Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Ham]

I don't think there is any real escape here.. can't escape from what we were or are..  where do we go from here.. fuurther..

[Ham]

Who am I, who are we, who are..We.  Too many pronouns tonight..  I'd like a nice evening of *us* around a camp fire..

 

[Ham]

A long time ago.. I did not want the campfire to go out..  well, where am I going.. no idea.  Good night dear Friends.

[chockfull]

11 hours ago, Ham said:

Who am I, who are we, who are..We.  Too many pronouns tonight..  I'd like a nice evening of *us* around a camp fire..

 

Hey Hammy good to see you.

Yeah a lot of questions.  I just read this week an article declaring that over 70% of people in the United States profess to be Christian.  That’s a lot even including fuzzy math.  They broke them down into groups - Evangelical Protestants were the largest, Catholic, Non Evangelical Protestant, they even listed my fav cults Mormon and Jehovahs Witnesses as denominations with 16m and 8m as the lower numbered big denominations.

I mean by sheer logic if God functions on grace and love that campfire is going to be fairly large.   I just don’t see that campfire being the narrow angle lens on the first 3 rows of the VPW PW auditorium.  That’s reserved for the zealots soon to implode.

[chockfull]

13 hours ago, penworks said:

Again today another former follower of TWI contacted me through my website. A woman. A woman whose story of abuse by Way leaders broke my heart. She is one of numerous people, men and women, who have sent me similar messages since Undertow was published nearly seven (7) years ago.

I carry these stories are in my heart, and I honor those people's courage to keep on living despite grave wounds. If you are reading this and are one of these people whose story I now know in part, be assured that I admire you and cheer you on in your journey of healing.

 

Great news.  I would expect this type of thing with you being published with your story and so active at the different events focused on cult recovery.  I think John Juedes has also experienced quite a lot of this with people coming to him with personal stories.

I rejoice with you at the positive results of your work and the genuine help you are providing others.

[penworks]

Thank you, chockfull. It's a very humbling experience. Whenever anyone trusts you, you feel honored, right?

Today, I'm looking through old files and just found this little piece I wrote in 2008. It's background stuff for Undertow but didn't make it into the final manuscript. Like a whole lot of other pieces. For what it's worth: 

The myth is broken (on the reasearch team at Way HQ)

My own myth, The Way’s dogma, became unworkable for me.  It needed a blind faith to stay involved with it. I had blind faith no more.  I no longer trusted vp’s integrity, which was shot for me after all those long Literals meetings. 

When I first sat down for my first meeting with the research team I was excited. Thrilled beyond belief that God would call me to such a day, time, and hour, as vpw would say.  With an overwhelming sense of purpose, and an even bigger boost to my ego, I took on a persona of what I thought was biblical literariness.  This biblical literariness is sort of like what I later experienced when, as a freshman at OSU, I would knit my eyebrows and hunch over a book on literary criticism by Charles Lamb in a library cubicle.  I’d emerge hours later, disconnected from the flow of regular time.  I had to reprogram my mind to where I was and what time it was. 

At The Way, I became a fraud, albeit a sincere one.  I thought we were doing honest biblical research until I noticed how subjective it all was, how fraught with politics – [we were told] don’t reveal vp’s blunders, choose the least strident interpretation, make it apply to us today by using today’s words.  It never crossed my mind that the writers of those N.T. books might have had their own interpretations of the words of Jesus.  Indeed, since God authored each and every word, how could they have had such private slants?  Politics of the first century was totally unknown to me.

Note:

The Trial of Socrates

By I.F. Stone

Pg. 16

"Xenophon and Plato may have “heard” Socrates differently on the subject [of kingship] in accordance with their own preconceptions, as disciples so often do.”

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by penworks

[Rocky]

7 hours ago, penworks said:

My own myth, The Way’s dogma, became unworkable for me.  It needed a blind faith to stay involved with it. I had blind faith no more.  I no longer trusted vp’s integrity, which was shot for me after all those long Literals meetings. 

You could, apparently, no longer take Victor's word for it what it all, or any of it, meant.

That expression take his word for it jumped out and SCREAMED at me when I read your comment.

Isn't that why Victor NEEDED young people to join his movement, rather than older, more seasoned researchers with whom he would have been challenged on his numerous claims of what God actually meant?

I was 19 when I first learned of Victor's ministry and his take on "truth." I THOUGHT (at the time) what I responded to was an intellectually honest take on God, scripture and such. But really, reflecting back on my developmental place and emotional/social needs at that moment, I responded to something altogether different, a friendship at a US military base overseas where and when I had few people I felt I had much in common with.

But I digress, for Victor to effectively communicate with and proselytize more intellectually and emotionally mature people would have required him to be willing to listen and relate to people differently than those who eventually came to follow his ministry. But didn't he try reaching people with that kind of maturity for years with  minimal success? Wouldn't his success have required different communication skills? More open minded listening perhaps? More of an open mind to what other people, closer to being peers with him, had to say? People who would listen to him but pose difficult questions. Didn't he actually HAVE people like that come into his orbit... but for reasons unknown he didn't engender the kind of emotional connection he was able to get with the "young people?"

Did Victor have a temperament conducive to actual dialogue that could produce an understanding in two or more individuals which could reasonably be expected to include portions of each person's position. 

Could that be [part of] the reason he built a cult, instead of a community without demands on its followers?

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Rocky
grammar

[penworks]

In my experience, I met plenty of "older adults" in TWI 1970 - 1987.  What I realized after escaping and reflecting on who they were, it became clear to me that none of them were equipped to challenge VPW on his teachings because they, like most of us younger ones, readily accepted the basic assumptions that VP based his biblical beliefs on: the inerrancy of scripture, the cannon of the KJV, and that Christianity was the only avenue to reach "God." And VP was good at deflecting questions.

No serious scholars that I know of took PFAL. There were a few ministers, but they didn't stick around long. 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by penworks

[annio]

15 hours ago, Rocky said:

You could, apparently, no longer take Victor's word for it what it all, or any of it, meant.

That expression take his word for it jumped out and SCREAMED at me when I read your comment.

Isn't that why Victor NEEDED young people to join his movement, rather than older, more seasoned researchers with whom he would have been challenged on his numerous claims of what God actually meant?

I was 19 when I first learned of Victor's ministry and his take on "truth." I THOUGHT (at the time) what I responded to was an intellectually honest take on God, scripture and such. But really, reflecting back on my developmental place and emotional/social needs at that moment, I responded to something altogether different, a friendship at a US military base overseas where and when I had few people I felt I had much in common with.

But I digress, for Victor to effectively communicate with and proselytize more intellectually and emotionally mature people would have required him to be willing to listen and relate to people differently than those who eventually came to follow his ministry. But didn't he try reaching people with that kind of maturity for years with  minimal success? Wouldn't his success have required different communication skills? More open minded listening perhaps? More of an open mind to what other people, closer to being peers with him, had to say? People who would listen to him but pose difficult questions. Didn't he actually HAVE people like that come into his orbit... but for reasons unknown he didn't engender the kind of emotional connection he was able to get with the "young people?"

Did Victor have a temperament conducive to actual dialogue that could produce an understanding in two or more individuals which could reasonably be expected to include portions of each person's position. 

Could that be [part of] the reason he built a cult, instead of a community without demands on its followers?

 

 

INteresting!! Have a few Q's here - I remember him telling us that he had travelled various places and talked with various scholars; I think I used to have a few names in my brain but memory fails now.  Anyone else remember this?

AGREE re: his lack of interest in ACTUALLY deeply investigating and teaching various theological positions. E.g. Dispensationalism. Honest Biblical scholarship would have required him, when teaching a class on understanding the Bible, to have taught that there were OTHER POSITIONS, such as Covenant theology. But NO, there is only ONE WAY to interpret the Bible, MY WAY. Am sure others have posted, but I am just now seeing again more clearly, that his was a Sleight of Hand Trick to say that NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION = the Bible interprets itself = MY INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Anyone know where/how he he came up with this??? Wonder if BG Leonard leaned in this direction?? Thanks to anyone replying!!

[chockfull]

4 hours ago, penworks said:

In my experience, I met plenty of "older adults" in TWI 1970 - 1987.  What I realized after escaping and reflecting on who they were, it became clear to me that none of them were equipped to challenge VPW on his teachings because they, like most of us younger ones, readily accepted the basic assumptions that VP based his biblical beliefs on: the inerrancy of scripture, the cannon of the KJV, and that Christianity was the only avenue to reach "God." And VP was good at deflecting questions.

No serious scholars that I know of took PFAL. There were a few ministers, but they didn't stick around long. 

 

In Craig’s day he would throw tantrums about a lot of research topics.  He hated GMIR in the way mag and they mostly did away with any research there - he wanted to forge his own way in Bible interpretation.  Which took the form of things like the Galatians tapes teachings.  Which was mostly crying about his treatment during the fog years mixed in with seeing devil spirits around everywhere especially with any critics.  He I think does not have an extremely high IQ and so he ran off anyone he perceived as smarter than him in research circles.

He published the Acts book which he did most of the research on.  I think Wayne Clapp was his trusted research associate for most of his endeavors.  Wayne has a masters degree so is more formally educated or was.  

Then Rosalie basically disbanded the research department because there is nothing new to discover in scripture seeing as we already have the truth given to us like it hasn’t been known since the first century 

And the current brain trust is doubling down on PFAL except having modern relevant teachers teach it.  

So basically we have a worldwide ministry whose research roots are ripping off JE Stiles, Bullinger, and the Canadian ministers class complete with characters, repackaging it, and telling an origin story that is every bit as sketchy as Joseph Smiths is in the Mormon religion.

And scholars who appear more Machiavellian than scholarly.

What could go wrong?

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

Then Rosalie basically disbanded the research department because there is nothing new to discover in scripture seeing as we already have the truth given to us like it hasn’t been known since the first century 

And the current brain trust is doubling down on PFAL except having "modern relevant teachers" teach it.  

That, of course, is a brazen dismissiveness of and to intellectual honesty. Gaslighting?

Modern, relevant teachers? Really? Isn't that just packaging their rationalization with a different label?

[penworks]

Rocky, we know there can't be intellectual honesty when there's an agenda to protect. The biblical agenda was that VPW got that special revelation, remember? I call it the Snow Story. God told VP that He would teach VP the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century if he would teach it to others. And the rest of the agenda, in my opinion, has to do with upholding the belief that the original text had no contradictions. Right. And how would you know you have recovered the orignal text if there is no original text in existence to compare your findings to?

Anyway, right, Chockull, what could go wrong? It was wrong from the beginning, in my view, since VPW stole most of his work from others, etc., and had an ego that wouldn't stand others usurping his power.

What a mess he created. And the mess continued. In Undertow, I cite a letter VPW wrote to the Way Corps about a mess he created when members of the 8th Corps challenged his "biblical research," especially his gross ignorance and lack of understanding about what the Aramaic version (actually Syriac, but that's another story) was all about. He kicked them out of The Way Corps training in Emporia and they never returned.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by penworks

[Charity]

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

In Craig’s day he would throw tantrums about a lot of research topics.  He hated GMIR in the way mag and they mostly did away with any research there - he wanted to forge his own way in Bible interpretation.  Which took the form of things like the Galatians tapes teachings.  Which was mostly crying about his treatment during the fog years mixed in with seeing devil spirits around everywhere especially with any critics.  He I think does not have an extremely high IQ and so he ran off anyone he perceived as smarter than him in research circles.

He published the Acts book which he did most of the research on.  I think Wayne Clapp was his trusted research associate for most of his endeavors.  Wayne has a masters degree so is more formally educated or was.  

Then Rosalie basically disbanded the research department because there is nothing new to discover in scripture seeing as we already have the truth given to us like it hasn’t been known since the first century 

And the current brain trust is doubling down on PFAL except having modern relevant teachers teach it.  

So basically we have a worldwide ministry whose research roots are ripping off JE Stiles, Bullinger, and the Canadian ministers class complete with characters, repackaging it, and telling an origin story that is every bit as sketchy as Joseph Smiths is in the Mormon religion.

And scholars who appear more Machiavellian than scholarly.

What could go wrong?

Lots!  My mind is drawing a blank on "Canadian ministers class."  To whom were you referring?  

[Nathan_Jr]

35 minutes ago, Charity said:

Lots!  My mind is drawing a blank on "Canadian ministers class."  To whom were you referring?  

B. G. Leonard https://ctcoftexas.com/about/

[Charity]

5 hours ago, annio said:

INteresting!! Have a few Q's here - I remember him telling us that he had travelled various places and talked with various scholars; I think I used to have a few names in my brain but memory fails now.  Anyone else remember this?

AGREE re: his lack of interest in ACTUALLY deeply investigating and teaching various theological positions. E.g. Dispensationalism. Honest Biblical scholarship would have required him, when teaching a class on understanding the Bible, to have taught that there were OTHER POSITIONS, such as Covenant theology. But NO, there is only ONE WAY to interpret the Bible, MY WAY. Am sure others have posted, but I am just now seeing again more clearly, that his was a Sleight of Hand Trick to say that NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION = the Bible interprets itself = MY INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Anyone know where/how he he came up with this??? Wonder if BG Leonard leaned in this direction?? Thanks to anyone replying!!

Hi Annio, thanks for your post.  Sorry, I have no names, but your mention of the Covenant theology is interesting.  I like the idea of focusing on God's covenants throughout the bible because of the relationship He had with those involved.  Hebrews 8-19 is about the new covenant we have with God through Christ who just so happens to be the mediator of this covenant.  It's great reading.  No wonder vp/twi wanted to demote Jesus' importance in our lives with God and promote the "written word" as his replacement which, as you said, was really the written word according to vp.  

All cult leaders declare he/she has "the truth" as it was revealed to them only.  I can't believe the number of cults that are out there.

[Nathan_Jr]

27 minutes ago, Charity said:

All cult leaders declare he/she has "the truth" as it was revealed to them only.

There's your sign. Every time.

The one claiming to have the truth is the one who surely does not.

[Rocky]

30 minutes ago, Charity said:

No wonder vp/twi wanted to demote Jesus' importance in our lives with God and promote the "written word" as his replacement which, as you [annio] said, was really the written word according to vp.  

 

[penworks]

Part of TWI's history, in my view, is how a uniquely American belief helped shape VPW's teachings: that America was founded to be a Christian nation.

About 35 years ago, I examined this belief in a paper I wrote for a creative writing class at what was then called Valencia Community College in Orlando, FL.

I've posted it here for anyone interested in the fundamentalist aspect of TWI.

Note - my name at the time I wrote the paper was Charlene Bishop. I was still married to my first husband, T*m Bish*p, from the Rye, NY fellowship. We married the day after we graduated from the Second Corps in 1973.

In Undertow, I gave Tim the alias of Ed.

We divorced in 1991.

Cheers!

 

Fund to Freedom_C_Edge.pdf

Edited September 20, 2023 by penworks

[Nathan_Jr]

Mmmph

 

Right. Yahweh, the divine real estate developer, brokering deals in the “senses realm.” Now that’s power with impact!

This is a god made in the image of man.

Sometimes, there is no hate quite like Christian love.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[penworks]

Hi Greasespotters! Today on my blog at https://charleneedge.com:

From “The Snow Story” to “The Comment”

 by Charlene L. Edge |  posted in: Writing Undertow |  

Hi subscribers! Amazingly, Undertow’s 7th birthday is this November. One way I’m celebrating is by sharing extra bonus material with you that’s related to my cult story, such as the book review below. I’ll do this until Nov. 1st. On that day, you’ll [subscribers to my blog] receive a special post offering free copies of Undertow. So, stay tuned. Meanwhile …

Today’s extra bonus

I’m very happy and humbled to share another unsolicited review of my memoir, Undertow. This one is from a former follower of The Way International named Buck Dopp. I met Buck and his wife in California many years ago when my then-husband and I were leaders for The Way. They were and still are among the kindest folks you’ll ever meet.

From “The Snow Story” to “The Comment”

A review of Charlene Edge’s memoir, Undertow

In her exciting new memoir, Undertow, Charlene Edge records her real-life roller coaster ride when a Bible fundamentalist cult, The Way International, recruited and trained her to be one of its elite leaders in the Way Corps. For the next 17 years, her major life decisions were dictated or influenced by the Way’s teachings and her fear that disloyalty would engender severe consequences.

Edge’s story details, step-by-step how the naïve freshman from Salisbury, MD who simply wants to know and serve God, is recruited by a fellow student at East Carolina University to a Way fellowship. She soon takes the Way’s Power for Abundant Living Class taught by founder and leader Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille who convinces Edge and her fellow converts that his research—by comparing ancient texts—has uncovered the inerrant and original Word of God.

Wierwille’s miracle, which Edge calls “The Snow Story” confirms her emotions and soon her life has only one major purpose: to spread Wierwille’s Word of God over the world. Friends and family warn her along the way and in time she discovers the clues—-like “The Comment”—that lead to the realization that she has made a mistake. But how can she escape?

Her writing style is generously seasoned with metaphors to complement the crisp details she is able to provide thanks to her meticulous journals and notebooks faithfully recorded during that period.

Despite the length of time covered, the book is fast paced. Edge senses when defining moments need to be zoomed in on, and when other periods can be summarized. In the middle of the story, the reader forgets he or she is reading a book and it feels more like watching reality TV.

The people in Undertow are multi-dimensional and she paints them with depth and color. The exception is her ex-husband whose deeds and misdeeds are brought into the story as needed without insight into his motivations. Edge guesses where he is coming from, but doesn’t know for sure. He’s a supporting actor, not a main character in this marriage which seems secondary to Edge’s primary relationships in her ministry work and special friendships.

Undertow is a lively story and a cautionary tale for the youth who want to search for truth and then save the world. They may end up sacrificing their time, energy and money in the process. The money can be replaced, but the time is gone forever. What glitters isn’t always gold and as Edge discovers, the Word of God may not really be the true Word of God and therefore not the Will of God either.

~ Buck Dopp, former follower of The Way International

—END—

Next time on the blog

“The Faulty Foundation of The Way International”

Thanks for reading!

Your writer on the wing,

Charlene

Edited September 23, 2023 by penworks

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, penworks said:

Friends and family warn her along the way and in time she discovers the clues—-like “The Comment”—that lead to the realization that she has made a mistake. But how can she escape?

What was the comment?

[Charity]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

What was the comment?

Penworks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was a comment another researcher sort of whispered to her during an important meeting which I think Walter Cummins had called.  The person said that vp wasn't very good with the Greek language.  I can't lay hands on my copy of the book right now, but I remember it was a very unsettling moment for Penworks to hear this about vp and things changed considerably for her concerning twi.  

[Rocky]

Could it also/rather have been Buck Dopp's close in that review,

Undertow is a lively story and a cautionary tale for the youth who want to search for truth and then save the world. They may end up sacrificing their time, energy and money in the process. The money can be replaced, but the time is gone forever. What glitters isn’t always gold and as Edge discovers, the Word of God may not really be the true Word of God and therefore not the Will of God either.

[penworks]

2 hours ago, Charity said:

Penworks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was a comment another researcher sort of whispered to her during an important meeting which I think Walter Cummins had called.  The person said that vp wasn't very good with the Greek language.  I can't lay hands on my copy of the book right now, but I remember it was a very unsettling moment for Penworks to hear this about vp and things changed considerably for her concerning twi.  

Yes, you're right, Charity. Good memory!

In the paperback, the scene is in chapter 37, "Not So Good," on page 289.

[Nathan_Jr]

He wasn't very good with Hebrew and Aramaic, either.

Either victor's god was a lousy teacher or victor was a lousy student or both..