temple, the reward of material blessing to faithfulness promised to Israel is not mentioned for the church, according to the Apostles the Mosaic Law was set aside for Christians, and that the express command to tithe is not carried over into the New Testament.
Another thing I wanted to comment on was your mention of what other churches are doing with the tithe in your first post. while I certainly don’t think it’s proper for them to blunt the joy of giving by pressuring folks (calling it the tithe) – it does make me think of another shady aspect of TWI in that The Way International does not have open books like other churches - that can be reviewed by the public – so you don’t know where your money goes!
I belong to two churches (both Anglican). They both support a lot of mission work both overseas and in the UK and specifically in this city. But I know from their annual reports that they donate AT LEAST 10% of income goes to support overseas missions - missionaries, start-up churches, Bible translations into other languages (here's a link to the Banen translation report). Regular reports of all projects supported are given at the annual church meetings (both churches).
As to what TWI supports, by way of real outreach and support for the underprivileged... DWBH tells of two sets of books, one for the govt and one for TWI. And despite it being "available" for any tithing Wayfer to see the books - I never heard of anyone who did see them.
...snip...As to what TWI supports, by way of real outreach and support for the underprivileged... DWBH tells of two sets of books, one for the govt and one for TWI. And despite it being "available" for any tithing Wayfer to see the books - I never heard of anyone who did see them.
Raf did quite a bit of really good work on this particular subject. I have no idea how to find it again.
Neither do I, to be honest, but the upshot is this:
Very few people tithed in the Old Testament. It was never a rule that applied to everyone. Abraham tithed one time. Once. Not every dang week. No evidence that Isaac did, Jacob, etc.
In the New Testament, tithing is not mentioned as a requirement or even an expectation for believers. Giving (whether above or below 10 percent) was a response, a natural reflection of each believer's assessment of various qualities in his life (faith, love, knowledge of the Word, experience in living the Word, and zeal for the movement of the gospel). Ten percent is neither an upper or lower limit for the Christian believer.
If I ever find all my work on these subjects, I'll let you know. The foundation for it was 2 Corinthians 8.
Very few people tithed in the Old Testament. It was never a rule that applied to everyone.
Yes, but it (and Mal.3:10) did apply to Israel and was appropriate for them in that day and time. However, it (and Mal.3:10) were not given as rules, laws, instructions, guidelines (use whatever word anyone cares to) for the economy of this day and time. So, anyone "expecting" (aka, trying to believe for) the same results that Israel may have received (or been promised) will be walking out on... well, let's just call it... very thin ice.
But what the heck, if someone thinks they can walk on water... go for it!
My previous post was from memory, but then I started looking at some other folks' work on the subject of tithing and it jogged my memory on a couple of points.
There is no evidence that Abraham tithed more than once.
There is no evidence Jacob tithed at all, not even once, though the Biblical evidence is consistent with him doing so at least one time. What's interesting about Jacob is, his promise to tithe came with a BUNCH of conditions. Oh, I'll tithe, but first you gotta give me five golden rings, four calling birds, three French hens, two turtle doves and a Partridge played by Susan Dey.
It's also interesting to note that for both Abraham and Jacob, there is no indication whatsoever that God set the amount they were to give. It was their idea in both cases.
There is no evidence that Abraham tithed more than once.
and from the spoils of war... lol.
4 hours ago, Raf said:
There is no evidence Jacob tithed at all, not even once, though the Biblical evidence is consistent with him doing so at least one time
Well, the tithe was part of the Levetical law... which, of course, wasn't given until hundreds of years later. And, not knowing the mindset or motives of these patriarchs means that there's just no real way to know what "percentage" of the world they might have perceived as belonging (or owed ?) to the Lord. Or, if that's even the best way to make the comparison between the economy of their day and time to that of "the tithe" as it was set forth by Moses. Seems reasonable to think that by the time Moses arrived on the scene, Israel was so torqued in their own selfish view of the world that maybe "the tithe" was to intended to keep (or to introduce) God in(to) the picture.
I found something a long time ago that i thought was helpful in gaining a biblical perspective on the tithe - in Decision Making & the Will of God by Garry Friesen with J. Robin Maxson
“…the tithe, which was foundational to the economic system of the theocratic nation of Israel, is not part of the economic system of the church. In the church, there are no taxes, dues, membership fees, or any other prescribed assessments. The ministry of the church is supported as each member gives “as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion” (2 Corinthians 9:7). And so, Christians are not under obligation to practice tithing.” (from page 357)
The chapter also talks about there being something almost like a planned obsolescence to the tithe in that the local church was not considered a “storehouse” like the temple, the reward of material blessing to faithfulness promised to Israel is not mentioned for the church, according to the Apostles the Mosaic Law was set aside for Christians, and that the express command to tithe is not carried over into the New Testament.
Another thing I wanted to comment on was your mention of what other churches are doing with the tithe in your first post. while I certainly don’t think it’s proper for them to blunt the joy of giving by pressuring folks (calling it the tithe) – it does make me think of another shady aspect of TWI in that The Way International does not have open books like other churches - that can be reviewed by the public – so you don’t know where your money goes!
Hi T-Bone,
Thanks for your comments and I agree with all that but we keep seeing churches taking advantages of Malachi 3:10 which is often misunderstood. And to bring more emphases on the tithe they use Malachi 3:8-9 which God was addressing to people of Israel for that time in OT. This is what I don't agree and not happy to hear in the churches.
Instead we can clearly see 2 Corinthians 9:7 and Acts 2:40-47 but the emphases is on Acts 2:44-46.
Thanks for your comments and I agree with all that but we keep seeing churches taking advantages of Malachi 3:10 which is often misunderstood. And to bring more emphases on the tithe they use Malachi 3:8-9 which God was addressing to people of Israel for that time in OT. This is what I don't agree and not happy to hear in the churches.
Instead we can clearly see 2 Corinthians 9:7 and Acts 2:40-47 but the emphases is on Acts 2:44-46.
Acts 2:40-47 is no more written to, or intended for, the church today than anything in Malachi 3 is. And the failure to understand that has lead to more poverty in the church (most notably in this forum, TWI) than you can shake a stick at. Sure, most churches tone this down from communism to socialism... but remember:
"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" — Margaret Thatcher
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Bapsy
Guys,
I'm not sure if this topic has been discussed and what was the outcome, after all many Christians struggle with the issue of tithing and including member of twi, as I was one of them because this didn't convince me in certain ways. Should Christ tithe? so what's the story behind the story?
you take close a look on the twi post November 7, 2016 Giving to God—The Tithe for reference.
We as Christians are not under the tithe.
The lie that we ever were obligated to give ten percent of everything was, well, a lie.
At worst, it has been an excuse by ministers to control a larger portion of wealth, or even to rake some in for their own selves. At best it is misguided, and wrong, on part of well-intentioned but misguided ministers.
But, brethren, let us not use liberty as an occasion to the flesh. As we reap, so shall we sow.
God has poured out His riches already, how much more He longs to do for us.
Our job then is to give our sharing to those we think best suited to take this bounty and use it to minister to the earthly needs, the need for food, clothing, and shelter, of God's people, and to care for His ministers.
Edited by BapsyLink to comment
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Twinky
It is GOOD to give, of an open and generous heart. Because you want to.
It is NOT GOOD to give, of obligation or worse, fear that God will ignore you.
The tithe is rooted in Mosaic law. If you find a Levite to give to, maybe you could reconsider tithing. Your church minister is not a Levite. Might want supporting financially, but that does make him/her a Levite.
The instruction to the new churches, as beaten out in Acts 15, contains this:
Where does it say, these new believers must tithe? Right alongside where it says the men must be circumcised? Oh, no, wrong - they decided that wasn't necessary.
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Twinky
(Edited for clarity, got it wrong the second time)
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TLC
Yeah, "instructions" from Jerusalem... where they were so deep into the practice of the law that they were evidently insistent on getting everyone under a law or two. Sure, maybe it was palatable enough (compared to the much of the rest of the law) to the Gentile nations that it served to bring (temporary) unity to the church. But, it still looks like the imposition of very rigid "instructions" (aka... laws?).
Sorry, but even though I believe the record of events is accurate, I'm just not persuaded what resulted at (or from) the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 is (or was) "the word of God." You can disagree, but it sure looks and feels like "the word of James" to me.
TWI never called it a tithe... but there was more than a little pressure to give (financially) to HQ. But if you're going to quote scripture on instructions to the church on giving, the best I know of is going straight to 2 Corthinians 9:7 (which pretty much says it all:)
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
Not what someone else purposes for him (though plenty will try to poke and prod the heart in a direction they think it should go)... but as he purposes.
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DontWorryBeHappy
"TWI never called it a tithe... but there was more than a little pressure to give (financially) to HQ. But if you're going to quote scripture on instructions to the church on giving, the best I know of is going straight to 2 Corthinians 9:7 (which pretty much says it all:)"
Wrong. Refer to "Christians Should Be Prosperous" please. TY.
Edited by DontWorryBeHappySpelling
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TLC
Ughh... no wonder I never liked (or believed) that book. But, after dusting it off, it looks like you're right... so I'll concede the point.
The tithe may have been a "law of prosperity" for Israel, but it sure as heck ain't for us. (That's besides the fact that I doubt TWI even taught correctly how the tithe worked for Israel when the law was in effect.) Just crazy how messed up those teachings are...
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Bolshevik
"Christians Should Be Prosperous"
In TWI, "Christian" was often considered a derogatory term.
Sooo . . . "Losers Should Be Prosperous" would be more a more accurate title.
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waysider
Raf did quite a bit of really good work on this particular subject. I have no idea how to find it again.
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T-Bone
I found something a long time ago that i thought was helpful in gaining a biblical perspective on the tithe - in Decision Making & the Will of God by Garry Friesen with J. Robin Maxson
“…the tithe, which was foundational to the economic system of the theocratic nation of Israel, is not part of the economic system of the church. In the church, there are no taxes, dues, membership fees, or any other prescribed assessments. The ministry of the church is supported as each member gives “as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion” (2 Corinthians 9:7). And so, Christians are not under obligation to practice tithing.” (from page 357)
The chapter also talks about there being something almost like a planned obsolescence to the tithe in that the local church was not considered a “storehouse” like the temple, the reward of material blessing to faithfulness promised to Israel is not mentioned for the church, according to the Apostles the Mosaic Law was set aside for Christians, and that the express command to tithe is not carried over into the New Testament.
Another thing I wanted to comment on was your mention of what other churches are doing with the tithe in your first post. while I certainly don’t think it’s proper for them to blunt the joy of giving by pressuring folks (calling it the tithe) – it does make me think of another shady aspect of TWI in that The Way International does not have open books like other churches - that can be reviewed by the public – so you don’t know where your money goes!
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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Twinky
I belong to two churches (both Anglican). They both support a lot of mission work both overseas and in the UK and specifically in this city. But I know from their annual reports that they donate AT LEAST 10% of income goes to support overseas missions - missionaries, start-up churches, Bible translations into other languages (here's a link to the Banen translation report). Regular reports of all projects supported are given at the annual church meetings (both churches).
As to what TWI supports, by way of real outreach and support for the underprivileged... DWBH tells of two sets of books, one for the govt and one for TWI. And despite it being "available" for any tithing Wayfer to see the books - I never heard of anyone who did see them.
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T-Bone
Thanks Twinky - i did not know that
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Raf
Neither do I, to be honest, but the upshot is this:
Very few people tithed in the Old Testament. It was never a rule that applied to everyone. Abraham tithed one time. Once. Not every dang week. No evidence that Isaac did, Jacob, etc.
In the New Testament, tithing is not mentioned as a requirement or even an expectation for believers. Giving (whether above or below 10 percent) was a response, a natural reflection of each believer's assessment of various qualities in his life (faith, love, knowledge of the Word, experience in living the Word, and zeal for the movement of the gospel). Ten percent is neither an upper or lower limit for the Christian believer.
If I ever find all my work on these subjects, I'll let you know. The foundation for it was 2 Corinthians 8.
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TLC
Yes, but it (and Mal.3:10) did apply to Israel and was appropriate for them in that day and time. However, it (and Mal.3:10) were not given as rules, laws, instructions, guidelines (use whatever word anyone cares to) for the economy of this day and time. So, anyone "expecting" (aka, trying to believe for) the same results that Israel may have received (or been promised) will be walking out on... well, let's just call it... very thin ice.
But what the heck, if someone thinks they can walk on water... go for it!
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Raf
My previous post was from memory, but then I started looking at some other folks' work on the subject of tithing and it jogged my memory on a couple of points.
There is no evidence that Abraham tithed more than once.
There is no evidence Jacob tithed at all, not even once, though the Biblical evidence is consistent with him doing so at least one time. What's interesting about Jacob is, his promise to tithe came with a BUNCH of conditions. Oh, I'll tithe, but first you gotta give me five golden rings, four calling birds, three French hens, two turtle doves and a Partridge played by Susan Dey.
It's also interesting to note that for both Abraham and Jacob, there is no indication whatsoever that God set the amount they were to give. It was their idea in both cases.
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TLC
and from the spoils of war... lol.
Well, the tithe was part of the Levetical law... which, of course, wasn't given until hundreds of years later. And, not knowing the mindset or motives of these patriarchs means that there's just no real way to know what "percentage" of the world they might have perceived as belonging (or owed ?) to the Lord. Or, if that's even the best way to make the comparison between the economy of their day and time to that of "the tithe" as it was set forth by Moses. Seems reasonable to think that by the time Moses arrived on the scene, Israel was so torqued in their own selfish view of the world that maybe "the tithe" was to intended to keep (or to introduce) God in(to) the picture.
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Bapsy
Hi T-Bone,
Thanks for your comments and I agree with all that but we keep seeing churches taking advantages of Malachi 3:10 which is often misunderstood. And to bring more emphases on the tithe they use Malachi 3:8-9 which God was addressing to people of Israel for that time in OT. This is what I don't agree and not happy to hear in the churches.
Instead we can clearly see 2 Corinthians 9:7 and Acts 2:40-47 but the emphases is on Acts 2:44-46.
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TLC
Acts 2:40-47 is no more written to, or intended for, the church today than anything in Malachi 3 is. And the failure to understand that has lead to more poverty in the church (most notably in this forum, TWI) than you can shake a stick at. Sure, most churches tone this down from communism to socialism... but remember:
"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" — Margaret Thatcher
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modcat5
Moved from "Questioning Faith" after consultation with original poster. Enjoy.
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