Hi there. Lurker for a few months, this is actually my first post - I just registered. Been reluctant to register/post for quite some time since I'm rather freshly 'out' and have seen via lurking what TWI can pull up on first-time posters who reveal just enough to identify them.
But anyway, for some reason, I did want to confirm that there will be no AC in 2017. They sent out a very plain memorandum stating this a few months ago. No reason provided. I do believe they're also getting crafty with how they provide the classes...eliminating the headcount requirement, doing them by fellowship instead of branch, yada yada. From my vantage point it seems like tough times on TWI's part.
Welcome, Out'n'About. Enjoy your time at the Cafe.
Do share what you can, safely, about what TWI is up to now. Most people here have been out for decades, but for those more recent escapees, what you can share will be interesting, perhaps useful.
Don't be afraid of them. That fear is their only power over you. God still loves YOU and won't bully you or disregard you. Welcome to life in its joyful abundance - outside the walls of cultdom.
Hi there. Lurker for a few months, this is actually my first post - I just registered. Been reluctant to register/post for quite some time since I'm rather freshly 'out' and have seen via lurking what TWI can pull up on first-time posters who reveal just enough to identify them.
But anyway, for some reason, I did want to confirm that there will be no AC in 2017. They sent out a very plain memorandum stating this a few months ago. No reason provided. I do believe they're also getting crafty with how they provide the classes...eliminating the headcount requirement, doing them by fellowship instead of branch, yada yada. From my vantage point it seems like tough times on TWI's part.
welcome to Grease Spot Out'n'About - thanks for sharing the update...and listen to what Twinky said about being discreet
....so continue to operate in stealth mode...and...we've never had this conversation...
Hi there. Lurker for a few months, this is actually my first post - I just registered. Been reluctant to register/post for quite some time since I'm rather freshly 'out' and have seen via lurking what TWI can pull up on first-time posters who reveal just enough to identify them.
But anyway, for some reason, I did want to confirm that there will be no AC in 2017. They sent out a very plain memorandum stating this a few months ago. No reason provided. I do believe they're also getting crafty with how they provide the classes...eliminating the headcount requirement, doing them by fellowship instead of branch, yada yada. From my vantage point it seems like tough times on TWI's part.
Thanks Out'n'About.......good to have updated and confirmed info.
So...what's this about "eliminating the headcount requirement?" Does that mean that an outlying fellowship can run a foundational class of 3 students? If they've eliminated the requirement, who decides a minimum? How about a class with ONE new student? Imagine all the time, work, set-up,......for that ONE student?
It sounds like the whole enchilada is coming to a screeching halt........BAMM.
Hi Out 'n' About. Cheers to you for joining in the conversation and we do welcome you with open minds and open hearts. Thanks for filling us in on current news. People ask me if TWI is still in existence and I say yes, but the number of followers is low now. What would be your estimate, nation-wide or world-wide, of active "members?"
Take good care and feel free to ask whatever questions here that you want. By leaving TWI, you can question anything and everything. Yay!
Hi there. Lurker for a few months, this is actually my first post - I just registered. Been reluctant to register/post for quite some time since I'm rather freshly 'out' and have seen via lurking what TWI can pull up on first-time posters who reveal just enough to identify them.
But anyway, for some reason, I did want to confirm that there will be no AC in 2017. They sent out a very plain memorandum stating this a few months ago. No reason provided. I do believe they're also getting crafty with how they provide the classes...eliminating the headcount requirement, doing them by fellowship instead of branch, yada yada. From my vantage point it seems like tough times on TWI's part.
Hey Out'n'About.
Good to see you here.
Have a slice of pumpkin pie on the house for Thanksgiving.
You know I am also reluctant to reveal personal information on a website like this publicly. I figure if someone wants to know, they will message me. I'm not afraid of Inspector Gadget L1nder or anything, if they figure out my personal info they can still f off.
Yea, the Way is desperate to sell a fundamentalist controlling religion that nobody wants. And they are too stupid to see it or change.
Hi Out 'n' About. Cheers to you for joining in the conversation and we do welcome you with open minds and open hearts. Thanks for filling us in on current news. People ask me if TWI is still in existence and I say yes, but the number of followers is low now. What would be your estimate, nation-wide or world-wide, of active "members?"
Take good care and feel free to ask whatever questions here that you want. By leaving TWI, you can question anything and everything. Yay!
Charlene, my unconfirmed USA numbers count from around the vicinity of 10 years ago was about 4500 in the United States total. Even then they were making all the fellowship coordinators get permission from the Trunk office to remove a member from the rolls. Even then they wanted this info concealed - even the region coordinators didn't have hard numbers of other regions.
I don't know hard numbers now, I'm sure that is something the BODummies wants to keep concealed. My guess would be about 50% of those numbers currently, after rfr went on various rampages kicking people out. I mean 2500 may not be 100% accurate, but I bet you it is not an order of magnitude off, like it's not 25,000 in the US.
Basically the Way's membership in the US (which is kind of funny because on one hand they say they don't have any members, on the other they have these processes to keep people on the books?) is about the same as a medium sized community church in a larger city.
Thanks all for your kind and welcoming words! It feels great to be part of the conversation now instead of just an observer. I may introduce myself in the "official" thread soon. For some background, I am under 35, was raised "in the word" (this is still just as commonly used a phrase as it ever was...very annoying!) and have not attended any type of meeting for well over...lets say, four months. These figures are purposefully vague ;)
It has been valuable to lurk and read the stories from those of you who have been "out" as long as 20 years and as recently as 5 - I would bet there are plenty of lurkers like myself, from a more recent wave, who are interested in sharing their story. I know from experience that when those of us who are freshly "out" try to communicate in real life (the internet, in person, you name it) TWI makes a HUGE effort to stop it. I am so reluctant to share my story as it'll probably give me away entirely, but lets just say if TWI (or a concerned parent) catches a whiff of a young outtie trying to talk to an innie, they intervene as quickly and roughly as they can. I'm now glad I can hide behind the internet! Lol.
2 hours ago, penworks said:
What would be your estimate, nation-wide or world-wide, of active "members?"
I have absolutely, positively, zero idea. If I ask my family, I would imagine they'd fudge the numbers. I know some states (FL, OH) have plenty more action than others. My state has around 5-10 fellowships of 5-10 members each. Yawn.
3 hours ago, skyrider said:
So...what's this about "eliminating the headcount requirement?" Does that mean that an outlying fellowship can run a foundational class of 3 students? If they've eliminated the requirement, who decides a minimum? How about a class with ONE new student? Imagine all the time, work, set-up,......for that ONE student?
Again, I don't know for sure - but it sounds like this is exactly what's happening. Per-fellowship, no minimum. I'm not sure how recently you have been involved, but EVERY SINGLE class from foundational to advanced is now recorded and on a DVD - they just pull up an old TV in front of the class and press play. To that point, they're probably not viewing it as that big of an effort, especially since its hard as hell to run one around here with the minimum of five people or whatever. I think people are also getting ....ed off about the "no refund" policy; I feel strongly about this and "new people" who I've seen join/attend feel the same. You pay your $100, you wait around for a year for a class to attend, and once the year goes by without a full, running class - no fault of your own - you're out $100?
Again, I've been out for several months (I'd say long enough to be official - no way I'm going back) but still have some very close ties. People are still "kindly" trying to get me back in, but the message is pretty clear.
You all may get a kick out of this - but I think I am finally past the point where I think posting on this website is the devil/adversary working through me. It is nice to have a place to speak freely about our experiences without people jumping in and telling us we're possessed.
Charlene, my unconfirmed USA numbers count from around the vicinity of 10 years ago was about 4500 in the United States total.
I don't know hard numbers now, I'm sure that is something the BODummies wants to keep concealed. My guess would be about 50% of those numbers currently, after rfr went on various rampages kicking people out. I mean 2500 may not be 100% accurate, but I bet you it is not an order of magnitude off, like it's not 25,000 in the US.
Holy...crap. I wasn't sure what to post when I was asked, but if you made me spit out a number, I'd literally have said 45,000 - three zeroes. The ONLY basis I have on spouting out this number is that I've been told repeatedly over the years that there are "tens of thousands" - likely on purpose to make me feel as if all is alive and well in TWI.
Just calling it an advanced class is a joke, in and of itself. It's not advanced and it's not a class. It's an indoctrination into a medieval type of thinking.
but EVERY SINGLE class from foundational to advanced is now recorded and on a DVD - they just pull up an old TV in front of the class and press play.
Just curious - do they still have those "review" session summaries before the next session? They were so awesome. I remember some of the ones on tape done by some Stepford wives looking lady with a facial expression that was downright frightening. I mean almost as frightening as killer clowns frightening.
Just curious - do they still have those "review" session summaries before the next session? They were so awesome. I remember some of the ones on tape done by some Stepford wives looking lady with a facial expression that was downright frightening. I mean almost as frightening as killer clowns frightening.
Yep, they sure do! At least, they did as of a few years ago. Everything is extremely tame and robotic now, though, so I can't recall anything or anyone too eccentric. Just a dull, over-annunciated summary of the previous session before jumping into the next.
Just calling it an advanced class is a joke, in and of itself. It's not advanced and it's not a class. It's an indoctrination into a medieval type of thinking.
We could sum up the teaching for those who are in debt and can never take it.
A. Review of VPW's plagiarism in the Holy Spirit field - comprehensive.
B. Long stories of Old Testament prophets read through
C. Zoology of devil spirit classification.
Like all classes they now have multiple teachers so if one leaves they don't have to pay for re-doing the whole class.
This was always the most "talked-up" portion of the class. When I went (as a "new student" in the past 10 years) I was told for months that it would be the most eye-opening experience of my life.
They saved every ounce of it for the last session. We walked around some tables after the session, they had books laid out of someone (forget who - VPW?) who spoke directly with a devil spirit. Something about them writing questions, the devil spirit picking up the pen and answering the questions? Extremely strange. We were all weirded out and not very impressed. The whole devil-spirit-classification thing seemed like a really enticing marketing pitch to actually get you in the door. There was literally nothing I could do with that knowledge after leaving.
They still have that table of occult books? I heard about that; if there was one at my Adv class I've forgotten about it. Well, to tell the truth, I've forgotten a lot of Way stuff but just occasionally somebody says something and it freaks me out.
There was a great teaching in church last Sunday on ch.4 of Philippians but the rector started talking about "fellowship" and my mind went off attempting to zoom back to TWI garbage and I spent much of the time wrestling with my mind ("Mind, come back here!" - sound familiar?) instead of paying attention to the rector, even though what he was saying was nothing like anything I'd heard in TWI. I will have to re-listen to the sermon, which is conveniently placed on the abbey's website on Mondays.
Holy...crap. I wasn't sure what to post when I was asked, but if you made me spit out a number, I'd literally have said 45,000 - three zeroes. The ONLY basis I have on spouting out this number is that I've been told repeatedly over the years that there are "tens of thousands" - likely on purpose to make me feel as if all is alive and well in TWI.
That is VERY interesting. In its heyday, the 1980s, TWI was said to have about 40,000. Karl Kahler's book, The Cult That Snapped: An Insider's Journey Into The Way International, has lots of facts you might be interested in reading. Like this info on numbers, which is included (here's a shameless advertisement ) in my own new book, Undertow:
Author Karl Kahler states, “Cult numbers are notoriously hard to pin down, and are often inflated by anti-cult writers more concerned with sounding the alarm than checking the facts. Many writers have claimed The Way had 100,000 members, as if everyone who ever took the class were still a member. Around 1982, when [Craig] Martindale [second president of The Way International] was marching in Ontario and Way leaders were talking to the press, I heard consistently that we were claiming to have 40,000 members.” Karl Kahler, The Cult That Snapped: A Journey into The Way International (Los Gatos, CA: Karl Kahler, 1999), 110.
See also: Zay N. Smith, “The Way—40,000 and Still Growing,” Chicago Sun-Times, Aug. 17, 1980.
So, it is HIGHLY doubtful that today TWI has 45,000 like they told you. Actually, more like impossible, since thousands left in the days after Geer read his paper.
I was on the presidents cabinet for a couple years. (a church with a president that comes complete with a presidents cabinet - I digress). My point is the board of dummies almost always have a cookie cutter approach to issues that arise. Many times running classes was the answer. ie, we had a president who was a sexual predator who was taught by vee pee himself. Instead of being honest with the root of the problem, Craig became the fall guy and rosalie had a class filmed - living gods word as a family. They have never addressed vee pee in this regard, hes still their patron saint.
Oun'N'About - Glad u threw off the mental shackles and joined the community here. My advice is if posting personal info costs u your family relationships then stay anon. I lurked for years before I got out of there and started posting here. I used to be very leary that they could somehow come after me. Now I could care less. I'm W1ll Br00k$ and they all can kiss my a$$. The shackles fall off soon enough, just go slow and enjoy the process.
Twinky - last I knew they still had "the junk tables" on display at the advanced class. all the occult books that vee pee had read, extrapolated the truth from, etc, barfola. He had done that for us, and there was no need for us to ever read them because he was so spiritual, more barfola. I'm other sure what they do anymore, I've been out since 2008.
Sorry for the multiple posts, I had trouble getting the quote button to work on my smart phone.
Just calling it an advanced class is a joke, in and of itself. It's not advanced and it's not a class. It's an indoctrination into a medieval type of thinking.
Methinks thy speech doth buttress a familiar opinion of a dispensational dullard most lewd – medieval thinkster indeed!
In my earlier days of TWI life - i believed PFAL was there to provide all the keys to succeed in life…and the Advanced Class was going to make me a bad-azz in spiritual warfare – kicking devil spirit’s butts.
Now Flash forward some five to ten centuries…I’m out of ye olde way-world and have come to realize PFAL and reality do not mix well together - something gotta give - and it won't be reality I assure you.
And being a simple Christian I take Romans 6, 7, and 8 very seriously and think the biggest war-front I face is the war within – dealing with my sinful nature, weaknesses and the temptations that confront us all. In my humble opinion, trying to live a morally sound life… to honestly love God and my neighbor seems to be a lot more practical (preparation-wise) for any spiritual battles....matter of fact I think there's more in the gospels and the rest of the New Testament for that matter - that challenge us to reflect on our own ways rather than looking to call out devil spirits for an imaginary Advanced Class brawl.
….i can do without the seeing-devil-spirits-behind-every-windmill mentality.....
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Twinky
Nobody's missing anything.
Sounds like the state is in trouble, Waywise. Do your best to take care of your friend's heart and wellbeing.
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OldSkool
That's great news on both accounts. Thanks for the update.
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Out'n'About
Hi there. Lurker for a few months, this is actually my first post - I just registered. Been reluctant to register/post for quite some time since I'm rather freshly 'out' and have seen via lurking what TWI can pull up on first-time posters who reveal just enough to identify them.
But anyway, for some reason, I did want to confirm that there will be no AC in 2017. They sent out a very plain memorandum stating this a few months ago. No reason provided. I do believe they're also getting crafty with how they provide the classes...eliminating the headcount requirement, doing them by fellowship instead of branch, yada yada. From my vantage point it seems like tough times on TWI's part.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Couldn't happen to a nicer, destructive, neo-Nazi hate group!
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Twinky
Welcome, Out'n'About. Enjoy your time at the Cafe.
Do share what you can, safely, about what TWI is up to now. Most people here have been out for decades, but for those more recent escapees, what you can share will be interesting, perhaps useful.
Don't be afraid of them. That fear is their only power over you. God still loves YOU and won't bully you or disregard you. Welcome to life in its joyful abundance - outside the walls of cultdom.
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T-Bone
welcome to Grease Spot Out'n'About - thanks for sharing the update...and listen to what Twinky said about being discreet
....so continue to operate in stealth mode...and...we've never had this conversation...
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skyrider
Thanks Out'n'About.......good to have updated and confirmed info.
So...what's this about "eliminating the headcount requirement?" Does that mean that an outlying fellowship can run a foundational class of 3 students? If they've eliminated the requirement, who decides a minimum? How about a class with ONE new student? Imagine all the time, work, set-up,......for that ONE student?
It sounds like the whole enchilada is coming to a screeching halt........BAMM.
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penworks
Hi Out 'n' About. Cheers to you for joining in the conversation and we do welcome you with open minds and open hearts. Thanks for filling us in on current news. People ask me if TWI is still in existence and I say yes, but the number of followers is low now. What would be your estimate, nation-wide or world-wide, of active "members?"
Take good care and feel free to ask whatever questions here that you want. By leaving TWI, you can question anything and everything. Yay!
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chockfull
Hey Out'n'About.
Good to see you here.
Have a slice of pumpkin pie on the house for Thanksgiving.
You know I am also reluctant to reveal personal information on a website like this publicly. I figure if someone wants to know, they will message me. I'm not afraid of Inspector Gadget L1nder or anything, if they figure out my personal info they can still f off.
Yea, the Way is desperate to sell a fundamentalist controlling religion that nobody wants. And they are too stupid to see it or change.
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chockfull
Charlene, my unconfirmed USA numbers count from around the vicinity of 10 years ago was about 4500 in the United States total. Even then they were making all the fellowship coordinators get permission from the Trunk office to remove a member from the rolls. Even then they wanted this info concealed - even the region coordinators didn't have hard numbers of other regions.
I don't know hard numbers now, I'm sure that is something the BODummies wants to keep concealed. My guess would be about 50% of those numbers currently, after rfr went on various rampages kicking people out. I mean 2500 may not be 100% accurate, but I bet you it is not an order of magnitude off, like it's not 25,000 in the US.
Basically the Way's membership in the US (which is kind of funny because on one hand they say they don't have any members, on the other they have these processes to keep people on the books?) is about the same as a medium sized community church in a larger city.
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Out'n'About
Thanks all for your kind and welcoming words! It feels great to be part of the conversation now instead of just an observer. I may introduce myself in the "official" thread soon. For some background, I am under 35, was raised "in the word" (this is still just as commonly used a phrase as it ever was...very annoying!) and have not attended any type of meeting for well over...lets say, four months. These figures are purposefully vague ;)
It has been valuable to lurk and read the stories from those of you who have been "out" as long as 20 years and as recently as 5 - I would bet there are plenty of lurkers like myself, from a more recent wave, who are interested in sharing their story. I know from experience that when those of us who are freshly "out" try to communicate in real life (the internet, in person, you name it) TWI makes a HUGE effort to stop it. I am so reluctant to share my story as it'll probably give me away entirely, but lets just say if TWI (or a concerned parent) catches a whiff of a young outtie trying to talk to an innie, they intervene as quickly and roughly as they can. I'm now glad I can hide behind the internet! Lol.
I have absolutely, positively, zero idea. If I ask my family, I would imagine they'd fudge the numbers. I know some states (FL, OH) have plenty more action than others. My state has around 5-10 fellowships of 5-10 members each. Yawn.
Again, I don't know for sure - but it sounds like this is exactly what's happening. Per-fellowship, no minimum. I'm not sure how recently you have been involved, but EVERY SINGLE class from foundational to advanced is now recorded and on a DVD - they just pull up an old TV in front of the class and press play. To that point, they're probably not viewing it as that big of an effort, especially since its hard as hell to run one around here with the minimum of five people or whatever. I think people are also getting ....ed off about the "no refund" policy; I feel strongly about this and "new people" who I've seen join/attend feel the same. You pay your $100, you wait around for a year for a class to attend, and once the year goes by without a full, running class - no fault of your own - you're out $100?
Again, I've been out for several months (I'd say long enough to be official - no way I'm going back) but still have some very close ties. People are still "kindly" trying to get me back in, but the message is pretty clear.
You all may get a kick out of this - but I think I am finally past the point where I think posting on this website is the devil/adversary working through me. It is nice to have a place to speak freely about our experiences without people jumping in and telling us we're possessed.
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Out'n'About
Holy...crap. I wasn't sure what to post when I was asked, but if you made me spit out a number, I'd literally have said 45,000 - three zeroes. The ONLY basis I have on spouting out this number is that I've been told repeatedly over the years that there are "tens of thousands" - likely on purpose to make me feel as if all is alive and well in TWI.
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waysider
Just calling it an advanced class is a joke, in and of itself. It's not advanced and it's not a class. It's an indoctrination into a medieval type of thinking.
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chockfull
Just curious - do they still have those "review" session summaries before the next session? They were so awesome. I remember some of the ones on tape done by some Stepford wives looking lady with a facial expression that was downright frightening. I mean almost as frightening as killer clowns frightening.
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Out'n'About
Yep, they sure do! At least, they did as of a few years ago. Everything is extremely tame and robotic now, though, so I can't recall anything or anyone too eccentric. Just a dull, over-annunciated summary of the previous session before jumping into the next.
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chockfull
We could sum up the teaching for those who are in debt and can never take it.
A. Review of VPW's plagiarism in the Holy Spirit field - comprehensive.
B. Long stories of Old Testament prophets read through
C. Zoology of devil spirit classification.
Like all classes they now have multiple teachers so if one leaves they don't have to pay for re-doing the whole class.
Did I miss anything important?
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waysider
Yeah the secret initiation into the inner sanctum......
(Just 'cuz I'm feeling a little bit impish today.)
HERE
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Out'n'About
This was always the most "talked-up" portion of the class. When I went (as a "new student" in the past 10 years) I was told for months that it would be the most eye-opening experience of my life.
They saved every ounce of it for the last session. We walked around some tables after the session, they had books laid out of someone (forget who - VPW?) who spoke directly with a devil spirit. Something about them writing questions, the devil spirit picking up the pen and answering the questions? Extremely strange. We were all weirded out and not very impressed. The whole devil-spirit-classification thing seemed like a really enticing marketing pitch to actually get you in the door. There was literally nothing I could do with that knowledge after leaving.
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Twinky
They still have that table of occult books? I heard about that; if there was one at my Adv class I've forgotten about it. Well, to tell the truth, I've forgotten a lot of Way stuff but just occasionally somebody says something and it freaks me out.
There was a great teaching in church last Sunday on ch.4 of Philippians but the rector started talking about "fellowship" and my mind went off attempting to zoom back to TWI garbage and I spent much of the time wrestling with my mind ("Mind, come back here!" - sound familiar?) instead of paying attention to the rector, even though what he was saying was nothing like anything I'd heard in TWI. I will have to re-listen to the sermon, which is conveniently placed on the abbey's website on Mondays.
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penworks
That is VERY interesting. In its heyday, the 1980s, TWI was said to have about 40,000. Karl Kahler's book, The Cult That Snapped: An Insider's Journey Into The Way International, has lots of facts you might be interested in reading. Like this info on numbers, which is included (here's a shameless advertisement
) in my own new book, Undertow:
Author Karl Kahler states, “Cult numbers are notoriously hard to pin down, and are often inflated by anti-cult writers more concerned with sounding the alarm than checking the facts. Many writers have claimed The Way had 100,000 members, as if everyone who ever took the class were still a member. Around 1982, when [Craig] Martindale [second president of The Way International] was marching in Ontario and Way leaders were talking to the press, I heard consistently that we were claiming to have 40,000 members.” Karl Kahler, The Cult That Snapped: A Journey into The Way International (Los Gatos, CA: Karl Kahler, 1999), 110.
See also: Zay N. Smith, “The Way—40,000 and Still Growing,” Chicago Sun-Times, Aug. 17, 1980.
So, it is HIGHLY doubtful that today TWI has 45,000 like they told you. Actually, more like impossible, since thousands left in the days after Geer read his paper.
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OldSkool
I was on the presidents cabinet for a couple years. (a church with a president that comes complete with a presidents cabinet
- I digress). My point is the board of dummies almost always have a cookie cutter approach to issues that arise. Many times running classes was the answer. ie, we had a president who was a sexual predator who was taught by vee pee himself. Instead of being honest with the root of the problem, Craig became the fall guy and rosalie had a class filmed - living gods word as a family. They have never addressed vee pee in this regard, hes still their patron saint.
I've got more to say. standby.
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OldSkool
Oun'N'About - Glad u threw off the mental shackles and joined the community here. My advice is if posting personal info costs u your family relationships then stay anon. I lurked for years before I got out of there and started posting here. I used to be very leary that they could somehow come after me. Now I could care less. I'm W1ll Br00k$ and they all can kiss my a$$. The shackles fall off soon enough, just go slow and enjoy the process.
more in a few.
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OldSkool
Twinky - last I knew they still had "the junk tables" on display at the advanced class. all the occult books that vee pee had read, extrapolated the truth from, etc, barfola. He had done that for us, and there was no need for us to ever read them because he was so spiritual, more barfola. I'm other sure what they do anymore, I've been out since 2008.
Sorry for the multiple posts, I had trouble getting the quote button to work on my smart phone.
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T-Bone
Methinks thy speech doth buttress a familiar opinion of a dispensational dullard most lewd – medieval thinkster indeed!
In my earlier days of TWI life - i believed PFAL was there to provide all the keys to succeed in life…and the Advanced Class was going to make me a bad-azz in spiritual warfare – kicking devil spirit’s butts.
Now Flash forward some five to ten centuries…I’m out of ye olde way-world and have come to realize PFAL and reality do not mix well together - something gotta give - and it won't be reality I assure you.
And being a simple Christian I take Romans 6, 7, and 8 very seriously and think the biggest war-front I face is the war within – dealing with my sinful nature, weaknesses and the temptations that confront us all. In my humble opinion, trying to live a morally sound life… to honestly love God and my neighbor seems to be a lot more practical (preparation-wise) for any spiritual battles....matter of fact I think there's more in the gospels and the rest of the New Testament for that matter - that challenge us to reflect on our own ways rather than looking to call out devil spirits for an imaginary Advanced Class brawl.
….i can do without the seeing-devil-spirits-behind-every-windmill mentality.....
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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