If Joe Believer hadn't given their financial assets to The Way, they would have probably thrown it away for someone else.
You know, like, The Government.
Umm.......I don't think that was the point of Collateral Damage's thread, nor is it mine.
On so many levels, the wierwille & co. agenda was to keep the "believer" subservient: 1) obedient, 2) loyal, 3) flexible -- ready to move, 4) travel light (very little possessions), 5) witnessing and selling the soap, 6) no need for long-term planning/ God will be there for you, 7) twi will tell you how to live and prioritize your life, etc.
There was just SO MUCH MORE than "giving financial assets to The Way." lol
Quote: ".........I realized how crumby the long-term TWI plan is for those out in the field. Find a menial job, work hard and don't rock the boat. Try to witness but we only need seats for the class- if it's just a connection, move it along. SELL SELL!!!! Find an apartment, move every few years, drive a 5 year+ model car (and keep that cardboard so you don't mess up the driveway). Long-term planning? You don't need that. God's got you. I woke up one day to realize my parents have no retirement and no equity of ANY kind."
Umm.......I don't think that was the point of Collateral Damage's thread, nor is it mine.
On so many levels, the wierwille & co. agenda was to keep the "believer" subservient: 1) obedient, 2) loyal, 3) flexible -- ready to move, 4) travel light (very little possessions), 5) witnessing and selling the soap, 6) no need for long-term planning/ God will be there for you, 7) twi will tell you how to live and prioritize your life, etc.
There was just SO MUCH MORE than "giving financial assets to The Way." lol
Quote: ".........I realized how crumby the long-term TWI plan is for those out in the field. Find a menial job, work hard and don't rock the boat. Try to witness but we only need seats for the class- if it's just a connection, move it along. SELL SELL!!!! Find an apartment, move every few years, drive a 5 year+ model car (and keep that cardboard so you don't mess up the driveway). Long-term planning? You don't need that. God's got you. I woke up one day to realize my parents have no retirement and no equity of ANY kind."
I believe I was in total agreement with you.
I can rephrase.
"If Joe Believer hadn't given heart and mind and soul and spirit and pnema hagion to VPW, it is likely he would have fallen for something else just as stupid maybe even more idiotic instead . . . and that points to bigger questions on how to fix this mess"
Two things that Collateral Damage emphasized throughout his thread: 1) The menial subservience to those ON THE FIELD and 2) Financial malfeasance and exploitation of faithful followers [i.e. parents had given decades of twi-service and had no equity/financial future].
Those two driving issues were staple reasons why I, too, began dissenting from twi-dogma since the early '80s.
From the field perspective.......go to twig, witness, go to twig coordinator meetings, set-up crews, run classes, no weekends, working menial jobs, scrapping money together for next major event, had to keep updating advance class status, etc.......yielding no equity, no home mortgage, no family vacations, no hope in sight of getting off twi's treadmill. Year after year. And, twi "wonders" why people exit and NEVER RETURN?
Talk about callousness and a conscience seared with a hot iron. Modern-day Pharisees and hypocrites in upper-tier levels.
Two things that Collateral Damage emphasized throughout his thread: 1) The menial subservience to those ON THE FIELD and 2) Financial malfeasance and exploitation of faithful followers [i.e. parents had given decades of twi-service and had no equity/financial future].
Those two driving issues were staple reasons why I, too, began dissenting from twi-dogma since the early '80s.
From the field perspective.......go to twig, witness, go to twig coordinator meetings, set-up crews, run classes, no weekends, working menial jobs, scrapping money together for next major event, had to keep updating advance class status, etc.......yielding no equity, no home mortgage, no family vacations, no hope in sight of getting off twi's treadmill. Year after year. And, twi "wonders" why people exit and NEVER RETURN?
Talk about callousness and a conscience seared with a hot iron. Modern-day Pharisees and hypocrites in upper-tier levels.
I did learn how to "stretch" coffee, though. So, that's nice.
.....SNIP.....From the field perspective.......go to twig, witness, go to twig coordinator meetings, set-up crews, run classes, no weekends, working menial jobs, scrapping money together for next major event, had to keep updating advance class status, etc.......yielding no equity, no home mortgage, no family vacations, no hope in sight of getting off twi's treadmill. Year after year. And, twi "wonders" why people exit and NEVER RETURN?
Talk about callousness and a conscience seared with a hot iron. Modern-day Pharisees and hypocrites in upper-tier levels.
that's why when TWI hands you a lemon you make a whiskey sour...and....
...you renew your mind into thinking major ministry events are also family vacations....enjoy my slide show:
-click- here's me and the family at the rock of ages - that's me holding the sign "will SIT for food"
-click- here's me and the family at weekend in the word - that's me on the right asking some clergy for gas money
-click- here's me and the family at corps week - that's me at the payphone trying to drum up more sponsorship
As the years click by, it becomes more apparent to me that a solid foundation in life (so often neglected, or derailed by swindlers and carnival barkers selling their wares that deceivingly exploit the young and vulnerable) yields exponential benefits. And, when I say "solid foundation" that includes: 1) Faith, hope and charitable love, 2) Embracing family, friends and loved ones, 3) Educational and career paths of opportunity, 4) Church, community, club and/or neighbor associations, 5) Financial plan to strengthen
You know, that sounds like a reasonable formula for a balanced life. Let's look at where TWI is on this scale.
1. Faith, hope, charitable love - faith replaced by mental gymnastics, hope killed by the heavy hand of the leaders, love is twisted and hidden behind caste systems and fake smiles
2. Embracing family, friends, loved ones - Family ties strained due to "true household" teachings, friends are either "innies" who can talk to each other without ratting each other out to leadership, assigned friends by assigning fellowships, or "friends" you are selling a class to. Loved ones? Strained relationships and meaningless sacrifices.
3. Education? Career? - hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Education plan is nobody goes to college with a student loan, because it's debt. Career? Maybe you too can come live in a trailer and work for a pittance so your kids can get a free education at Bowling Green University. You know, the education you could never obtain because you're in a cult?
4. Community, neighbors - pretty much universally hate the Way. On the field, neighbors don't know you - they know your landlord who they can call with complaints. Many complaints are parking - due to the Way trying to run their church in areas not zoned for commercial activity - so they use up all the residential parking. I mean at least community churches buy their own parking. Instead of investing in a more permanent structure as the rest of the culture does with churches to show investment in the community, the way survives on meetings in free library rooms, community centers, apartment complex common areas, anywhere free or cheap. They use communities like they use people.
5. Financial plan to strengthen? - hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 15% abundant sharing or "God won't even look in your direction". Send all your money in to HQ. Don't get in debt by investing in yourself for business reasons or education. The budget guidelines from their leadership structure says 80% of all money goes to HQ, 20% stays on the field. The 20% that stays usually goes to pay one salary for a regional representative. This is a financial plan to strengthen kind of like the Catholic church - bring all the money in and build lavish testaments to worship. Polish up that auditorium that gets little to no use during the week, and has about 80 people sitting in it directly even listening to the teaching, which is masked behind crappy music, sucked dry of any personality, and manipulated by the puppet master behind the scenes.
So on a scale of 1 to 10, TWI ranks EPIC FAIL.
Just remember this: Twi is sitting on a nest egg of $64 MILLION that was amassed thru decades of exploitation --- so they, unlike what they preach, are VERY INTERESTED in watching their investments/monies accrue each and every year. They certainly don't mind that their followers drive oil-leaking beaters to menial jobs. Nor do they help to fund any type of witnessing or class events in your area. That dime is on YOU. They know how to shame and guilt the innies out of every last lingering penny. And so it goes...........
No retirement, No equity.......No problem.
At least, NOT for twi.
Correct. TWI always has money. TWI's followers - not so much.
What they do is anti-Christ. There's no Christ like community involvement. No feeding the hungry or helping house the homeless.
Here's some bible verses, now go believe for your next meal. Renew your mind if the Dr. tells you something's wrong. Not "what can we do to help?" That would mean we don't believe what we're teaching.
4. Community, neighbors - pretty much universally hate the Way. On the field, neighbors don't know you - they know your landlord who they can call with complaints. Many complaints are parking - due to the Way trying to run their church in areas not zoned for commercial activity - so they use up all the residential parking. I mean at least community churches buy their own parking. Instead of investing in a more permanent structure as the rest of the culture does with churches to show investment in the community, the way survives on meetings in free library rooms, community centers, apartment complex common areas, anywhere free or cheap. They use communities like they use people.
EXACTLY.
Since twi refuses to invest in each state, in a small-scale brc........corps and adv class grads are forced to scavenge around the city for FREE meeting/class rooms. Translation: Finding a "free" room means clean-up, fix-up, set-up to utilize......and tear-down, put-away, store tables/chairs because it might be used next day by another group. Which means......LOTS of extra time and work for the set-up crew......so it's NOT REALLY "FREE."
The field people pay dearly for this.
The field people are fleeced of their time, work and hard-earned money (via abs).
When I was a limb coordinator in an average-sized state.......the annual abundant sharing totals were hitting $180,000. For a period of time, we were NOT salaried......just got petty cash reimbursements. That's quite a bit of money to siphon off a state without having to "invest" much. At NO time, did the region/trunk personnel think to offer a monthly allowance for room rental. Heck, even our limb meetings.......we were supposed to find a free room. And then.......there were times when we had a special class, ie Rise and Expansion Class, there was a "registration fee" by each student that helped to cover room rental.
Why is it.......ALL the heavy-lifting, heavy-"believing to move the word" (cough, cough) HAS TO BE DONE BY THE FIELD PEOPLE ??
The staff at headquarters are PAID to clean bathrooms, polish brass, sweep floors......and the abundant sharing PAYS for the auditorium. Not so in all those far-away states that scramble month after month to put classes/meetings together......cleaning soiled bathrooms and meeting rooms, leaving them better than they found them....and getting home at 11pm, fall into bed and do it all over again for the next class session.
What lazy-assed, arrogant bastards......to feed off the blood, sweat, tears and stress of the faithful followers on the field.
exposes the long-term plan of twi FOR THOSE ON THE FIELD
Why restrict or limit it to those on the field, sky? Think it was any different for the staff at HQ? BTW, no social securities were withheld from their "on a need basis only" pay until TWI was forced - by changes in the law - to pay it. Might not have mattered much for some... but for others, it meant needing to work just to qualify for it.
On 11/20/2016 at 8:00 AM, skyrider said:
no retirement and no equity of ANY kind
Brings to mind a 35 or 40 year old conversation with Bob Wierwille (who was also reknowned for commenting that it would be easy to live on what the Way wasted or threw away...)
In short, I think it all ties into the flawed notion of thinking that the church (of the body) started on the day of Pentecost (in Acts 2)... when it appeared that it was only going to be a relatively short (few years) time until Christ returned to set up His kingdom here on earth. So, it may have made perfectly good sense nearly 2000 years ago for them to sell everything and lay it at the apostle's feet, and have all things common. It's was just never meant for us to think or try to operate like that... 'cause it don't work. Didn't back then, either, when Christ didn't return when or as they thought he would. Which is why there ended up being poor saints in Jerusalem. They were quite literally, poor... meaning, financially strapped. And as far as Paul taking up offerings to take to Jerusalem?... well, again, that was what appears to have been right back then. I think it was God's way of covering for the nation of Israel's failure to believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, even after his resurrection. But just because it was right back then does not automatically mean that is the way that the church is supposed to operate today. That would be man simply trying to live in the current economy, using the guidelines that were given and intended for a different economy. At best, it may have sporadic or limited results. And at worst, it results in widespread poverty. It ain't rocket science.
2) I experienced both worlds (years on hq-staff and years running classes/mtgs on field)......and "the field" was MUCH harder
hmmm.... perhaps timing and differing perspectives makes a difference.
after the POOP hit the fan, it seems one of the first "knee jerk" responses was to raise salaries of those on staff at HQ. Of course, I was gone by that time, so I can't personally attest to it (although others that we were close to did.) And on the field, there was much (MUCH) greater flexibility and freedom, both financially and with pretty much a complete absence of personal (spiritual ?) oversight. So, I'm greatly inclined to see it the other way around...
hmmm.... perhaps timing and differing perspectives makes a difference.
......perhaps differing levels of involvement make all the difference.
On the field, being a country, limb or branch coordinator.......was difficult and stressful. There were so many varying tasks to oversee......so many balls to juggle. Far more difficult than being a department coordinator at hq, imo.
Depending on one's level of commitment/involvement on the field......set the stage for Collateral Damage's thread:
Quote: ".........I realized how crumby the long-term TWI plan is for those out in the field. Find a menial job, work hard and don't rock the boat. Try to witness but we only need seats for the class- if it's just a connection, move it along. SELL SELL!!!! Find an apartment, move every few years, drive a 5 year+ model car (and keep that cardboard so you don't mess up the driveway). Long-term planning? You don't need that. God's got you. I woke up one day to realize my parents have no retirement and no equity of ANY kind."
On the field, being a country, limb or branch coordinator.......was difficult and stressful. There were so many varying tasks to oversee......so many balls to juggle. Far more difficult than being a department coordinator at hq, imo
Perhaps. But there were far more on staff than were lofty department coordinators. So maybe the difference relates more to whether it's viewed from "top down" rather than from bottom up. (Though, I realize how hard it may be for anyone as deeply involved as either of us apparently were to view anything from bottom up...)
Thanks for amplifying this concept, skyrider. My perspective is from a perfect, stereotypical Wafer from birth, compliant unto the last detail. We were bred to contribute to Mecca:
Live around other believers (read CORPS) or MOVE to be in closer proximity them
Expected to help at EVERY function (free labor) from planning, parking, set-up, cleaning, etc. and scout out free locations (or host ourselves, but most of us had crappy apartments and reached out allowable limit with the landlords)
Work Hardily in school to go to a university
Find a post-secondary school with other believers (very important) and dissuaded from other ideas /classes that challenged our beliefs or time to help win others
BUILD THE BASE and get numbers. A class every quarter was pushed at all costs, far above content and spiritual enrichment.
Although not explicitly mandated, implied to get a middle-class job that did NOT in any way impact our Sunday, Fellowship, or time to give to classes. This amounted to lower-middle class jobs and to drop any other position that made you work on those times (just look at the current WAY DISCIPLES model and their love of Panera for low-paying, highly flexible schedules)
Tithe/ABS as religiously as possible. Only once was I talked to in person about my name being off of a weekly ABS blue form.
Not to get too into finance because "the love of money is the root of all evil". Stocks being controlled by the Adversary
Financial planning for Wafers was dismal, including a college workshop where I was told to expect a windfall from a dying relative to pay for a house/college. Really? All of my family are poor Wafers with nothing to leave but a name tag. They asked to see our monthly budget in college and EXPECTED ABS to come out, even if we were not earning an income. Cutting of the hose of blessings, you know. There was a small series on how to save for a car or larger purchase, but that was essentially explain how a monthly budget worked.
Keep you head down, don't do anything with money, live a quiet lower-middle income life, donate all free time/money to the cause, and WIN WIN WIN those paychecks souls.
It's as sad as it is reassuring that those with titles/responsibilities in the establishment had similar experiences. God was the final Giver- put your head down and do his work now and he will take care of you. Don't you dare take thought for the morrow. Well, I am now baby! I'll retire with over a million in my bank, a pension, two paid-for houses, and the knowledge that I would have had nothing if I didn't leave the Matrix. I am creating the windfall for my children that the Way took from my family.
After the POOP hit the fan, it seems one of the first "knee jerk" responses was to raise salaries of those on staff at HQ.
The best i know is the only reason the way international raised pay (around 1999-2000) was they were paying staffers so poorly (and illegally) on the old "need basis" scale that they had to at least bump pay to minimum wage to avoid potential legal repercussions.
OldSkool - long time, no see. Where have you been hiding?
Well, went through a much needed divorce, spent way too much time in various and sundry bars, basically forgot about twice for quite some time, and lately I have decided to get back to God. I'm learning to pick up the basics, and especially discard TWI garbage. I'd love to talk more via pm. it's good to be back though!
Well, went through a much needed divorce, spent way too much time in various and sundry bars, basically forgot about twice for quite some time, and lately I have decided to get back to God. I'm learning to pick up the basics, and especially discard TWI garbage. I'd love to talk more via pm. it's good to be back though!
Good to see you OldSkool. Happy Thanksgiving to you and all Greasespotters too :) I'll catch up via PM too....
On 11/23/2016 at 10:25 AM, CollateralDamage said:
Thanks for amplifying this concept, skyrider. My perspective is from a perfect, stereotypical Wafer from birth, compliant unto the last detail. We were bred to contribute to Mecca:
Live around other believers (read CORPS) or MOVE to be in closer proximity them
Expected to help at EVERY function (free labor) from planning, parking, set-up, cleaning, etc. and scout out free locations (or host ourselves, but most of us had crappy apartments and reached out allowable limit with the landlords)
Work Hardily in school to go to a university
Find a post-secondary school with other believers (very important) and dissuaded from other ideas /classes that challenged our beliefs or time to help win others
BUILD THE BASE and get numbers. A class every quarter was pushed at all costs, far above content and spiritual enrichment.
Although not explicitly mandated, implied to get a middle-class job that did NOT in any way impact our Sunday, Fellowship, or time to give to classes. This amounted to lower-middle class jobs and to drop any other position that made you work on those times (just look at the current WAY DISCIPLES model and their love of Panera for low-paying, highly flexible schedules)
Tithe/ABS as religiously as possible. Only once was I talked to in person about my name being off of a weekly ABS blue form.
Not to get too into finance because "the love of money is the root of all evil". Stocks being controlled by the Adversary
Financial planning for Wafers was dismal, including a college workshop where I was told to expect a windfall from a dying relative to pay for a house/college. Really? All of my family are poor Wafers with nothing to leave but a name tag. They asked to see our monthly budget in college and EXPECTED ABS to come out, even if we were not earning an income. Cutting of the hose of blessings, you know. There was a small series on how to save for a car or larger purchase, but that was essentially explain how a monthly budget worked.
Keep you head down, don't do anything with money, live a quiet lower-middle income life, donate all free time/money to the cause, and WIN WIN WIN those paychecks souls.
It's as sad as it is reassuring that those with titles/responsibilities in the establishment had similar experiences. God was the final Giver- put your head down and do his work now and he will take care of you. Don't you dare take thought for the morrow. Well, I am now baby! I'll retire with over a million in my bank, a pension, two paid-for houses, and the knowledge that I would have had nothing if I didn't leave the Matrix. I am creating the windfall for my children that the Way took from my family.
Wierwille instituted an all-or-nothing, black/white twi-ideology. Most all of his public banter was to scoff at higher education or "getting ahead." Heck, just believe God and everything will be fine.....live in the present, that's all that matters. Of course, he cherry-picked those verses that substantiated this message.
Through the years, I have found many wonderful, dedicated Christians who were highly professional doing God's works......i.e. doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc. You know, men and women who lead professional lives and STILL (gasp!) are deeply involved in church work and charitable organizations. Here's a novel concept.....Why can't we do both -- be about the Lord's work AND healthily providing for family and future concerns? Why did wierwille/twi compartmentalize every aspect into little boxes rather than the whole of the individual? Why the teaching and living on a "needs-basis?"
As we continue to unravel the twisted theocracy and ideology of wierwille doctrine.......I believe that we will find that he skewed and skewered the scriptures, time and again, to manipulate and exploit his followers. Whether it was education, career or one's family.........twi undermines the individual at every juncture.
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waysider
Yeah, but Uncle (he wasn't really my uncle) Harry said retirement plans were for saps. You don't think he might have been jivin', do you?
edit: grammar
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Bolshevik
If Joe Believer hadn't given their financial assets to The Way, they would have probably thrown it away for someone else.
You know, like, The Government.
LINK
There's a slim chance The Government will take it all anyway. Which is certainly more than enough reason to panic.
Does The Government know there's $64 million to question?
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skyrider
Umm.......I don't think that was the point of Collateral Damage's thread, nor is it mine.
On so many levels, the wierwille & co. agenda was to keep the "believer" subservient: 1) obedient, 2) loyal, 3) flexible -- ready to move, 4) travel light (very little possessions), 5) witnessing and selling the soap, 6) no need for long-term planning/ God will be there for you, 7) twi will tell you how to live and prioritize your life, etc.
There was just SO MUCH MORE than "giving financial assets to The Way." lol
Quote: ".........I realized how crumby the long-term TWI plan is for those out in the field. Find a menial job, work hard and don't rock the boat. Try to witness but we only need seats for the class- if it's just a connection, move it along. SELL SELL!!!! Find an apartment, move every few years, drive a 5 year+ model car (and keep that cardboard so you don't mess up the driveway). Long-term planning? You don't need that. God's got you. I woke up one day to realize my parents have no retirement and no equity of ANY kind."
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Bolshevik
I believe I was in total agreement with you.
I can rephrase.
"If Joe Believer hadn't given heart and mind and soul and spirit and pnema hagion to VPW, it is likely he would have fallen for something else just as stupid maybe even more idiotic instead . . . and that points to bigger questions on how to fix this mess"
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skyrider
Two things that Collateral Damage emphasized throughout his thread: 1) The menial subservience to those ON THE FIELD and 2) Financial malfeasance and exploitation of faithful followers [i.e. parents had given decades of twi-service and had no equity/financial future].
Those two driving issues were staple reasons why I, too, began dissenting from twi-dogma since the early '80s.
From the field perspective.......go to twig, witness, go to twig coordinator meetings, set-up crews, run classes, no weekends, working menial jobs, scrapping money together for next major event, had to keep updating advance class status, etc.......yielding no equity, no home mortgage, no family vacations, no hope in sight of getting off twi's treadmill. Year after year. And, twi "wonders" why people exit and NEVER RETURN?
Talk about callousness and a conscience seared with a hot iron. Modern-day Pharisees and hypocrites in upper-tier levels.
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waysider
I did learn how to "stretch" coffee, though. So, that's nice.
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T-Bone
that's why when TWI hands you a lemon you make a whiskey sour...and....
...you renew your mind into thinking major ministry events are also family vacations....enjoy my slide show:
-click- here's me and the family at the rock of ages - that's me holding the sign "will SIT for food"
-click- here's me and the family at weekend in the word - that's me on the right asking some clergy for gas money
-click- here's me and the family at corps week - that's me at the payphone trying to drum up more sponsorship
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chockfull
You know, that sounds like a reasonable formula for a balanced life. Let's look at where TWI is on this scale.
1. Faith, hope, charitable love - faith replaced by mental gymnastics, hope killed by the heavy hand of the leaders, love is twisted and hidden behind caste systems and fake smiles
2. Embracing family, friends, loved ones - Family ties strained due to "true household" teachings, friends are either "innies" who can talk to each other without ratting each other out to leadership, assigned friends by assigning fellowships, or "friends" you are selling a class to. Loved ones? Strained relationships and meaningless sacrifices.
3. Education? Career? - hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Education plan is nobody goes to college with a student loan, because it's debt. Career? Maybe you too can come live in a trailer and work for a pittance so your kids can get a free education at Bowling Green University. You know, the education you could never obtain because you're in a cult?
4. Community, neighbors - pretty much universally hate the Way. On the field, neighbors don't know you - they know your landlord who they can call with complaints. Many complaints are parking - due to the Way trying to run their church in areas not zoned for commercial activity - so they use up all the residential parking. I mean at least community churches buy their own parking. Instead of investing in a more permanent structure as the rest of the culture does with churches to show investment in the community, the way survives on meetings in free library rooms, community centers, apartment complex common areas, anywhere free or cheap. They use communities like they use people.
5. Financial plan to strengthen? - hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 15% abundant sharing or "God won't even look in your direction". Send all your money in to HQ. Don't get in debt by investing in yourself for business reasons or education. The budget guidelines from their leadership structure says 80% of all money goes to HQ, 20% stays on the field. The 20% that stays usually goes to pay one salary for a regional representative. This is a financial plan to strengthen kind of like the Catholic church - bring all the money in and build lavish testaments to worship. Polish up that auditorium that gets little to no use during the week, and has about 80 people sitting in it directly even listening to the teaching, which is masked behind crappy music, sucked dry of any personality, and manipulated by the puppet master behind the scenes.
So on a scale of 1 to 10, TWI ranks EPIC FAIL.
Correct. TWI always has money. TWI's followers - not so much.
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JayDee
What they do is anti-Christ. There's no Christ like community involvement. No feeding the hungry or helping house the homeless.
Here's some bible verses, now go believe for your next meal. Renew your mind if the Dr. tells you something's wrong. Not "what can we do to help?" That would mean we don't believe what we're teaching.
What a toxic gospel they teach.
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skyrider
EXACTLY.
Since twi refuses to invest in each state, in a small-scale brc........corps and adv class grads are forced to scavenge around the city for FREE meeting/class rooms. Translation: Finding a "free" room means clean-up, fix-up, set-up to utilize......and tear-down, put-away, store tables/chairs because it might be used next day by another group. Which means......LOTS of extra time and work for the set-up crew......so it's NOT REALLY "FREE."
The field people pay dearly for this.
The field people are fleeced of their time, work and hard-earned money (via abs).
When I was a limb coordinator in an average-sized state.......the annual abundant sharing totals were hitting $180,000. For a period of time, we were NOT salaried......just got petty cash reimbursements. That's quite a bit of money to siphon off a state without having to "invest" much. At NO time, did the region/trunk personnel think to offer a monthly allowance for room rental. Heck, even our limb meetings.......we were supposed to find a free room. And then.......there were times when we had a special class, ie Rise and Expansion Class, there was a "registration fee" by each student that helped to cover room rental.
Why is it.......ALL the heavy-lifting, heavy-"believing to move the word" (cough, cough) HAS TO BE DONE BY THE FIELD PEOPLE ??
The staff at headquarters are PAID to clean bathrooms, polish brass, sweep floors......and the abundant sharing PAYS for the auditorium. Not so in all those far-away states that scramble month after month to put classes/meetings together......cleaning soiled bathrooms and meeting rooms, leaving them better than they found them....and getting home at 11pm, fall into bed and do it all over again for the next class session.
What lazy-assed, arrogant bastards......to feed off the blood, sweat, tears and stress of the faithful followers on the field.
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Rocky
For emphasis... yes, we're talking about YOU, Rosie and JYDL.
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Rocky
Btw, even the Mormon church invests in their communities.
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TLC
Why restrict or limit it to those on the field, sky? Think it was any different for the staff at HQ? BTW, no social securities were withheld from their "on a need basis only" pay until TWI was forced - by changes in the law - to pay it. Might not have mattered much for some... but for others, it meant needing to work just to qualify for it.
Brings to mind a 35 or 40 year old conversation with Bob Wierwille (who was also reknowned for commenting that it would be easy to live on what the Way wasted or threw away...)
In short, I think it all ties into the flawed notion of thinking that the church (of the body) started on the day of Pentecost (in Acts 2)... when it appeared that it was only going to be a relatively short (few years) time until Christ returned to set up His kingdom here on earth. So, it may have made perfectly good sense nearly 2000 years ago for them to sell everything and lay it at the apostle's feet, and have all things common. It's was just never meant for us to think or try to operate like that... 'cause it don't work. Didn't back then, either, when Christ didn't return when or as they thought he would. Which is why there ended up being poor saints in Jerusalem. They were quite literally, poor... meaning, financially strapped. And as far as Paul taking up offerings to take to Jerusalem?... well, again, that was what appears to have been right back then. I think it was God's way of covering for the nation of Israel's failure to believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, even after his resurrection. But just because it was right back then does not automatically mean that is the way that the church is supposed to operate today. That would be man simply trying to live in the current economy, using the guidelines that were given and intended for a different economy. At best, it may have sporadic or limited results. And at worst, it results in widespread poverty. It ain't rocket science.
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skyrider
Several reasons: 1) Expanding on Collateral Damage's thread which emphasized "those on the field"
2) I experienced both worlds (years on hq-staff and years running classes/mtgs on field)......and "the field" was MUCH harder
3) Since lcm's ouster, lawyers got involved and advised twi towards a retirement/pension plan and no overtime work w/o pay
4) Those on the field, work late into the night (overtime)......WITH NO PAY OR PERKS
5) Oftentimes, for those on the field......weekends are full of activity [staffers not so much--except make appearance on sunday]]
6) There are many reasons why those life-long staffers do NOT want to go back on the field and run classes
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TLC
hmmm.... perhaps timing and differing perspectives makes a difference.
after the POOP hit the fan, it seems one of the first "knee jerk" responses was to raise salaries of those on staff at HQ. Of course, I was gone by that time, so I can't personally attest to it (although others that we were close to did.) And on the field, there was much (MUCH) greater flexibility and freedom, both financially and with pretty much a complete absence of personal (spiritual ?) oversight. So, I'm greatly inclined to see it the other way around...
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skyrider
......perhaps differing levels of involvement make all the difference.
On the field, being a country, limb or branch coordinator.......was difficult and stressful. There were so many varying tasks to oversee......so many balls to juggle. Far more difficult than being a department coordinator at hq, imo.
Depending on one's level of commitment/involvement on the field......set the stage for Collateral Damage's thread:
Quote: ".........I realized how crumby the long-term TWI plan is for those out in the field. Find a menial job, work hard and don't rock the boat. Try to witness but we only need seats for the class- if it's just a connection, move it along. SELL SELL!!!! Find an apartment, move every few years, drive a 5 year+ model car (and keep that cardboard so you don't mess up the driveway). Long-term planning? You don't need that. God's got you. I woke up one day to realize my parents have no retirement and no equity of ANY kind."
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TLC
Perhaps. But there were far more on staff than were lofty department coordinators. So maybe the difference relates more to whether it's viewed from "top down" rather than from bottom up. (Though, I realize how hard it may be for anyone as deeply involved as either of us apparently were to view anything from bottom up...)
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CollateralDamage
Thanks for amplifying this concept, skyrider. My perspective is from a perfect, stereotypical Wafer from birth, compliant unto the last detail. We were bred to contribute to Mecca:
paycheckssouls.It's as sad as it is reassuring that those with titles/responsibilities in the establishment had similar experiences. God was the final Giver- put your head down and do his work now and he will take care of you. Don't you dare take thought for the morrow. Well, I am now baby! I'll retire with over a million in my bank, a pension, two paid-for houses, and the knowledge that I would have had nothing if I didn't leave the Matrix. I am creating the windfall for my children that the Way took from my family.
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T-Bone
Great post Collateral D !!!!
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OldSkool
The best i know is the only reason the way international raised pay (around 1999-2000) was they were paying staffers so poorly (and illegally) on the old "need basis" scale that they had to at least bump pay to minimum wage to avoid potential legal repercussions.
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Twinky
OldSkool - long time, no see. Where have you been hiding?
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OldSkool
Well, went through a much needed divorce, spent way too much time in various and sundry bars, basically forgot about twice for quite some time, and lately I have decided to get back to God. I'm learning to pick up the basics, and especially discard TWI garbage. I'd love to talk more via pm. it's good to be back though!
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chockfull
Good to see you OldSkool. Happy Thanksgiving to you and all Greasespotters too :) I'll catch up via PM too....
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skyrider
Wierwille instituted an all-or-nothing, black/white twi-ideology. Most all of his public banter was to scoff at higher education or "getting ahead." Heck, just believe God and everything will be fine.....live in the present, that's all that matters. Of course, he cherry-picked those verses that substantiated this message.
Through the years, I have found many wonderful, dedicated Christians who were highly professional doing God's works......i.e. doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc. You know, men and women who lead professional lives and STILL (gasp!) are deeply involved in church work and charitable organizations. Here's a novel concept.....Why can't we do both -- be about the Lord's work AND healthily providing for family and future concerns? Why did wierwille/twi compartmentalize every aspect into little boxes rather than the whole of the individual? Why the teaching and living on a "needs-basis?"
As we continue to unravel the twisted theocracy and ideology of wierwille doctrine.......I believe that we will find that he skewed and skewered the scriptures, time and again, to manipulate and exploit his followers. Whether it was education, career or one's family.........twi undermines the individual at every juncture.
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