Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

One thing I found was an article titled “Symbols are short cuts for our brain”  which starts off “We are surrounded by symbols, they are woven into society so inextricably that we don’t even notice them. And yet everyday we see them, understand them and they guide our behaviour. Tricky little devils. The Changing Minds Organisation explains, “Symbols are communications that have specific meaning. Usually visual, symbols act as communication short-cuts that convey one or more messages that have been previously learned by both the sender and the recipient.”

YES! Shortcuts for our brain!

 

2 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I was so flabbergasted and never did comply and so I dropped the whole thing...Oh well… but ultimately this incident led to their loss and my gain. I never attempted to write another song promoting TWI’s ideology. I think the incident caused one of the biggest rifts in my TWI-belief system…perhaps the beginning of the end to cult tyranny in my life.   If it was made into a cheesy music video – it would be like one of those stories about a musician who refused to sellout to commercialism. 

Cognitive dissonance that festered, perhaps, to ultimately free you from the power of twi symbols. 

[Rocky]

I realize this is anecdotal and not based on aggregated data, but I wonder for how many of you this might ring true. 

From a 2/25/2021 Twitter post from a young minister, @Caitlin J. Stout

A friend asked the other day what percentage of people I went to youth group with “deconstructed” and what percentage remained evangelical. As I thought about it, I realized that for the most part it was the kids who took their faith the most seriously who eventually walked away.

 

[T-Bone]

5 hours ago, Rocky said:

I realize this is anecdotal and not based on aggregated data, but I wonder for how many of you this might ring true. 

From a 2/25/2021 Twitter post from a young minister, @Caitlin J. Stout

A friend asked the other day what percentage of people I went to youth group with “deconstructed” and what percentage remained evangelical. As I thought about it, I realized that for the most part it was the kids who took their faith the most seriously who eventually walked away.

 

I read some more of what that person said when I clicked on  your link…and I can relate to what they said – the predicament sounds familiar…for me it brought to mind a question  –

what follows after personal experiences and/or maturing in your faith when you find your idea of God and how to interpret the Bible differ from your church?

here’s some more excerpts from that Twitter post:

"Those of us who tearfully promised that we would follow Jesus anywhere eventually followed him out the door...

They told us to read the Bible and take it seriously and then mocked us for becoming “social justice warriors.”...

Now they’re warning us not to deconstruct to the point of meaninglessness. But they took a chisel to God until he fit in a box. They “deconstructed” the concept of love until it allowed them to tolerate sexual abuse, celebrate white supremacy, and look away from kids in cages...

We took the most foundational elements of our faith to their natural conclusions. Folks who deconstruct evangelicalism aren’t drop-outs; they’re graduates."

== == == ==

Sounds like some ex-TWI folks could have written that stuff.

 

Rocky, thanks for another thought-provoking post that inspired me to do some online searching…I found this in a 2019 article of Forbes about a study published in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion that mentioned 1400 respondents who participated in a survey in a Baylor Religion Survey – two researchers Kent and Pieper analyzed the data and had some interesting findings about gender and God and who is likely to take the Bible literally…Interesting stuff but mostly not related to what I think your post is about…but near the end of the article I was struck by the researchers’ hypothesis of the exception to the rule – a subset group – which I think many ex-TWI folks could fit in too…so that part I felt did have something to do with the sentiment expressed in the Twitter posts you referenced. The last paragraph marked in bold red touches on the question I asked above…The Forbes excerpts follow – and below that is the link:

"...So regardless of both denomination and gender, both men and women who had a personal attachment to God tended to view the Bible literally. But why, then, did women more often report a personal attachment?

“Women are more likely [to be attached to God] because women are socialized in an American context to be more vulnerable with one another, more emotionally available, and more sharing,” Kent says. “Men tend to be socialized to be more independent, to not need other people as much.” It's the capacity for intimacy, Kent says, that allows women to form an attachment with God.

There is one exception to this rule, however, Kent says. A small subset of people – men and women – had a close relationship with God and did not tend to take the Bible literally. “We're hypothesizing that these people used to be literalists, and maybe had to get away form a literalist view that doesn't jive with their view of God,” says Kent. “There are groups that want to engage and connect but feel alienated. By taking an interpretive view of the Bible, they can actually maintain that relationship with God.”

from: Forbes - New Research Tells Us Who Is Most Likely To Take The Bible Literally, Feb. 2019 article

Edited April 14, 2021 by T-Bone
formatting and typos

[Rocky]

55 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

"Those of us who tearfully promised that we would follow Jesus anywhere eventually followed him out the door...

They told us to read the Bible and take it seriously and then mocked us for becoming “social justice warriors.”...

Now they’re warning us not to deconstruct to the point of meaninglessness. But they took a chisel to God until he fit in a box. They “deconstructed” the concept of love until it allowed them to tolerate sexual abuse, celebrate white supremacy, and look away from kids in cages...

We took the most foundational elements of our faith to their natural conclusions. Folks who deconstruct evangelicalism aren’t drop-outs; they’re graduates."

Yeah, I picked up on that too. Wonderful insight, IMO.

[Rocky]

57 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

"...So regardless of both denomination and gender, both men and women who had a personal attachment to God tended to view the Bible literally. But why, then, did women more often report a personal attachment?

“Women are more likely [to be attached to God] because women are socialized in an American context to be more vulnerable with one another, more emotionally available, and more sharing,” Kent says. “Men tend to be socialized to be more independent, to not need other people as much.” It's the capacity for intimacy, Kent says, that allows women to form an attachment with God.

There is one exception to this rule, however, Kent says. A small subset of people – men and women – had a close relationship with God and did not tend to take the Bible literally. “We're hypothesizing that these people used to be literalists, and maybe had to get away form a literalist view that doesn't jive with their view of God,” says Kent. “There are groups that want to engage and connect but feel alienated. By taking an interpretive view of the Bible, they can actually maintain that relationship with God.”

IMO, that male/female dichotomy is changing. Men "socialized to be more independent" are, too often, becoming the examples of toxic masculinity.

But I love the imagery of people willing to take risks about their view of God and religion graduating. For a number of years, I've considered that Wierwille's view of God and the bible was far too narrow. He talked about his God being big, but he acted as if God wasn't really so big. Chipping away at him until he fits in a particular box. That box, of course, was the size of his ego. 

That's one big give away on why The Way International was at the beginning and always has been a cult. A high-demand subculture unto itself.

That just doesn't fit with how I understand the bible or God these days. 

[Rocky]

Btw, T-Bone, I very much enjoy that you and I can bounce ideas off of each other and come up with a bigger understanding. 

[T-Bone]

9 hours ago, Rocky said:

Btw, T-Bone, I very much enjoy that you and I can bounce ideas off of each other and come up with a bigger understanding. 

yeah me too...here it's like the New York Stock Exchange only it's the Grease Spot Thought Exchange - where an investment of your 2 cents can go a long way.

[Grace Valerie Claire]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

yeah me too...here it's like the New York Stock Exchange only it's the Grease Spot Thought Exchange - where an investment of your 2 cents can go a long way.

T-Bone, that is hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!

[penworks]

Hi GreaseSpotters,

  This is Charlene checking in to say HI and let you know that you can read a FREE chapter of my memoir about being in the Way during the early 1970s and 1980s. I was on the biblical research team.

To read Chapter One, "Hiding in Plain Sight" click here.

A little about me: 

I am Charlene Lamy Edge formerly known in The Way as Charlene Lamy then Charlene Bishop. I graduated from the second Way Corps in 1973.

My memoir, Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International was published November 21, 2016. It is available in paperback and eBook at major booksellers and independent bookstores. Paperback ISBN: 978-0-9978747-0-9.

In 1970, college students at ECU, who were grads of PFAL, recruited me to The Way. I gave The Way 17 years of my life.

From August 1984 to August 1986 I worked on the Biblical Research Team at Way headquarters in Ohio, specifically on the Aramaic Concordance project.

In 1987, I escaped from The Way headquarters with my family and disassociated myself from the organization for good.

MY WEBSITE: https://charleneedge.com

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by penworks
added a few words

[skyrider]

"My memoir, Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International was published November 21, 2016. It is available in paperback and eBook at major booksellers and independent bookstores. Paperback ISBN: 978-0-9978747-0-9."

This is a GREAT read.  I highly recommend it.  

[jrglade]

Just saw this, read the first chapter and bought the book.  Really intrigued to read it.  I was in for about 4 years only, and got out right after ROA 1982.  So your account should bring back memories as I was in when you were.  Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[Stayed Too Long]

A good article showing different cults

https://frankreport.com/2019/09/08/former-member-the-way-international-biblical-ministry-was-rife-with-sexual-excesses-just-like-other-cults/

[penworks]

On 10/27/2021 at 12:17 AM, Stayed Too Long said:

A good article showing different cults

https://frankreport.com/2019/09/08/former-member-the-way-international-biblical-ministry-was-rife-with-sexual-excesses-just-like-other-cults/

Thanks for posting this. I added a comment there, too.

[Ham]

In a weird way.. I feel that I have escaped the clutches of some God forsaken cult, only to be greeted by open or not so open arms into another far more insidious.  At least I learned the rules, or the lack thereof, from the former one..

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

In a weird way.. I feel that I have escaped the clutches of some God forsaken cult, only to be greeted by open or not so open arms into another far more insidious.  At least I learned the rules, or the lack thereof, from the former one..

Oh? Please tell us more.

[outandabout]

Yes do tell!

[Bolshevik]

[T-Bone]

9 hours ago, Ham said:

In a weird way.. I feel that I have escaped the clutches of some God forsaken cult, only to be greeted by open or not so open arms into another far more insidious.  At least I learned the rules, or the lack thereof, from the former one..

That’s understandable on a thread named Undertow…but rest assured the condition of the water at Grease Spot Café is safe and ideal for surfing…and besides that you've been here before many times...so surf’s up Dude. 

[penworks]

Hi folks,

First, an update on how Undertow is still going strong since its publication five years ago (and a little more).

It's been sold around the USA, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and who knows where else through Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and The Book Depository, which offers free world-wide shipping.

As of 12/31/21, there were 1,475 copies (incudes paperback and ebook) that had been sold.

So, I send a big thank you to Greasespotters for helping me get that story out. It's two stories in one, as Frank Schaffer described it on the front cover of Undertow. The two stories are: my personal one, and one about The Way organization that shows the devious Wierwille at work, up-close.

TODAY cults are still in the news. Diane Sawyer did a special program that aired last night about Heavens' Gate. Here's a link to info:  In Exclusive Interview, Former Cult Member Reveals She 'Never Stepped Foot Out the Door' | PEOPLE.com

So, more people are asking questions about cults. I know you can tell them some good answers.

BTW - some grown up kids of my former Way peers have been contacting me lately, thanking me for Undertow that gives them important and healing info their parents do not or cannot tell them. They are thankful. Some are mad. More voices may be coming here with stories of abusive Way leaders, but also of wonderful recoveries from the darkness of The Way. I'm humbled Undertow has helped them on their journeys.

Stay strong.

Charlene

https://charleneedge.com

 

[Lifted Up]

3 hours ago, penworks said:

Hi folks,

First, an update on how Undertow is still going strong since its publication five years ago (and a little more).

 

 

I think you gave some good reasons why your book is still going strong. One reason is that cult trauma, like any trauma, is lifelong. We old folks are still being affected, and I think others find the book relevant because cults and abusers, no matter how different from each other, use so many common techniques, so today's cult survivors find it relevant.

Do you feel that in many ways we were treated as children in the Way? My best survivor friend is not Way or cult related, but a child abuse survivor who helped start a large national group to fight abuse. A few years ago she suggested a book written by Mike Lew for child abuse survivors to help in my recovery from my Way sexual assault, even though she knew it happened to me as an adult. She understood; it's amazing how much she knows. And I have found the relevance myself in my support group interactions with survivors of church and other child abuse.

 

[penworks]

2 hours ago, Lifted Up said:

Do you feel that in many ways we were treated as children in the Way?

 

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: Wierwille called us Way Corps members his "kids." This habit was deliberate on his part.

Obedience was a primary goal of Wierwille's... he touted God as asking us to obey "His Word." Obey, obey, obey. That's what parents ask children to do.

Infantile people do not question authority. They obey it.

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, penworks said:

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: Wierwille called us Way Corps members his "kids." This habit was deliberate on his part.

Obedience was a primary goal of Wierwille's... he touted God as asking us to obey "His Word." Obey, obey, obey. That's what parents ask children to do.

Infantile people do not question authority. They obey it.

Let's not forget that he purposefully taught that we should be slaves. dromos doulu or something like that.

[WordWolf]

4 hours ago, Rocky said:

Let's not forget that he purposefully taught that we should be slaves. dromos doulu or something like that.

The Way Corps was also called-by him- The Doulos Dromos"- "doulos" being slave/bond-slave, and "dromos" being a course (like a race-course.)  (I never looked this up, this is what he said.)   lcm sometimes rendered "doulos" as "servant" but other times as "bond-slave".   He got that from vpw (lcm never had an original idea.) 

So, it was a course where you signed up, wrote up your most personal experiences, and paid for the privilege.  While there, you were assigned manual labor and told you were now "bond-slaves" and why that was desirable, and turning your back on lifelong servitude to twi was the same as rejecting God Almighty, and he wouldn't even spit in your direction if you did.

Other times, you were called "kids" and told to show up in pajamas for a late meeting, or whatever.

[Rocky]

38 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

The Way Corps was also called-by him- The Doulos Dromos"- "doulos" being slave/bond-slave, and "dromos" being a course (like a race-course.)  (I never looked this up, this is what he said.)   lcm sometimes rendered "doulos" as "servant" but other times as "bond-slave".   He got that from vpw (lcm never had an original idea.) 

So, it was a course where you signed up, wrote up your most personal experiences, and paid for the privilege.  While there, you were assigned manual labor and told you were now "bond-slaves" and why that was desirable, and turning your back on lifelong servitude to twi was the same as rejecting God Almighty, and he wouldn't even spit in your direction if you did.

Other times, you were called "kids" and told to show up in pajamas for a late meeting, or whatever.

Yup. I still remember the blue and gold t-shirts we were given to wear when running 10 Km in the overall trek from somewhere in Indiana (Ball State, maybe) to HQ. I long ago outgrew that shirt but had it for years after that.

[Lifted Up]

19 hours ago, penworks said:

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: Wierwille called us Way Corps members his "kids." This habit was deliberate on his part.

Obedience was a primary goal of Wierwille's... he touted God as asking us to obey "His Word." Obey, obey, obey. That's what parents ask children to do.

Infantile people do not question authority. They obey it.

Thanks for not simply giving your answer, but adding your own reasons. You take the "Edge" off of any doubts I had in saying that!. It took me 38 years to fullly eliminate my blindness and see that, thanks partly to my above mentioned friend. For decades I refused to believe anyone had been sexually assaulted, let alone myself.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Lifted Up
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